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  1. #41
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In this case the woman is not discussing her health (as at the moment I am only discussing abortion on a whim), she is discussing killing her fetus/unborn child/very small human.
    Well, I'm not discussing abortion on a whim. I'm talking about abortion in general. And since the pro-life side is against abortion in general, there is no valid reason to limit our discussion to whims. And likewise I have to assume that you are against abortion even when it's not done on a whim so again, there's no good reason to limit the discussion to whims.

    And it IS a medical procedure. It is performed in a medical setting by a licensed medical professional (at least when it's legal it is).


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The gov't is charged with protecting innocent life.
    Well, pre-fertilized eggs are also innocent life and will grow to be a human being if it is fertilized and then brought to term. So is the government charged with protecting unfertilized human eggs?

    Of course not. The government is charged with protecting the lives that have a legal right to life which currently does not include fetuses. It is not charged with protecting all innocent lives (or else it should protect unfertilized eggs and all animals as they are innocent as well).

    Which is not to say that one can't argue that it SHOULD protect fetuses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    did not "miststate" your position. I restated it, with it's logical conclusion.
    No. You attributed to me something that I never said nor something that can logically be derived from my position.

    I never said its right to life is dependent on the mother. I never gave ANY conditions on when the fetus has the right to life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I disagree the 4th applies to this case.
    So you don't agree that the fourth amendment right to privacy covers medical decisions?

    So can the government, without a warrant, access one's medical records? Of course not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And your second point is kinda bassakwards. Human life comes first and foremost in legal precedent in any other case. Why should "privacy" human life?
    Legally, the fetus does not have the right to life so legally its life does not legally come before the right to privacy.

    Again (and again and again), THIS is the crux of the abortion debate - whether the fetus should have the legal right to life like born humans do. And as I have said, this issue seems to be an "agree to disagree" issue. Now, can you support that the fetus should have the legal right to life?

    If so, then let's hear your argument (and starting with the premise that it's a human life deserving of protection is engaging in the begging the question fallacy).

    If you can't support that the fetus deserves the legal right to life, then you should concede that my argument that it's an agree to disagree issue is correct.
    Last edited by mican333; September 20th, 2017 at 06:24 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I'm not discussing abortion on a whim. I'm talking about abortion in general. And since the pro-life side is against abortion in general, there is no valid reason to limit our discussion to whims. And likewise I have to assume that you are against abortion even when it's not done on a whim so again, there's no good reason to limit the discussion to whims.

    And it IS a medical procedure. It is performed in a medical setting by a licensed medical professional (at least when it's legal it is).




    Well, pre-fertilized eggs are also innocent life and will grow to be a human being if it is fertilized and then brought to term. So is the government charged with protecting unfertilized human eggs?

    Of course not. The government is charged with protecting the lives that have a legal right to life which currently does not include fetuses. It is not charged with protecting all innocent lives (or else it should protect unfertilized eggs and all animals as they are innocent as well).

    Which is not to say that one can't argue that it SHOULD protect fetuses.




    No. You attributed to me something that I never said nor something that can logically be derived from my position.

    I never said its right to life is dependent on the mother. I never gave ANY conditions on when the fetus has the right to life.




    So you don't agree that the fourth amendment right to privacy covers medical decisions?

    So can the government, without a warrant, access one's medical records? Of course not.




    Legally, the fetus does not have the right to life so legally its life does not legally come before the right to privacy.

    Again (and again and again), THIS is the crux of the abortion debate - whether the fetus should have the legal right to life like born humans do. And as I have said, this issue seems to be an "agree to disagree" issue. Now, can you support that the fetus should have the legal right to life?

    If so, then let's hear your argument (and starting with the premise that it's a human life deserving of protection is engaging in the begging the question fallacy).

    If you can't support that the fetus deserves the legal right to life, then you should concede that my argument that it's an agree to disagree issue is correct.

    I think you were posting at the same time I was, if so, please see the total of my last post.

