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  1. #21
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    I would agree that if bad things happen to Christians, it is not a proof in and of itself, that those Christians were being punished for sin. However, if the text of Scripture declares or shows the subject Christian being punished for a sin or sins, then we should examine it.

    1 Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property. 2 He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land? 4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”

    5 When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it. 6 So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened. 8 Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.” 9 Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” 10 At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things. (Acts 5:1-11)

    It would seem that this Christian couple (who were among the early believers in Peter's church) were punished for lying about charity funds and stealing those funds and breaking their vow of charity. This punishment met them, regardless of their belief in the blood of Jesus.
    I can't believe I forgot about that. Okay, so we have this point in the early church where the believers are coming together and sharing EVERYTHING. Food, clothes, shelter, finances, etc. Acts 4:34-35 explains that the ones who had land were selling their lands and giving the money to the apostles to be redistributed among the poor to care for the needy. And verse 34 points out that because of this, they had actually erased poverty from their own this way. It goes on to point out one of them named Joseph, who did exactly what it's talking about, selling the land and giving the proceeds to be used for the care of the poor. Then we get to Acts 5 and see a counter-point. Ananias and Sapphira, by contrast, sell some land and decide that instead of giving the entire amount, they were going to keep some for themselves. So if we do a quick comparison of their behavior to Acts 4:32, where it says that everyone was holding their possession in common (what's mine is yours). Ananias and Sapphira don't seem keen on that given that they're holding some money secretly for themselves.

    So right off the bat we're seeing two people behaving very differently than the established behavior. Instead of sharing and sharing alike, they're upholding a false image (sure that's all we got for the sale) and not sharing (we'll keep this portion for ourselves). There's a litany of verses that touch this issue. We can go back to Jesus who said in Matthew 6:19 not to "store up for yourselves treasures on earth" or in 6:25 where he goes on to encourage people not to worry about their daily needs and trust God to provide what they need. Luke 12:13-21 tells a parable about a man keeping goods for himself, and cautions that we should be rich toward God (spiritually rich) rathan than rich towards the world (materially rich). And that's not extending into John's letters where he argues that anyone who claims salvation but continues to sin has never really been saved (their confession is false) or Paul who touches the same vein in Romans when he argues that because of our salvation we ought not continue as we were before salvation, or James who declares that faith without works is a dead faith (false faith) or in Hebrews where it points out that a man who claims salvation but acts as he did before (continues in his sin) is actually worse off than he was prior to salvation. Peter points out the same in 2nd Peter. Revelations touches the same subject in the letter to the churches in Laodicea and Sardis.

    The common thread here is that Ananias and Sapphira show themselves to be of a false faith. They were insincere in their profession of faith in Christ and as a result, weren't really saved or else they would have behaved differently. What we're seeing, more or less, is that Ananias and Sapphira in saving for themselves show a lack of faith that God would meet their needs, through their willing to decieve the rest of their church that they aren't of one soul with the church, through their willingness to deny charity to the needy that they lack compassion towards those in need. So the inconsistency here would be for us to declare that they were believers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    This punishment would seem to even be meted out in the eternal afterlife as well according to the NT. Jesus is quoted in Revelations 21:8 as follows:

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:10, would seem to imply that reward and punishment is not done away with for believers:

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
    I'm not sure I see an issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    The NT also teaches, that local law enforcement, (police or similar earthly authorities) are heavenly agents to mete out punishment against sinners. Paul in Romans preaches this to Christian believers.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)
    I don't really see a problem here either. We're encouraged to be peacebale, law-abiding citizens. Not just to avoid punishment from authorities, but because lawlessness on our part can have a negative impact on people's perceptions of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Mathew 6, has Jesus author a prayer for his followers. It is obvious that a follower of Jesus certainly believes in him and his sacrifice on the cross etc. Yet, a key aspect of the daily prayer a Christian is to utter, includes a blanket forgiveness of the "debts" other people owe to the supplicant. Jesus explains why in verses 14-15:

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    So it would seem that any Christian will not be forgiven for sins unless they also forgive everyone who sinned against them too. Tell me, do all believing Christians forgive everyone? I am talking about this level of forgiveness as well:

    Mathew 18 (21-35)"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

    Jesus then teaches a parable which explains the fate of a Christian who will not forgive every misdeed of anyone against him.

    "32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
    Well, we can argue forgiveness, but first we have to accept that whether people forgive everyone or not has no bearing on whether or not we are called to forgive everyone. The point of the parable that Jesus tells about the unmerciful servant is to remind, and reinforce, that we ought to forgive everyone sincerely because God forgives us for infinitely larger transgressions than we have to forgive. Someone not repaying a day's wage is significantly less than someone not repaying several lifetime's wages. And that's the point here. We ought to ask Him to forgive us daily, not because He'll change His mind, but because as a reminder to ourselves that we are forgiven much, and therefore should forgive much.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    My point here is that Christians can still be punished for their sins, under certain circumstances, regardless of their belief in the atoning blood of Jesus. This point is especially strong, when the "exception" to atonement, is something that many many human Christians, would find it difficult to overcome. In this case, what human finds it easy to grant blanket forgiveness upon anyone who has sinned against them, carte blanche??

    If many thousands of lawsuits in the courts of the United States (a mostly Christian country) are being filed daily, what does that say about the ability of Christians to forgive their brothers and sisters?

    I pose that if the so called free gift of atonement in Christ, is in fact conditional upon something that most people find extremely difficult to overcome, then what good is it for general salvation? Put another way... If we knew the number of people eligible to receive atonement and eternal life under the simple "believe in Jesus" plan AND we knew the number of eligible people under the modified "conditional plan" where you need to forgive the world who stepped on you as well, (plus belief in Jesus) in order to be forgiven... would those numbers have dropped significantly?
    It's a tough thing, to forgive people that wrong you. No one can deny that. But this is another "Heart-related" issue. If we truly have the Spirit in us, then we ought to want to forgive. We ought to know and feel and believe that resentment is wrong (this guilt is our grieving the Spirit) and therefore strive to forgive and reaching out to our brothers and sisters for encouragement and counsel where we find it particularly difficult to do so. Jesus had this habit of being blunt force with his wording and as a result, we're left reading between the lines at times. In which case, with the issue of the prayer and subsequent, "Just forgive them a lot, like all the time, Peter" what we're looking at is Jesus implying that a heart of forgiveness is a mark of someone who believes, and a stubborn and unforgiving heart is the mark of someone who does not.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    One more group of verses comes to mind.

    Ephesians 5: 3-6 "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

    Colossians 3:5-11 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

    The message is clear that certain sins will still bring wrath upon Christians and cause them to lose any portion in the kingdom of Christ.
    I disagree here. With Ephesians, Paul is pointing out that those behaviors are the mark of unbelievers. People who aren't saved. Colossians is reiterating the same point. It's not "If you do these, God will hate you because you sinned" it's "If you do this, you are showing yourself as someone who never sincerely confessed."
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Finally (and there is more, but this should be enough to debate for now), why do Christians die, work hard, and have pain during child birth? Although we are going back to what Christians call the "Old Testament" for this question, it does seem relevant since it is an ongoing fact. Besides, it is "original sin", so it is very relevant. The punishment for all mankind because of original sin, is spelled out in Genesis 3.

    Gen 3: 16-19 "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be towards your husband, but he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    If death, working hard for a living, and labor pains, are the punishment for sin.... then why do believing Christians still endure punishment for that sin? The only thing that seems to have happened to alleviate the punishment, is that modern day women have at least overcome the verse that says men will "rule over them". Ironically, the Church has overturned that for Christians with Ephesians 5:24 "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.".
    I would argue that this is a little more complex than what it appears to be. In Romans, the comparison is made here regarding Sin and Salvation through a contrast of Jesus and Adam. Whereas Adam brought death into the world, Jesus brings Life. This would indicate that the death being talked about is eternal death as the Life being talked about is Eternal Life. The physical consequences are a continued reminder that we're living in a broken world that God will eventually correct (which is not necessarily a Christian concept as I believe both Ezekiel and Daniel had visions of a post reconciliation world making it a pre-christian concept). The idea here is that physical pain, toil, labor are all aspects of a now cursed world. That in itself isn't the Sin part. DEATH is the sin part. And I would argue that it's not physical death being referenced but Spiritual death. I say that because of the Tree of Life, which would've made Adam and Eve immortal (Genesis 3:22). Physical death was always a thing. But now it's assured by absence of access to the ToL. In Romans, Paul more or less clarifies this issue of death by way of relating it to Jesus's gift of eternal life, which occurs post mortem. Just like the 2nd Death (Spirital Death) also occurs post mortem.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  2. Thanks RabbiDak thanked for this post
  3. #22
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    The common thread here is that Ananias and Sapphira show themselves to be of a false faith. They were insincere in their profession of faith in Christ and as a result, weren't really saved or else they would have behaved differently. What we're seeing, more or less, is that Ananias and Sapphira in saving for themselves show a lack of faith that God would meet their needs, through their willing to decieve the rest of their church that they aren't of one soul with the church, through their willingness to deny charity to the needy that they lack compassion towards those in need. So the inconsistency here would be for us to declare that they were believers.


    I'm not sure I see an issue here.


    I don't really see a problem here either. We're encouraged to be peacebale, law-abiding citizens. Not just to avoid punishment from authorities, but because lawlessness on our part can have a negative impact on people's perceptions of Jesus.


    Well, we can argue forgiveness, but first we have to accept that whether people forgive everyone or not has no bearing on whether or not we are called to forgive everyone.

    It's a tough thing, to forgive people that wrong you. No one can deny that. But this is another "Heart-related" issue. If we truly have the Spirit in us, then we ought to want to forgive. .....that a heart of forgiveness is a mark of someone who believes, and a stubborn and unforgiving heart is the mark of someone who does not.

    I disagree here. With Ephesians, Paul is pointing out that those behaviors are the mark of unbelievers. People who aren't saved. Colossians is reiterating the same point. It's not "If you do these, God will hate you because you sinned" it's "If you do this, you are showing yourself as someone who never sincerely confessed."

    The idea here is that physical pain, toil, labor are all aspects of a now cursed world.
    I abbreviated your response (in places) to make it easier for me to respond to (without removing anything for the sake of avoiding a strong point).

    Your last answer about the "cursed world" reality being just what it is, regardless of Jesus' sacrifice, seems to be a good attempt. You seem to be saying that because of some Divine plan, Jesus' salvation is going to gradually achieve eternal life, in a wonderful way that could not have been accomplished before, but temporarily, the world will still just suck in certain aspects. And even though the verses plainly seem to reflect that death, birthpangs, and toil, are punishments for sin (which we would expect Jesus to erase) Its ok to wait for that correction until the end times or post afterlife.

    I am going to give in on this one for now, because I cannot prove it wrong offhand, and I do not want to be a nit-picking type. We are searching for the truth right? So I am not going to press this just to be a jerk who likes to harp on every point, merely to look like I am winning LOL.

