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  1. #21
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Huh???
    If you wrote something and later wish you had said it differently or not at all, please just say you "effed up" or some such and we can move on. This "gotcha" business dumb.
    Man up dude...
    No. I explained that I was referring to two different things. And whether I "effed up" or not is completely irrelevant to a debate about the topic at hand. So either of us saying anything further on this is a waste of time.

    So let's move on.

    I'll repeat my last comment that directly addresses what the debate is about.

    And as I said, whether a human fetus has the right to life and therefore there's a concern that overrides a woman's right to privacy, seems to be a matter of opinion and I don't see how either side can convince the other. So ultimately this debate leads to an impasse. If you know of a way to break the impasse, let me know.

    So assuming we are still debating the abortion issue, we can move on and get back to the topic at hand.

  2. #22
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No. I explained that I was referring to two different things. And whether I "effed up" or not is completely irrelevant to a debate about the topic at hand. So either of us saying anything further on this is a waste of time.

    So let's move on.

    I'll repeat my last comment that directly addresses what the debate is about.

    And as I said, whether a human fetus has the right to life and therefore there's a concern that overrides a woman's right to privacy, seems to be a matter of opinion and I don't see how either side can convince the other. So ultimately this debate leads to an impasse. If you know of a way to break the impasse, let me know.

    So assuming we are still debating the abortion issue, we can move on and get back to the topic at hand.
    Have you ever admitted you were wrong or made a mistake in a debate or ever? Man up dude...

    Is this debate about the "fetus" (human/individual/little life form/unborn human/viable tissue mass/baby/whatever we ALL ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) being a life, or is it about the ability of the MOTHER to kill, I mean of course "abort" her unborn "child/viable tissue mass/little human/baby/unborn human/whatever the hell we ALL are/were" because it is an "inconvenience " to her?

    You have said it two ways. Please let us be clear so we can move forward.

  3. #23
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Have you ever admitted you were wrong or made a mistake in a debate or ever? Man up dude...
    Yes I have admitted to making mistakes. But I don't think I did in this instance. And even if I did, admitting it or refusing to admit it has no bearing on the debate at hand and therefore this is just a waste of time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Is this debate about the "fetus" (human/individual/little life form/unborn human/viable tissue mass/baby/whatever we ALL ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) being a life, or is it about the ability of the MOTHER to kill, I mean of course "abort" her unborn "child/viable tissue mass/little human/baby/unborn human/whatever the hell we ALL are/were" because it is an "inconvenience " to her?

    You have said it two ways. Please let us be clear so we can move forward.
    It's about whether fetus has the right to life.

    And as I've said - whether the fetus has the right to life seems to be a matter of opinion and therefore both sides of this question will always end up at an impasse.

    There is my argument regarding the right to life for the unborn. You can now move forward.

  4. #24
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes I have admitted to making mistakes. But I don't think I did in this instance. And even if I did, admitting it or refusing to admit it has no bearing on the debate at hand and therefore this is just a waste of time.




    It's about whether fetus has the right to life.

    And as I've said - whether the fetus has the right to life seems to be a matter of opinion and therefore both sides of this question will always end up at an impasse.

    There is my argument regarding the right to life for the unborn. You can now move forward.
    Is the "fetus" human?

  5. #25
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Is the "fetus" human?
    It's a human fetus so if that's what you mean, the answer is "yes". If you mean something else, you need to be more clear.

  6. #26
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's a human fetus so if that's what you mean, the answer is "yes". If you mean something else, you need to be more clear.
    So it's human. It's alive. It's growing. It has no say in its conception. It has no say at all really about ANYTHING! It only tries to live, like ALL other humans before it. Doing the same things ALL other humans before it did.

    That it might "inconvenience" its mother for some months, that made the choice to conceive it, and now regrets it, is no reason to kill it.
    (You are aware that many women that have killed their "fetus" deeply regret it. I know this from first hand experience...)

    It's kinda like the death penalty/capitol punishment, but the "fetus" did nothing wrong............

