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  1. #21
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If you're that ignorant of what is happening, then you need to get edumacated.
    Which of those are terrorist acts? I agree that they can all be considered violent and/or destructive and I am critical of each and every one of those actions.

    But that does not mean that any of those acts, wrong as they are, are terrorist acts nor that they are indicative of the organization in general.

    Again, I can list numerous instances of child molestation by Catholic priests but that is not enough to label The Catholic Church a pedophilia organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is pedantic argumentation, and a fallacy called Logic Chopping. Whether one labels Antifa as a group or organization makes no difference to the op. Whether it is one group with central leadership or lots of little terror cells acting in concert is irrelevant.
    When you use the criteria for SPLC in labeling a group a "hate group" then the kind of criteria that the SLPC uses becomes relevant to the discussion. If it's not based on leadership, then the criteria is indeed based on how ALL of the individual members behave. I never said that each and every one of them had to be destructive/violent for the group itself to be considered a violent (terrorist) group but there certainly has to be a significant percentage before this kind of argument can be used.

    So regardless, you do need to come up with some kind of criteria, be it based on leadership or numbers, before you can make the case that the organization as a whole qualifies as a terrorist organization.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I don't know exactly, and neither do you. But they do NOT use the criteria you invented.
    How do you know?

    I think they probably do take things such as what the leadership says and the percentage of members who actually engage in terrorist activities when deciding whether to label a group a "terrorist group". I don't know that for an absolute fact but then you don't know that they don't. So maybe they do use the criteria that I referred to (I didn't invent it).


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    According to the Politico reporting, Homeland Security has labeled Antifa a terrorist organization. That's good enough for me. You can rebut by saying Homeland Security isn't a legitimate authority, or dispute Politico's reporting, or something else, but I don't have to prove that they are right or even understand how they reached that determination.
    Actually the article does not say that Homeland Security has labeled antifa a terrorist organization (or I couldn't find where it does say that if they did). So please support that this has happened. And what you quoted in your earlier post DID NOT say that antifa was labeled a terrorist organization.

    So if we going to just take what was reported as the truth of the matter, currently antifa is not a terrorist organization. So you can't rely on an authority to make your case so you are back to having to make your own argument which means you do need to forward reasonable criteria for when a group has crossed the line into being a terrorist organization

    If you don't know what that is, then you really can't make the case that any particular group is a terrorist organization (without appealing to some authority anyway).

  2. #22
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Justification for terroristic tactics is irrelevant to the op, but would make a great topic in itself if you want to start a new thread.
    I'll agree with that. Though under that definition the Sons of Liberty are considered a terrorist organization and maybe we should stop celebrating them. How about the Bundy family and those that illegally occupied and damaged that wildlife refuge? Were they charged with terrorism?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'll agree with that. Though under that definition the Sons of Liberty are considered a terrorist organization and maybe we should stop celebrating them. How about the Bundy family and those that illegally occupied and damaged that wildlife refuge? Were they charged with terrorism?
    Just a factual insertion, this trial had the same charges used against other Domestic Terrorists including a few ecoterrorists. The Jury returned a Not Guity verdict on 6 counts.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.16429902f18a
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  5. #24
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Just a factual insertion, this trial had the same charges used against other Domestic Terrorists including a few ecoterrorists. The Jury returned a Not Guity verdict on 6 counts.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.16429902f18a
    Is that the same as the OP suggests "charged with committing a terrorist act and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism."?

    Conviction is irrelevant according to the statement.

    Therefore the Bundy's and their cohorts are domestic terrorists.
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  6. #25
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is that the same as the OP suggests "charged with committing a terrorist act and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism."?
    No, though as the article notes, these conspiracy charges are often used intentionally by DOJ in domestic terrorism trials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Conviction is irrelevant according to the statement.

    Therefore the Bundy's and their cohorts are domestic terrorists.
    Well given that conviction is the adjudication of the charges that would seem to be very relevant. By this reasoning Bill Clinton obstructed justice. Would you agree with that statement?

    I'll let Evensaul defend himself, but it is logically incoherent to say someone who is acquitted of a crime is guilty of that crime.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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  7. #26
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Time is short these days, so my posts will be seldom and erratic...

