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  1. #1
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    Our Racist National Anthem

    A significant number of NFL players have been sitting or raising a fist during the playing of The Star Spangled Banner to protest perceived racial injustice.
    http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/p...2017-preseason

    Articles were written about the anthem containing lines that some believe are racist.
    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...nap-story.html
    http://www.telegram.com/article/2016...logs/309049724
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/29/sport/...rnd/index.html

    A statue of Francis Scott Key has been vandalized.
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...913-story.html
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-in-maryland/

    Historians disagree on the meaning of the verse in question.
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-08-...-banner-racist

    Should our national anthem be officially revised to eliminate the offending words?
    Last edited by evensaul; September 13th, 2017 at 06:31 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    As I understand it, the allegedly racist part of the National Anthem is a separate verse that is not part of the anthem that people sing at public events. So there is no need for revisions since the part that some find objectionable has already been removed from the national anthem.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    Should our national anthem be officially revised to eliminate the offending words?
    Is an anthem even necessary? Let alone at the beginning of some dumb event.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is an anthem even necessary? Let alone at the beginning of some dumb event.
    Not necessary but it many people like to sing it at certain events so that's a good enough reason to continue it.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not necessary but it many people like to sing it at certain events so that's a good enough reason to continue it.
    Since it's not mandated each business can decide whether or not to include it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Since it's not mandated each business can decide whether or not to include it.
    Yeah, and apparently employees of businesses can do what they want also. For example, the NFL players who refuse to stand, or this Buffalo Wild Wings employee who turned down the sound on televisions during the "controversial" playing of the National Anthem: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/...tional-anthem/

    So if people are offended, shouldn't we just chuck the Anthem and put it in a museum, like we're doing with Confederate statues?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Eschatology

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yeah, and apparently employees of businesses can do what they want also. For example, the NFL players who refuse to stand, or this Buffalo Wild Wings employee who turned down the sound on televisions during the "controversial" playing of the National Anthem: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/...tional-anthem/

    So if people are offended, shouldn't we just chuck the Anthem and put it in a museum, like we're doing with Confederate statues?
    I think you guys (the USA) should remove every statue and reference to history. That will solve the problem (Man, this is complete stupidity). Thank goodness you have someone in power who is not politically correct!

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  9. #8
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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Since it's not mandated each business can decide whether or not to include it.
    Right. Which is why sporting events tend to have the National Anthem sung at the beginning. They choose to do it.

    ---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yeah, and apparently employees of businesses can do what they want also. For example, the NFL players who refuse to stand, or this Buffalo Wild Wings employee who turned down the sound on televisions during the "controversial" playing of the National Anthem: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/...tional-anthem/
    But the players are not protesting that Anthem itself. Kapernick was protesting racism within the US, not the Anthem. And the BW3 guy didn't say that he personally found the anthem offensive - his rationale didn't make much sense actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So if people are offended, shouldn't we just chuck the Anthem and put it in a museum, like we're doing with Confederate statues?
    It depends on how many people find it offensive and why they find it offensive and if their reasoning for offense has merit. With the confederate statues, they are racist symbols with many (most?) being erected decades after the civil war as a symbol of white supremacy. So people do have plenty of reason to find it offensive. In fact, if someone doesn't find it offensive on some level, they either must not realize why they were erected or just doesn't have much of a problem with white supremacy.

    "Almost none of the monuments were put up right after the Civil War. Some were erected during the civil rights era in the early 1960s, which coincided with the war’s centennial, but the vast majority of monuments date to between 1895 and World War I. They were part of a campaign to paint the Southern cause in the Civil War as just and slavery as a benevolent institution, and their installation came against a backdrop of Jim Crow violence and oppression of African Americans. The monuments were put up as explicit symbols of white supremacy.

    The group responsible for the majority of these memorials was the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC), the most influential white women’s organization in the South in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Honoring Confederate heroes, generals and soldiers alike, was one of the group’s primary objectives, and the hundreds of monuments throughout the South — and beyond — serve as testimony to the Daughters’ aggressive agenda to vindicate the Confederacy....

    The 1890s, when the UDC was founded and monument building began in earnest, represented a decade of virulent racism across the South. Not content to disenfranchise black men, Southern whites went on a lynching spree. Ida B. Wells, the African American journalist and anti-lynching crusader, documented 186 lynchings of black people in 1893 alone — mostly men but women and children, too. As she wrote in her account “The Red Record,” these “scenes of unusual brutality failed to have any visible effect upon the humane sentiments of the people of our land.”

