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  1. #1
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    Any prevalent American social issue

    Let's start with abortion. I am a christian and a conservative and i do believe killing babies is a bad thing.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by ComeToTheRight View Post
    Let's start with abortion. I am a christian and a conservative and i do believe killing babies is a bad thing.
    The real question around abortion is not whether terminating pregnancies is a bad thing, but whether anyone has rights over a woman's bodily autonomy.

    Here's a scenario: There's a 4yr old child with a very specific disease requiring his mother to donate one of her kidneys. The child will die without his mother's kidney. Does the mother absolutely have to donate her kidney? No. Can the mother be forced to donate her kidney? No.
    Should she be forced to donate her kidney?

  3. #3
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    The real question around abortion is not whether terminating pregnancies is a bad thing, but whether anyone has rights over a woman's bodily autonomy.

    Really????
    That is pretty simple (from just a "current legal" standpoint mind you.

    No.

    The gov't limits what anyone can do with their body already (not saying I personally agree).

    I thought the question of abortion had more to do with a body that isn't the "woman's body", but another "individual" entirely. The woman's "body" is just keeping this other "individual" alive until it can "support" itself. Does this "individual" have rights is really the question at hand.
    The whole " a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body" argument has no support that I have seen, though, admittedly I rarely discuss this subject because of the venom that usually seems to appear on both sides.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    That is pretty simple (from just a "current legal" standpoint mind you). No.
    Exactly, and that's the point. If we're to grant the same rights to the fetus as to the 4yr old child, then the fetus doesn't have the right to use her body without her consent, just as the 4yr old doesn't have the right to the mother's kidney. By arguing against the right to abort, pro-lifers are effectively arguing for special rights being granted to fetuses which are not currently granted to actual persons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I thought the question of abortion had more to do with a body that isn't the "woman's body", but another "individual" entirely. The woman's "body" is just keeping this other "individual" alive until it can "support" itself.
    The mother's kidney is the only thing that would keep the 4yr old child alive, but we don't grant the 4yr old any rights over her body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Does this "individual" have rights is really the question at hand.
    The same rights are granted - you can't use someone's body without their consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The whole " a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body" argument has no support that I have seen, though, admittedly I rarely discuss this subject because of the venom that usually seems to appear on both sides.
    You just agreed that currently, bodily autonomy - in the case of the 4yr old needing his mother's kidney - is protected. Do you think the mother should be forced to donate her kidney?

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Exactly, and that's the point. If we're to grant the same rights to the fetus as to the 4yr old child, then the fetus doesn't have the right to use her body without her consent, just as the 4yr old doesn't have the right to the mother's kidney.

    Why does being inside the mothers womb negate this individuals right to life?
    (After all, it's pretty much where all humans came from)
    Because as soon as it's outside the womb it does have all the rights of you and me. If you killed it outside of the womb it's murder, but inside, eh no worries....?????????????

    It's actually pretty easy to not get pregnant you know. You make it sound like this individual is a foreign parasite invading this poor woman and we are just trying to keep her alive by killing this individual.

    In reality, actions have consequences. The woman in question put herself in the position of getting pregnant. It was her direct thoughts and actions that caused the pregnancy and just because she "doesn't feel" like having the baby, the solution is not killing an innocent individual that had no choice to be born or who it's parents could be.
    You would kill this individual that has done no wrong (because it has done nothing at all). You make it sound like this individual is plotting using the mothers body for illicit purposes.

    Liberalism is insidious!

    ---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    The same rights are granted - you can't use someone's body without their consent.

    This woman made the decisions that lead to her body being "used" by this individual. Pretty much consent!!
    This individual had no say where or when being conceived and has no choice but to stay with the mother only for some months just to stay alive.
    You make it sound like this individual forced the woman to get pregnant!!

    ( I might go for abortion in the case of rape).