  7. #27
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So it's human. It's alive. It's growing. It has no say in its conception. It has no say at all really about ANYTHING! It only tries to live, like ALL other humans before it. Doing the same things ALL other humans before it did.
    But that doesn't prove that it has the right to life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    That it might "inconvenience" its mother for some months, that made the choice to conceive it, and now regrets it, is no reason to kill it.
    (You are aware that many women that have killed their "fetus" deeply regret it. I know this from first hand experience...)
    I thought you said that the only issue in the debate is whether the fetus has the right to life. I don't see how any of this supports the notion that the fetus has the right to life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It's kinda like the death penalty/capitol punishment, but the "fetus" did nothing wrong............
    Doing nothing wrong does not give one the right to life. There are many things that do nothing wrong that no one argues should have the right to life.

  8. #28
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But that doesn't prove that it has the right to life.

    Dude, it's already alive by the mothers choice!!
    By what "right" can someone kill it?

    How come if a person kills a pregnant woman that person can get charged with TWO murders/killings if the "fetus" isn't a "person" (alive/human/baby viable tissue mass/etc.....)?????

    Why do you have a "right" to live?
    Or do you???

  9. #29
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Dude, it's already alive by the mothers choice!!
    Right. But I don't see how that gives it the right to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    By what right can someone kill it?
    Do you mean what legal right does someone have? It's due to the right to privacy - as in it's a private choice that there is no valid legal rationale to interfere with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Why do you have a right to live?
    I have the legal right to life because so many people agree that I have the right to life that such a thing is codified in our laws.

  10. #30
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I have the legal right to life because so many people agree that I have the right to life that such a thing is codified in our laws.

    Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd no,... a BIG "no'er" at that.

    This was definitely not decided by popular vote! Unless my history totally fails me Roe vs Wade was kinda how it happened.
    Look, this is the first time I have ever argued a pro life position, but please take another shot at this one, cause I need a different response to work with.

    How come when you are "born" suddenly your life "matters"?
    In fact, "when are you born"?
    Is it when the head comes out? The shoulders? The feet? When the cord is cut?

    This talk of "fetus" is stupid! (I'm sorry for the seemingly inflammatory "stupid", I just can't think of a better term at the moment. I don't mean at all, that you are stupid). It is a "phase" of human development that we "all" have gone thru. I don't see this phase as any different that "toddler, senior citizen, mid life, teenage, etc.....

    A fetus is human. It is alive. It's NOT semantics. If it is not killed by the mother choice, it will most likely grow into adulthood and the mother will generally not suffer ill affects.

    This privacy issue you speak of is the ability of the mother to discuss "killing this human "fetus" at the discretion of only the mother for any or no reason at all.

    AND, once again, not ALL medical procedures are available to we in the US. I personally know someone who had to go to Mexico for a surgery because they wouldn't perform it here in the US.
    (as an aside, after she got back to the US, there were complications and she almost died. She had to go back to Mexico for an emergency surgery to save her life because nobody here would operate on her since it was originally not an approved surgery, they would then become responsible for any future complications).

    "Privacy vs a innocent human being killed out of a whim"

    Hmmmm......

  11. #31
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd no,... a BIG "no'er" at that.

    This was definitely not decided by popular vote! Unless my history totally fails me Roe vs Wade was kinda how it happened.
    The question I was responding to was not about Roe or even abortion. Here is the question I was responding to:

    "Why do you have a right to live?"

    Annnnnnnnnnd my answer is pretty much correct. The legal right to life for born human beings like me come from the general moral consensus that born people have the right to life. While there may not have been a vote (and I never said there was one), the laws that everyone agrees upon are based on the morals of the people - we generally have the laws we want because we want them and we want the lives of born people to be protected.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look, this is the first time I have ever argued a pro life position, but please take another shot at this one, cause I need a different response to work with.