    However, the real key statement you seem to be making is that a "true Christian" would never actually commit certain crimes. In fact, if he or she did, they are not "true Christians" and they "never confessed (Jesus as their Lord?) " in the first place (at least not with any sincerity; or enough sincerity) .

    So, (I am trying to avoid a strawman here) are you saying:

    1) Everyone is a sinner and all have fallen short.
    2) No one is capable of serving God fully and avoiding sin.
    3) Therefore, everyone is going to die here and in the afterlife (second death)
    4) However, to avoid that, Jesus made a sacrifice so everyone's sin is forgiven.
    5) If you truly accept the sacrifice and accept Jesus as Lord, then you are saved from sin and eternal death. You get eternal life instead.
    6) However, (even if you accept Jesus fully and believe in his blood), if you keep sinning and falling short, you will still get eternal death, regardless of your belief and acceptance, because it proves you are not a "true Christian" after all.

    Is this what you mean? If not, please correct me with the right conclusive version that represents your position.

    Finally, you do not see a problem with Cor 5:10? "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    I will try to spell out the problem in logical form.

    1) The Apostle Paul says "...we must all.." WE modified by ALL is a word-phrase, that logically includes people like Paul, and anyone in his audience. That means the statement is addressed to, and includes "true Christians". You cannot answer the coming contradiction by saying the punished people refer to "not really true Christians".

    2) These "true Christians" will perforce need to be judged by Christ at some point.

    3) The judgment is going to be passed concerning things the believer did while in their Earthly life within the "body".

    4) Not only rewards for good will be given, but "what is due... for evil" will also be dispensed.

    5) A common English phrase that should describe what judgment people receive, that they are due, for having committed evil while in a body, is: "being punished for sin".

    6) Therefore, the verse Corinthians 5:10 clearly states that "true Christian" believers will in the future be punished for sins they committed while they were alive on Earth.

    7) But Jesus' death was supposed to atone once and for all for the sins of any true believer??

    8) Therefore, Jesus' atoning death and Cor 5:10 are inconsistent with each other.

    If not, why not?

    ---------- Post added at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

    This is for PGA2:

    You are either saying that Annanias and Sapphira were not "true Christians", OR

    Annanias and sapphira were "true Christians", but maybe they sinned by a type of sin that caused death?

    The "not true Christians" answer seems to be used by all of the Christians so far in this thread, in one way or another. I do have a question for all of you about that.

    But for now Peter,

    How is it possible that lying and stealing charity money would be punished by death??? Even according to Mosaic Law, such things are only punished by paying a fine. Would the NT prescribe a harsher punishment for a particular sin than the Tanach?? How? Do you have a Scripture for this?
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 14th, 2017 at 09:23 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  4. #23
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Your last answer about the "cursed world" reality being just what it is, regardless of Jesus' sacrifice, seems to be a good attempt. You seem to be saying that because of some Divine plan, Jesus' salvation is going to gradually achieve eternal life, in a wonderful way that could not have been accomplished before, but temporarily, the world will still just suck in certain aspects. And even though the verses plainly seem to reflect that death, birthpangs, and toil, are punishments for sin (which we would expect Jesus to erase) Its ok to wait for that correction until the end times or post afterlife.

    I am going to give in on this one for now, because I cannot prove it wrong offhand, and I do not want to be a nit-picking type. We are searching for the truth right? So I am not going to press this just to be a jerk who likes to harp on every point, merely to look like I am winning LOL.
    By all means, if there's a contention there, don't hold back. If you feel like we'll get stuck, we can shoot that into a separate discussion focus on the original sin topic as its own topic, and reference it back here where needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    However, the real key statement you seem to be making is that a "true Christian" would never actually commit certain crimes. In fact, if he or she did, they are not "true Christians" and they "never confessed (Jesus as their Lord?) " in the first place (at least not with any sincerity; or enough sincerity) .
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So, (I am trying to avoid a strawman here) are you saying:

    1) Everyone is a sinner and all have fallen short.
    2) No one is capable of serving God fully and avoiding sin.
    3) Therefore, everyone is going to die here and in the afterlife (second death)
    4) However, to avoid that, Jesus made a sacrifice so everyone's sin is forgiven.
    5) If you truly accept the sacrifice and accept Jesus as Lord, then you are saved from sin and eternal death. You get eternal life instead.
    6) However, (even if you accept Jesus fully and believe in his blood), if you keep sinning and falling short, you will still get eternal death, regardless of your belief and acceptance, because it proves you are not a "true Christian" after all.

    Is this what you mean? If not, please correct me with the right conclusive version that represents your position.
    In a manner of speaking, you could say that. I'm not a big fan of the terminology "true christian" because to me it's not really any different than saying, "True black guy" or "true gay person". Either someone is or they aren't. And there's a biblical basis for that assessment (the one regarding faith and salvation). 1st John 2:5-6 tells us that if we claim salvation, we ought to be acting in a manner reflective of Jesus. Romans 6:1-4 speaks to the same message. BECAUSE we have died to sin, we shouldn't be living sinfully any longer. This isn't to say we'll lead a perfect life. The authors of the NT repeatedly refer to believers as children, likening faith in Jesus as a lifelong process of spiritual growth that does not finish until after death and resurrection. What I point out with Ananias and Sapphira is that while they seemed to be taking part in the social aspects of the early church, they did so with a kind of odd reserve that would indicate that they didn't really buy into the message. What makes Ananias and Sapphira stand out isn't so much that they did something sinful. It's that they were met with immediate death as a result. And there's multiple interpretations for WHY that happened. It could be that, as I've suggested that they weren't actually believers and were being punished for their falsehood. It could also be that Peter was an imperfect person empowered by the Spirit and acted rashly and did something grievous without giving those people a chance to repent. It could be both. And none of the three, to my knowledge, would be inconsistent here. One scholar even suggests that it's dark humor and wasn't meant to be taken seriously (I haven't read the justification for that view, but I cannot even fathom an instance where that would make sense).

    All I can say for sure is that there's a direct correlation (whether Just or not) between Jesus telling a parable about a man greedily storing up grain and dying, and the couple being discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Finally, you do not see a problem with Cor 5:10? "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    I will try to spell out the problem in logical form.

    1) The Apostle Paul says "...we must all.." WE modified by ALL is a word-phrase, that logically includes people like Paul, and anyone in his audience. That means the statement is addressed to, and includes "true Christians". You cannot answer the coming contradiction by saying the punished people refer to "not really true Christians".

    2) These "true Christians" will perforce need to be judged by Christ at some point.

    3) The judgment is going to be passed concerning things the believer did while in their Earthly life within the "body".

    4) Not only rewards for good will be given, but "what is due... for evil" will also be dispensed.

    5) A common English phrase that should describe what judgment people receive, that they are due, for having committed evil while in a body, is: "being punished for sin".

    6) Therefore, the verse Corinthians 5:10 clearly states that "true Christian" believers will in the future be punished for sins they committed while they were alive on Earth.

    7) But Jesus' death was supposed to atone once and for all for the sins of any true believer??

    8) Therefore, Jesus' atoning death and Cor 5:10 are inconsistent with each other.

    If not, why not?
    I don't see a problem with the passage in question. It's a statement that we see play out in Revelations, where the living and the dead stand before judgment, and the Book of Life is opened. I don't see this as a passage indicating believers will be punished, by as an encouraging reminder that something good is in our future, and an encouragement to bring others to Christ because something bad is in their future. And again, James reinforces the notion of a connection between faith and behavior by arguing that faith without works is dead. Going so far as to challenge his congregation to "Show me your faith witout works and I'll show you my faith by my works." The message here is pretty clear and goes back to Jesus' own "By your works you will know me". If we believe, our actions will reflect a believing heart. If we don't, our actions will reflect one that doesn't.

    There was someone, can't recall who, that argued if we really want to assess our faith, we have to ask ourselves, "If I didn't believe in Jesus, would my life look any different" and if the answer isn't an immediate "YES" then we have a problem that we need to bring to God and resolve.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  5. #24
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    So, my question is this. Do you see the NT talking about effects that are still yet to be seen?
    Do you see some inherent problem with some effects having not taken place yet? .. why?
    Yes I do see the NT talking about effects that are still yet to be seen. I especially see that based on trying to see your position. You have in fact explained the evolution of the spiritual move initiated by Jesus as being a gradual change on what appears to be many levels. Can I agree with your analysis? It might be a viable approach to explain consistent NT philosophy and theology. But I will need to hear more.

    Yes I see inherent problems there,with some effects having not taken place yet . One problem is the Gospel verse John 19:30 "...it is finished...". The Greek original word used here is "tetelestai". This was an ancient term that meant "Paid in Full". It was a Greek accounting term that signified the final payment of a debt. I believe that released prisoners were granted a pass that was stamped with this word.

    The symbolism of John is obvious. Sin, death, hell, Satan etc. was over. OK... now look at the world since the death of Jesus. If I opened a picture dictionary to look up "anti-climax", would we not see an image of the Cross at Calvary? After all, since Jesus, the world has still been filled with death, sin, Satan, hell, and unbelief to name a few. We do need to ask from a theological perspective... what exactly was accomplished? if it was accomplished, then why shlep the entire world for thousands of years in its "unperfected form" that we see?

    Well for definition sake, the minimum required "works", is the kind of works that naturally and inherently flow from true faith. Works do not get you into heaven, or gain you salvation.. that is very clear in NT.
    Now, to the point about God reserving "punishment". What is it that you are thinking about? Because I do belive in a negative effect resulting from sin, namely that those actions will be burned away at the judgment leaving only the gold and silver of the good actions.
    .. not as though one still goes to hell.
    It sounds like you believe in a type of purgatory. Are you saying that only eternal destruction is avoided in Jesus, while all manner of "lesser" evils and "levels" of good will be dealt with via non-eternal judgments? Plus, good deeds will only be preserved at the level they were achieved and not more than that, so that there will be different levels of eternal reward per each believer?

    ps.. Rabbi, I appreciate your taking on this topic, and I have to say that My answer is not going to be fully consistent with a more "reformed" approach to the topic.
    Thanks, I appreciate your candor and respect as well. What do you mean by "reformed"? Could you tell me what your denomination is (if you have in fact chosen one) and in what way that will contrast with the "reformed"?

    ---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    By all means, if there's a contention there, don't hold back. If you feel like we'll get stuck, we can shoot that into a separate discussion focus on the original sin topic as its own topic, and reference it back here where needed.




    In a manner of speaking, you could say that. I'm not a big fan of the terminology "true christian" because to me it's not really any different than saying, "True black guy" or "true gay person". Either someone is or they aren't. And there's a biblical basis for that assessment (the one regarding faith and salvation). 1st John 2:5-6 tells us that if we claim salvation, we ought to be acting in a manner reflective of Jesus. Romans 6:1-4 speaks to the same message. BECAUSE we have died to sin, we shouldn't be living sinfully any longer. This isn't to say we'll lead a perfect life. The authors of the NT repeatedly refer to believers as children, likening faith in Jesus as a lifelong process of spiritual growth that does not finish until after death and resurrection. What I point out with Ananias and Sapphira is that while they seemed to be taking part in the social aspects of the early church, they did so with a kind of odd reserve that would indicate that they didn't really buy into the message. What makes Ananias and Sapphira stand out isn't so much that they did something sinful. It's that they were met with immediate death as a result. And there's multiple interpretations for WHY that happened. It could be that, as I've suggested that they weren't actually believers and were being punished for their falsehood. It could also be that Peter was an imperfect person empowered by the Spirit and acted rashly and did something grievous without giving those people a chance to repent. It could be both. And none of the three, to my knowledge, would be inconsistent here. One scholar even suggests that it's dark humor and wasn't meant to be taken seriously (I haven't read the justification for that view, but I cannot even fathom an instance where that would make sense).

