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  1. #1
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    Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    It is my understanding that Christianity (New Testament doctrine?) says the following:

    1) All people are sinners.

    2) All sinners are "damned" for eternity. They will be punished by being thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire.

    3) However... if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept him as lord and savior, you are forgiven all of your sins. The blood of Jesus fully atones for you.

    (BTW: I have written #1-#3 without proof citations because I thought it is a recitation of the obvious. If I am wrong, or this post needs the verses, I would be happy if someone helps me edit etc.)

    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?

    Is that the case in this world and the next world?

    If it is not, and Christians are still being punished for sin, then what was the use of the sacrifice of Jesus?

    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?

    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?
    Does it? I don't recall anywhere off the top of my head where it talks about Christians being punished for sin. I know Stephen was stoned to death, but that wasn't for sin, that was martyrdom. It refers to the many times Paul was beaten and left for dead or thrown in jail, but those too weren't sin-related. They were, like Stephen's case, a result of his speaking his faith. John and Peter were arrested and beaten for the same thing. Beyond that, I don't recall anyone specifically being mentioned as afflicted with anything grievous, much less it being a result of sin. But I may have missed something.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  3. #3
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Does it? I don't recall anywhere off the top of my head where it talks about Christians being punished for sin. I know Stephen was stoned to death, but that wasn't for sin, that was martyrdom. It refers to the many times Paul was beaten and left for dead or thrown in jail, but those too weren't sin-related. They were, like Stephen's case, a result of his speaking his faith. John and Peter were arrested and beaten for the same thing. Beyond that, I don't recall anyone specifically being mentioned as afflicted with anything grievous, much less it being a result of sin. But I may have missed something.
    I would agree that if bad things happen to Christians, it is not a proof in and of itself, that those Christians were being punished for sin. However, if the text of Scripture declares or shows the subject Christian being punished for a sin or sins, then we should examine it.

    1 Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property. 2 He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land? 4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”

    5 When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it. 6 So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened. 8 Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.” 9 Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” 10 At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things. (Acts 5:1-11)


    It would seem that this Christian couple (who were among the early believers in Peter's church) were punished for lying about charity funds and stealing those funds and breaking their vow of charity. This punishment met them, regardless of their belief in the blood of Jesus.

    This punishment would seem to even be meted out in the eternal afterlife as well according to the NT. Jesus is quoted in Revelations 21:8 as follows:

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:10, would seem to imply that reward and punishment is not done away with for believers:

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    The NT also teaches, that local law enforcement, (police or similar earthly authorities) are heavenly agents to mete out punishment against sinners. Paul in Romans preaches this to Christian believers.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)

    Mathew 6, has Jesus author a prayer for his followers. It is obvious that a follower of Jesus certainly believes in him and his sacrifice on the cross etc. Yet, a key aspect of the daily prayer a Christian is to utter, includes a blanket forgiveness of the "debts" other people owe to the supplicant. Jesus explains why in verses 14-15:

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    So it would seem that any Christian will not be forgiven for sins unless they also forgive everyone who sinned against them too. Tell me, do all believing Christians forgive everyone? I am talking about this level of forgiveness as well:

    Mathew 18 (21-35)"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

    Jesus then teaches a parable which explains the fate of a Christian who will not forgive every misdeed of anyone against him.

    "32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

    My point here is that Christians can still be punished for their sins, under certain circumstances, regardless of their belief in the atoning blood of Jesus. This point is especially strong, when the "exception" to atonement, is something that many many human Christians, would find it difficult to overcome. In this case, what human finds it easy to grant blanket forgiveness upon anyone who has sinned against them, carte blanche??

    If many thousands of lawsuits in the courts of the United States (a mostly Christian country) are being filed daily, what does that say about the ability of Christians to forgive their brothers and sisters?

