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  1. #1
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    Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or Puerto Rico without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives. https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/p...rism-2002-2005

    When Antifa uses or threatens violence in protests or counter-protests it is committing acts of domestic terrorism.

    Unlike most of the counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville and elsewhere, members of antifa have shown no qualms about using their fists, sticks or canisters of pepper spray to meet an array of right-wing antagonists whom they call a fascist threat to American democracy. As explained this week by a dozen adherents of the movement, the ascendant new right in the country requires a physical response.

    “People are starting to understand that neo-Nazis don’t care if you’re quiet, you’re peaceful,” said Emily Rose Nauert, a 20-year-old antifa member who became a symbol of the movement in April when a white nationalist leader punched her in the face during a melee near the University of California, Berkeley.

    “You need violence in order to protect nonviolence,” Ms. Nauert added. “That’s what’s very obviously necessary right now. It’s full-on war, basically.” https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/u...ef=todayspaper


    When Black Lives Matter commits acts of violence against people or property during riots, it's members are committing acts of terrorism, because it is trying to reach political and social objectives through violence and intimidation.

    Anyone who takes part in Antifa or BLM violence against people or property should be arrested and charged with committing a terrorist act and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    When Black Lives Matter commits acts of violence against people or property during riots, it's members are committing acts of terrorism, because it is trying to reach political and social objectives through violence and intimidation.
    That's not necessarily true. If someone who just likes breaking stuff shows up at a BLM protest and throws a brick through a window for the sake of breaking windows and is not trying to intimidate anyone, it's not terrorism - just vandalism. Really, an organization is a terrorist organization only if the organizations goal is to use violence to intimidate the citizens. If the leadership instructs its members to use such tactics, then it's a terrorist organization. If someone misbehaves without the BLMs leadership's consent, then it does not make BLM a terrorist organization.

    So can you show that it's actually BLM's goal to use violence to intimidate people?

    Also, is it terrorism if Antifa's target is exclusively white supremacists at a particular event? I consider terrorism to be using violence to intimidate the population in general and not specific groups that they oppose exclusively. If you want to say that White Supremacists are a "segment of the population" and therefore to intimidate them is terrorism because of that, then by that logic intimidating a single person is terrorism. If a loanshark uses intimidation against just one person to make him pay up, that would be terrorism by that logic and then "terrorism" is just another word for "intimidation" and we might as well just call it "intimidation".

    But I consider terrorism to be an act of violence meant to intimidate the whole of society or a very large potion of it. For example, 9/11 was clearly an attempt to frighten the whole of the US population. Comparing that to Antifa using violence against a relatively small number white supremacists seems pretty weak to me.
    Last edited by mican333; August 18th, 2017 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's not necessarily true. If someone who just likes breaking stuff shows up at a BLM protest and throws a brick through a window for the sake of breaking windows and is not trying to intimidate anyone, it's not terrorism - just vandalism.
    Abductive reasoning (If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.") suggests you are wrong. A person who shows up at a BLM protest, joins the protesters, and throws rocks at police or opposing demonstrators is probably BLM. And if somehow your one specific individual is not, then he isn't covered by the op.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Really, an organization is a terrorist organization only if the organizations goal is to use violence to intimidate the citizens. If the leadership instructs its members to use such tactics, then it's a terrorist organization. If someone misbehaves without the BLMs leadership's consent, then it does not make BLM a terrorist organization.
    An organization is characterized by the actions of its members, not by instructions they may or may not receive. Doesn't BLM claim that police departments and entire justice systems are racist and anti-black, despite what those organizations claim?

    BLM protests have routinely involved violence against people and property. I haven't sees BLM making any effort to police its demonstrations in order to prevent violence or expel those committing violence. Have you?