    Violence against blacks only increased in the early decades of the 20th century. In addition to continued lynching across the South, the Atlanta Race Riot of 1906 demonstrated how seriously white men took their supremacy over African Americans: An estimated 10,000 white men and boys in the city went after black men, beating dozens to death and injuring hundreds more.

    Amid that brutality, the pace of Confederate monument construction increased. The UDC and other like-minded heritage organizations were intent on honoring the Confederate generation, establishing a revisionist history of what they called “The War Between the States.” According to this Lost Cause mythology, the South went to war to defend states’ rights, slavery was essentially a benevolent institution that imparted Christianity to African “savages,” and, while the Confederacy was defeated, theirs was a just cause and those who fought were heroes. The Daughters regarded the Ku Klux Klan, which had been founded to resist Reconstruction, as a heroic organization, necessary to return order to the South. Order, of course, meant the use of violence to subdue newly freed blacks."


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.55589813d6cd

    There is a lot of justification to want these statues removed. They were, and still, symbols of white supremacy - white supremacists actually marched to protest the removal of one of the statues so THEY certainly think that the statue is important to their cause.

    Assuming one is against white supremacy, it doesn't take much rationalization to hold that such things should not be present in the public square.

    A similar case cannot be made for the national anthem. And there are few people who find it particularly offensive.

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I think you guys (the USA) should remove every statue and reference to history. That will solve the problem (Man, this is complete stupidity).
    No. I just think that we should remove symbols of white supremacy from the public square. If the statues indeed have historic relevance, there's a place for them - a museum or private collection.

    And the statues are not a part of the history of the civil war - they were erected decades after the war.

    As an analogy - if after WW2, some Nazi sympathizers decided to erect as statue of Hitler in a town square and then decades after that, people decided to remove the statue from the public square, would that be "erasing history"? There's no doubt that Hitler was a significant historical figure. But the fact that the statue was erected in the public square to celebrate him and is still seen by those who admire him as an honor to him and his cause means that to keep it up would be tacit approval of him and his cause.

    -------------------------------

    So in short, comparing the confederate statues to the American Anthem is false equivalency. The reasoning for removing the statues is not based on some people (like a VERY small percentage) finding some kind of weak rationale to say they find it offensive. Assuming one is against white supremacy, they have a very solid rationale for wanting the statues removed from the public square. And btw, it doesn't mean we have to remove them. But it does mean that the decision to remove them makes a lot of sense and I don't see much good reason to be against it.
    Last edited by mican333; September 15th, 2017 at 08:30 AM.

  10. #9
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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I think you guys (the USA) should remove every statue and reference to history. That will solve the problem (Man, this is complete stupidity).
    No. I just think that we should remove symbols of white supremacy from the public square. If the statues indeed have historic relevance, there's a place for them - a museum or private collection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    And the statues are not a part of the history of the civil war - they were erected decades after the war.

    As an analogy - if after WW2, some Nazi sympathizers decided to erect as statue of Hitler in a town square and then decades after that, people decided to remove the statue from the public square, would that be "erasing history"? There's no doubt that Hitler was a significant historical figure. But the fact that the statue was erected in the public square to celebrate him and is still seen by those who admire him as an honor to him and his cause means that to keep it up would be tacit approval of him and his cause.
    But many people are taking it to violent extremes and those against racism are exhibiting signs of racism and bigotry. Many conservatives are labeled racist and ultra right. It wreaks of a double standard. That is the problem with political correctness, IMO.

    I believe the leftist liberal ideology has taken your nation to extremes. Campuses like Berkley have stood by and watched as freedom of speech has been denied by leftist groups. That is a danger in the control of a nation (I think of Germany leading up to WWII). Freedom of speech is squashed with violence and threats of violence by the intolerant left. Groups of people are singled out because they oppose the majority view or the view of those in power. There is still a power grab going on in Washington. Democrats do not want their pet likes let go of. I see the big push for socialism, and not the good kind, the kind where big government controls the state. Where in the world has this kind of socialism been an effective advocate for human rights? There is a battle in your nation going on like never before, for the hearts and minds of this generation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