    I pose that if the so called free gift of atonement in Christ, is in fact conditional upon something that most people find extremely difficult to overcome, then what good is it for general salvation? Put another way... If we knew the number of people eligible to receive atonement and eternal life under the simple "believe in Jesus" plan AND we knew the number of eligible people under the modified "conditional plan" where you need to forgive the world who stepped on you as well, (plus belief in Jesus) in order to be forgiven... would those numbers have dropped significantly?

    One more group of verses comes to mind.

    Ephesians 5: 3-6 "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

    Colossians 3:5-11 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

    The message is clear that certain sins will still bring wrath upon Christians and cause them to lose any portion in the kingdom of Christ.

    Finally (and there is more, but this should be enough to debate for now), why do Christians die, work hard, and have pain during child birth? Although we are going back to what Christians call the "Old Testament" for this question, it does seem relevant since it is an ongoing fact. Besides, it is "original sin", so it is very relevant. The punishment for all mankind because of original sin, is spelled out in Genesis 3.

    Gen 3: 16-19 "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be towards your husband, but he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    If death, working hard for a living, and labor pains, are the punishment for sin.... then why do believing Christians still endure punishment for that sin? The only thing that seems to have happened to alleviate the punishment, is that modern day women have at least overcome the verse that says men will "rule over them". Ironically, the Church has overturned that for Christians with Ephesians 5:24 "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.".

    This can only leave us to wonder: Has the women's liberation movement accomplished more towards the forgiveness of sin than the blood of Christ?

    So to summarize until now:

    1) Annanias and Saphira were punished for lying to the church, and withholding charity that was vowed. They, being liars, are not only given death as punishment in this world, but are given the second death in the afterlife via the lake of eternal fire.

    2) Second Corinthians has a general statement that "all" must go through judgment before Christ and receive their due for any evil done while they were in the body on Earth.

    3) If you do not forgive anyone who sinned against you, then you will not be forgiven, regardless of your belief in Christ.

    4) Sexual immorality and evil desire (even filthy jokes) as well as other sins listed above, from murder to being "cowardly" will bring wrath and condemnation upon Christians.

    5) Prison sentences and traffic tickets are all heavenly punishments that are meted out even to Christian sinners. Belief in the atoning death at Calvary, is not a "get out of jail free" card in this world.

    6) Punishments for original sin have not been atoned for by Jesus.
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 10th, 2017 at 05:35 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  4. #4
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So to summarize until now:

    1) Annanias and Saphira were punished for lying to the church, and withholding charity that was vowed. They, being liars, are not only given death as punishment in this world, but are given the second death in the afterlife via the lake of eternal fire.

    2) Second Corinthians has a general statement that "all" must go through judgment before Christ and receive their due for any evil done while they were in the body on Earth.

    3) If you do not forgive anyone who sinned against you, then you will not be forgiven, regardless of your belief in Christ.

    4) Sexual immorality and evil desire (even filthy jokes) as well as other sins listed above, from murder to being "cowardly" will bring wrath and condemnation upon Christians.

    5) Prison sentences and traffic tickets are all heavenly punishments that are meted out even to Christian sinners. Belief in the atoning death at Calvary, is not a "get out of jail free" card in this world.

    6) Punishments for original sin have not been atoned for by Jesus.
    I would like to address your issues when time permits. I will sum up what my argument will condsist of in one statement; Does the NT teach that 1) a believer saves themself, 2) that the NT believer works hand in hand in saving themselves, or 3) that SALVATION is a gift of God, not through works but through Jesus who does everything necessary for salvation and 4) the works come after salvation?

    NT Scripture (which incidently derives its validity from the OT and teachings of Jesus Christ) also teaches that some who profess Jesus do not show signs that God has regenarated them, they continue to live in darkness and misrepresent the essentials of the faith (preach a different Jesus (i.e., Matthew 7:21-23; Galatians 1:6-8).

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Please feel free to debate anything with me. I am flattered by your challenge. I would suggest that you can debate the question of Jews being under the Mosaic Law after 70 CE. etc.