    Many KKK groups disavow white supremacy. Do you believe their words accurately represent the organization? The Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat would denounce violence, and then secretly reward families of suicide bombers. I could provide many more examples of how what "leadership" says doesn't accurately represent the true nature of an organization and its members. Actions of members are what define an organization. And BLM protesters have routinely engaged in violence against people and property.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So can you show that it's actually BLM's goal to use violence to intimidate people?
    This is a nonsense question. BLM's goal is to accomplish social and political change. The methods include violence against people and property.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Also, is it terrorism if Antifa's target is exclusively white supremacists at a particular event? I consider terrorism to be using violence to intimidate the population in general and not specific groups that they oppose exclusively. If you want to say that White Supremacists are a "segment of the population" and therefore to intimidate them is terrorism because of that, then by that logic intimidating a single person is terrorism. If a loanshark uses intimidation against just one person to make him pay up, that would be terrorism by that logic and then "terrorism" is just another word for "intimidation" and we might as well just call it "intimidation".
    You are making up your own definition and combining that with tortured logic. Pretty weak compared to how I used the official definition of terrorism as provided by the FBI (which used 18 US Code 2331), and simply applied it to Antifa.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I consider terrorism to be an act of violence meant to intimidate the whole of society or a very large potion of it.
    If someone blew up a mosque in Michiganto intimidate only American Muslims, would that not be considered a terrorist act? Or, let's go smaller. Let's say someone who hates the Amish and wants to drive them from the country went to one of their communities and slaughtered some of them, wouldn't that be considered terrorism? How about if someone bombed a Black Lives Matter protest? Wouldn't you call that an act of terrorism? And I don't see where US Code or the FBI includes size of a target in the definition.
    Last edited by evensaul; August 19th, 2017 at 12:48 PM.
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat would denounce violence, and then secretly reward families of suicide bombers.
    How do you know if it was a secret?


    Your attempt at moral equivalency requires you to side step any explanation of the moral discussion and concentrate only on the use of force. You concluded that it is not ok for one of the sides to use force. Why?
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    An organization is characterized by the actions of its members, not by instructions they may or may not receive. Doesn't BLM claim that police departments and entire justice systems are racist and anti-black, despite what those organizations claim?
    I wouldn't go that far but I will say that BLM contends that there is racial bias within the police and justice systems. But then that's not exactly a radical conclusion to reach given there's solid evidence to back that up (such as blacks being arrested for possession much more frequently despite the fact that use for blacks and whites is equal). Nor does thinking and saying that make one a terrorist.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    BLM protests have routinely involved violence against people and property. I haven't sees BLM making any effort to police its demonstrations in order to prevent violence or expel those committing violence. Have you?
    I don't know what they've done in response to whatever violence has occurred. And as far as I know, you don't know what they have or haven't done either. Maybe they've taken appropriate measures and we just don't know it. So if you are going to say that they haven't done enough, you will need to support that with something other than what appears to be ignorance of them taking appropriate activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Many KKK groups disavow white supremacy. Do you believe their words accurately represent the organization? The Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat would denounce violence, and then secretly reward families of suicide bombers. I could provide many more examples of how what "leadership" says doesn't accurately represent the true nature of an organization and its members. Actions of members are what define an organization. And BLM protesters have routinely engaged in violence against people and property.
    CONSISTENT actions is what defines an organization. If something bad happens now and then but those bad things usually do not happen, then one cannot say that BLM protesters consistently engage in violence.

    The fact is you have not shown any pattern of consistent violence. I don't know how often something bad happens, how many times per demonstrations something bad happens (if it happens one time out of fifty, then it's not a consistent pattern). I also don't know if the problems are caused by actual BLM members or outsiders or agent provocateurs (enemies of the group causing problems to make the group look bad) or how many are caused by each. And from what you've so far shown on this thread, you might not know either.

    So you will need to forward some real data before your accusations have any merit. So here are some questions.
    1. How many violent incidents have occurred at BLM protests?
    2. How frequently do problems occur at LBM protests? Every time? Half the time? Less than 10% Less than 1%
    3. Out of the problems that do occur, how many of them are known to be caused by BLM members as opposed to outsiders?
    4. Assuming problems have been confirmed as being caused by actual BLM members, how has the BLM organization reacted to their members actions?

    Until we know the answers to these questions, we don't really know whether BLM as an organization can be held responsible for whatever problems do occur.

    And even if we do learn that BLM is responsible for some of the problems, then the question to ask it:

    1. Was the violence meant to intimidate?

    If you can't show that it is, then the notion that BLM should be considered a terrorist organization is without support.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If someone blew up a mosque in Michiganto intimidate only American Muslims, would that not be considered a terrorist act? Or, let's go smaller. Let's say someone who hates the Amish and wants to drive them from the country went to one of their communities and slaughtered some of them, wouldn't that be considered terrorism? How about if someone bombed a Black Lives Matter protest? Wouldn't you call that an act of terrorism? And I don't see where US Code or the FBI includes size of a target in the definition.
    You can point to the text of the code but apparently the current interpretation seems to be limited to a large segment of the population, probably large segments like wholes of religion. So going by your example, I would say that the person who attacked Muslims and the Amish would be labeled terrorist and the person who attacked BLM would not.