    All I can say for sure is that there's a direct correlation (whether Just or not) between Jesus telling a parable about a man greedily storing up grain and dying, and the couple being discussed.



    I don't see a problem with the passage in question. It's a statement that we see play out in Revelations, where the living and the dead stand before judgment, and the Book of Life is opened. I don't see this as a passage indicating believers will be punished, by as an encouraging reminder that something good is in our future, and an encouragement to bring others to Christ because something bad is in their future. And again, James reinforces the notion of a connection between faith and behavior by arguing that faith without works is dead. Going so far as to challenge his congregation to "Show me your faith witout works and I'll show you my faith by my works." The message here is pretty clear and goes back to Jesus' own "By your works you will know me". If we believe, our actions will reflect a believing heart. If we don't, our actions will reflect one that doesn't.

    There was someone, can't recall who, that argued if we really want to assess our faith, we have to ask ourselves, "If I didn't believe in Jesus, would my life look any different" and if the answer isn't an immediate "YES" then we have a problem that we need to bring to God and resolve.
    Peter was "rash"... you mean Peter murdered two people? If you do believe in this interpretation (it was Peter's fault) does that prove by his fruits that Peter is not a real believer in Jesus? Will Peter face judgment for the deaths of A + S? Will Saint Peter be tossed into the lake of eternal hellfire for this? Interesting potential implication? Dark humor? I am not going there either. But Peter is a sinner? That's a wild one for an NT theologian to handle, wouldn't you think?

    You still don't see a problem with Cor 5:10? What about all the sins done in the body of the true believers before they believed? Doesn't the verse imply that they will face their due for what was done in the body? It says they "ALL" will face judgment.

    BTW, thanks for confirming your opinion that a Christian just will not exhibit certain actions and still be a Christian. Now that I have that and the opinion of the others before in this thread, I can ask about that. I think it will be enlightening.

    ---------- Post added at 04:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 AM ----------

    Upon review of the Christian opinions so far expressed by our posters in this thread, (and all of them have been clear and well-mannered in their posts) They all seem to agree that a real Christian will not commit certain sins (or any sins?) if they truly believe in Christ and truly accept him as Lord and Savior. If they do commit those sins, then they have never really become Christians and they are still dead in their sins as if they never converted to Christianity at all.

    It seems to me that there are some implications here.

    But before launching into that next round of "faith under fire" I want to say something.

    I am a fan of Dennis Prager (an American Jewish right wing conservative political commentator) He is famous for asking people this question:

    "If you were in an American city that you were not familiar with, alone, late at night, and you couldn’t find your car, in a bad neighborhood, and you saw 10 men walking toward you, would you or would you not be relieved to know that they had just attended a Bible class?”

    Of course you would. So before I discuss "Christian sinners" , I want to make it clear, that my Christian friends are among the greatest people in the world.

    OK back to the trenches...

    This question is for Mind Trap, Freund, Mr. Hyde, and PGA2, as well as anyone who wants to chime in who shares their beliefs.

    New Question #1

    Before Jesus, a believer would need to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.

    Now after Jesus, a Christian believer needs to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law AND c) Believe and accept Jesus ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.

    Remember, you have all said that a true Christian will keep God's Law; or they are not really Christians.

    The problem is, life just got harder, not easier! Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the "Good News" that gave everyone new hope? What's the hope?

    New Question #2

    Once you accept Jesus, you should be automatically able to avoid sinning, because you are truly in fellowship, of the Spirit, and will give good fruits. Then why do we see so many Christians sinning?? OH, my bad... those aren't really Christians. (No true Scotsman!) They never believed and accepted Jesus.

    So lets get the list straight:

    If you do not forgive everyone for any crime they may commit against you
    If you lie
    If you commit sexual transgressions
    If you joke frivolously
    If you steal money
    If you covet
    If you neglect to feed the poor
    If you do anything wrong
    If you break secular law

    You are not exhibiting "Christ-like" behavior = your acceptance/belief of Jesus is proven bogus = you are not saved = lake of eternal hellfire for you?
    Unfortunately, we see millions of Christians exhibiting further sinful behavior in this world. So they are not saved? So what did the death of Jesus accomplish practically speaking? Very little it seems.

    Seriously, its easier to be Orthodox Jewish.

    Hebrews 10:26

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    So the NT does prescribe destruction for Christian sinners? If Someone accepted Christ and knew that the Cross atoned, then they somehow kept sinning = raging fire.

    So if you really never accepted Christ = no atonement
    If you accepted him but failed in your sins = no atonement
    If you accepted him and didn't sin?? = Is there anyone like that? What happens to the millions who are not?

    New Question #3

    Romans 7:14-24

    "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."


    Paul is being very honest. He says he is an uncontrollable sinner. Yet he is saved.

    Question? Why is Paul simply not a true Christian? If he is a true Christian, then why is he saved if he keeps on sinning? That isn't Christ like behavior is it? So maybe sinning means you are still a true Christian and you are saved because after all you fell short and you can't help it?

    New Question #4

    Put into logical form:

    1) All men sin. 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"

    2) Sinning is a proof (according to all of you) that the person is not really a Christian, and therefore never really accepted Christ.

    3) John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal
    life.
    Salvation only works for those who believe in Jesus.

    4) According to #1 and #2 above all men sin, and sinning is a proof you never believed. = No one ever believed.

    5) Therefore there are no Christians.

    6) Therefore Jesus died for nothing.

    If not, why not?
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 15th, 2017 at 01:08 AM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  7. #25
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbi
    Yes I do see the NT talking about effects that are still yet to be seen. I especially see that based on trying to see your position. You have in fact explained the evolution of the spiritual move initiated by Jesus as being a gradual change on what appears to be many levels. Can I agree with your analysis? It might be a viable approach to explain consistent NT philosophy and theology. But I will need to hear more.
    Thanks, I appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbi
    Yes I see inherent problems there,with some effects having not taken place yet . One problem is the Gospel verse John 19:30 "...it is finished...". The Greek original word used here is "tetelestai". This was an ancient term that meant "Paid in Full". It was a Greek accounting term that signified the final payment of a debt. I believe that released prisoners were granted a pass that was stamped with this word.

    The symbolism of John is obvious. Sin, death, hell, Satan etc. was over. OK... now look at the world since the death of Jesus. If I opened a picture dictionary to look up "anti-climax", would we not see an image of the Cross at Calvary? After all, since Jesus, the world has still been filled with death, sin, Satan, hell, and unbelief to name a few. We do need to ask from a theological perspective... what exactly was accomplished? if it was accomplished, then why shlep the entire world for thousands of years in its "unperfected form" that we see?
    What was finished-
    I agree that the payment for sin was finished, and the picture the NT gives is that all in "Abraham bosom" were brought to heaven. What is thus finished is the new covenant.
    A covenant of faith in Jesus. This is the completion of the Old Law. (He said he came to fulfill the law not abolish it). He completed the prophesies such as Isaiah 53.

    What isn't finished is the God's relationship and dealing with this world. Thus the "good news" is preached, and people come to salvation which is faith in Jesus Christ.

    The only way I see to avoid this is for the end of the world to be expected at Christs death. However this question would find it's place in dealing with atonement theory.
    Some listed here https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...ntmorris2.html


    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    if it was accomplished, then why shlep the entire world for thousands of years in its "unperfected form" that we see?
    Because salvation is based on relationship. The Debt is payed, but we must have a relationship with Christ. His payment is for the believer not the unbeliever. Or else one would have to hold to universal ism, which is not biblical.


    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    It sounds like you believe in a type of purgatory. Are you saying that only eternal destruction is avoided in Jesus, while all manner of "lesser" evils and "levels" of good will be dealt with via non-eternal judgments? Plus, good deeds will only be preserved at the level they were achieved and not more than that, so that there will be different levels of eternal reward per each believer?
    Not purgatory, that is where the person is burned. But it is clear that our actions will be judged, depicted as burned up.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Thanks, I appreciate your candor and respect as well. What do you mean by "reformed"? Could you tell me what your denomination is (if you have in fact chosen one) and in what way that will contrast with the "reformed"?
    My reformed brothers believe in what is generally called 5 point Calvinism. (it's roots are in Augustine, though my reformed brothers would say it is rooted in Paul).

    Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
    Irresistible Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
    https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

    To draw an accurate distinction would take books worth of discussion. I actually discuss this topic with my RL brother nearly every day. .. so yea lots of material there.
    Basically, I disagree with every point.

    Man is not totally depraved so as to not be able to properly respond to the Gospel
    Election is not unto salvation, but purpose on earth
    Christs atonement was for the whole world, effective for those who believe.
    Grace is resistible, and is probably the greatest resisted thing in all the world.
    Believers can fall away and become reprobate


    While Verses can be given for both sides, these bring vary different implications. Some of the questions you are asking I would love to raise with my reformed brothers, especially the "finished" aspect.
    As they hold that salvation is God choosing people out of a sea of reprobates.

    Not sure if you are unfamiliar with this kind of distinction, or if you were just trying to get my perspective on it.

    ------To answer a question not directed at me --
    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Once you accept Jesus, you should be automatically able to avoid sinning, because you are truly in fellowship, of the Spirit, and will give good fruits. Then why do we see so many Christians sinning?? OH, my bad... those aren't really Christians. (No true Scotsman!) They never believed and accepted Jesus.

    So lets get the list straight:

    If you do not forgive everyone for any crime they may commit against you
    If you lie
    If you commit sexual transgressions
    If you joke frivolously
    If you steal money
    If you covet
    If you neglect to feed the poor
    If you do anything wrong
    If you break secular law

    You are not exhibiting "Christ-like" behavior = your acceptance/belief of Jesus is proven bogus = you are not saved = lake of eternal hellfire for you?
    Unfortunately, we see millions of Christians exhibiting further sinful behavior in this world. So they are not saved? So what did the death of Jesus accomplish practically speaking? Very little it seems.

    Seriously, its easier to be Orthodox Jewish.
    First, we don't say that anyone who sins is thus not a Christian, because we recognize that all men sin.
    We hold that No christian can continue in habitual sin, and sins that lead to death.
    1 John Chapter 2(basically the whole book), is a good reading on this. But notice it is centered around love. Love your brother is the command. And can we call a habitual rapist a Christian, simply because he "believes"?
    In what way does he believe? This is not works based where you must hug 3 people a day or else your not good enough. Your actions must be driven by Love. It is relational not law.