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Why does being inside the mothers womb negate this individuals right to life?
    That question sneaks in the premise that the being inside the womb has the right to life. Such a thing is not legally recognized (which is a primary reason why abortion is generally legal) nor have you supported that such a thing exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In reality, actions have consequences. The woman in question put herself in the position of getting pregnant. It was her direct thoughts and actions that caused the pregnancy and the solution is not killing an innocent individual that had no choice to be born or who it's parents would be.
    What she does with her body, including what resides in her body, is legally a decision to be made by her and her doctor. I assume you generally recognize the right of privacy as in what a person does, barring illegal actions, is none of the government's business. And that goes for medical decisions as well.

    Generally speaking, it's none of the government's business what she does with her body.

    Of course the pro-life side would argue that the fetus has a right to life which overrides her right to privacy. And while one cannot say that that is objectively wrong, one also cannot say that it's objectively right either. It's just a matter of opinion whether the fetus' right to life overrides a woman's right to privacy. And the current legal status is that such a thing does not override her right to privacy.

    And really, I see no way for such an issue will be resolved. In a debate like this, it will pretty much always come down to agreeing to disagree.

    I'm on the pro-choice side and I see no way to change another's mind nor do I expect anyone can change mine. Agree to disagree.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That question sneaks in the premise that the being inside the womb has the right to life.
    I "sneak" nothing! I was trying to be as clear as I can (and I have tacitly supported abortion most of my adult life).

    It does come down to is it "a" life in the womb or not".

    ---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What she does with her body, including what resides in her body, is legally a decision to be made by her and her doctor. I assume you generally recognize the right of privacy as in what a person does, barring illegal actions, is none of the government's business. And that goes for medical decisions as well.
    This just isn't so. The gov't has decided they can and will decide what anyone can "do" with their body. How can you question this?

    But the real, actual situation is:

    we are not talking at all about this "woman's body"!!
    we are discussing killing the "body" inside the "woman's body" that she chose to put there and now regrets that decision!!

    ---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And really, I see no way for such an issue will be resolved. In a debate like this, it will pretty much always come down to agreeing to disagree.
    Which mirrors most arguments.
    So???
    ---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm on the pro-choice side and I see no way to change another's mind nor do I expect anyone can change mine. Agree to disagree
    Me too most of my life, but that doesn't make it right, cause if your mommy had aborted you, we wouldn't be talking.

    But, given your last comment, why do you even engage other people on subjects such as this?
    Last edited by Belthazor; September 8th, 2017 at 07:29 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I "sneak" nothing! I was trying to be as clear as I can (and I have tacitly supported abortion most of my adult life).

    It does come down to is it "a" life in the womb or not".
    No, it comes down to whether it has a right to life in the same way that a born person does. And it also comes down to the right of privacy for the woman who carries the fetus.

    That is the conflict between the two sides of the abortion debate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This just isn't so. The gov't has decided they can and will decide what anyone can "do" with their body. How can you question this?
    Because it's absolutely not true. What medical decisions a woman and her doctor make is absolutely covered under the constitutional right to privacy. Under typical circumstances, the government will need to issue a warrant (and a judge must agree that the warrant is legitimate) before the government can even know what the woman has decided to do, let alone interfere with her decision.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    we are not talking at all about this "woman's body"!!
    we are discussing killing the "body" inside the "woman's body" that she chose to put there and now regrets that decision!!
    If we are discussing abortion, we are definitely talking about a woman's body.

    Again, there are two competing issues and one cannot debate the issue without addressing them both.




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Me too most of my life, but that doesn't make it right, cause if your mommy had aborted you, we wouldn't be talking.
    And it's also not right for the government it interfere with a woman's private medical decisions.

    With an unwanted pregnancy, there are no good options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But, given your last comment, why do you even engage other people on subjects such as this?
    To argue for my position regarding the abortion debate. My position is that neither side can prove that they are right as ultimately the basis of the disagreement is based on moral opinion and therefore such debates always end up agreeing to disagree. Do you disagree with my position regarding the abortion debate? Others have disagreed with me on this so this is a position worthy of debate apparently.
    Last edited by mican333; September 9th, 2017 at 08:25 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, it comes down to whether it has a right to life in the same way that a born person does.
    Again we agree
    (but you always have to reword it

    ---------- Post added at 05:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And it also comes down to the right of privacy for the woman who carries the fetus.
    When by rule of law, has "privacy" ever trumped murder (this assumes of course agreement that we are calling this unborn individual a "life", as you just did)?

