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  1. #41
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    In post 35 you said "HUH!!! He [Bill Clinton] most certainly was not found "not guilty". Please explain.
    Where was he found "not guilty'? My understanding (though my interest is pretty limited as well...) is Bill accepted a 5 yrs suspension of his law license and a $25,000 fine in Arkansas for lying under oath, in a lawsuit brought on by the Arkansas Supreme court.

    The US Supreme Court also "suspended" him from presenting cases in that court, shortly after, and gave Bill "40 days to contest this disbarment, and he retired instead" (from Snopes.com).

    In 1999 bill was also found in contempt of court for lying under oath in the Paula jones case and was fined over $98,000. He did not contest this and paid the fine.

  2. #42
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Where was he found "not guilty'? My understanding (though my interest is pretty limited as well...) is Bill accepted a 5 yrs suspension of his law license and a $25,000 fine in Arkansas for lying under oath, in a lawsuit brought on by the Arkansas Supreme court.

    The US Supreme Court also "suspended" him from presenting cases in that court, shortly after, and gave Bill "40 days to contest this disbarment, and he retired instead" (from Snopes.com).

    In 1999 bill was also found in contempt of court for lying under oath in the Paula jones case and was fined over $98,000. He did not contest this and paid the fine.
    That snopes link is broken. Any other support?

    How about like where he was actually tried?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #43
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That snopes link is broken. Any other support?

    How about like where he was actually tried?
    He plea bargained out of the trial per my last post.

  4. #44
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    He plea bargained out of the trial per my last post.
    But he was tried somewhere, right? Was there an admission of guilt?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #45
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But he was tried somewhere, right? Was there an admission of guilt?
    The two cases I mentioned, no, no trial. That's what a plea bargain is all about. He paid the fines and gave up his law license as part of the agreement not to go a trial where he would have faced jail time (though the "jail" he would go to, is probably much nicer than where I live...).

  6. #46
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The two cases I mentioned, no, no trial. That's what a plea bargain is all about. He paid the fines and gave up his law license as part of the agreement not to go a trial where he would have faced jail time (though the "jail" he would go to, is probably much nicer than where I live...).
    There was no trial anywhere else?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #47
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    There was no trial anywhere else?
    I have no idea what other trials he may have been involved in. The two cases I cited, there was no trial. He lost his law license, paid the fines, didn't contest anything, and moved on....

    This is public record. I have said nothing new or surprising.

    Is there a point to this?

  8. #48
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have no idea what other trials he may have been involved in. The two cases I cited, there was no trial. He lost his law license, paid the fines, didn't contest anything, and moved on....

    This is public record. I have said nothing new or surprising.

    Is there a point to this?
    Yes. Something I think you might have missed that was pretty huge and hadn't happened since 1868.

    But just to be clear because you provided no support, there was no admission of guilt anywhere else, right?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #49
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes. Something I think you might have missed that was pretty huge and hadn't happened since 1868.

    But just to be clear because you provided no support, there was no admission of guilt anywhere else, right?
    Wow, that was a long time ago. Do tell. What's on your mind!!

  10. #50
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So was OJ.
    And? Are you disagreeing with what the term "acquitted" means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Irrelevant. They meet the FBI definition and were arrested and charged for domestic terrorism (The Bundy group, according to you) which makes them a domestic terrorist group.
    You'll need to support that in our legal system being charged with a crime means you are guilty of it. Simply being charged with murder, for example, doesn't make you a murderer, does it?


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But he was tried somewhere, right? Was there an admission of guilt?
    Yes, at the Arkansas Supreme Court. The Court reviewed his record and found that he had violated ethics laws in regards to perjury and suspended his license.

    From their findings:

    Mr. Clinton admitted to giving knowingly evasive and misleading discovery responses concerning his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, in violation of Judge Susan Weber Wright's discovery orders in the case of Jones v. Clinton, No. LR-C-94-290
    ...
    The formal charges of misconduct upon which this Ordec is based arose out of information referred to the Committee on Professional Conduct ("the Committee-) by the Hoaorable Susan Webber Wright, Chief United States District Judge for the Eastern District of Arkansas. Tho information pertained to William Jefferson Clinton's deposition testimony in a civil case brought by Ms. Paula Jones in which he was a defendant, Jones v. Clinton...