    Let me be the first to say that I HATE the term terrorism. It does not really matter if BLM, the KKK, or Antifa are terrorist groups. The terrorist label means nothing. Homeland Security can label a group terrorist, but it has no real legal bearing. Its just a label. And, in the end, who cares? The truth is that these groups are, for the most part, groups of violent people looking to start fights with other people. We can argue about BLM, as I think it has core groups within it which aren't violent and, while I may disagree with them ideologically, they simply have an agenda and it needn't be aggressive nor violent. But, antifa is just a group of thugs trying to rationalize their violent behavior. The KKK is a disgusting organization, but in recent times have tended to not incite violence. So, as repugnant as they are, our laws insist that we tolerate them peacefully.

    Without getting off into the weeds that this groups is bad or that group is worse, the matter is simple. When a group does incite violence, commit crimes, then it should be punished. Period. There is no legal definition of terrorism which applies to domestic organizations. So, wasting time debating whether this group or that group should be labeled terrorist is...uh... a waste of time.

    Per NPR
    "But according to the Justice Department and legal analysts, it's simply not possible for the government to file charges of domestic terrorism, because no such criminal law exists."
    http://www.npr.org/2017/08/14/543462676/why-the-govt-cant-bring-terrorism-charges-in-charlottesville
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  9. #27
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I'll let Evensaul defend himself, but it is logically incoherent to say someone who is acquitted of a crime is guilty of that crime.
    Doesn't mean they are innocent either. Or are you saying that because someone was acquitted that means they shouldn't have been "arrested and charged"? Regardless, guilt is beyond the scope of this thread (as is justification). The Op is concerned with who should be "arrested and charged". By definition the Bundy's and their organization are domestic terrorists as were the Sons of Liberty who perhaps we should start celebrating here in Boston now.
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  10. #28
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    There is no legal definition of terrorism which applies to domestic organizations.
    Yes, there is such a definition in the Patriot Act, as the story you linked to points out, and the FBI applies it to domestic organizations. There just isn't a provision to file criminal charges including the term "terrorist". This is a good point, and I thank you for bringing it up. Not really a problem, though. The surviving Boston Bomber was charged with not only individual acts of violence, but also conspiracy to commit those acts. There's no reason the same couldn't be done with members of Antifa committing violence against people and property. Conspiracy or accessory charges for any member involved in violent Antifa "counter-protests" would be appropriate. And your NPR article also brings up the issue of charges for depriving others of civil rights (I don't think that's likely with Antifa, though I think it should be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, wasting time debating whether this group or that group should be labeled terrorist is...uh... a waste of time.
    How is it different than labeling "hate groups" or "charitable organizations" etc? Opinions are often influenced by such labels, so if low-information people can better understand that Antifa is at minimum "a group of thugs trying to rationalize their violent behavior" or something much worse, then getting a label of terrorist group to stick has a positive benefit. And if you still stand by the position that this debate is a waste of time, maybe you can start an op of your own, eh?

    ---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which of those are terrorist acts? I agree that they can all be considered violent and/or destructive and I am critical of each and every one of those actions.
    All of them, because they fit the FBI's definition of terrorist acts.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But that does not mean that any of those acts, wrong as they are, are terrorist acts nor that they are indicative of the organization in general.

    Again, I can list numerous instances of child molestation by Catholic priests but that is not enough to label The Catholic Church a pedophilia organization.
    Beyond weak. You've said it is important what a group's leadership does. The Catholic Church has recognized and admits there is a problem with some members who do not act in accordance with church views. Has any leader or member of Antifa done so? No, quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    When you use the criteria for SPLC in labeling a group a "hate group"...
    Reread more carefully. I didn't use their criteria for anything, but merely said they don't use YOUR criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually the article does not say that Homeland Security has labeled antifa a terrorist organization (or I couldn't find where it does say that if they did).
    More quibbling. It said the group members commit acts of 'domestic terrorist violence' and "were blamed by authorities for attacks on the police, government and political institutions, along with symbols of “the capitalist system,” racism, social injustice and fascism, according to a confidential 2016 joint intelligence assessment by DHS and the FBI." A group that that commits such acts is a terrorist group. All you can offer is more pedantry about definitions, I understand, because your position is a totally lost cause.