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Because it's absolutely not true.
    I said there are many existing times when the gov't thinks they can tell anyone there things they can not do to their "own body". Your qualifier of "medical issues with your doctor" of course limits this. But we are not talking about the woman's health. Woman get pregnant and give birth all the time with no issues. Hell, my mom even did it a couple times. Women generally do not seek an abortion because it will improve their health.
    We are talking about the health of the as yet unborn individual.

    ---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    With an unwanted pregnancy, there are no good options.
    And here you are correct, but show the failing of abortion as an option at all, since it is "the taking of a life", because of a decision (two people) made that gave this unborn a chance at life in the first place.

    The unborn is a silent pawn with it's own life at stake.

    A woman makes a poor choice and regrets it. Killing one with no choice or voice is no viable option. The woman chose this to be an issue not the unborn.
    What you are saying is this is more convenient for the woman. Nothing to do with her "health discussions with her doctor.

    The woman wants to undo a bad decision which is natural, but unfortunately, in this case, takes an innocent life.

    I have never seen legal precedent for the taking of a completely innocent life, out of someone's convenience before.

    ---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    To argue for my position regarding the abortion debate. My position is that neither side can prove that they are right as ultimately the basis of the disagreement is based on moral opinion and therefore such debates always end up agreeing to disagree.
    This surprised me a bit, well quite a bit. It really needs me to post separately, but it would be sooooo off topic of the Op, I don't feel it would be appropriate in this thread.

    ---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    My position is that neither side can prove that they are right as ultimately the basis of the disagreement is based on moral opinion and therefore such debates always end up agreeing to disagree.
    And no.

    This issue, again, comes down to,

    does the unborn human have a "right" to life as you and I do??
    (generally, a woman's "health" is not affected enough to endanger her life in an average pregnancy).

    So:
    if it is "human life" while unborn, there are laws that should protect it,
    if it is not a "human life",
    there really is not much of an argument against killing/aborting it......

  10. #10
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    How can anybody say it's not a baby? Her belly has grown to a huge size. If it isn't a child then what is it?

    As far as I'm concerned, these people who believe in taking the baby out of the womb, and the pagan Indians who sacrifice their children into the fire for child-sacrifice, are the same thing. They're of the same cloth. Anybody who has an abortion should be put to death.

  11. #11
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    When by rule of law, has "privacy" ever trumped murder (this assumes of course agreement that we are calling this unborn individual a "life", as you just did)?
    But then by the rule of law murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life. Abortions are not unlawful and therefore are not technically murder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I said there are many existing times when the gov't thinks they can tell anyone there things they can not do to their "own body". Your qualifier of "medical issues with your doctor" of course limits this. But we are not talking about the woman's health. Woman get pregnant and give birth all the time with no issues. Hell, my mom even did it a couple times. Women generally do not seek an abortion because it will improve their health.
    We are talking about the health of the as yet unborn individual.
    No, I was talking about the medical privacy of the woman regarding her health and typically the government has no say in her health decisions nor should it.

    And please stop saying that we are just talking about the unborn individual. A debate has TWO SIDES and we are talking about BOTH OF THEM or else we are not debating the two sides.

    If you refuse to even acknowledge the argument for allowing abortion then you aren't engaging in a debate regarding abortion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And here you are correct, but show the failing of abortion as an option at all, since it is "the taking of a life", because of a decision (two people) made that gave this unborn a chance at life in the first place.

    The unborn is a silent pawn with it's own life at stake.

    A woman makes a poor choice and regrets it. Killing one with no choice or voice is no viable option. The woman chose this to be an issue not the unborn.
    What you are saying is this is more convenient for the woman. Nothing to do with her "health discussions with her doctor.
    Pregnancy is always a health issue. Sometimes women even die when giving birth and a pregnancy ALWAYS causes physical changes in the woman and it's more than just having to carry the fetus in her womb. Morning sickness shows that it's more than just that.

    And having an abortion is indeed a medical procedure so obviously the decision to have one is a medical decision.