    On April 1. 1998, Judge Wright granted summary judgment to Mr. Clinton, but she subsequently found him in Civil contempt in a 32-page Memorandum Opinion and Order (the "Order") issued on April 12, 1999, ruling that he had "deliberately violated this Court's discovery orders and thereby undermined the integrity of the judicial system. " Order, at 31. Judge Wright found that Mr. Clinton had "responded to plaintiff's questions by giving false, misleading and evasive answers that were designed to obstruct the judicial process .... [concerning] whether he and Ms. [Monical] Lewinsky had ever been alone together and whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky.
    ...
    In the Agreed Order Mr. Clinton admits and acknowledges, and the Court, therefore, finds that:

    A. That he knowingly gave evasiv and misleading answers, in violation of Judge Wright's discovery orders, concerning his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, in an attempt to conceal from plaintiff Jones' lawyers the true facts about his improper relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, which had ended almost a year earlier.

    B. That by knowingly giving evasive and misleading answers in violation of Judge Wright's discovery orders, he engaged in conduct that is prejudicial to the administration of justice in that his
    discovery responses interfered with the conduct of the Jones case by causing the court and counsel for the parties to expend unnecessary time, effort, and resources, setting a poor example for other litigants and causing the court to issue a thirty-two page Order civily sanctioning Mr. Clinton.
    https://courts.arkansas.gov/sites/de...pc_opinions_59

    During his Impeachement he was not convicted by the Senate, though he was also not found "Not Guilty." This would be akin to a hung jury in criminal matters before a court.

    The Supreme Court (agreeing with Arkansas) disbarred Mr. Clinton in October 2001, thus also finding him guilty of perjury. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...duncancampbell


    Thus when Belthazor stated, ""HUH!!! He [Bill Clinton] most certainly was not found "not guilty"" he was correct. He was found guilty in two hearings, and no verdict was rendered in the third.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #51
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And? Are you disagreeing with what the term "acquitted" means?



    You'll need to support that in our legal system being charged with a crime means you are guilty of it. Simply being charged with murder, for example, doesn't make you a murderer, does it?




    Yes, at the Arkansas Supreme Court. The Court reviewed his record and found that he had violated ethics laws in regards to perjury and suspended his license.

    From their findings:

    Mr. Clinton admitted to giving knowingly evasive and misleading discovery responses concerning his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, in violation of Judge Susan Weber Wright's discovery orders in the case of Jones v. Clinton, No. LR-C-94-290
    ...
    The formal charges of misconduct upon which this Ordec is based arose out of information referred to the Committee on Professional Conduct ("the Committee-) by the Hoaorable Susan Webber Wright, Chief United States District Judge for the Eastern District of Arkansas. Tho information pertained to William Jefferson Clinton's deposition testimony in a civil case brought by Ms. Paula Jones in which he was a defendant, Jones v. Clinton...

    On April 1. 1998, Judge Wright granted summary judgment to Mr. Clinton, but she subsequently found him in Civil contempt in a 32-page Memorandum Opinion and Order (the "Order") issued on April 12, 1999, ruling that he had "deliberately violated this Court's discovery orders and thereby undermined the integrity of the judicial system. " Order, at 31. Judge Wright found that Mr. Clinton had "responded to plaintiff's questions by giving false, misleading and evasive answers that were designed to obstruct the judicial process .... [concerning] whether he and Ms. [Monical] Lewinsky had ever been alone together and whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky.
    ...
    In the Agreed Order Mr. Clinton admits and acknowledges, and the Court, therefore, finds that:

    A. That he knowingly gave evasiv and misleading answers, in violation of Judge Wright's discovery orders, concerning his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, in an attempt to conceal from plaintiff Jones' lawyers the true facts about his improper relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, which had ended almost a year earlier.