  3. #43
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1. A pregnant woman is "pregnant with a human".
    But just somehow qualifying as "human" does not give one a legal right to life. An unfertilized egg is "human" and yet there is no controversy or concern when one of those dies (which happens whenever a woman has a period).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    2. This human has been shown to clearly have a right to life in legal precedent in other circumstances (as in killing a pregnant woman is killing two people when the murderer is charged)!!
    Just because an action has a legal punishment does not mean that the punishment is based on any particular established legal principle such as the fetus having a right to life. The law proscribing punishment for harming a fetus outside of the act of abortion exists in certain states but not all states. That clearly shows that the fetus, at the federal level, does not have the legal right to life. And even in states where fetal homicides exist, abortion is still legal which could not be the case if the fetus had the legal right to life.

    Besides that, even if there were currently a legal right to life for the fetus, that does not support that there SHOULD BE a legal right to life. To argue otherwise is to engage in the is/ought fallacy. Likewise I cannot argue that the fact that there currently is no legal right to life is support that there should not be a legal right to life.

    Whether there should or should not be a legal right to life for the fetus cannot be based on whether there currently is or is not a legal right to life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    3. Virtually every human ever has to go thru the stage of being a fetus. It's is just a normal stage of human life. You don't suddenly become a human just because you have gone down the birth canal. It is no different than any other stage of human life. You are conceived, live and grow till you die.
    There are OBVIOUS differences between being in the womb and being outside of the womb. A primary one is that the fetus cannot survive outside of the womb. You can ignore this difference or have the OPINION that it's irrelevant to the issue but that would be nothing more than an opinion.

    So this argument is ultimately subjective and can be discarded by those who do not share the same opinion (and therefore the two sides agree to disagree).




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    4. So again, I ask why should this fetus right to life be trumped by the MOTHERS wishes to kill it.
    Begging the question. You need to establish that the fetus has the right to life before we can be concerned about what trumps it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    5. Show me any legal precedent where some ones "privacy" required an innocent human to be killed.
    Legalized abortion. Of course.

    And if we expand "human" to unfertilized human eggs (and since they are human I see reason why we cannot) a woman's menstrual cycle is likewise covered under the right to privacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So your argument is:
    1. that a woman has a right to discuss killing this human with her doctor and call it "privacy". Though her only health concerns in this case are, she could get hurt while the doctor is killing the fetus/human, emotionally and/or physically. And the emotional hurt can last decades and/or not show for decades. This is a decision that can not be undone!
    I'll state my own argument as opposed to having you misstate is for me.

    My argument is:
    1. Medical decisions are covered under the right to privacy. I have supported this argument plenty so until you provide an argument that shows that medical decisions are not covered under the right to privacy (and just saying you don't agree or asking me to support it after I've already done so does not count), this argument stands. Please don't challenge it unless you can actually show that medical decisions are not covered under the right to privacy.

    2. IF the fetus has the right to life, then there is a greater concern than the right to privacy and therefore abortion should be outlawed. IF the fetus does not have the right to life, then there is no greater concern that overrides the right to privacy in medical decisions and abortion should remain legal.

    3. Whether the fetus has the right to life is a mater of opinion and there appears to be no way to convince those who believe one thing about the fetal right to life to change his/her mind. Therefore there is no way for opposing sides on the abortion debate to convince the other. Therefore the abortion debate ultimately ends in an agree to disagree situation.

    THAT'S my argument. Saying my argument is anything else is misstating my argument.
    Last edited by mican333; September 21st, 2017 at 06:44 AM.

  4. #44
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Besides that, even if there were currently a legal right to life for the fetus, that does not support that there SHOULD BE a legal right to life. To argue otherwise is to engage in the is/ought fallacy. Likewise I cannot argue that the fact that there currently is no legal right to life is support that there should not be a legal right to life.
    So, just because abortion is currently legal does not support that is should be.