    That is the good news. Finally, we are promised an escape to all sin. So that when we are tempted we can have confidence that God has given us a means of escaping it.

    Personally, I am not keen on saying who is and who is not a Christian, I see that as God's job. However, when you present an example where a so called "christian" is acting like the devil, and not in some minor way, but major Character issues. I can see how a christian may fall into adultery, or theft of various kinds, I can not see how a Christian would fall into rape, or murder. I also don't expect a real christian to continue in adultery, or continue in habitual theft. However you are right that we see so called "Christians" taking part in all kinds of sin, habitual and otherwise.

    To this I can only say, that it is much more probable that there are a lot fewer real Christians, especially if we compare the church today, with the early church that was so different from the culture around them.. where as now Christians blend in.
    I say this difference is based in our failure to truly love our brothers and sisters.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  9. #26
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Thanks MT, for the page to the Leon Morris article. Nice.

    Yes the questions 1-4 were for you and the other three Christians who answered so far (if they want to answer).

    I am familiar with some Christian history and theory among its denominations, but I enjoy learning more. yes, I do want your perspective. Besides, I always value the opinion of a Libertarian.

    First, we don't say that anyone who sins is thus not a Christian, because we recognize that all men sin.
    We hold that No christian can continue in habitual sin, and sins that lead to death.
    1 John Chapter 2(basically the whole book), is a good reading on this. But notice it is centered around love. Love your brother is the command. And can we call a habitual rapist a Christian, simply because he "believes"?
    In what way does he believe? This is not works based where you must hug 3 people a day or else your not good enough. Your actions must be driven by Love. It is relational not law.

    That is the good news. Finally, we are promised an escape to all sin. So that when we are tempted we can have confidence that God has given us a means of escaping it.

    Personally, I am not keen on saying who is and who is not a Christian, I see that as God's job. However, when you present an example where a so called "christian" is acting like the devil, and not in some minor way, but major Character issues. I can see how a christian may fall into adultery, or theft of various kinds, I can not see how a Christian would fall into rape, or murder. I also don't expect a real christian to continue in adultery, or continue in habitual theft. However you are right that we see so called "Christians" taking part in all kinds of sin, habitual and otherwise.

    To this I can only say, that it is much more probable that there are a lot fewer real Christians, especially if we compare the church today, with the early church that was so different from the culture around them.. where as now Christians blend in.
    I say this difference is based in our failure to truly love our brothers and sisters.
    I want to respond to this with some effort so I am holding off just now. It is a solid expression that should be understood and examined.

    BTW, you told me you are not a 5 point Calvinist (thank God! ha ha ... I find Calvinists in general to be at risk to a lot of failings.. no offense I hope) but what would you call yourself? For instance, I am a Chassidic Jew from Chabad.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  11. #27
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Question #1 -
    First, before Christ came there were no sacrifices for sin. In other words, the blood of animals did not pay for sin, they were only a shadow and a picture of things to come.
    So the good news is firt that our sins have been payed for, attoned.
    Second, the Old law, came to convict man of sin. Because no one can keep the full law. For if you fail to follow one you are subject to all of it. Which of course we all do.

    So now the old law is completed and we are under a new law. The law of Grace through faith.

    That is not harder as the former was impossible by definition. Now faith is fully in our reach, and from faith flows obedience.


    Question #2 I answered so I won't repeat, but I do appreciate your thoughtful response.

    Questin #3 - Paul the sinner.
    Paul is drawing a contrast between the old law and the new law. He concludes all he has said in chapter 7 with "Romans 8:1 There is therfore now no condenatn to those who are in christ jesus, who don't walk accoring to the flesh, but according to the spirit".

    So why is Paul a Christian? not because he was able to keep the whole law, but because he walked according to the spirit.

    That said, it isn't clear what sin Paul is attesting to, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't rape (which is the example we were discussing earlier)

    quetion #4 -
    1) That man sins at all is not proof of not bein a christian, non have said that once you are a christian you do not sin at all.
    What is said, is that there is some fruit of true belief. Namely loving your brother. So then in what way is one who does not walk in love to his brother a Christian?

    2) To me, certain sins are proof that a person is not a Christian. Can a person who claims to be a follower of Christ be a serial rapist and murderer? Far be it, those are actions opposite of Brotherly love.
    For one such as this we can say that the love of God is not in him. (as 1 john does).

    3) What about sin at all? Well we know all men sin, even christians. What difference does a Christian have over the "unsaved"?
    The main difference is that A christian doesn't have to sin, or be ruled by his flesh. He is called to be ruled by the spirit placed in him.
    But beyond that when he does sin, he has an advocate with the Father. Not all Chrisitans walk in victory, because relationships don't work like that. never the less, Christ has presented victory to everone.


    --- What do I call myself?
    I was raised Baptist, and moved to a non-denominational church.
    For a time I was so repulsed by the condition of the church in general that I really didn't want to be called a Christian.
    Not to be seperated from being identified with Christ but disassociate myself with most who profess to be his follower.

    With my exposure to Calvanism, and the subsiquent accusations of being Arminian, or simi-palagan, I still mostly identify as a Christian
    with a lot of current interest in what the early church practiced... minus all the marterdom.

    So non-denominational is as best I can get.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  12. #28
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    I'll wade in here with my totally secular apologetics for the Christian faith and give my best answer to the thread question.

    Plain Answer: Yes

    Reasoning as follows
    Since the Fall of man to the Coming of Jesus all men were damned to spiritual destruction (except Enoch because he's a stud). The Jewish people have a long struggle in the earthly realm, trying to measure up to God's very high standards and failing. If they could get things sorted out, they might find a kind of earthly redemption. That didn't work out.

    Jesus comes along as a spiritual sacrifice trump card. Now, there is a window through which anyone can avoid spiritual death. You have to have faith and accept the sacrifice to qualify for the special deal. Otherwise, its a non-starter. Once you accept the bargain, you also need to walk a path of righteousness so you can be judged worthy. Keep in mind, that it's not being worthy that gets you a second chance, that is just to get past the bouncer. You could be the worthyest of the worthy, but that is not what allows you to avoid spiritual death, that is only available via Jesus and his sacrifice.

    Why does this story work?
    A. Because through faith alone do you get a chance at eternal life? No faith, no chance. You can't win it if you ain't in it.
    B. Works and righteousness (which are taught from stem to stern in new and OT) still matter a lot. Judgement is still coming. The Jesus factor is basically just making our chances better than zero. It is still a narrow gate, but a gate rather than just a wall.

    And clearly, you can have faith and be a true Christian believer, but still fall well short of eternal reward by virtue of being morally weak and actively sinful, or even just insufficiently awesome.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Peter was "rash"... you mean Peter murdered two people? If you do believe in this interpretation (it was Peter's fault) does that prove by his fruits that Peter is not a real believer in Jesus? Will Peter face judgment for the deaths of A + S? Will Saint Peter be tossed into the lake of eternal hellfire for this? Interesting potential implication? Dark humor? I am not going there either. But Peter is a sinner? That's a wild one for an NT theologian to handle, wouldn't you think?

    You still don't see a problem with Cor 5:10? What about all the sins done in the body of the true believers before they believed? Doesn't the verse imply that they will face their due for what was done in the body? It says they "ALL" will face judgment.

    BTW, thanks for confirming your opinion that a Christian just will not exhibit certain actions and still be a Christian. Now that I have that and the opinion of the others before in this thread, I can ask about that. I think it will be enlightening.
    I'm not sure I believe that interpretation (regarding Peter). But an important aspect of the NT is not "white-washing" character flaws. There's a reference of John (called the apostle of love) asking if Jesus wanted him to call down fire on some people who rejected Jesus. Luke refers to Peter as being "out of his mind" when he starts talking about building tents for Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration. There's the multiple times Jesus looks at the disciples and questions if he's getting through to them (How do you still not see? How much longer do I have to be with you? Etc). These moments of frustration and embarassment remind us that those early church fathers were still human, and capable of making mistakes and doing the wrong thing. So while I'm not saying I accept THAT particular view, I don't necessarily see it as a view that wouldn't make sense. My personal take is that there was something unique in the Ananias and Sapphira case that led to the result it did. I tend towards seeing it as an issue of them having never really accepted Christ and as a result, doing what they were for show (something Jesus repeatedly criticized in the Sermon on the Mount), acting greedily and showing a lack of faith in God. Just a multitude of things smushed together that culminated in that specific moment.

    With 2nd Corinthians 5:10, we don't have to concern ourselves with sins prior or post salvation because the nature of salvation is that all sins are covered. Everything you would do and have done has already been forgiven. What the Apostles talk about, and the books of the new testament discuss, is that we should be constantly striving to be more Christ-like every day. There's an in-born expectation that at some point we'll fail, probably more than once. But God renews His mercies for us every day. Like the prayer Jesus talks about, it's a constant reminder that we should be striving to be better because God has given us a great and continual gift. Our pre-salvation sins are already dealt with. And again, once we reach Judgment, as we stand before the throne, we have Christ interceding on our behalf.


    Upon review of the Christian opinions so far expressed by our posters in this thread, (and all of them have been clear and well-mannered in their posts) They all seem to agree that a real Christian will not commit certain sins (or any sins?) if they truly believe in Christ and truly accept him as Lord and Savior. If they do commit those sins, then they have never really become Christians and they are still dead in their sins as if they never converted to Christianity at all.
    I think I see the problem here. My wording has been poor. I'm speaking to the issue in negative terminology. So let me try to word it differently. It's not that we should expect a sin-free perfect life. But we should expect to see a willingness and desire to be better. We should expect to see someone open to instruction and criticism, that reaches out for help, desires to do good, etc. Even if we fail, a good barometer would be that others would see those qualities in us.

    New Question #1

    Before Jesus, a believer would need to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.

    Now after Jesus, a Christian believer needs to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law AND c) Believe and accept Jesus ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.

    Remember, you have all said that a true Christian will keep God's Law; or they are not really Christians.

    The problem is, life just got harder, not easier! Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the "Good News" that gave everyone new hope? What's the hope?
    We get some clarity on that. What Paul talks about in Romans is that it's impossible to keep the Law. The whole point of the Law was to illustrate to man that it is impossible for a man on his own to keep God's commands and as a result, show that all men are sinners. The Good News is that we fulfill the requirements of the Law through faith in Christ. A really simplistic way to look at it would be that I don't have to go out and find a ram to sacrifice as a sin offering because I already have Jesus as the ultimate sin offering.

