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  1. #161

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Fairfax, VA
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    It's amusing that you still think focusing on the different forms of slavery is at all relevant the question of whether it's moral to treat another person as property.
    Given that the different forms of slavery deal with whether an individual is treated as property it would seem relevant no?

    Your argument is akin to saying "It's amusing that you still think focusing on the different forms of homicide is at all relevant the question of whether it's moral to kill another person."

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    nobody in their right mind would suggest people be treated in the way described by the book which you claim, without support, is the divinely-inspired and perfect moral guide of a supreme being.
    This objection would carry a lot more weight if you demonstrated a more consensus understanding of what was actually in that book. It doesn't seem odd to you that you are holding a lone position against all kinds of scholars (both thiest and athiest), rabbinical tradition, and historical consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    I've repeatedly provided examples from the bible where those are explicitly sanctioned.
    Well no, you provided your untrained, unexpert opinion on what they said. Unless you can demonstrate why I should accept future's reading over that of Rabbis, this is an appeal to authority fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    And I would encourage you to look back to where the slavery came from.
    Ok, let's do that. My guess given this response is that you think it somehow came from a religious movement, perhaps you have a vague sense it was the Jews who invented it or something. The problem is, that isn't historically accurate.

    Slavery's origins (as detailed in links in my last post if you had bothered to read them) come from humanity's change from hunter/gathers to sedentary, agrarian populations. It arose because agrarian food production is incredibly labor consuming, but also creates an incredible surplus. That means that for the first time it was posible from a calorie perspective to make someone else provide you with food over long periods. That fact, when combined with the rise of war as a concept (also tied to the move to sendtary, agrarian economies) created a group of people available to serve as additional labor.

    Literally every non-hunter gatherer (and a few limited examples of hunter/gather) society had slavery of some form. The Sumerians had a relatively loose definition of slave as more of a class (somewhat below natives) who were more or less free to do what they wanted, but were far more harshly punished if they broke the law. The peoples of the Indus river valley had a similar caste based arrangement. The Egyptians had something closer to a race based perpetual slavery where racial groups (the Hebrews and the Nubians being prominant examples) were treated as common labor pools to be allocated to specific projects and all food, land, water was doled out on condition of that labor. Africans and the various South/Central American cultures had similar race based perpetual slavery based primarily on prisoner of war status, or the "otherness" factor often described by sociologists.

    So how does this relate to your argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    Your statement about the religious abolitionist movement fails as a slight against secularism, and doesn't change the fact that slavery rose and thrived in a religious era.
    So did language, rights, science, morality, law, and a host of other things. Does that mean religion gets credit for those as well? Because if not, this is a form of special pleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    Since the ODN Rules don't refer to the inadmissibility of Wikipedia in any way, that's exactly what you did. Whether it was mentioned in a post 10 years ago is irrelevant.
    Nor do the ODN rules detail out every site we determine to be pornagraphic, that doesn't mean you won't get an infraction for linking to Porn Hub here. We also don't specifically detail that writing your claim on a piece of paper and posting it doesn't count as support either, we assume that most of our debaters are wise enough to know that. I understand your frustration, but it is a long standing policy and one that should be somewhat clear given that the site doesn't consider itself valid support and so shouldn't be considered as support by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    I do, and you obviously do, as well. It's funny, though, that you think anything can be gained by rationalizing the way in which you do.
    I think there is always something to be gained by looking at a subject accurately and with objectivity. I'm not sure it is a wise policy to decide how to interpret data based on what you want the answer to be. And an equally unwise idea to do so based on an argument that fails basic tests for validity. Likewise, I would be concerned if people generally aligned to my position on a subject started disagreeing with me. It would at least give me pause and an opportunity to reevaluate my argument. That it didn't is interesting.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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