    But hey, Mican, I'm willing to make you a bet that in the next two years Homeland Security labels Antifa a "terrorist group", and then one of us will have to concede. Oh...wait. We already did that on domestic Islamic terrorists, and you welched.

    I think I'm probably done here. You can have the last word.
    Last edited by evensaul; September 13th, 2017 at 11:11 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #29
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    All of them, because they fit the FBI's definition of terrorist acts.
    Support or retract this assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Beyond weak. You've said it is important what a group's leadership does.
    I have said that but that's not what that particular argument is about so introducing something that isn't part of the argument is a red herring.

    My arguments saying nothing more or less than one cannot judge an entire organization based on the actions of a minority of its members and I used the Catholic pedophilia scandal as an example. It's your response that's weak. My point stands. You cannot label an entire organization by the actions of a minority of its members.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Catholic Church has recognized and admits there is a problem with some members who do not act in accordance with church views. Has any leader or member of Antifa done so? No, quite the opposite.
    Support or retract this assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Reread more carefully. I didn't use their criteria for anything, but merely said they don't use YOUR criteria.
    When you refer to their criteria, even if you don't spell out what it is, then you are using it for your argument. And how do you know that they don't use my criteria (which is using what the leadership of the organization forwards as the basis for determining if it's a hate group)?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    More quibbling. It said the group members commit acts of 'domestic terrorist violence' and "were blamed by authorities for attacks on the police, government and political institutions, along with symbols of “the capitalist system,” racism, social injustice and fascism, according to a confidential 2016 joint intelligence assessment by DHS and the FBI." A group that that commits such acts is a terrorist group.
    I'm not quibbling at all. You said that the Politico article said that Homeland Security has labeled antifa a terrorist organization. Either they have done that or they have not done that. It's not up to your opinion - it's happened or it hasn't and it's not quibbling to point out that you have not shown that it did happen.

    As far as I can tell, the conclusion you forwarded is YOUR CONCLUSION and it's based on taking the actions of some members and using them to label the entire organization as "terrorists" and I've pointed out that you can't label the whole organization for the actions of some of its members. Homeland Security is apparently not using YOUR criteria.

    So YOU are saying that they are a terrorist organization based on an argument that you have created and which, I argue, uses questionable logic. That is a far cry from supporting that Homeland Security has ruled that they are a terrorist organization.

    Did Homeland Security label antifa a terrorist organization? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But hey, Mican, I'm willing to make you a bet that in the next two years Homeland Security labels Antifa a "terrorist group", and then one of us will have to concede.
    If you are saying you think that in the future Homeland security will label Antifa a "terrorist group", then you've already conceded that that has not happened yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Oh...wait. We already did that on domestic Islamic terrorists, and you welched.
    I don't know if that's true - I would have to go back and see exactly what I said back then and then decide if I want to reengage in a debate that YOU stopped responding to quite a while ago. Once a debate has ended, starting it up again is completely optional. But more to the point, who cares? Besides you, that is.
    Last edited by mican333; September 13th, 2017 at 10:50 AM.

  12. #30
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Doesn't mean they are innocent either.
    Well, actually that is what the word acquitted means. But I assume you mean that in a more objective sense, IE what would we say if we had perfect knowledge?

    Regardless, they were charged as you asked, and found Not Guilty.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    By definition the Bundy's and their organization are domestic terrorists as were the Sons of Liberty who perhaps we should start celebrating here in Boston now.
    Neither group was convicted of any crime. You can hold that "charge" equal "conviction" based on your reading of even if you want to, but that doesn't make it logically correct.

    And you didn't answer the question. Was Clinton a perjurer?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  13. #31
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, there is such a definition in the Patriot Act, as the story you linked to points out, and the FBI applies it to domestic organizations. There just isn't a provision to file criminal charges including the term "terrorist". This is a good point, and I thank you for bringing it up. Not really a problem, though. The surviving Boston Bomber was charged with not only individual acts of violence, but also conspiracy to commit those acts. There's no reason the same couldn't be done with members of Antifa committing violence against people and property. Conspiracy or accessory charges for any member involved in violent Antifa "counter-protests" would be appropriate. And your NPR article also brings up the issue of charges for depriving others of civil rights (I don't think that's likely with Antifa, though I think it should be).