    New Question #2

    Once you accept Jesus, you should be automatically able to avoid sinning, because you are truly in fellowship, of the Spirit, and will give good fruits. Then why do we see so many Christians sinning?? OH, my bad... those aren't really Christians. (No true Scotsman!) They never believed and accepted Jesus.
    Fair point. But again, I think that's something we should expect to see, to a degree. Though I would argue that there are definitely a number of people going to church on sunday for reasons totally divorced from worship. Language wise, I know for myself I can get caught up in using defensive terminology rather than honest terminology by default because the tone is one of "One of us is right and one of us is wrong" rather than "I'll just explain it as I understand it" and I think it may be doing a disservice here.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    OK, so I now have a good picture of Mind Trap's and Mr. Hyde's positions. (helped in presentation by Sigfried who sounds similar )

    Debate-wise, I want to show my cards. My opinion is that the OP is a challenge because the more one takes the horn that the New Covenant is all encompassing (complete atonement, for all sin, no matter what , through Jesus etc.) the more we encounter a) conflicts with the plain meaning of some Scriptures, and b) conflict with common sense and facts on the ground about human nature. If we take the second horn that the NT promise is very conditional so as to allow for a Scriptural middle ground and common sense (you cannot be a rapist and a Christian at the same time etc.) then we perforce run the risk of reducing the value of Christ's atonement on the Cross; even to the point that we might raise the question of who really needs the atonement of Jesus after all? AND maybe Jesus cannot practically reach most people; so .... Why not just be a good person without Christianity and take your chances with God straight?

    IOW, I think we have shown that if the Christian cannot be punished for sinning at all, then NT Scripture will not make sense, and being a Christian will not make sense either.

    I feel so far that you have successfully avoided the first horn (for the most part) by creating an honest picture of a true Christian (who still needs to deal with sin on some levels) and admitting that following Christ is a lot tougher than is commonly taught by some.

    Now IMHO we should push the second horn and see if your position can survive while also preserving the value of the Cross and making Jesus relevant. I see that you already believe that to be true of course. But I think some of your answers until now have raised a question or two on this and I will draw on those answers (especially your answers I have not yet commented on) to test the position. I will surely understand you guys better by doing so. TY in advance if you still have the time to entertain me on this.

    I am missing some information which I think we need, to avoid a straw man. What I ask below is needed so we can truly understand your position on sin.

    1) Do you have a Scriptural list that you hold to be true which spells out the name of each sin and the various levels of sin and their punishments? Is lying worse than arson? Is murder as bad as eating pork or eating what has been strangled? Is there a difference between crimes against God vs. crimes against man? What are the different punishments? Lake of eternal fire, physical death, spiritual seperation and death, flogging, fine, kicked out of the Church, ??? Which sin gets what? How do you know?

    How do we know if a Christian's sin is big enough to prove he is not a true Christian? Is habitually repeating any sin big enough to prove one is not a Christian? What about small sins?

    2) If all men sin and the wages of sin are death, then how can you say there are bigger and smaller sins or categories of sin at all? Isn't it all death? Do you say that lying to your boss is just as bad as rape? Are you saying that lying once in your life or raping ten people would have both gotten you the eternal lake of fire pre-Jesus? If so, why does that make sense??

    3) Where do you get the understanding that God would totally destroy forever a soul that commits any small sin once in their life, even with repentance, in the pre-Jesus era? Is there a true Scriptural source for this idea?

    4) You say you are no longer under "the Law" (I assume you mean the Torah of Moses), yet you also say that a Christian who sins (example: rape) cannot really be a Christian. Why not? Isn't rape forbidden by the "Law"? If you are no longer under the Law, then why is rape a sin?

    So if you say you are just not under the "punishment" of the Law but still must obey the Law. then why do you think rape is still relevant while the Sabbath is not? Where did the NT get the right to pick and choose which laws would survive as obligatory and which would no longer be binding?? Where is the Scripture for this?

    5) Sorry, I know I asked for a lot, but I will make this one extra credit... .... what in the world is "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" ??? Can you define that???

    TY
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    But for now Peter,

    [1]How is it possible that lying and stealing charity money would be punished by death??? Even according to Mosaic Law, such things are only punished by paying a fine. [2]Would the NT prescribe a harsher punishment for a particular sin than the Tanach?? [3]How? [4]Do you have a Scripture for this?
    Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughtfulness!
    I have a very long response (sorry).

    [1] What verse are you using as an example, please?

    Sin was always punishable by death, separation from God (for God's nature is holy and pure, as you know), unless an atonement is provided. The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin until a sacrifice that could remove sin was made. It was a substitutionary offering that represented the person who sinned. That person should have been in the place of the animal, but God provided a sacrifice of atonement to cover his sin until the day when God took that provision out of the way and replaced it with a better sacrifice, a permanent one.

    Leviticus 17:11 (NASB)
    11*For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’


    Blood gives our bodies life. Without it, we are physically dead. Spiritually, the blood of Jesus gives us spiritual life. That sacrifice is sufficient to atone for our sins (all our sins) and set us right with God. Thus, God's principle, the substitution of one life for another, is observed in both Covenants.

    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    Sin, in the form of a lie or stealing, is not acceptable in God's presence (Exodus 20:15-15; 24:3). It needs atonement (as I will lay out shortly - see below) .

    Psalm 5:4-5 (NASB)
    4*
    For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
    No evil dwells with You.
    5*
    The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
    You hate all who do iniquity.


    Here is a portion of God's contract or covenant with Israel. He required holiness:

    Leviticus 19:2 (NASB)
    2*“Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.


    Thus, the sin offering is needed to meet the requirements of the Law, a sin offering that could not be made by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement after A.D 70 (as stipulated by the Law), nor could any of the other sin or guilt offerings REQUIRED.

    Leviticus 4 (NASB)
    The Law of Sin Offerings
    4*Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2*“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them, 3*if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer to the Lord a bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4*He shall bring the bull to the doorway of the tent of meeting before the Lord, and he shall lay his hand on the head of the bull and slay the bull before the Lord...
    13*‘Now if the whole congregation of Israel commits error and the matter escapes the notice of the assembly, and they commit any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and they become guilty; 14*when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a bull of the herd for a sin offering and bring it before the tent of meeting....
    22*‘When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the Lord his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty, 23*if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect. 24*He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the Lord; it is a sin offering. 25*Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering....
    27*‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28*if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29*He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering....
    32*‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33*He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering.

    Leviticus 5, the Guilt Offering:
    4*Or if a person swears thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, in whatever matter a man may speak thoughtlessly with an oath, and it is hidden from him, and then he comes to know it, he will be guilty in one of these. 5*So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned. 6*He shall also bring his guilt offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin. 7*‘But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the Lord his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8*He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it....11*‘But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering. 12*He shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as its memorial portion and offer it up in smoke on the altar, with the offerings of the Lord by fire: it is a sin offering...17*“Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. 18*He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him. 19*It is a guilt offering; he was certainly guilty before the Lord.”



    Leviticus 6 (NASB)
    Guilt Offering
    6*Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2*“When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the Lord, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion, 3*or has found what was lost and lied about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins in regard to any one of the things a man may do; 4*then it shall be, when he sins and becomes guilty, that he shall restore what he took by robbery or what he got by extortion, or the deposit which was entrusted to him or the lost thing which he found, 5*or anything about which he swore falsely; he shall make restitution for it in full and add to it one-fifth more. He shall give it to the one to whom it belongs on the day he presents his guilt offering. 6*Then he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the Lord, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering, 7*and the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt.”

    How is this being met today? If it is, where did God inform you/us in SCRIPTURE that He changed His covenant? Remember, the people agreed to do everything that the LORD cammanded them to do.

    Leviticus 16, The Day of Atonement:
    15*“Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16*He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities. 17*When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.... 20*“When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21*Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22*The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness....27*But the bull of the sin offering and the goat of the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be taken outside the camp, and they shall burn their hides, their flesh, and their refuse in the fire....

    An Annual Atonement
    29*“This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you; 30*for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31*It is to be a sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute. 32*So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33*and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34*Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.” And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.


    Why is this not done today? It is a permanent statute. Why is Israel not obeying the LORD God?

    Why? Because they can't. That covenant no longer exists. It has not existed since A.D. 70.

    Where is any of this being practiced by the Jews today? The mediator, the priest or high priest, could not follow the Law after A.D. 70. What does that tell you about the Law? It says to me that the Law was either changed or abrogated.

    Where is your high priest today?
    Where is the RECORD that traces him back to Arron?

    [2] The costly answer for sin to avoid punishment is the same - atonement - just a better one, as Hebrews 10:8-10 laid out. The NT sacrifice is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One, God's chosen! He is a High Priest in the order of Melchizidek. Yeshua's sin offering is better that the Levitical offering. In Adam, a man sinned against God, and thus, a man should pay for his sin. But God is graceful! The Mosaic Covenant offers animals as a provision until a righteous man was able to take away sins. Animals did not bring death into the world, to humanity (separation from that close personal relationship with God), a man did. Thus, a man needs to live the righteous life Adam failed to live before God to restore that perfect relationship with God. A man was required to pay the penalty for sin (each man, in fact, that did not meet the requirements of the OT Law, which resulted in death/separation). Adam's sin resulted in the Fall of humanity. Yeshua's sacrifice results in the redemption of humanity (those who trust in His sacrifice). Eden was restored.

    Romans 3:10*as it is written,
    “There is none righteous, not even one;
    11*
    There is none who understands,
    There is none who seeks for God;
    12*
    All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
    There is none who does good,
    There is not even one.”
    13*
    “Their throat is an open grave,
    With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
    “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
    14*
    “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
    15*
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
    16*
    Destruction and misery are in their paths,
    17*
    And the path of peace they have not known.”
    18*
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    19*Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20*because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
    Justification by Faith
    21*But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22*even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23*for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24*being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25*whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26*for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Your sins (to the Jew first did God offer this redemption), as well as the sins of the Gentiles, are met in Yeshua, if you believe!

    [3] I think the penalty was harsher for Israel, according to the NT Scriptures (not true Israel of course, which is a spiritual Israel made up of Jews and Gentiles - Jeremiah 31:31; Hebrews 8:8-13; 10:15-18). OT Israel rejected their Messiah; the one means that God has given that satisfied both His justice and His righteousness.

    Yeshua used many parables to OT Israel to convey this penalty for those who rejected their Messiah. For instance (I will sub some words in [brackets]:

    Matthew 22 (NASB)
    Parable of the Marriage Feast
    22*Jesus spoke to them
    [chief priests and the Pharisees/OT Israel, per 21:46; Matthew 3:1-12] again in parables, saying, 2*“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son [Yeshua]. 3*And he sent out his slaves [the prophets] to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they [chief priest, Pharisees, OT Israel] were unwilling to come. 4*Again he sent out other slaves [NT disciples/apostles] saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited [Israel], “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5*But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6*and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them [killing of the prophets and teachers sent to Israel]. 7*But the king [Yahweh] was enraged, and he sent his armies [the Romans] and destroyed those murderers [of Yeshua] and set their city on fire [destruction of Jerusalem]. 8*Then he *said to his slaves [those who received the message regarding Yeshua], ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited [OT Israel] were not worthy. 9*Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10*Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests [the wedding of the Lamb of God/Yeshua].
    11*“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes
    [did not use the prescibed invitation - John 3:16], 12*and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13*Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14*For many are called, but few are chosen.”


    Much more could be said on Jerusalem as it relates to the OT. The Olivet Discourse is the discourse that leads up do the destruction of the OT economy. Revelation is John's account of the discourse (Matthew 24:3; Luke 21:20-24).