    Peter

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    You seem to be changing the topic from removing confederate statues from the public square. So I'll consider my arguments regarding that to be unrebutted

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    But many people are taking it to violent extremes and those against racism are exhibiting signs of racism and bigotry.
    What racism are you referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Many conservatives are labeled racist and ultra right. It wreaks of a double standard.
    I don't know about "many" but those that are actually white supremacists are labeled "racist" and they should be. But again, what leftist racist are you referring to? I mean one can criticize the extreme left on several fronts but racism does not seem to be one of those front.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I believe the leftist liberal ideology has taken your nation to extremes. Campuses like Berkley have stood by and watched as freedom of speech has been denied by leftist groups. That is a danger in the control of a nation (I think of Germany leading up to WWII). Freedom of speech is squashed with violence and threats of violence by the intolerant left.
    If you are referring to a small minority, fair enough. But if you are going to paint the entirety on the left based on their worst elements then you likewise must paint the entire right based on their worst elements (like white supremacists) or else you are engaging in a double standard.

    Either we paint BOTH sides based on their worst elements or we don't and just acknowledge that amongst a group of very reasonable people on both the right and left there is a minority of extremists.


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Democrats do not want their pet likes let go of. I see the big push for socialism, and not the good kind, the kind where big government controls the state.
    Example? And I mean where is there advocacy for control of the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Where in the world has this kind of socialism been an effective advocate for human rights?
    Socialism and Capitalism are economic models and neither advocate for human rights. Economic systems don't do that.
    Last edited by mican333; September 15th, 2017 at 08:27 AM.

  12. #11
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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As I understand it, the allegedly racist part of the National Anthem is a separate verse that is not part of the anthem that people sing at public events. So there is no need for revisions since the part that some find objectionable has already been removed from the national anthem.
    It has NOT been removed. Singing only the first stanza is a choice being made by each event organizer and singers, and is not an official change. There does not appear to have been any change to the lyrics since it was officially declared the National Anthem in 1931.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

    ---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So in short, comparing the confederate statues to the American Anthem is false equivalency.
    I was making a comparison, yes. Claiming equivalence, no. There are undeniable similarities in that there is perceived racism that is only now coming to the public's attention.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It has NOT been removed. Singing only the first stanza is a choice being made by each event organizer and singers, and is not an official change.
    That's a technicality. The issue is what people sing when they sing it. There's nothing particularly offensive in the anthem as most people know it. I certainly only know the first stanza and that goes for a vast majority of Ameri

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I was making a comparison, yes. Claiming equivalence, no. There are undeniable similarities in that there is perceived racism that is only now coming to the public's attention.
    But the similarities are so minor that the reasoning for removing the statues does not really apply to the issue with the anthem.

    In fact, I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously suggest altering or banning the anthem. I didn't read all of your linked articles but I recall in one discussion, the guy who was pointing out the alleged racism even said that he was not suggesting banning the anthem but just wanted people to be aware of the content.

    Almost all of the legitimate rationale for removing the statues does not apply to the anthem.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    There's nothing particularly offensive in the anthem as most people know it.
    Right, but ignorance of the racism doesn't mean it isn't there. So you're okay with a racist National Anthem, because not many people are aware of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But the similarities are so minor...
    Your opinion. I think the similarity is significant and stark. There just aren't enough people aware of the racism to prompt a change.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Right, but ignorance of the racism doesn't mean it isn't there. So you're okay with a racist National Anthem, because not many people are aware of it.
    I consider the National Anthem to be what people sing at ball games and such. So the parts that aren't sung are effectively deleted from the Anthem and aren't a concern. I see no reason to really be concerned with something that people don't have to deal with (unlike a statue erected in the middle of town).

    Similarly, the statues were not changed or destroyed but just removed from the public square.

    So just like people were satisfied with the statues removed from public square, people should be satisfied if the "racist" portion of the anthem doesn't get sung in public.

    So we've already effective moved the offending parts of the anthem.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think the similarity is significant and stark. There just aren't enough people aware of the racism to prompt a change.
    But you are just appealing to your opinion and guesswork here.

    Can you give some kind of solid evidence that a change should or would happen?
    Last edited by mican333; September 15th, 2017 at 01:09 PM.