    ---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Legalized abortion. Of course.
    Gee, do you suppose I meant, aside from our current argument, show me ANOTHER legal precedent???
    Kinda like when I offered killing a pregnant women and being charged with two murders as support for the fetus having legal rights........

    ---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And if we expand "human" to unfertilized human eggs (and since they are human I see reason why we cannot) a woman's menstrual cycle is likewise covered under the right to privacy.
    WTH?????
    The human egg is a cell. It will only be this unless fertilized. It can not become a human being by itself.

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I'm not discussing abortion on a whim. I'm talking about abortion in general. And since the pro-life side is against abortion in general, there is no valid reason to limit our discussion to whims. And likewise I have to assume that you are against abortion even when it's not done on a whim so again, there's no good reason to limit the discussion to whims.
    Funny, since that is the ONLY "type" of abortion I have talked about. Basically using abortion as birth control. Your comments of something like "there are no good solutions in an unwanted pregnancy" meant to me you understood my position. But since you are not willing to defend that position I guess we are done here.
    After reading the whole thread again this seems the logical conclusion anyway.

    Till we meet again sir, have a great night.

  5. #45
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So, just because abortion is currently legal does not support that is should be.
    Correct. And I never argued that abortion should be legal because it's currently legal. In fact, I haven't argued that abortion should be legal at all. My argument does not forward an "ought" in regards to the legality of abortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Gee, do you suppose I meant, aside from our current argument, show me ANOTHER legal precedent???
    I see no reason why I need to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Kinda like when I offered killing a pregnant women and being charged with two murders as support for the fetus having legal rights........
    And I rebutted that it does. And I definitely rebutted that it should.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    WTH?????
    The human egg is a cell. It will only be this unless fertilized. It can not become a human being by itself.
    But is a human egg. So you draw the line between an unfertilized egg and a fertilized egg. And you can do that if you want. But you haven't provided a reason for anyone who doesn't already agree that that is the appropriate line to agree with the way you see it.

    And unless you can do that, we are at an "agree to disagree" situation, per my argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Funny, since that is the ONLY "type" of abortion I have talked about. Basically using abortion as birth control.
    No, you were talking about ALL abortions. You argue that the unborn have a right to life which means that ALL unborn are to be protected, not just those who are going to be aborted on a whim.

    Seriously, are you okay with legalized abortion if the mother is not having the abortion on a whim? Of course not and therefore you were talking about all abortions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Your comments of something like "there are no good solutions in an unwanted pregnancy" meant to me you understood my position.
    "unwanted pregnancies" are not restricted to those who abort on a whim. A woman who thinks long and hard before having an abortion has an unwanted pregnancy and is not aborting on a whim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But since you are not willing to defend that position I guess we are done here.
    The only position I'm defending is my argument that this controversy always amounts to agree to disagree. And if you aren't going to attack my argument, then we are done here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Till we meet again sir, have a great night.
    You too. Have a good one.

  6. #46
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    Re: Any prevalent American social issue

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Correct. And I never argued that abortion should be legal because it's currently legal. In fact, I haven't argued that abortion should be legal at all. My argument does not forward an "ought" in regards to the legality of abortion.



    I see no reason why I need to do that.




    And I rebutted that it does. And I definitely rebutted that it should.




    But is a human egg. So you draw the line between an unfertilized egg and a fertilized egg. And you can do that if you want. But you haven't provided a reason for anyone who doesn't already agree that that is the appropriate line to agree with the way you see it.

    And unless you can do that, we are at an "agree to disagree" situation, per my argument.




    You are arguing that we should outlaw abortion because the fetus has the right to life. Logically, that means you are arguing for the protection of ALL THE UNBORN and not just the ones who are being aborted on a whim.

    So yes, the fact that you are arguing for the protection of all the unborn does mean that you are referring to every abortion.
    Ummm, ya (or no really...).

    Till we meet again sir,
    T

 

 
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