    And her choice taking action that resulted in her pregnancy is irrelevant to whether she has the right to medical privacy. Making poor choices never removes one rights (unless the choice was itself illegal).


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This surprised me a bit, well quite a bit. It really needs me to post separately, but it would be sooooo off topic of the Op, I don't feel it would be appropriate in this thread.
    It's not off-topic. For one, it is directly related to the OP. And secondly, it directly addresses your argument.

    My point is that your argument, as well as the pro-choice argument, is ultimately rooted in a subjective premise and therefore you will never be able to ultimately do anything more than state your opinion on the matter. I've never seen either side actually support their position that abortion should be outlawed or needs to remain legal.



    [COLOR="Silver"]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This issue, again, comes down to,

    does the unborn human have a "right" to life as you and I do??
    (generally, a woman's "health" is not affected enough to endanger her life in an average pregnancy).
    That doesn't matter when it comes to medical privacy. If it's a medical procedure (as in a doctor is required to do it) then it's covered under medical privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So:
    if it is "human life" while unborn, there are laws that should protect it,
    if it is not a "human life",
    there really is not much of an argument against killing/aborting it......
    If it's something that is entitled to the same legal protections that a born person has, then abortion should be outlawed. Again, how can one argue either way without just appealing to opinion? And therefore how can one ever convince the "other side" that they are right? As far as I can tell, that pretty much can't be done. So ultimately they have agree to disagree.

    ---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
    How can anybody say it's not a baby? Her belly has grown to a huge size.
    Typically when abortions are performed, there is no noticeable bulge. And if the pregnancy gets to the stage where the belly has gotten big, there are severe legal restrictions on abortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
    If it isn't a child then what is it?
    A fetus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, these people who believe in taking the baby out of the womb, and the pagan Indians who sacrifice their children into the fire for child-sacrifice, are the same thing. They're of the same cloth. Anybody who has an abortion should be put to death.
    Your opinion is noted.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then by the rule of law murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life. Abortions are not unlawful and therefore are not technically murder.
    Umm, ya, kinda what the discussion is about isn't it?

    Should the killing of a human baby be allowed out of "convenience of the mother?
    (And with no regard of the fathers wishes, who might not think having a baby is a bad thing.)

    ---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, I was talking about the medical privacy of the woman regarding her health and typically the government has no say in her health decisions nor should it.
    For the moment I will focus on normal, average, no complication pregnancies, and that the mother just regrets getting pregnant and wants to end it.
    This conversation with her doctor is about how he will kill her baby..., I mean terminate her pregnancy. The only part that is about her health, is the part where they are actually killing the baby and sometimes a woman can be hurt mildy/severely during this time.

    I have had such conversation with a doctor with a girl I knew.

    ---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If it's something that is entitled to the same legal protections that a born person has, then abortion should be outlawed. Again, how can one argue either way without just appealing to opinion? And therefore how can one ever convince the "other side" that they are right? As far as I can tell, that pretty much can't be done. So ultimately they have agree to disagree.[COLOR="Silver"]
    I saved the whole quote so you won't say I am taking you out of context.

    However, the first sentence was key, and I agree with you.

    The rest of that quote changes nothing.

  13. #13
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Umm, ya, kinda what the discussion is about isn't it?

    Should the killing of a human baby be allowed out of "convenience of the mother?
    (And with no regard of the fathers wishes, who might not think having a baby is a bad thing.)
    I assume by "allow", You mean should it be legally allowable which means that this is a legal discussion (what the law should be).

    Given that it's a legal discussion, we need to get the issues and terms as accurate as we can or else we are failing to correctly address what the controversy actually is.

    So first off, "baby" is not the best term. I'm not sure that a fetus technically qualifies as a "baby" (as in they have different definitions) but even if a fetus is technically a "baby", most babies are not fetuses therefore the term "baby" refers to more than the fetus and therefore is imprecise. We are talking about the unborn exclusively but the term baby clearly refers to born babies in most usage. In fact, without context pointing towards the unborn, the word "baby" usually brings to mind a born baby and not a fetus.