    B. That by knowingly giving evasive and misleading answers in violation of Judge Wright's discovery orders, he engaged in conduct that is prejudicial to the administration of justice in that his
    discovery responses interfered with the conduct of the Jones case by causing the court and counsel for the parties to expend unnecessary time, effort, and resources, setting a poor example for other litigants and causing the court to issue a thirty-two page Order civily sanctioning Mr. Clinton.
    https://courts.arkansas.gov/sites/de...pc_opinions_59

    During his Impeachement he was not convicted by the Senate, though he was also not found "Not Guilty." This would be akin to a hung jury in criminal matters before a court.

    The Supreme Court (agreeing with Arkansas) disbarred Mr. Clinton in October 2001, thus also finding him guilty of perjury. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...duncancampbell
    But no trial. Thank you for the support Balthazor failed to produce

    ---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Thus when Belthazor stated, ""HUH!!! He [Bill Clinton] most certainly was not found "not guilty"" he was correct. He was found guilty in two hearings, and no verdict was rendered in the third.
    "Five weeks later, on February 12, the Senate voted on whether to remove Clinton from office. The president was acquitted on both articles of impeachment. The prosecution needed a two-thirds majority to convict but failed to achieve even a bare majority. Rejecting the first charge of perjury, 45 Democrats and 10 Republicans voted “not guilty,” and on the charge of obstruction of justice the Senate was split 50-50."http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...nton-impeached

    ---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You'll need to support that in our legal system being charged with a crime means you are guilty of it. Simply being charged with murder, for example, doesn't make you a murderer, does it?
    I never said that. The title of the thread can now be changed to "Antifa, BLM, the Sons of Liberty, and the Bundy Group are Terrorist Organizations"?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #52
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But no trial. Thank you for the support Balthazor failed to produce[COLOR="Silver"]
    I failed to produce information about his impeachment, because I didn't discuss it!
    You (kinda) brought it up, not me...
    (As to the two cases I did cite, I would have provided links for support, but I really thought it was fairly commonly known, sorry. I should have realized, my bad...)


    But, since you seem satisfied with Squatch's support, we can move on

    Clinton admitting guilt (perjury), loosing his law license, being found in contempt of court, paying large fines, all seem more important to me than watching the US congress play politics.
    As I recall, the vote was pretty much party lines in the Senate. Also, this isn't a trial like a regular criminal trial we are used to.

    He did admit perjury.
    He was impeached (in the house of Rep's, though acquitted in the Senate {on largely party line vote-big surprise}).
    He lost his law license and paid fines because of it.

    Why does a plea bargain for a conviction, instead of a trial for a conviction, seem to matter to you so much?
    Last edited by Belthazor; September 25th, 2017 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #53
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Why does a plea bargain for a conviction, instead of a trial for a conviction, seem to matter to you so much?
    It doesn't. This was Squatch's injection.

    The gist of the OP is who and which groups should be labelled as domestic terrorist groups and that they should be charged. The vagaries of the legal system are irrelevant.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #54
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    But no trial.
    And? If someone pleads guilty there is no trial either, but they are found to be guilty. Bill Clinton plead guilty, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    "Five weeks later, on February 12, the Senate voted on whether to remove Clinton from office. The president was acquitted on both articles of impeachment. The prosecution needed a two-thirds majority to convict but failed to achieve even a bare majority. Rejecting the first charge of perjury, 45 Democrats and 10 Republicans voted “not guilty,” and on the charge of obstruction of justice the Senate was split 50-50."
    Appeal to Authority Fallacy. The unnamed History.com Staff Writer is not a legal expert, thus their use of the word acquit doesn't hold much water.

    Rather, when presented to the Senate, the vote is of a Yea/Nay variety to the question: "Shall person X be found guilty of crime Y." This is different than in criminal law, when the judge's instructions to the jury detail that they are to decide the "guilt or innocence of the accused."