    How come when you are "born" suddenly your life "matters"?
    In fact, "when are you born"?
    Is it when the head comes out? The shoulders? The feet? When the cord is cut?
    Those are questions, not arguments. I was under the impression that you were going to provide an argument that supports that the unborn has the right to life. Do you have an argument to present? If so, let's hear it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This talk of "fetus" is stupid! (I'm sorry for the seemingly inflammatory "stupid", I just can't think of a better term at the moment. I don't mean at all, that you are stupid). It is a "phase" of human development that we "all" have gone thru. I don't see this phase as any different that "toddler, senior citizen, mid life, teenage, etc.....
    But if we are going to discuss just the unborn, we need a word that refers only to the unborn. You said I can use whatever word I want and "fetus" seems to be the one that best suits the unborn.

    If you categorically refuse to discuss the unborn as a separate thing from the born, then debating the issue is going to be very hard.

    So again, you said I could choose the word to use to describe the unborn and I chose the very, very common term "fetus". I see no good reason to use a different term.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A fetus is human. It is alive. It's NOT semantics. If it is not killed by the mother choice, it will most likely grow into adulthood and the mother will generally not suffer ill affects.
    Okay. But this does not prove that the unborn should have the legal right to life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This privacy issue you speak of is the ability of the mother to discuss "killing this human "fetus" at the discretion of only the mother for any or no reason at all.
    Or more to the point, the reason is private and therefore is not anyone else' concern.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    AND, once again, not ALL medical procedures are available to we in the US. I personally know someone who had to go to Mexico for a surgery because they wouldn't perform it here in the US.
    (as an aside, after she got back to the US, there were complications and she almost died. She had to go back to Mexico for an emergency surgery to save her life because nobody here would operate on her since it was originally not an approved surgery, they would then become responsible for any future complications).
    Right. Some medical procedures are illegal in the US so no doctor can legally perform them. Abortion is not one of those procedures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    "Privacy vs a innocent human being killed out of a whim"

    Hmmmm......
    The right to privacy versus the right to life of the fetus.

  12. #32
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The right to privacy versus the right to life of the fetus.
    Yup! That's it.
    I can't continue this conversation nor do I see a need to. It is too personal to me and too obvious your "value" of human life is too different than mine.

    So, no I will not change your mind. I hope other people that might read this though, might think long and hard about their own choice in this "matter".
    I have enjoyed talking with you Mican. I hope you have a great evening.

    And in this case, I do hope the Christian God lives, and these killed (aborted) people that never had the chance you and I did at life, may yet get to live...

  13. #33
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Yup! That's it.
    I can't continue this conversation nor do I see a need to. It is too personal to me and too obvious your "value" of human life is too different than mine.
    Actually, my position here is not that abortion should or should not be legal but that the debate on the issue will always wind up at an impasse. I'm pretty sure I've never actually argued that abortion should (or should not) remain legal in our debate. I've explained why it's legal but never said there is not a better reason to outlaw it.

    There is no way that I know of to get either side to agree with the other regarding whether the fetus has the right to life Since the primary premise regarding the right to life for the fetus is rooted in opinion, there is no objective fact averrable to prove one side right and the other side wrong.

    We've correctly identified the primary issue but have not found a way to resolve it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have enjoyed talking with you Mican. I hope you have a great evening.
    Thanks! You have a great evening too! It's been fun (for the most part).

  14. #34
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    I desire to ask you something. In your opinion, does the unborn have a mother?

  15. #35
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
    I desire to ask you something. In your opinion, does the unborn have a mother?
    Well, this is really just a matter of semantics. Do we consider someone to be a "mother" once they get pregnant or do we consider someone a "mother" after they've had a baby.

    And interestingly, a niece of mine recently gave birth. And her family heard that she was pregnant, people said "She's going to be a mother" and not "She's now a mother". So in common language, "mother" is reserved for someone after they've given birth, so based on that, I would say "no" to your question.

    Now, I do acknowledge that in certain contexts "mother" is applied to a woman who is pregnant - like if she sees a doctor regarding her pregnancy, she will be referred to as the mother in regards to the unborn. But in common colloquialism, "Mother" is reserved for a woman after she's given birth.

  16. #36
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, this is really just a matter of semantics. Do we consider someone to be a "mother" once they get pregnant or do we consider someone a "mother" after they've had a baby.