    Other parables - See also Matthew 21:33-46.

    I could go through the NT pointing out over and over again how OT prophecy is being fulfilled in both parables and prophecy because the NT builds on OT Scripture.

    So, the NT prescribes a harsher punishment in that those who ignore the more significant sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23) because it rejects the Son. The penlty -> the Lake of Fire ( which I believe is separation from God and His blessing forever).

    The reason I think it is more severe is that although Israel had been disobedient to God before in the OT, and had been exiled, God was now fulfilling all righteousness so that Israel (those who would believe) would be blessed and saved. They rebelled and rejected that provision - the Son of God, the Messiah. The OT speaks of the "last days," "the/that day," "the latter times," etc.

    Deuteronomy 6:25
    It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.



    OT Israel never met those requirements, and even the faithful few who did were looking forward to the better covenant.

    [4] Romans 1:28-32; 1 Corinithians 6:9; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 22:15, 18-19.

    Your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. Just like in the OT where God reckoned righteousness to Abraham, the father of the faithful (Genesis 15:5-7), so in the NT the one who believes in Yeshua is considered righteous; not our own, but His.

    Romans 3:21-22; 4:2-23; Romans 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 1:11; Philippians 3:9; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Peter 1:1.


    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    @Peter,

    Looks like you double posted.

    I was thinking of Leviticus 6:5. It says that if someone swore falsely, lied, and stole, that he makes restitution to the party by paying the value plus a fifth, as a fine. You brought those verses too.

    You also show that the sinner offers an animal as a Temple offering for his sin. This is true. However, it does not mean that the sinner would die if he didn't bring the animal. The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Also, not every sin listed in the Torah is obligated in an animal sacrifice. So what did the sinner do then?? Die? What about if the fellow lived far from the Temple and couldn't travel there? He dies? Where does the Bible even say that?? Rather if the Bible says an animal is all you need and it doesn't say that the sinner dies without the animal, then plainly the animal is not that major of a deal.

    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    This verse that you bring from the NT is not accepted as truth by Jews. Our reasoning is that there are many things which affect atonement in the Torah without blood. You yourself said in your answer above: "...The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin..". Grain offerings do not contain blood!? How does it cover sin? There are many other cases in the Jewish Bible that show atonement for sin without blood.

    Furthermore, Annanias and Sapphira could have brought an animal as a sin offering to the Temple! They lived with Peter in Jerusalem in Acts while the Temple still stood! Why did they need to be struck down dead instantly?

    And even if you say A + S were not "real believers" and they were not able to access the atonement of the Cross, they could have been instructed to repent and believe first? And even if you will say that Jesus replaced animals, still the "unbelieving" A + S could still bring a Temple animal offering. We see this is possible for a Christian believer of that time since Paul in Acts 21 (and by his defense in 24) agreed to purify himself with 4 believers who were Nazirites. He even paid for their offerings which included sin offerings at the Temple, even years after Jesus died on the Cross!

    Finally, you even brought this verse in a previous post above: 1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

    Even the NT makes a difference between sins that are punished by death and sins that are not punished by death. Not every sin = death.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  20. #33
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi Dak
    Debate-wise, I want to show my cards. My opinion is that the OP is a challenge because the more one takes the horn that the New Covenant is all encompassing (complete atonement, for all sin, no matter what , through Jesus etc.) the more we encounter a) conflicts with the plain meaning of some Scriptures, and b) conflict with common sense and facts on the ground about human nature. If we take the second horn that the NT promise is very conditional so as to allow for a Scriptural middle ground and common sense (you cannot be a rapist and a Christian at the same time etc.) then we perforce run the risk of reducing the value of Christ's atonement on the Cross; even to the point that we might raise the question of who really needs the atonement of Jesus after all? AND maybe Jesus cannot practically reach most people; so .... Why not just be a good person without Christianity and take your chances with God straight?
    Thanks for the Thread, and posts. It is a very interesting proposition.

    If I could try to summarize my middle ground between those two, it is first to say that some things are paid for, but yet to be accomplished.
    For example our bodily death, Christ did purchase for us a new body immune from death, and that is in the future. To me this is because physical death is not an issue for the saved.
    There is simply nothing wrong or negative about death once the destination is eternal life. (Matthew 10:39 16:25 ). So the claim that Jesus Conquered death, and death has no sting, is worked out in that way.
    There is another aspect more related to your question, which is a renewed mind and spirit. No doubt part of that is accomplished at the resurection, but A true christian is one that has the Holy Spirit living inside of him.
    I think the NT is very clear that such a person can sin so as to lose their salvation, there are simply too many warnings about this. So we can't say that Christ has made it so that they can't possibly sin. I think however he changed the nature of our relationship
    to sin. Where as before salvation we were slaves to sin, with no defense against it or any of its effects. Now a Christian who rebels again is like Adam and the Devil, leaving a once proper relationship... his condition is indeed worse than where he started. (2Peter 2:20-22)
    Now in Christ we have the option to not sin, to have habitual sin broken in our lives and for us to fulfill the command given to cain (Gen 4:7). So as much as we are in Christ, we walk apart from sin. To walk in Christ is to love your neighbor, your enemy etc, and what sin comes from that? (non I would say).
    So then we have two extremes, a Christian who can sin so grievously that he profains the name of Christ so as to be lost, and worse off, and one who walks blameless and without sin. Even if a person ends on the latter, it is a process over a lifetime (or some time). So what about the OP's application to that?
    Basically Christ is able to save such a person from eternal death, but their evil deeds will be judged and burned up, while the persons life is preserved. Salvation means that you are changed from an enemy to a servant, and the final judgment is of how good a servant you have been, not if you are to enter heaven or not.
    See the parable of the talents. (Matthew 25:14-30).

    So, I will try to stay consistent with that overview, but I can't really claim to have it perfectly expressed. It isn't something I have thought about in this way.


    Question #1 -
    The NT talks about sins that are unto death. (1 John 5:16). Which I take as a reference to (2Peter 2:20). So, there is something, which I think is a turning away from God. IMO anything short of that is covered. I think it is attitudinal and relationship based
    not action based. So, a person may committed that sin when they rape a girl.. or maybe they do not. It's more about the relationship with God, though I think we are justified in questioning the persons salvation regardless, but that is really about our knowledge of others salvation, and that puts us on shaky ground. After all,
    God judges the heart. So the worst sin, is rejecting God, no matter the state of salvation, and no matter the type of sin that it is exemplified by.

    Question #2 -
    The problem with sin, is that God is Holy. Sin can not survive in the presence of God. Should we stand before God with sin on us, uncleaned we would be in torment. What person from the OT stood before God without falling to the ground in shame.. and weren't they righteous men? What greater shame would an unrighteous person experience?
    The one who says "a little white lie isn't really that bad" does not understand the magnitude of the Holiness of God. So sin is all death, and that death is separation from right relationship with God.

    Question #3 -
    Quote Originally Posted by rabbi dak
    3) Where do you get the understanding that God would totally destroy forever a soul that commits any small sin once in their life, even with repentance, in the pre-Jesus era? Is there a true Scriptural source for this idea?
    I don't think I would hold that view, as we are called to repent. So my answer, and the quotes below are in regards to UN-repentant sin of any kind.

    Ezekiel 18:20 - 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Ezekiel 33:12-16 "12“Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live."

    John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"
    John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
    Question #4 -

    The law that is referred to is "The law of sin and death".(Romans 8:2) So, the OT law, tells us what sin is, the consequence is spiritual death. IE Eternal Separation from God.
    Christ came and freed us from that. Sin is still sin, as the OT law is still true. Jesus didn't abolish the law (Matthew 5:17). He full filled it's requirement for our death.
    So now we are free to have life in Jesus Christ. In Christ we can abide with the father. Before Christ this was impossible. Such that, it is my belief that people pre-Christ did not go to heaven.
    They went to Abraham's bosom, which Christ emptied when he rose from the dead. https://rightdivision.com/charts/alp...om-or-paradise

    A christian must bare fruit. (Galatians 5:13-26) If they do not they are cut off. (John 15:2)



    A summation of what it means to be a Christian
    Galations 5:6 "6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI DAK
    5) Sorry, I know I asked for a lot, but I will make this one extra credit... .... what in the world is "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" ??? Can you define that???
    Mark 3:23-29 This occurs in response to the teachers of the law saying that Jesus Casts out the devil, by the power of the Devil.

    So IMO that is what it is referencing. Calling God the Devil, Good evil, is blaspheming the holy spirit.

    I think again it is an attitude thing, not simply an utterance of a phrase.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    1) Do you have a Scriptural list that you hold to be true which spells out the name of each sin and the various levels of sin and their punishments? Is lying worse than arson? Is murder as bad as eating pork or eating what has been strangled? Is there a difference between crimes against God vs. crimes against man? What are the different punishments? Lake of eternal fire, physical death, spiritual seperation and death, flogging, fine, kicked out of the Church, ??? Which sin gets what? How do you know?
    I don't keep a catalogue of things like that. My view has been that apparently some sins are worse than others (there's some verses on that, can't recall where though at the moment) but Jesus tells us that getting angry with someone is no different than murder, and having lusty thoughts is no different than adultery, so ultimately, whether some are worse or not doesn't really matter if no matter how small it is, it's still a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    How do we know if a Christian's sin is big enough to prove he is not a true Christian? Is habitually repeating any sin big enough to prove one is not a Christian? What about small sins?
    This is a tricky issue. I couldn't say for sure one way or another. But if someone tells me they're doing something wrong, repeatedly, and enjoy it, then I'm inclined to ask them how they make that and their faith function cooperatively.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    2) If all men sin and the wages of sin are death, then how can you say there are bigger and smaller sins or categories of sin at all? Isn't it all death? Do you say that lying to your boss is just as bad as rape? Are you saying that lying once in your life or raping ten people would have both gotten you the eternal lake of fire pre-Jesus? If so, why does that make sense??
    Can't really say for sure, other than one of David's Psalms making it clear that, big picture wise, all sin is a sin against God. Doesn't really matter how big or small, because we're wronging the All-Father.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    3) Where do you get the understanding that God would totally destroy forever a soul that commits any small sin once in their life, even with repentance, in the pre-Jesus era? Is there a true Scriptural source for this idea?
    It comes from a culmination of things. When you read that anyone unsaved is condemned. And then read that all those condemned will be destroyed. It just kind of follows that one who is unsaved will be destroyed. It's late, so I'll have to reply next this weekend if you want specifics (which you seem to be wanting).
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    4) You say you are no longer under "the Law" (I assume you mean the Torah of Moses), yet you also say that a Christian who sins (example: rape) cannot really be a Christian. Why not? Isn't rape forbidden by the "Law"? If you are no longer under the Law, then why is rape a sin?