    After all, the guy who ran his car into counter protesters in Charlottesville isn't facing terrorism charges and what he did would be akin to bombing a BLM. And it's certainly akin to the kind of violence that Antifa engages in. I don't think Antifa has even killed anyone. So if the person who violently attacked anti-WS protesters isn't facing terrorism charges, it stands to reason the kind of violence that Antifa engages in doesn't rise to the level of terrorism as well. For that matter, Dylan Roof is not facing terrorism charges despite attacking black parishioners at a church. So apparently when terrorism charges are appropriate is based on something other than the standards you are forwarding for charging these groups.

    And going beyond the strict letter of the law, I don't see why the kind of violence that Antifa commits against WSs or WSs commits against protesters should be subject to terrorism charges. If we are going to give additional punishment for what already is a crime, then the additional charge has to be something horrendous in its own right. So an act mean to intimidate the whole of the country or a significant population or a specific minority (racial, religious, sexual orientation) is worse than the same act committed for different reasons.

    So I don't think that the guy who attacked the protesters should face more than what he already faces and likewise I'm all for arresting individual Antifa members who break the law but they don't need to face additional punishment than whatever typically comes from whatever violation that they occurred. In other words, if you break a window, the punishment should be for vandalism. If you assault someone, the punishment should be for assault. Is there really any reason why an antifa who punches a Nazi at a rally should be treated more harshly than some guy who punches another guy at a bar over an argument? I can't think of any.

    So beyond just pointing to what some text says, if one is to argue that someone should be brought up on terrorism charges, one should show that what they did was indeed worse than just the illegal act itself.

    I mean I can point to why 9/11 is a bigger crime than just the property damage and loss of life. It was an attack against the whole of US society. And likewise bombing a religious establishment can be seen as an attack on the religion itself and all its adherents. But hitting a KKK member at a rally? One should be arrested for assault if they do that but I don't reasonably see a bigger crime than that.
    Last edited by mican333; August 21st, 2017 at 07:34 AM.

  8. #6
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO... http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...nce-fbi-242235
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO... http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...nce-fbi-242235
    On what basis are they considering their actions "terrorist"? Which specific actions has been taken by antifa members that have crossed the line from standard wrongdoing to something that is terrorist in nature.

    To be clear I am definitely, completely against antifa committing violent and destructive acts but then I'm against anyone committing such acts so I have yet to see reasoning for giving whatever illegal activities they may commit greater punishment (which I assume penalties for terrorist acts entail) than someone who commits the same act outside of antifa activities.

    I see no rationale to think that an antifa member punching a Nazi at a rally worse than a guy punching another guy at a bar.

    ----------------------------------

    That being said - I do think that antifa violence is worse than typical violence in one way. It really harms the anti-Nazi message that the vast majority of anti-Nazi protesters are forwarding. It allows for the "both sides are bad" kind of arguing that even Trump has engaged in when overall one side is clearly much worse than the other (as in Nazis vs "those who don't like Nazis"). I would not be surprised if some antifa members are agent provocateurs - people planted to cause trouble for the purpose of making anti-Nazis look bad. I can't support this suspicion but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Also, is it terrorism if Antifa's target is exclusively white supremacists at a particular event?
    Antifa routinely targets ANYONE who opposes their views. They have targeted blacks and Hispanics who oppose their view, and they have assaulted them. They have targeted and assaulted Jews and women who oppose their views. They have targeted and assaulted liberals. They have targeted anyone who is right of their particular position. They do not differentiate between "anyone who opposes us" and "white supremacists".

    I consider terrorism to be using violence to intimidate the population in general and not specific groups that they oppose exclusively.
    1) Why? By what justification is there to do so?

    2) All terrorist groups target a group of people. They don't just target "everyone" or "the population in general." What defines terrorism isn't the exclusive targeting of the victim but rather the manner in which the attack is conducted.