    I suggest you start a thread with a point of challenge; as this thread is devoted to a different subject.

    TY
    Great, thank you!

    PS. I have never started a thread. I'll try but if I fail, I will let you start it. (^8

    I will copy and paste my post.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 AM ----------

    Success, please go here:

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...013#post556013

    Peter

  5. #5
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    I would agree that if bad things happen to Christians, it is not a proof in and of itself, that those Christians were being punished for sin. However, if the text of Scripture declares or shows the subject Christian being punished for a sin or sins, then we should examine it.

    1 Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property. 2 He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land? 4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”

    5 When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it. 6 So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened. 8 Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.” 9 Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” 10 At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things. (Acts 5:1-11)

    It would seem that this Christian couple (who were among the early believers in Peter's church) were punished for lying about charity funds and stealing those funds and breaking their vow of charity. This punishment met them, regardless of their belief in the blood of Jesus.
    I can't believe I forgot about that. Okay, so we have this point in the early church where the believers are coming together and sharing EVERYTHING. Food, clothes, shelter, finances, etc. Acts 4:34-35 explains that the ones who had land were selling their lands and giving the money to the apostles to be redistributed among the poor to care for the needy. And verse 34 points out that because of this, they had actually erased poverty from their own this way. It goes on to point out one of them named Joseph, who did exactly what it's talking about, selling the land and giving the proceeds to be used for the care of the poor. Then we get to Acts 5 and see a counter-point. Ananias and Sapphira, by contrast, sell some land and decide that instead of giving the entire amount, they were going to keep some for themselves. So if we do a quick comparison of their behavior to Acts 4:32, where it says that everyone was holding their possession in common (what's mine is yours). Ananias and Sapphira don't seem keen on that given that they're holding some money secretly for themselves.

    So right off the bat we're seeing two people behaving very differently than the established behavior. Instead of sharing and sharing alike, they're upholding a false image (sure that's all we got for the sale) and not sharing (we'll keep this portion for ourselves). There's a litany of verses that touch this issue. We can go back to Jesus who said in Matthew 6:19 not to "store up for yourselves treasures on earth" or in 6:25 where he goes on to encourage people not to worry about their daily needs and trust God to provide what they need. Luke 12:13-21 tells a parable about a man keeping goods for himself, and cautions that we should be rich toward God (spiritually rich) rathan than rich towards the world (materially rich). And that's not extending into John's letters where he argues that anyone who claims salvation but continues to sin has never really been saved (their confession is false) or Paul who touches the same vein in Romans when he argues that because of our salvation we ought not continue as we were before salvation, or James who declares that faith without works is a dead faith (false faith) or in Hebrews where it points out that a man who claims salvation but acts as he did before (continues in his sin) is actually worse off than he was prior to salvation. Peter points out the same in 2nd Peter. Revelations touches the same subject in the letter to the churches in Laodicea and Sardis.

    The common thread here is that Ananias and Sapphira show themselves to be of a false faith. They were insincere in their profession of faith in Christ and as a result, weren't really saved or else they would have behaved differently. What we're seeing, more or less, is that Ananias and Sapphira in saving for themselves show a lack of faith that God would meet their needs, through their willing to decieve the rest of their church that they aren't of one soul with the church, through their willingness to deny charity to the needy that they lack compassion towards those in need. So the inconsistency here would be for us to declare that they were believers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    This punishment would seem to even be meted out in the eternal afterlife as well according to the NT. Jesus is quoted in Revelations 21:8 as follows:

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:10, would seem to imply that reward and punishment is not done away with for believers:

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
    I'm not sure I see an issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    The NT also teaches, that local law enforcement, (police or similar earthly authorities) are heavenly agents to mete out punishment against sinners. Paul in Romans preaches this to Christian believers.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)
    I don't really see a problem here either. We're encouraged to be peacebale, law-abiding citizens. Not just to avoid punishment from authorities, but because lawlessness on our part can have a negative impact on people's perceptions of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Mathew 6, has Jesus author a prayer for his followers. It is obvious that a follower of Jesus certainly believes in him and his sacrifice on the cross etc. Yet, a key aspect of the daily prayer a Christian is to utter, includes a blanket forgiveness of the "debts" other people owe to the supplicant. Jesus explains why in verses 14-15:

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    So it would seem that any Christian will not be forgiven for sins unless they also forgive everyone who sinned against them too. Tell me, do all believing Christians forgive everyone? I am talking about this level of forgiveness as well:

    Mathew 18 (21-35)"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

    Jesus then teaches a parable which explains the fate of a Christian who will not forgive every misdeed of anyone against him.

    "32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
    Well, we can argue forgiveness, but first we have to accept that whether people forgive everyone or not has no bearing on whether or not we are called to forgive everyone. The point of the parable that Jesus tells about the unmerciful servant is to remind, and reinforce, that we ought to forgive everyone sincerely because God forgives us for infinitely larger transgressions than we have to forgive. Someone not repaying a day's wage is significantly less than someone not repaying several lifetime's wages. And that's the point here. We ought to ask Him to forgive us daily, not because He'll change His mind, but because as a reminder to ourselves that we are forgiven much, and therefore should forgive much.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    My point here is that Christians can still be punished for their sins, under certain circumstances, regardless of their belief in the atoning blood of Jesus. This point is especially strong, when the "exception" to atonement, is something that many many human Christians, would find it difficult to overcome. In this case, what human finds it easy to grant blanket forgiveness upon anyone who has sinned against them, carte blanche??

    If many thousands of lawsuits in the courts of the United States (a mostly Christian country) are being filed daily, what does that say about the ability of Christians to forgive their brothers and sisters?

    I pose that if the so called free gift of atonement in Christ, is in fact conditional upon something that most people find extremely difficult to overcome, then what good is it for general salvation? Put another way... If we knew the number of people eligible to receive atonement and eternal life under the simple "believe in Jesus" plan AND we knew the number of eligible people under the modified "conditional plan" where you need to forgive the world who stepped on you as well, (plus belief in Jesus) in order to be forgiven... would those numbers have dropped significantly?
    It's a tough thing, to forgive people that wrong you. No one can deny that. But this is another "Heart-related" issue. If we truly have the Spirit in us, then we ought to want to forgive. We ought to know and feel and believe that resentment is wrong (this guilt is our grieving the Spirit) and therefore strive to forgive and reaching out to our brothers and sisters for encouragement and counsel where we find it particularly difficult to do so. Jesus had this habit of being blunt force with his wording and as a result, we're left reading between the lines at times. In which case, with the issue of the prayer and subsequent, "Just forgive them a lot, like all the time, Peter" what we're looking at is Jesus implying that a heart of forgiveness is a mark of someone who believes, and a stubborn and unforgiving heart is the mark of someone who does not.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    One more group of verses comes to mind.

    Ephesians 5: 3-6 "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

    Colossians 3:5-11 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

    The message is clear that certain sins will still bring wrath upon Christians and cause them to lose any portion in the kingdom of Christ.
    I disagree here. With Ephesians, Paul is pointing out that those behaviors are the mark of unbelievers. People who aren't saved. Colossians is reiterating the same point. It's not "If you do these, God will hate you because you sinned" it's "If you do this, you are showing yourself as someone who never sincerely confessed."
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Finally (and there is more, but this should be enough to debate for now), why do Christians die, work hard, and have pain during child birth? Although we are going back to what Christians call the "Old Testament" for this question, it does seem relevant since it is an ongoing fact. Besides, it is "original sin", so it is very relevant. The punishment for all mankind because of original sin, is spelled out in Genesis 3.