    So if you say you are just not under the "punishment" of the Law but still must obey the Law. then why do you think rape is still relevant while the Sabbath is not? Where did the NT get the right to pick and choose which laws would survive as obligatory and which would no longer be binding?? Where is the Scripture for this?
    I think the wording on the subject of the Law in scripture might come across as unclear. Paul clarifies it a bit in Galatians when he talks to the church there about demanding people be circumsised. What he's getting at is that by saying we're no longer under the Law, he's saying if you accept Jesus, you no longer need to be concerned with eating certain kinds of meats, or not working on the Sabbath, etc but those wrong actions are still wrong actions, IE murder and rape because they stem from a place of evil within man. So while I may not be under the Law, it isn't because the Law says murder is evil that murder is evil. It was always evil. The Law just revealed it to us in a way as to express that no man can abide by those regulations apart from God's intervention.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    5) Sorry, I know I asked for a lot, but I will make this one extra credit... .... what in the world is "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" ??? Can you define that???

    TY
    I've got no clue.

    Again, it's late and I work super duper early. So after this post (which shouldn't be taken as set in stone) I won't be back on until this weekend. So if there's a contention here, let me know and I'll try to clear it up because I can't guarantee I'm speaking clearly or coherently.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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  23. #35
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    New Question #1

    Before Jesus, a believer would need to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.
    True, a covenant of works (i.e., Mosaic Covenant) where the onus was on the believer meriting their salvation and right standing before God by what they did.
    If...then.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Now after Jesus, a Christian believer needs to a) Believe in God b) Keep God's Law AND c) Believe and accept Jesus ; in order to achieve eternal salvation.
    Jesus, on behalf of the believer, has kept God's righteous Law. God looks at His works of righteousness in saving us, as our substitute, not our own, therefore, our works of righteousness to salvation is not based on what we do to merit salvation. It depends on Yeshua's merit and righteousness!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Remember, you have all said that a true Christian will keep God's Law; or they are not really Christians.
    Three things come to mind:

    1) We keep the Law in Yeshua (Acts 13:39), who put an end to the penalty of breaking the Law for the believer. He fulfilled the Law on our behalf (Romans 2:13) by meeting its righteous requirements (Romans 8:3-4) and nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross/tree (Romans 7:4; Galatians 3:11-13).

    The believer is dead to the Law, because the requirements of the Law have been judged in another - Yeshua!

    The unbeliever is in a dilemma if he cannot keep the righteous requirements of the Law (Galatians 3:10).

    2) God has also changed the nature of the believer. We have peace with God because of our Savior (Acts 10:36; Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:14).
    He does this through the grace of His Son, regeneration of His Spirit, His Word, and by His Spirit at work in sanctifying the believer.

    3) We are not perfect in and of ourselves, but we are in Yeshua. We could never be complete in what we have done; that is why we rely on the perfection of another!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    The problem is, life just got harder, not easier! Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the "Good News" that gave everyone new hope? What's the hope?
    He IS the Good News! The hope is the realization of what God has done for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    New Question #2

    Once you accept Jesus, you should be automatically able to avoid sinning, because you are truly in fellowship, of the Spirit, and will give good fruits. Then why do we see so many Christians sinning?? OH, my bad... those aren't really Christians. (No true Scotsman!) They never believed and accepted Jesus.
    We are not perfect in and of ourselves, or this side of heaven, except in our standing in Yeshua. In Him, we are adopted into God's household that we may call God 'Father.' This is the great blessing God has bestowed on us, that we may be called sons of God, adopted into His household, and call Him 'Father!'

    We still sin, but our sin is not counted against us. It is charged to the Lord Jesus Christ. God is at work in our lives to sanctify us, teach us, rebuke us, and give us the grace to love Him and others.

    In the NT you will notice the two words, 'In Christ' repeatedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So lets get the list straight:

    If you do not forgive everyone for any crime they may commit against you
    If you lie
    If you commit sexual transgressions
    If you joke frivolously
    If you steal money
    If you covet
    If you neglect to feed the poor
    If you do anything wrong
    If you break secular law

    You are not exhibiting "Christ-like" behavior = your acceptance/belief of Jesus is proven bogus = you are not saved = lake of eternal hellfire for you?
    Unfortunately, we see millions of Christians exhibiting further sinful behavior in this world. So they are not saved? So what did the death of Jesus accomplish practically speaking? Very little it seems.

    Seriously, its easier to be Orthodox Jewish.

    Hebrews 10:26

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    So the NT does prescribe destruction for Christian sinners? If Someone accepted Christ and knew that the Cross atoned, then they somehow kept sinning = raging fire.
    We have received the grace of God that we may forgive others as we have been forgiven. God reminds us of His graciousness to us, and to do likewise.

    No, it does not prescribe destruction to those God is saving.
    Find me an NT Scripture that teaches we save ourselves.
    It warns those who make a profession of faith to make their election sure and work out their salvation with fear and trembling because God is working in the true believer. It teaches that He is able to save those who put their trust in Yeshua to the fullest.

    If you want to live by the Law of Moses, then take heed of this verse:

    Acts 13:39
    Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

    Have you been saved from every sin?

    Do you think you can meet God's standard of righteousness on your account, what you do?

    Funny that you chose a paragraph from Hebrews. Hebrews is a book that showcases the difference between the two covenants; the Mosaic Covenant and the better covenant (NT) for the reasons listed. The problem with some Hebraic Christians was they were being persuaded to turn back to Judaism. This book addresses them. These warnings are to those who want to place their faith in a covenant of works that could never be met. These people were in danger of rejecting Christ. Those who did reject Him never had Christ as their Messiah. Their faith in Him wavered.

    God is able to save us. He brings us to hear His voice speaking to us via the Word. His Spirit, through the word, draws us to Him and gives us rebirth so that we are able to hear. He renews our minds (Romans 12:2). We hear and understand the message of the cross and what God has done for us that we could not do for ourselves. This is the message we share with others.

    The problem with many Jews that Jesus spoke of in the Gospel's was that they did not have EARS to hear. Their rebellion hardened their hearts to the message. The whole NT is addressed to Jews, written by Jews, expands on OT prophecy and everything related to the fulfillment of the Tanahk. The mindset is to the Jew FIRST. God is addressing a Hebrew nation regarding their disobedience and rebellion to Him, and judging it. (I will have a lot to say on Matthew 5:17-18 in the other post, since you asked a question on those verses)

    Romans 8:39
    neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    If God saves us through the Son, the Word, and the Spirit, nothing will be able to separate us from God's love.

    Romans 14:4
    Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

    2 Corinthians 9:8
    And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

    Ephesians 3:20
    Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,


    His power, strength, ability, not our own!

    2 Timothy 1:12
    That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.

    The true believer has entrusted his/her salvation to the Lord Jesus Christ and stands firm in His grace, mercy, and power to save them.

    Hebrews 2:18
    Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    Yeshua became a man, so He is able to help the believer when tempted.

    Hebrews 7:25
    Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

    He saves completely!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So if you really never accepted Christ = no atonement
    If you accepted him but failed in your sins = no atonement
    If you accepted him and didn't sin?? = Is there anyone like that? What happens to the millions who are not?
    If you never truly rested in His grace, then whose atonement are you trusting?
    If you truly trusted Him but failed by sinning He is able to save you completely.
    If you accept Him you will still sin, but the Christian's sin has been judged in the One who died for us. We will not be perfect in and of ourselves in this physical lifetime, but we ARE already perfect in God's eyes because of Him, and He is working in our lives to sanctify us via His word washing over us. Jesus has satisfied the justice and righteousness of God by His perfect life live on behalf of the believer. In taking the believers penalty for his sin upon Himself (just like the animal sacrifice in the Mosaic Covenant covered the sin with its offering) the sin is atoned for.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    New Question #3

    Romans 7:14-24

    "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

    Paul is being very honest. He says he is an uncontrollable sinner. Yet he is saved.

    Question? Why is Paul simply not a true Christian? If he is a true Christian, then why is he saved if he keeps on sinning? That isn't Christ like behavior is it? So maybe sinning means you are still a true Christian and you are saved because after all you fell short and you can't help it?
    He is; He understands what the atoning sacrifice of Yeshua has accomplished for Him. That is Paul's message. He preaches Jesus Christ, and Christ crucified. Paul does not preach himself and his ability. Paul points to Him, not what he has done. And through Paul, God is able to make grace abound in Paul's life.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    New Question #4

    Put into logical form:

    1) All men sin. 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"

    2) Sinning is a proof (according to all of you) that the person is not really a Christian, and therefore never really accepted Christ.

    3) John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal
    life. Salvation only works for those who believe in Jesus.

    4) According to #1 and #2 above all men sin, and sinning is a proof you never believed. = No one ever believed.

    5) Therefore there are no Christians.

    6) Therefore Jesus died for nothing.

    If not, why not?
    1) We sin in and of ourselves, but just like your animal sacrifices in the OT, they cover your sin until the perfect human sacrifice is made. That perfect sacrifice is Christ, the Anointed One.

    Hebrews 7:11-13; 15-19
    If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12*For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13*He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar...15*And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16*one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17*For it is declared:
    “You are a priest forever,
    ****in the order of Melchizedek.”
    18*The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19*(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

    The first covenant (Mosaic) has been set aside for a better covenant because it makes nothing perfect. The better covenant relies on,
    1. a better High Priest (Hebrews 8:1-3),
    2. a better Mediator (whom Moses pointed to - Deuteronomy 18:17-19; Hebrews 3:1-8),
    3. a better tabernacle (Hebrews 9:1, 8-11),
    4. a better sacrifice (one that takes away sins instead of covering them until the time they can be taken away - Hebrews 9:13-15, 24-28).

    2) Sin is answered in Yeshua, not ourselves. If we stand in His righteousness, our sins will not be counted to us, AND God will renew our minds so that we are open to Him and His leading.

    3) True!
    John 3:17-20 (NIV)
    17*For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18*Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19*This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20*Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.


    4) It depends on what atones for your sin - yourself, animal sacrifices that can never take away sins, or the Lord Jesus Christ who takes away sin by His righteous life lived on behalf of the believer, pays the penalty for it (death), and restores our relationship with God that Adam enjoyed in the Garden before he sinned.

    5) Not true. A Christian is a believer in Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One of God, who did what we could not do in and of ourselves. Once (just once) you sin, you have broken the righteous standing you had with God. Jesus never sinned. He was a sacrifice without blemish or spot, just like the animal sacrifice of the Mosaic Covenant was to be a sacrifice without blemish, perfect before the LORD. Such sacrifices speak of what we could not do and have not done ourselves.

    6) Not true. He died for all those who would come to Him to be saved, via the grace of God.

    Matthew 1:21 (NIV)
    21*She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins.”

    He WILL save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. That is Good News!

    Who was to sit on David's throne?

    2 Samuel 7:12*When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13*He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14*I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15*But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16*Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.’”

    Soloman fulfilled this promise physically, but the spiritual application points to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a contrast between the physical andd spiritual constantly brought out in the NT. The physical came first as a typology, a shadow of the greater reality - that reality being with God in the heavenly realm.

    Daniel 7:13-14 (NIV)
    13*“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14*He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Matthew 22 Whose Son Is the Messiah?
    41*While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42*“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
    “The son of David,” they replied.
    43*He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
    44*
    “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    ****“Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    ****under your feet.”’
    45*If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46*No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    These 1st-century OT people were looking for their Messiah. They understood that He would be of the lineage of David.