    The FBI defines Terrorist (terrorism) as:

    "The unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

    https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/p...rism-2002-2005

    But I consider terrorism to be an act of violence meant to intimidate the whole of society or a very large potion of it. For example, 9/11 was clearly an attempt to frighten the whole of the US population. Comparing that to Antifa using violence against a relatively small number white supremacists seems pretty weak to me.
    1) Your definition doesn't mesh with the FBI's it seems.

    2) ANTIFA doesn't merely target white supremacists.
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    "Whereas supremacist movements treat violence as their ultimate goal, antifa approach it as a necessary tactic in self-defense.

    Unlike the various supremacist movements that treat violence as valid political expression, antifa treat violence as a defensive tactic against an opposing movement that leverages violence. For antifascists, violence is self-defense, because the far-right movements constitute direct threats to their existence and safety, as well as the existence and safety of their communities.

    The hyper-awareness of such targeting is partially a result of political activism on the part of these individuals that is distinct from their antifascist work. Antifa activists aren’t solely concerned with opposing and stopping far-right movements: They are often involved in movements for racial justice, LGBTQ rights and leftist ideological campaigns for racial and economic justice through radical transformation of society inspired by communism or anarchism. These positions are identified by the far-right as political opponents who are to be eliminated by acts of extreme violence. Antifascism becomes not only a form of personal defense, but also a defense of the political activity that one is involved in. White supremacists and other far-right activists threaten progressive bookstores, organizing and social spaces, LGBTQ events and spaces, as well as places of worship that have included African-American churches, synagogues, mosques and Sikh temples."
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Cx, when Antifa uses terrorist tactics in supposed self defense, they are still terrorist tactics, making Antifa a terrorist organization. Pointing your finger at white supremacists doesn't change that fact.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  14. #11
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Cx, when Antifa uses terrorist tactics in supposed self defense, they are still terrorist tactics, making Antifa a terrorist organization.
    I'm pretty sure that there is no such thing as "terrorist tactics", as in tactics that are only used by terrorists. The act of hitting someone, killing someone, setting a fire, detonating a bomb, etc can all be performed by non-terrorists so none of those tactics can be considered "terrorist tactics" as in if one does them, they are automatically a terrorist.

    But setting that aside, it does not follow that the actions of a minority speak for the organization itself and it's a little trickier when it comes to antifa as it's questionable if it even qualifies as an organization per se. Here is a description of them that seems pretty accurate to me.

    "Antifa is short for anti-fascists. The term is used to define a broad group of people whose political beliefs lean toward the left -- often the far left -- but do not conform with the Democratic Party platform. The group doesn't have an official leader or headquarters, although groups in certain states hold regular meetings."

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/wha...rnd/index.html

    So it's kind of hard for one person's actions to speak for the whole of antifa.

    Really, for an organization to be a terrorist organization, it has be generally agreed-upon by the members or dictated by the leader of the organization that terrorist tactics will be used. If there is no such edict from the leader or agreement from the group and yet a member does something that could be considered "terrorism" one can say that the group has a terrorist in it but not that the whole group is a terrorist organization.

    If we think of groups that are unquestionably terrorist organizations (like ISIS) we can definitely see that the group as a whole has adopted terrorism as a tactic. With antifa, that does not appear to be the case.
    Last edited by mican333; September 5th, 2017 at 07:09 AM.

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    With antifa, that does not appear to be the case.
    A "group of people" that has "regular meetings" and takes coordinated actions is organized, and is therefore an organization. They even have agreed on a standard uniform of sorts, wearing mostly black and a headscarf to conceal identity. If you want to further pursue this line, then you need to prove that any group must have strong central leadership to be considered an organization.

    There is plenty of documentation on the internet about how the group, as a whole, uses violence and intimidation to achieve its goals. Whether that is directed by a single individual or the result of general consensus of its members is irrelevant.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Antifa routinely targets ANYONE who opposes their views. They have targeted blacks and Hispanics who oppose their view, and they have assaulted them. They have targeted and assaulted Jews and women who oppose their views. They have targeted and assaulted liberals. They have targeted anyone who is right of their particular position. They do not differentiate between "anyone who opposes us" and "white supremacists".
    I'd like to see the evidence for this. I'm not necessarily challenging this but I want to see some evidence for this before I respond.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    2) All terrorist groups target a group of people. They don't just target "everyone" or "the population in general." What defines terrorism isn't the exclusive targeting of the victim but rather the manner in which the attack is conducted.