    So "fetus" is a more precise term and therefore a more accurate one and should be used. If you disagree, then you need to explain why we should use a imprecise term when we have a precise term available.

    And the legal reasoning for allowing abortion is not based on convenience but based on the right to privacy.

    So the question, stated more accurately, is:

    Should the killing of a human fetus be allowed to protect a woman's right to privacy?

    And with regard to the father, the question would be:

    Does the father of the fetus have a legal interest that overrides a woman's right to privacy?

    A pro-choicer would say "Yes" to the first question and a pro-lifer would say "no" to the first question. And a pro-choicer would say "no" to the second question (a pro-lifer might say either as a pro-lifer doesn't have to agree that the father has a legitimate interest - their focus is on the fetus).

    And again, I see no way to get either side to agree with the other as the primary premise for and against abortion (whether the fetus has a right to life) is ultimately an opinion.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Pregnancy is always a health issue. Sometimes women even die when giving birth and a pregnancy ALWAYS causes physical changes in the woman and it's more than just having to carry the fetus in her womb. Morning sickness shows that it's more than just that.
    Wow!
    How has the human race survived this long?
    ("Morning sickness" really???? This justifies the killing of a baby?)

    If the unborn is a human life, then they shouldn't be having this conversation at all (since it is discussing how the baby is killed - as the doctor doesn't give advice on whether to have or abort a baby), so there really wouldn't be a privacy issue would there?

    ---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I assume by "allow", You mean should it be legally allowable which means that this is a legal discussion (what the law should be).

    Given that it's a legal discussion, we need to get the issues and terms as accurate as we can or else we are failing to correctly address what the controversy actually is.

    So first off, "baby" is not the best term. I'm not sure that a fetus technically qualifies as a "baby" (as in they have different definitions) but even if a fetus is technically a "baby", most babies are not fetuses therefore the term "baby" refers to more than the fetus and therefore is imprecise. We are talking about the unborn exclusively but the term baby clearly refers to born babies in most usage. In fact, without context pointing towards the unborn, the word "baby" usually brings to mind a born baby and not a fetus.

    So "fetus" is a more precise term and therefore a more accurate one and should be used. If you disagree, then you need to explain why we should use a imprecise term when we have a precise term available.

    And the legal reasoning for allowing abortion is not based on convenience but based on the right to privacy.

    So the question, stated more accurately, is:

    Should the killing of a human fetus be allowed to protect a woman's right to privacy?

    And with regard to the father, the question would be:

    Does the father of the fetus have a legal interest that overrides a woman's right to privacy?

    A pro-choicer would say "no" to both answers and a pro-lifer would say "yes" to the first question and might say "yes" to the second.

    And again, I see no way to get either side to agree with the other as the primary premise for and against abortion (whether the fetus has a right to life) is ultimately an opinion.

    Ok, fair enough.
    Let's try get away from semantics completely.

    A woman is pregnant.
    Is she pregnant with a human life?

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Wow!
    How has the human race survived this long?
    ("Morning sickness" really???? This justifies the killing of a baby?)

    If the unborn is a human life, then they shouldn't be having this conversation at all (since it is discussing how the baby is killed - as the doctor doesn't give advice on whether to have or abort a baby), so there really wouldn't be a privacy issue would there?
    Legally, the correct term is "fetus" since it refers exclusively to the unborn. A "human life" or "baby" can refer to humans that are not fetuses and therefore that term is too imprecise for legal use.

    And currently a fetus does not have a legal right that overrides the mother's right to privacy.

    And the debate is SHOULD the fetus have a legal right to life? That is it. Saying that it's about anything else or trying to use different terms is just avoiding what the debate really is about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A woman is pregnant.
    Is she pregnant with a human life?
    She is pregnant with a human fetus. "Human Life" is too imprecise for legal use. You and I are "human lives" and the debate does not center around our right to life but only the lives of those who have yet to be born and the most accurate and precise term for them is "fetus".