    And interestingly, a niece of mine recently gave birth. And her family heard that she was pregnant, people said "She's going to be a mother" and not "She's now a mother". So in common language, "mother" is reserved for someone after they've given birth, so based on that, I would say "no" to your question.

    Now, I do acknowledge that in certain contexts "mother" is applied to a woman who is pregnant - like if she sees a doctor regarding her pregnancy, she will be referred to as the mother in regards to the unborn. But in common colloquialism, "Mother" is reserved for a woman after she's given birth.
    Mican, just a quick note at the moment.
    I didn't expect my emotional response to your posts as I have been kinda pro-choice basically most of my life. Your points just sooooooooo lack empathy for a human at a "life stage" that pretty much all humans have had to live thru. Being a "fetus" is really no different than ANY other stage of human life! You are conceived and then move thru all the stages of life till you die.

    Since I can't seem to get this subject out of my mind, I will try to put up a coherent response shortly, and then perhaps I can move on.

  17. #37
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Your points just sooooooooo lack empathy for a human at a "life stage" that pretty much all humans have had to live thru.
    Logical arguments are not suppose to have empathy. If you are inserting emotion into your argument, that detracts from whether it is logically valid or true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Being a "fetus" is really no different than ANY other stage of human life! You are conceived and then move thru all the stages of life till you die.
    But then an unfertilized egg is an even earlier stage of life and no one particularly cares whether it lives or dies. So for some reason, the moment the egg is fertilized, many people think that that is a significant step to grant the egg the legal right to life.

    And I'm not saying that those who think that are wrong (I am not actually arguing for either side of the abortion controversy) but just that their position on the significance of fertilization is subjective, just the same as those who don't think fertilization is significant enough to warrant right to life. And of course some people pick different milestones for when we should grant a legal right to life. There's fertilization, heartbeat, second trimester, third trimester, being viable, and of course, being born.

    Which one a person picks as the one where there is a significant enough concern for the fetus to override a woman's right to privacy seems to be just up to the person.

    So as I've said, people can offer their differing OPINIONS on the matter but I see no way for anyone to prove that their position is correct in some kind of objective sense and therefore can't really change another's mind. So ultimately people just have to agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Since I can't seem to get this subject out of my mind, I will try to put up a coherent response shortly, and then perhaps I can move on.
    Okay. But the challenge is to have your argument not be rooted in your own opinion. I know your opinion already and just telling me it what it is again doesn't really get us anywhere.

  18. #38
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Logical arguments are not suppose to have empathy. If you are inserting emotion into your argument, that detracts from whether it is logically valid or true.



    But then an unfertilized egg is an even earlier stage of life and no one particularly cares whether it lives or dies. So for some reason, the moment the egg is fertilized, many people think that that is a significant step to grant the egg the legal right to life.

    And I'm not saying that those who think that are wrong (I am not actually arguing for either side of the abortion controversy) but just that their position on the significance of fertilization is subjective, just the same as those who don't think fertilization is significant enough to warrant right to life. And of course some people pick different milestones for when we should grant a legal right to life. There's fertilization, heartbeat, second trimester, third trimester, being viable, and of course, being born.

    Which one a person picks as the one where there is a significant enough concern for the fetus to override a woman's right to privacy seems to be just up to the person.

    So as I've said, people can offer their differing OPINIONS on the matter but I see no way for anyone to prove that their position is correct in some kind of objective sense and therefore can't really change another's mind. So ultimately people just have to agree to disagree.



    Okay. But the challenge is to have your argument not be rooted in your own opinion. I know your opinion already and just telling me it what it is again doesn't really get us anywhere.

    This "right to privacy" you are so fond of, seems nothing more than the "current legal" ability of a mother/pregnant woman/whatever, to discuss killing her own "fetus"/baby/human life with her doctor for any reason or no reason.

    ---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So as I've said, people can offer their differing OPINIONS on the matter but I see no way for anyone to prove that their position is correct in some kind of objective sense and therefore can't really change another's mind. So ultimately people just have to agree to disagree.
    That your mind is closed on the subject, hardly speaks to other people on the may think on this (or any) matter.