    The FBI defines Terrorist (terrorism) as:

    "The unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."
    What's pertinent is "further of political or social objectives". So it does point to effecting a significant portion of the population. If a group kills one guy but aren't doing it "say something" to the larger community, then it fails to further a political/social objective and therefore would not qualify as terrorism.

    So I do recognize that they don't target "everyone" but there does have to be relatively large target such as a particular segment of the population with the intent of intimidating them.

    What you describe above as attacking anyone who's to the right of them, even liberals who aren't as left as they are, doesn't feel like a specific coherent act of intimidation of anyone in particular but more just being a bunch of A-holes to people that they don't like.

    ---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A "group of people" that has "regular meetings" and takes coordinated actions is organized, and is therefore an organization.
    But none of those "organizations" represent antifa as a whole. There are sub-groups that have meetings and I've seen no evidence that any of these sub-groups have coordinated with other sub-groups regarding illegal activity and therefore none of these sub-groups represent antifa as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    They even have agreed on a standard uniform of sorts, wearing mostly black and a headscarf to conceal identity. If you want to further pursue this line, then you need to prove that any group must have strong central leadership to be considered an organization.
    If one is to argue that X is part of a group's agenda, then they need show that it is so and that requires either the leader making that the agenda or a general consensus within the group that X is the agenda. Showing that some members have pursued X does not show that the group as a whole has X as its agenda.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There is plenty of documentation on the internet about how the group, as a whole, uses violence and intimidation to achieve its goals.
    I would say that there's evidence that some individual members have used violence. But if you are going to say that this reflects on the group as a whole, then you will need to support that.
    Last edited by mican333; September 5th, 2017 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that there is no such thing as "terrorist tactics", as in tactics that are only used by terrorists. The act of hitting someone, killing someone, setting a fire, detonating a bomb, etc can all be performed by non-terrorists so none of those tactics can be considered "terrorist tactics" as in if one does them, they are automatically a terrorist.
    This is a straw man argument. No one claims that the tactics are exclusively used by terrorists. They are tactics used in the terroristic (violence and intimidation) pursuit of social and political change. Homeland security uses a similar phrase "domestic terrorist violence" to describe Antifa activities, in the Politico storied linked to above.

    I think I've shown well enough that Antifa is an organization. Your most recent post merely seeks the form and degree of that organization.

    The fact that the group as a whole wears a black uniform, wears scarves to conceal identity to avoid prosecution, and assembles as a group makes the violence reflect on the group as a whole. Those who show up at Antifa events dressed in the Antifa uniform, but who commit no violence, could quite possibly be charged as criminal accessories or even criminal conspirators, rather than as principals. The difference in fact and degree would simply change the criminal charge, not eliminate their guilt.
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think I've shown well enough that Antifa is an organization. Your most recent post merely seeks the form and degree of that organization.
    Nope. A group is either an organization or it is not. And what you showed is that there are organizations within antifa, not that antifa is an organization.

    Within any large number of people, there can be organizations but that does not make the whole an organization. There are organizations made up of only men but that does not make "men" an organization. I understand that antifa members have a lot more in common with each other than "men" do but it doesn't change the fact that a certain level of commonality does not automatically make a group an organization, even if within the group there are organizations (just like a men's group does not make men an organization)

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The fact that the group as a whole wears a black uniform, wears scarves to conceal identity to avoid prosecution, and assembles as a group makes the violence reflect on the group as a whole.
    No it doesn't. You can't take the things that the group have in common and use that to say other things that certain people in the group does reflect on the group as a whole.

    If you want to say X represents the group as a whole then you have to show that the entire organization advocates X. You've shown that the black uniforms is pretty ubiquitous (maybe you haven't supported that but since I have the same impression I won't challenge that assertion) but that doesn't mean that anything else in particular is likewise ubiquitous.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Those who show up at Antifa events dressed in the Antifa uniform, but who commit no violence, could quite possibly be charged as criminal accessories or even criminal conspirators, rather than as principals. The difference in fact and degree would simply change the criminal charge, not eliminate their guilt.
    Sure. If one is at the protest and is seen as facilitating the illegal activity, then it's not unreasonable to charge them as an accessory to a crime. But then what about all of the antifa members who weren't at the protest (which would be the majority at any given protest)? I see no reason to hold them culpable for what happened at the protest. And if what happened at the protest rises to the level of terrorism, then charge the wrongdoers with that crime. But that shouldn't reflect on those antifa members who weren't involved.
    Last edited by mican333; September 5th, 2017 at 09:39 AM.