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    I'm not highly engaged in politics. I am engaged in worldview analysis, and so I approach the situation from what is behind it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You seem to be changing the topic from removing confederate statues from the public square. So I'll consider my arguments regarding that to be unrebutted
    What is behind the actions?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What racism are you referring to?
    For instance: "The traditional media are obsessed with tying conservatives to the "alt-right." There have been more than 50 major news network mentions this year alone as journalists try to do what they always do -- paint conservatives as racist, sexist, and a few other words that end in ist. All in the name of “tolerance.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...eft-world.html

    Sean Hannity illustrated how these charges come up every election by the Democrats.

    And these liberal Democrats that usually cry "Tolerance" are some of the most intolerant people out there. They hold a double standard, shutting down the freedom of speech in their liberal institutions across the country, blackballing Conservatives from speaking at these establishments. They live a double standard. They criticize Conservatives all the while doing the very thing they object to. The tearing down of statues is just one of many examples.

    The media narrative promotes this idea that Conservatives are largely racist. I think of how they painted the AG.

    Then you have the Hollywood wackos with their massive followings that lead the fans into mass hysteria. In fact, there are many gatekeepers (those people and institutions that filter information into their particular culture) that are influencing a leftist agenda. Besides the media, the institutions of learning/schools/universities, the control of the government, pop-culture, the elite, half the population of your country that live on the coasts and around the Great Lakes have supported this movement.

    Education is one of the most effective weapons in controlling how a population thinks and my personal opinion is that these institution are responsible for creating intellectual idiots, people incapable of sound reasoning because they are so indoctrinated into a belief system that has its foundation in mid-air.

    One word of advise that has stayed with me throughout my years of life is this: "If you want understand a person, group, then understand what influences them."

    Hitler understood the control of his society came from these very same institutions I have mentions - media, higher learning, the elite.

    More for instances: Black Lives Matter targeting police and promoting an intolerance for white people when I do not feel that is the case except for a small minority.

    For instance: When President Trump won the election, one black CNN newscaster (Van Jones) call the election a "whitelash" and promoted that agenda online. He was a sore loser and painted the Conservative movement as racist, but with comments like that I feel he was showing signs of racism.

    http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...sh-orig-mg.cnn

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know about "many" but those that are actually white supremacists are labeled "racist" and they should be. But again, what leftist racist are you referring to? I mean one can criticize the extreme left on several fronts but racism does not seem to be one of those front.
    See my last statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you are referring to a small minority, fair enough. But if you are going to paint the entirety on the left based on their worst elements then you likewise must paint the entire right based on their worst elements (like white supremacists) or else you are engaging in a double standard.
    I don't see a reasonable element of the Democratic Party at the moment. That is a personal belief so you can call it what you like (I'm Canadian, not an American). There is always a hidden agenda behind the Democratic Party, IMO, who I do not see as looking for the good for the American people, but to obstruct EVERY SINGLE policy of the Republicans to date. Why would a reasoning person vote Democrat?

    Behind all this I see a separation of ideology of liberal (no absolute reference point) versus conservative (founded upon belief in God, but not lived by godly principles much of the time). I see an atheistic agenda on the Democratic side of the equation. The underpinning of your society has been gaining ground for a long time now. Trump may be the only figure who can somewhat counter this movement. He has a lot against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Either we paint BOTH sides based on their worst elements or we don't and just acknowledge that amongst a group of very reasonable people on both the right and left there is a minority of extremists.
    I don't see a good element to the Democratic Party at the moment (OBSTRUCTIONISTS). How are they helping the American people?

    You are free to paint them however you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Example? And I mean where is there advocacy for control of the state.
    Media, institutes of higher learning, the elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Socialism and Capitalism are economic models and neither advocate for human rights. Economic systems don't do that.
    Neither does science. Science is not moral either. So what?

    People, in their belief do or do not promote human rights. Leftist carry it on further to human entitlements and privileges. The criminal has more rights that the victim in some cases for the victim is victimized and vilanized way to often.

    That is my opinion on the subject.

    Peter

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    Re: Our Racist National Anthem

    To add to the source material, here's an interesting CNN article that addresses some of the issues: http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/31/opinio...gue/index.html

    Essentially, Key was referring to the British forces, which included former American slaves. Key thought of them not as "subhuman" but rather as the enemy since they were attacking the US. Apparently, Key was rather progressive in his time as well, freeing 4 out of the 7 slaves and providing a home for at least one, for life.
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