    Perhaps you think this is an arcane distinction, but it isn't. When a Jury cannot decide, the case is dismissed, but can be refiled by the prosecutor (just as was the case with Mr. Clinton's trial if the House had wished). However, when a jury aqcuits a person, no refiling of charges is allowed under the Constitution (double jeopardy provision). Thus, the findings by the Senate were not an aqcuital, but simply a "failure to convict" or a hung jury in more common parlance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I never said that.
    Yes you did:

    They meet the FBI definition and were arrested and charged for domestic terrorism (The Bundy group, according to you) which makes them a domestic terrorist group.
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post555730

    Please support or retract that being charged with a crime makes you guilty of that crime.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #55
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And? If someone pleads guilty there is no trial either, but they are found to be guilty. Bill Clinton plead guilty, right?




    Appeal to Authority Fallacy. The unnamed History.com Staff Writer is not a legal expert, thus their use of the word acquit doesn't hold much water.

    Rather, when presented to the Senate, the vote is of a Yea/Nay variety to the question: "Shall person X be found guilty of crime Y." This is different than in criminal law, when the judge's instructions to the jury detail that they are to decide the "guilt or innocence of the accused."

    Perhaps you think this is an arcane distinction, but it isn't. When a Jury cannot decide, the case is dismissed, but can be refiled by the prosecutor (just as was the case with Mr. Clinton's trial if the House had wished). However, when a jury aqcuits a person, no refiling of charges is allowed under the Constitution (double jeopardy provision). Thus, the findings by the Senate were not an aqcuital, but simply a "failure to convict" or a hung jury in more common parlance.
    I'm not going to argue this anymore (I'm not conceding) as the determination of guilt or innocence is irrelevant to the OP.

    ---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Yes you did:

    They meet the FBI definition and were arrested and charged for domestic terrorism (The Bundy group, according to you) which makes them a domestic terrorist group.
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post555730

    Please support or retract that being charged with a crime makes you guilty of that crime.
    Ok, I see the problem. Being found guilty is beyond the scope of the OP which is concerned with who is labelled a domestic terrorist group.

    "Anyone who takes part in Antifa or BLM violence against people or property should be arrested and charged with committing a terrorist act and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism." from the OP which also uses the FBI definition.

    There's nothing there about their final disposition which can be varied on any number of circumstances including justification which has been deemed irrelevant by the thread starter.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #56
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, I see the problem.
    Ahh, so then you aren't arguing that the Bundy's actually are domestic terrorists then? Only that Even should also agree that the Bundy's should have been arrested and charged?

    They were, and then acquitted, meaning that the charge was incorrect, so what is your point?

    If they were arrested and charged, do you then agree that Antifa advocates should be arrested and charged for consistency's sake?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #57
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Ahh, so then you aren't arguing that the Bundy's actually are domestic terrorists then? Only that Even should also agree that the Bundy's should have been arrested and charged?

    They were, and then acquitted, meaning that the charge was incorrect, so what is your point?
    Legal adjudication is irrelevant since one possible outcome - justification - has been deemed irrelevant by the thread starter. All others must be treated equally.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #58
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Legal adjudication is irrelevant since one possible outcome - justification - has been deemed irrelevant by the thread starter. All others must be treated equally.
    You missed half that post. Given that they were, in fact, arrested and charged, do you then agree with Even that Antifa supporters should be arrested and charged?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #59
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Wow, that was a long time ago. Do tell. What's on your mind!!
    I believe he's referring to a separate "Johnson" related impeachment.
    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    When Black Lives Matter commits acts of violence against people or property during riots, it's members are committing acts of terrorism, because it is trying to reach political and social objectives through violence and intimidation.
    Would you be willing to agree that illegal search and seizures by police --which is an unlawful use of force in the futherance of a social objective-- should also be considered an act of domestic terrorism?
    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Anyone who takes part in Antifa or BLM violence against people or property should be arrested and charged with committing a terrorist act and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism.
    And if you do agree to the above, would you agree that those officers should be charged with a terrorist act or conspiracy to commit? If not, just ignore this question.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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  21. #60
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You missed half that post. Given that they were, in fact, arrested and charged, do you then agree with Even that Antifa supporters should be arrested and charged?
    According to the specifications of the thread, yes.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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