  19. #16
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Cx, when Antifa uses terrorist tactics in supposed self defense, they are still terrorist tactics, making Antifa a terrorist organization. Pointing your finger at white supremacists doesn't change that fact.
    You're saying there isn't a time when terrorist tactics are justified? Wasn't that the justification the right used for torture?
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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Justification for terroristic tactics is irrelevant to the op, but would make a great topic in itself if you want to start a new thread.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nope. A group is either an organization or it is not...
    I don't much care whether you categorize Antifa as an organization or just a group. "Antifa is a terrorist group" works fine for me. And to be a member of Antifa, one has to make a choice. It is voluntary membership, unlike the group "men". So every member of Antifa has made a conscious decision to join a group committing terrorist acts, even if that member sits quietly on the sidelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you want to say X represents the group as a whole then you have to show that the entire organization advocates X.
    First, notice how you use "organization" and "group" to mean the same thing? There isn't really any difference in their meaning when referring to Antifa, as you have proven above.

    The Southern Poverty Law Center has no problem classifying over 900 groups as "Hate Groups", despite being unable to verify that every member of each group actively hates or advocates hate. https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map And our Department of Homeland Security classifies groups as being terrorist without any apparent evidence that every group member commits or advocates terrorist acts. So when you claim that I "have to show that the entire organization advocates X" as necessary to classify Antifa as a terrorist group, you are not following accepted norms of group classification. The burden is on you to explain why Antifa deserves its own special set of rules for classification.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I don't much care whether you categorize Antifa as an organization or just a group. "Antifa is a terrorist group" works fine for me. And to be a member of Antifa, one has to make a choice. It is voluntary membership, unlike the group "men". So every member of Antifa has made a conscious decision to join a group committing terrorist acts, even if that member sits quietly on the sidelines.
    But you have not shown that the group itself is committing terrorist acts. In fact, I'm unaware of any particular terrorist act that Antifa has committed so if I were to join, I would not be joining a group that has committed any terrorist acts that I know of. I am aware that some individual members have committed some destructive acts (which I'm against) but then that doesn't mean that they represent the whole group.

    And likewise I am aware that some Catholic priests have molested children. So if I were to join the church, would I intentionally be joining a pedophilia group? Of course not.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First, notice how you use "organization" and "group" to mean the same thing? There isn't really any difference in their meaning when referring to Antifa, as you have proven above.
    Nope. An "organization" is a sub-set of a "group" and since in the sentence I was directly referring to an organization, the context of the sentence means that I was referring to a specific kind of group.

    In other word if I said "Since poison kills all humans, John should not drink poison" I am not saying that "John" and "all humans" are the same thing. John is a human but not all humans are John. Likewise an organization is a group but not all groups are organizations.

    So I can make arguments about groups that will apply to organizations but that does not mean that I am saying that all groups are organizations or that they are the same thing in every way.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Southern Poverty Law Center has no problem classifying over 900 groups as "Hate Groups", despite being unable to verify that every member of each group actively hates or advocates hate. https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map And our Department of Homeland Security classifies groups as being terrorist without any apparent evidence that every group member commits or advocates terrorist acts.
    Okay. But then what IS the criteria for the SPLC and Homeland security use to say that an organization has crossed the line from having some members engage in an activity to the activity being something that the organization advocates?

    If it is indeed "a few members of the group engage in hateful activity", then you may have a point. But I very much doubt the standard is that low. I'm guessing, at least in the case with the SPLC, that they are primarily basing it on direct statements by the leadership of the organization and that probably goes for terrorist organizations as well (as in the leadership has directly stated that its members should engage in terrorism). Given that antifa has no leaders, it's probably impossible to reach that standard.

    So again, you need to establish a valid criteria for when the activities of the members (or the statements coming from those who represent the organization in general) do indeed represent the organization as a whole and then show that antifa has met that criteria to successfully argue that antifa can be classified as an organization that generally engages in advocates it.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So when you claim that I "have to show that the entire organization advocates X" as necessary to classify Antifa as a terrorist group, you are not following accepted norms of group classification. The burden is on you to explain why Antifa deserves its own special set of rules for classification.
    No, the burden is on you to show that Antifa meets the criteria that other groups have met when they have been labeled "hate groups" or "Terrrorist organizations" (or some other reasonable standard of qualification).