    What do you say of that, RabbiDak?

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    @Peter,

    Looks like you double posted.
    Yes, I made some grammar and spelling mistakes and wanted to correct them. Sorry about that, Rabbi Dak.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    I was thinking of Leviticus 6:5. It says that if someone swore falsely, lied, and stole, that he makes restitution to the party by paying the value plus a fifth, as a fine. You brought those verses too.
    Thank you! BTW, I appreciate your perspective. Since the NT Scriptures were written by Jews (mostly) with Jews in mind, concerning their OT prophecies and Messiah, it is interesting to get a Jewish perspective on difficult passages. I believe what many people fail to take into account today is that the NT has a distinctly Jewish flavor to it because of the reasons I stated. I contend they were the relevant audience of address by Jesus concerning prophecy (John 1:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    You also show that the sinner offers an animal as a Temple offering for his sin. This is true. However, it does not mean that the sinner would die if he didn't bring the animal. The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Also, not every sin listed in the Torah is obligated in an animal sacrifice. So what did the sinner do then?? Die? What about if the fellow lived far from the Temple and couldn't travel there? He dies? Where does the Bible even say that?? Rather if the Bible says an animal is all you need and it doesn't say that the sinner dies without the animal, then plainly the animal is not that major of a deal.
    Adam did not die physically the day he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). On that very day his relationship with God changed (he died spiritually; God no longer walked with him in the Garden - Genesis 3:8) He was removed from the Garden on that day (Genesis 3:23-24). He brought curses on humanity, one of which was the curse of physical death (Genesis 3:19).

    Likewise, the person who sinned under the Mosaic Law was not necessarily killed, but his relationship with God was hampered (curses). Such death occasions did happen in the wilderness with the serpents, or for various other sinful actions where God killed a multitude of covenant believers for their sins and rebellion. He even prevented a whole generation from entering the Promised Land for their lack of faith. That generation perished in the desert. Because of their sins He brought judgment on the land, city and temple and sent them into exile.

    Because a person was not killed immediately (God's grace and mercy) did not mean that they were in right standing with God, or that they could enter His presence in their state of sinfulness.

    You are right, not every offering required an animal sacrifice. It depended on the offering and also the social standing of the sinner. If a person was poor he was still required to bring an offering. If he did not have/could not afford an animal sacrifice, then a grain offering was accepted, but it had to be the best the man could offer. If an animal, the animal had to be without spot or defect.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    This verse that you bring from the NT is not accepted as truth by Jews.
    Yes, I realize this, or perhaps you would have embraced the Messiah by now. (^8

    An animal offering to God was present through most of the OT, including during the time of Caan and Abel. (Even Abraham)

    (Romans 9:32; Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17)

    Although you do not believe in Jesus blood sacrifice (a new covenant sacrifice), there are many OT Jews who did believe because they saw the fulfillment of the OT before their eyes. By checking the OT Scriptures, they saw the prophecies applying to this Man (Yeshua) and no other. Paul/Saul, a Jew steeped in OT tradition and knowledge, once vigourously opposed to Christianity now encouraged all to search the Scriptures to see if what was said lined up with OT Scripture (Acts 17:10-12).

    I, as a Gentile, was privileged to work with Jews for Jesus in Toronto on one of their two-week campaigns in the 1980's. I have witnessed Jews who believe in Jesus! It was a privilege and one of the greatest spiritual blessing of my life to date to serve with them for that short period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Our reasoning is that there are many things which affect atonement in the Torah without blood. You yourself said in your answer above: "...The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin..". Grain offerings do not contain blood!? How does it cover sin? There are many other cases in the Jewish Bible that show atonement for sin without blood.
    A tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering was a provision if one could not afford an animal.

    Sin and guilt offerings still required an atonement, and it depended on the means of the person who offended God to supply the offering to the priest, for the very reason that God is pure and holy and He will not accept sin in His presence.

    The all important Day of Atonement required an animal sacrifice.

    Numbers 29:7-11 (NASB)
    The Day of Atonement
    7*“‘On the tenth day of this seventh month hold a sacred assembly. You must deny yourselves[e] and do no work. 8*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 9*With the bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; 10*and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. 11*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the sin offering for atonement and the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.

    Over and over again in the OT, we see God's offense against a stiff-necked covenant people. He sends prophets and teachers to these people to get them to turn from their sins. Daniel 9:1-23 is about Daniel's recognition of the people's iniquity and their plight and demise because of sin (Daniel 9:4-6, as an example). Remember, Deuteronomy 28 contained both blessings of obedience and curses for disobedience.

    Concerning the grain offering, C. W. Slemming, Thus Shalt Thou Serve, has documented the five Levitical offerings, as well as the feasts of the covenant; the Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering, the Peace Offering, the Sin Offering and the Guilt or Tresspass Offering. He says,

    "The offerings, with one exception, were sacrificial and required the shedding of blood. This is because they were figurative of the one sacrifice which was to be made once in the end of the age in the death of the Lord Jesus Christ." p. 9

    It is when a person could not afford a blood offering for sin that the tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering was accepted.

    He goes on to say that,
    "The holiness of God demanded a sacrifice.
    The majesty of God required certain regulations.
    The honor of God necessitated a code of conduct.
    The perfection of God expected the best of its kind.
    The purity of God deserved freedom from blemish.
    The sovereignty of God meant absolute obedience to detail." p.9-10


    Well said! He explain why there were five offerings since no one offering could capture the perfect offering made by Yeshua. Remember also, when Moses was instructed to build the tabernacle, it, as well as all its utensils, was made according to the pattern.
    The same is true of the priest's garments -> made to pattern. 'According to a pattern' -> all pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ. God has a purpose in all He does, including the order of the sacrifices and the feasts! The feast also were all pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ -> according to pattern.

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...bbath-rest.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...t-passover.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...unleavened.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...rst-fruits.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-pentecost.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...t-trumpets.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-atonement.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...tonement02.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...abernacles.htm

    (You, Rabbi, mentioned that you have just celebrated the last feast on the list, but you cannot offer in God's prescribed manner as required by the Mosaic Law. How is this if the Law still stands?)

    Numbers 29:12-39
    The Festival of Tabernacles
    12*“‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. Celebrate a festival to the Lord for seven days. 13*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of thirteen young bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 14*With each of the thirteen bulls offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with each of the two rams, two-tenths; 15*and with each of the fourteen lambs, one-tenth. 16*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    17*“‘On the second day offer twelve young bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 18*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 19*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.
    20*“‘On the third day offer eleven bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 21*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 22*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    23*“‘On the fourth day offer ten bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 24*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 25*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    26*“‘On the fifth day offer nine bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 27*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 28*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    29*“‘On the sixth day offer eight bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 30*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 31*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    32*“‘On the seventh day offer seven bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 33*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 34*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    35*“‘On the eighth day hold a closing special assembly and do no regular work. 36*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of one bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 37*With the bull, the ram and the lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 38*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    39*“‘In addition to what you vow and your freewill offerings, offer these to the Lord at your appointed festivals: your burnt offerings, grain offerings, drink offerings and fellowship offerings.’”
    40*Moses told the Israelites all that the Lord commanded him.


    Some of the offerings were voluntary, but the sin and guilt offerings were compulsory.

    So, the offerings CANNOT be completed as prescribed by the Mosaic Law.
    The feast offerings CANNOT be completed as prescribe by the Mosaic Law.

    The Mosaic Law could cover the sin of a person but it could not remove it. Even after completion of the offering, as soon as the person sinned again he was guilty before the Lord God. That is the downfall of the Mosaic Covenant. (Romans 8:3; Galatians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21, per page 46-47)

    That, I contend is one of the reasons that God removed it, took it out of the way so that the only covenant in effect was the New Covenant.

    ***

    For those who could not afford the greater animal sacrifices here are the provisions:

    7*“‘Anyone who cannot afford a lamb is to bring two doves or two young pigeons to the Lord as a penalty for their sin—one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8*They are to bring them to the priest, who shall first offer the one for the sin offering. He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely, 9*and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10*The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.
    11*“‘If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12*They are to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the food offerings presented to the Lord. It is a sin offering. 13*In this way the priest will make atonement for them for any of these sins they have committed, and they will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering.’”

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Furthermore, Annanias and Sapphira could have brought an animal as a sin offering to the Temple! They lived with Peter in Jerusalem in Acts while the Temple still stood! Why did they need to be struck down dead instantly?
    Because they lied to God and were deceptively hidding their dishonest to the Holy Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    And even if you say A + S were not "real believers" and they were not able to access the atonement of the Cross, they could have been instructed to repent and believe first? And even if you will say that Jesus replaced animals, still the "unbelieving" A + S could still bring a Temple animal offering. We see this is possible for a Christian believer of that time since Paul in Acts 21 (and by his defense in 24) agreed to purify himself with 4 believers who were Nazirites. He even paid for their offerings which included sin offerings at the Temple, even years after Jesus died on the Cross!
    David Curtis brings up this point:

    "There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB)
    Did you notice that out of these seven abominations, two of them deal with lying? God hates lying!"

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/acts/5_1-11.htm

    The sermon also covers your question on whether they were believers and if they were what sins resulted in death.

    The interesting thing I find about Acts is that they were still brings gifts and offerings to the temple, showing that the temple still stood upon the writing of the NT book of Acts. You find in every NT epistle or Gospel the soon, near, coming judgment against these OT people. You find no mention in any NT epistle the already destruction of the temple and city, something astonishingly strange given the fact that the epistles deal so much about Jewish ritual, sacrifices, atonement, and economy. These things mean nothing after A.D. 70. The Gospel's and epistles have constant warning to flee from the coming wrath. That wrath came in A.D. 70. Revelation is an expansion on the Olivet Discourse (if you like John's rendering of it).

    Whether A & S were true believers or not is not for me to decide. That belongs to the Lord to judge. I can just say that there were sins that resulted in death. One was blasphemy against the Spirit. Peter told them they had lied to the Spirit. I do not believe a true believer would fall under this sin. Some sins did result in death. Some sins did not result in immediate death, but all sin that is not satisfactorily atoned for is judged by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Finally, you even brought this verse in a previous post above: 1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
    Yes, the church at Corinth was an example. They were practicing all kinds of sexually immoral acts and the Apostle Paul was rebuking them for their sexual misconduct and reminding them of the covenant they were under and of the need to repent. Those sins had not resulted in death to that point.

    Again, David Curtis answers this question in the link under the title, "Were Ananias and Sapphira saved, were they believers?":

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...cts/5_1-11.htm

    I respect David Curtis, but you make your own mind up whether you think his argument is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Even the NT makes a difference between sins that are punished by death and sins that are not punished by death. Not every sin = death.
    Sins that are met by Jesus' sacrifice do not result in the believers spiritual death (separation from God), but they can result in the believer's physical death and a loss of reward (1 Corinthians 3:13-15). Yeshua already paid the penalty for all our sins and if we truly believe in Yeshua, then His sin offering has been accepted by God on our behalf.

    Peter

 

 
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