    How is it different than labeling "hate groups" or "charitable organizations" etc? Opinions are often influenced by such labels, so if low-information people can better understand that Antifa is at minimum "a group of thugs trying to rationalize their violent behavior" or something much worse, then getting a label of terrorist group to stick has a positive benefit. And if you still stand by the position that this debate is a waste of time, maybe you can start an op of your own, eh?

    Being charged with a conspiracy to commit violence is an actual crime. I am not disputing that. The whole domestic terrorist thing, though, is a side-show.

    Hate group is a label of pure leftist fantasy akin to a thought crime and I do not believe it is an actual legal term (as opposed to a hate crime). A charitable organization is a legal term used for tax purposes. Let's go back to the hate group label. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, every right-wing Christian group is a hate group. So, to your point, yes, these terms can impact how the public discusses them and views them. However, that does not make it a good thing, does it?

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/us/hat...rnd/index.html
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/24...s-lawsuit.html
    Just having a religious view which labels being gay as sinful could put you on their hate watch list. Antifa is a group of thugs and law enforcement only needs to charge them for their violent actions to curb their behavior. Being arrested also influences public opinion, no? Plus, it is less likely to be hijacked by an ideological group for political or social engineering purposes.
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  14. #32
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Well, actually that is what the word acquitted means. But I assume you mean that in a more objective sense, IE what would we say if we had perfect knowledge?

    Regardless, they were charged as you asked, and found Not Guilty.
    So was OJ.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Neither group was convicted of any crime.
    Irrelevant. They meet the FBI definition and were arrested and charged for domestic terrorism (The Bundy group, according to you) which makes them a domestic terrorist group. The Sons of Liberty likewise meet the terms of the definition and should have been likely charged. I'm sure the crown would have liked to, regardless, they, too, were a domestic terrorist group. Who else falls into that definition? KKK? Black Panthers? The entire Confederacy,
    no? Any "organized" crime for sure.

    ---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Was Clinton a perjurer?
    Yes, he was not convicted because he was justified IMO. But again, the thread starter has made it clear that justification is beyond the scope of the thread and therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #33
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX;555730
    So was OJ.[COLOR="Silver"]

    That is probably one of the saddest moments in the American Legal system (as in witnessed by the huge percentage of the population-most injustice is known only locally). Lance Ito, IMHO, should have been stripped of his legal credentials very publicly.

    However, we have laws or we don't. That justice was not served, not withstanding. OJ "IS" not guilty, and should be treated as such.
    Most probably he is guilty, but that is the difference between a representative democracy with laws and anarchy.

    ---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, he was not convicted because he was justified IMO. But again, the thread starter has made it clear that justification is beyond the scope of the thread and therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
    He "was not convicted" makes it sound like your "yes" doesn't really count????

    Bill Clinton did commit perjury.

  16. #34
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Bill Clinton did commit perjury.
    But, like OJ, he was found not guilty and should be treated as such, no?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #35
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But, like OJ, he was found not guilty and should be treated as such, no?
    HUH!!!
    He most certainly was not found "not guilty". He did commit perjury, though over a topic he should have just rode out and told the truth. Many men (and women) admired his sexual prowess, he would have probably been ok to just tell the truth.

  18. #36
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    HUH!!!
    He most certainly was not found "not guilty".
    How do you come to that conclusion?
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  19. #37
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How do you come to that conclusion?
    When you swear under oath and lie, it is perjury, though what he lied about, few people care.....

  20. #38
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    When you swear under oath and lie, it is perjury, though what he lied about, few people care.....
    No, about not being found "not guilty". How do you figure?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #39
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, about not being found "not guilty". How do you figure?

    I really don't know what you are asking, could you restate it more clearly?

  22. #40
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I really don't know what you are asking, could you restate it more clearly?
    In post 35 you said "HUH!!! He [Bill Clinton] most certainly was not found "not guilty". Please explain.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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