    It's your thread and your OP so the original burden is yours.
    Last edited by mican333; September 10th, 2017 at 06:35 AM.

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    Re: Antifa and BLM are Terrorist Organizations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But you have not shown that the group itself is committing terrorist acts. In fact, I'm unaware of any particular terrorist act that Antifa has committed...
    If you're that ignorant of what is happening, then you need to get edumacated.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unm...eft/index.html
    "Violence and property destruction lead to more than 200 arrests on inauguration day."
    "Berkeley police haven't seen this type of destruction since the 1960's."
    "It's the violence that's gotten them attention"
    "It was the Antifa movement that caused Berkeley to cancel speeches..."
    "Violence is a necessary part of their message..."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-in-berkeley/
    Their faces hidden behind black bandannas and hoodies, about 100 anarchists and antifa— “anti-fascist” — members barreled into a protest Sunday afternoon in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park.

    Jumping over plastic and concrete barriers, the group melted into a larger crowd of around 2,000 that had marched peacefully throughout the sunny afternoon for a “Rally Against Hate” gathering.

    Shortly after, violence began to flare. A pepper-spray-wielding Trump supporter was smacked to the ground with homemade shields. Another was attacked by five black-clad antifa members, each windmilling kicks and punches into a man desperately trying to protect himself.

    ...In February, 150 similarly black-clad agitators caused $100,000 worth of damage when they smashed through Berkeley protesting a University of California at Berkeley speech by right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos. Portland, Ore., has been the scene of street battles between antifa members and white nationalists this summer. White nationalist Richard Spencer was sucker-punched by a protester in a January video that went viral. And Inauguration Day 2017 in Washington, D.C., was marked by violence when masked protesters burned vehicles, smashed windows and clashed with police, leading to 231 arrests.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...t-left/534192/
    The violence is not directed only at avowed racists like Spencer: In June of last year, demonstrators—at least some of whom were associated with antifa—punched and threw eggs at people exiting a Trump rally in San Jose, California. An article in It’s Going Down celebrated the “righteous beatings.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/u...far-right.html
    Unlike most of the counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville and elsewhere, members of antifa have shown no qualms about using their fists, sticks or canisters of pepper spray to meet an array of right-wing antagonists whom they call a fascist threat to American democracy. As explained this week by a dozen adherents of the movement, the ascendant new right in the country requires a physical response.

    “People are starting to understand that neo-Nazis don’t care if you’re quiet, you’re peaceful,” said Emily Rose Nauert, a 20-year-old antifa member who became a symbol of the movement in April when a white nationalist leader punched her in the face during a melee near the University of California, Berkeley.

    “You need violence in order to protect nonviolence,” Ms. Nauert added. “That’s what’s very obviously necessary right now. It’s full-on war, basically.”

    http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/07/...t-charges-set/
    Yvette Felarca, 47, faces charges of inciting and participating in a riot and assault likely to cause great bodily injury,

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nope. An "organization" is a sub-set of a "group" and since in the sentence I was directly referring to an organization, the context of the sentence means that I was referring to a specific kind of group.

    In other word if I said "Since poison kills all humans, John should not drink poison" I am not saying that "John" and "all humans" are the same thing. John is a human but not all humans are John. Likewise an organization is a group but not all groups are organizations.

    So I can make arguments about groups that will apply to organizations but that does not mean that I am saying that all groups are organizations or that they are the same thing in every way.
    This is pedantic argumentation, and a fallacy called Logic Chopping. Whether one labels Antifa as a group or organization makes no difference to the op. Whether it is one group with central leadership or lots of little terror cells acting in concert is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay. But then what IS the criteria for the SPLC and Homeland security use
    I don't know exactly, and neither do you. But they do NOT use the criteria you invented.

    According to the Politico reporting, Homeland Security has labeled Antifa a terrorist organization. That's good enough for me. You can rebut by saying Homeland Security isn't a legitimate authority, or dispute Politico's reporting, or something else, but I don't have to prove that they are right or even understand how they reached that determination.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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