    Gen 3: 16-19 "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be towards your husband, but he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    If death, working hard for a living, and labor pains, are the punishment for sin.... then why do believing Christians still endure punishment for that sin? The only thing that seems to have happened to alleviate the punishment, is that modern day women have at least overcome the verse that says men will "rule over them". Ironically, the Church has overturned that for Christians with Ephesians 5:24 "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.".
    I would argue that this is a little more complex than what it appears to be. In Romans, the comparison is made here regarding Sin and Salvation through a contrast of Jesus and Adam. Whereas Adam brought death into the world, Jesus brings Life. This would indicate that the death being talked about is eternal death as the Life being talked about is Eternal Life. The physical consequences are a continued reminder that we're living in a broken world that God will eventually correct (which is not necessarily a Christian concept as I believe both Ezekiel and Daniel had visions of a post reconciliation world making it a pre-christian concept). The idea here is that physical pain, toil, labor are all aspects of a now cursed world. That in itself isn't the Sin part. DEATH is the sin part. And I would argue that it's not physical death being referenced but Spiritual death. I say that because of the Tree of Life, which would've made Adam and Eve immortal (Genesis 3:22). Physical death was always a thing. But now it's assured by absence of access to the ToL. In Romans, Paul more or less clarifies this issue of death by way of relating it to Jesus's gift of eternal life, which occurs post mortem. Just like the 2nd Death (Spirital Death) also occurs post mortem.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    The common thread here is that Ananias and Sapphira show themselves to be of a false faith. They were insincere in their profession of faith in Christ and as a result, weren't really saved or else they would have behaved differently. What we're seeing, more or less, is that Ananias and Sapphira in saving for themselves show a lack of faith that God would meet their needs, through their willing to decieve the rest of their church that they aren't of one soul with the church, through their willingness to deny charity to the needy that they lack compassion towards those in need. So the inconsistency here would be for us to declare that they were believers.


    I'm not sure I see an issue here.


    I don't really see a problem here either. We're encouraged to be peacebale, law-abiding citizens. Not just to avoid punishment from authorities, but because lawlessness on our part can have a negative impact on people's perceptions of Jesus.


    Well, we can argue forgiveness, but first we have to accept that whether people forgive everyone or not has no bearing on whether or not we are called to forgive everyone.

    It's a tough thing, to forgive people that wrong you. No one can deny that. But this is another "Heart-related" issue. If we truly have the Spirit in us, then we ought to want to forgive. .....that a heart of forgiveness is a mark of someone who believes, and a stubborn and unforgiving heart is the mark of someone who does not.

    I disagree here. With Ephesians, Paul is pointing out that those behaviors are the mark of unbelievers. People who aren't saved. Colossians is reiterating the same point. It's not "If you do these, God will hate you because you sinned" it's "If you do this, you are showing yourself as someone who never sincerely confessed."

    The idea here is that physical pain, toil, labor are all aspects of a now cursed world.
    I abbreviated your response (in places) to make it easier for me to respond to (without removing anything for the sake of avoiding a strong point).

    Your last answer about the "cursed world" reality being just what it is, regardless of Jesus' sacrifice, seems to be a good attempt. You seem to be saying that because of some Divine plan, Jesus' salvation is going to gradually achieve eternal life, in a wonderful way that could not have been accomplished before, but temporarily, the world will still just suck in certain aspects. And even though the verses plainly seem to reflect that death, birthpangs, and toil, are punishments for sin (which we would expect Jesus to erase) Its ok to wait for that correction until the end times or post afterlife.

    I am going to give in on this one for now, because I cannot prove it wrong offhand, and I do not want to be a nit-picking type. We are searching for the truth right? So I am not going to press this just to be a jerk who likes to harp on every point, merely to look like I am winning LOL.

    However, the real key statement you seem to be making is that a "true Christian" would never actually commit certain crimes. In fact, if he or she did, they are not "true Christians" and they "never confessed (Jesus as their Lord?) " in the first place (at least not with any sincerity; or enough sincerity) .