    I see no reason to use a less precise term to describe the unborn.
    Last edited by mican333; September 10th, 2017 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And the debate is SHOULD the fetus have a legal right to life? That is it. Saying that it's about anything else or trying to use different terms is just avoiding what the debate really is about.
    YES!
    This is what I have been saying all along.
    Nothing at all to do with anyone's privacy (by the way, not all medical procedures are legal just because somebody wants it done) or their "rights over their own body" or anything else.

    This has to do with the "fetus/unborn human/individual/human/human life/life/baby" (the pronoun means nothing at all).....

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    YES!
    This is what I have been saying all along.
    Nothing at all to do with anyone's privacy (by the way, not all medical procedures are legal just because somebody wants it done) or their "rights over their own body" or anything else.
    No. The reason that women have a right to abortion is specifically due to the right to privacy. So as far as the law goes, it has everything to do with privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    This has to do with the "fetus/unborn human/individual/human/human life/life/baby" (the pronoun means nothing at all).....
    If one agrees that a fetus has the right to life, then they can argue that while the right to privacy is important, there is a greater concern that overrides the privacy issue when it comes to abortion.

    But here's where we tend to reach "agree to disagree" as some think the fetus should have the legal right to life and others do not think that. And I don't know how one side can change the others minds so it's pretty much at an impasse.

  18. #18
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And the debate is SHOULD the fetus have a legal right to life? That is it. Saying that it's about anything else or trying to use different terms is just avoiding what the debate really is about.

    No. The reason that women have a right to abortion is specifically due to the right to privacy. So as far as the law goes, it has everything to do with privacy.
    Read your own quote again Mican.


    "And the debate is SHOULD the fetus have a legal right to life? That is it. Saying that it's about anything else or trying to use different terms is just avoiding what the debate really is about. "


    Try again, only much harder this time, cause your last response runs counter to your own quote....

    You absolutely nailed it with that quote!!
    It is ONLY about the fetus/human/viable tissue mass/unborn human/life/baby/human life (again, use whatever pronoun you prefer, it is of NO significance whatsoever, as the life form in question is HUMAN, not a carrot, not a goat, not a mushroom, it is about a HUMAN!!).
    Last edited by Belthazor; September 10th, 2017 at 07:50 PM.

  19. #19
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Read your own quote again Mican.

    "And the debate is SHOULD the fetus have a legal right to life? That is it. Saying that it's about anything else or trying to use different terms is just avoiding what the debate really is about. "

    Try again, only much harder this time, cause your last response runs counter to your own quote
    ....

    I didn't counter myself because I was talking about two different things.

    1. The reason abortion is legal is because of the right to privacy so it's entirely relevant to any discussion about the law.
    2. The point of contention, and therefore what the debate is about, is whether the fetus has the right to life.

    And I really don't see any reason to try to play "gotcha!" or nit-pick what someone says. If such comments do not forward the debate, they shouldn't be made.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It is ONLY about the fetus/human/viable tissue mass/unborn human/life/baby/human life (again, use whatever pronoun you prefer, it is of NO significance whatsoever, as the life form in question is HUMAN, not a carrot, not a goat, not a mushroom, it is about a HUMAN!!).
    Okay. I'm going to hold you to letting me choose the pronoun and I will use "fetus" exclusively. Of course we can say "human fetus" but when we refer to the unborn, "fetus" the pronoun we will be using.

    So okay, it's a human fetus we are referring to.

    And as I said, whether a human fetus has the right to life and therefore there's a concern that overrides a woman's right to privacy, seems to be a matter of opinion and I don't see how either side can convince the other. So ultimately this debate leads to an impasse. If you know of a way to break the impasse, let me know.

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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ....

    I didn't counter myself because I was talking about two different things.

    1. The reason abortion is legal is because of the right to privacy so it's entirely relevant to any discussion about the law.
    2. The point of contention, and therefore what the debate is about, is whether the fetus has the right to life.

    And I really don't see any reason to try to play "gotcha!" or nit-pick what someone says. If such comments do not forward the debate, they shouldn't be made.
    Huh???
    If you wrote something and later wish you had said it differently or not at all, please just say you "effed up" or some such and we can move on. This "gotcha" business dumb.
    Man up dude...
    Last edited by Belthazor; September 10th, 2017 at 08:46 PM.

 

 
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