    Your position is, no human has a right to life unless the mother agrees. Nonsense!

    Or you really need to explain this "right to privacy" much better, cause at the moment, it kills a human (fetus) for no reason at all.

  19. #39
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This "right to privacy" you are so fond of, seems nothing more than the "current legal" ability of a mother/pregnant woman/whatever, to discuss killing her own "fetus"/baby/human life with her doctor for any reason or no reason.
    Right. It allows a woman to discuss medical procedures with her doctor without government interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    That your mind is closed on the subject, hardly speaks to other people on the may think on this (or any) matter.
    That is just my position in the abortion debate. Sure, others may disagree and I actually welcome someone presenting an argument showing that my position is incorrect. If THAT happens, then we have something to debate. So PLEASE, if you can, make an argument showing me that it's not an "agree to disagree" issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Your position is, no human has a right to life unless the mother agrees.
    No it's not. It doesn't help when you mistate my position

    Or you really need to explain this "right to privacy" much better, cause at the moment, it kills a human (fetus) for no reason at all.[/QUOTE]

    "The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. It requires governmental searches and seizures to be conducted only upon issuance of a warrant, judicially sanctioned by probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth...s_Constitution

    Do you disagree that we have such a right? I think not.

    YOUR position is (or should be) that while we do have the right to privacy, there is a more important concern that overrides it - that the fetus should have the legal right to life.

    So that's it. IF the fetus has the legal right to life, then while the mother's right to privacy is important, there is a more important concern that overrides it. And if the fetus does not have the legal right to life, then there's no reason to infringe on the mother's right to privacy.

    So again, it just comes down to whether the fetus should have the legal right to life.
    Last edited by mican333; September 20th, 2017 at 03:18 AM.

  20. #40
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Right. It allows a woman to discuss medical procedures with her doctor without government interference.
    In this case the woman is not discussing her health (as at the moment I am only discussing abortion on a whim), she is discussing killing her fetus/unborn child/very small human. The doctor ONLY discusses the mechanics of the killing, not whether she should or not. He will tell her killing the fetus this way can hurt her emotionally as well as physically.

    The gov't is charged with protecting innocent life.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No it's not. It doesn't help when you mistate my position
    I did not "miststate" your position. I restated it, with it's logical conclusion.[COLOR="Silver"]

    ---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

    ---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Do you disagree that we have such a right? I think not.

    YOUR position is (or should be) that while we do have the right to privacy, there is a more important concern that overrides it - that the fetus should have the legal right to life.

    I disagree the 4th applies to this case.

    And your second point is kinda bassakwards. Human life comes first and foremost in legal precedent in any other case. Why should "privacy", in THIS case, be seen more important than a human life?

    ---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So again, it just comes down to whether the fetus should have the legal right to life.
    I think I said that somewhere in this thread..........

    So lets look at the facts:

    1. A pregnant woman is "pregnant with a human".
    2. This human has been shown to clearly have a right to life in legal precedent in other circumstances (as in killing a pregnant woman is killing two people when the murderer is charged)!!
    3. Virtually every human ever has to go thru the stage of being a fetus. It's is just a normal stage of human life. You don't suddenly become a human just because you have gone down the birth canal. It is no different than any other stage of human life. You are conceived, live and grow till you die.
    4. So again, I ask why should this fetus right to life be trumped by the MOTHERS wishes to kill it. The default position in American law normally is "life comes first", why is this case so special that life can be casually discarded.
    (yes, I know abortion (the killing of an innocent human) is currently legal, you don't need to say it again.........that doesn't make it an "ought to be")
    5. Show me any legal precedent where some ones "privacy" required an innocent human to be killed.

    So your argument is:
    1. that a woman has a right to discuss killing this human with her doctor and call it "privacy". Though her only health concerns in this case are, she could get hurt while the doctor is killing the fetus/human, emotionally and/or physically. And the emotional hurt can last decades and/or not show for decades. This is a decision that can not be undone!



    (I notice you are calling the "pregnant woman " "mother" here
    (Kinda goes against your argument with PGA2 doesn't it?)

 

 
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