    So, (I am trying to avoid a strawman here) are you saying:

    1) Everyone is a sinner and all have fallen short.
    2) No one is capable of serving God fully and avoiding sin.
    3) Therefore, everyone is going to die here and in the afterlife (second death)
    4) However, to avoid that, Jesus made a sacrifice so everyone's sin is forgiven.
    5) If you truly accept the sacrifice and accept Jesus as Lord, then you are saved from sin and eternal death. You get eternal life instead.
    6) However, (even if you accept Jesus fully and believe in his blood), if you keep sinning and falling short, you will still get eternal death, regardless of your belief and acceptance, because it proves you are not a "true Christian" after all.

    Is this what you mean? If not, please correct me with the right conclusive version that represents your position.

    Finally, you do not see a problem with Cor 5:10? "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    I will try to spell out the problem in logical form.

    1) The Apostle Paul says "...we must all.." WE modified by ALL is a word-phrase, that logically includes people like Paul, and anyone in his audience. That means the statement is addressed to, and includes "true Christians". You cannot answer the coming contradiction by saying the punished people refer to "not really true Christians".

    2) These "true Christians" will perforce need to be judged by Christ at some point.

    3) The judgment is going to be passed concerning things the believer did while in their Earthly life within the "body".

    4) Not only rewards for good will be given, but "what is due... for evil" will also be dispensed.

    5) A common English phrase that should describe what judgment people receive, that they are due, for having committed evil while in a body, is: "being punished for sin".

    6) Therefore, the verse Corinthians 5:10 clearly states that "true Christian" believers will in the future be punished for sins they committed while they were alive on Earth.

    7) But Jesus' death was supposed to atone once and for all for the sins of any true believer??

    8) Therefore, Jesus' atoning death and Cor 5:10 are inconsistent with each other.

    If not, why not?

    ---------- Post added at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

    This is for PGA2:

    You are either saying that Annanias and Sapphira were not "true Christians", OR

    Annanias and sapphira were "true Christians", but maybe they sinned by a type of sin that caused death?

    The "not true Christians" answer seems to be used by all of the Christians so far in this thread, in one way or another. I do have a question for all of you about that.

    But for now Peter,

    How is it possible that lying and stealing charity money would be punished by death??? Even according to Mosaic Law, such things are only punished by paying a fine. Would the NT prescribe a harsher punishment for a particular sin than the Tanach?? How? Do you have a Scripture for this?
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 14th, 2017 at 09:23 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Your last answer about the "cursed world" reality being just what it is, regardless of Jesus' sacrifice, seems to be a good attempt. You seem to be saying that because of some Divine plan, Jesus' salvation is going to gradually achieve eternal life, in a wonderful way that could not have been accomplished before, but temporarily, the world will still just suck in certain aspects. And even though the verses plainly seem to reflect that death, birthpangs, and toil, are punishments for sin (which we would expect Jesus to erase) Its ok to wait for that correction until the end times or post afterlife.

    I am going to give in on this one for now, because I cannot prove it wrong offhand, and I do not want to be a nit-picking type. We are searching for the truth right? So I am not going to press this just to be a jerk who likes to harp on every point, merely to look like I am winning LOL.
    By all means, if there's a contention there, don't hold back. If you feel like we'll get stuck, we can shoot that into a separate discussion focus on the original sin topic as its own topic, and reference it back here where needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    However, the real key statement you seem to be making is that a "true Christian" would never actually commit certain crimes. In fact, if he or she did, they are not "true Christians" and they "never confessed (Jesus as their Lord?) " in the first place (at least not with any sincerity; or enough sincerity) .
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So, (I am trying to avoid a strawman here) are you saying:

    1) Everyone is a sinner and all have fallen short.
    2) No one is capable of serving God fully and avoiding sin.
    3) Therefore, everyone is going to die here and in the afterlife (second death)
    4) However, to avoid that, Jesus made a sacrifice so everyone's sin is forgiven.
    5) If you truly accept the sacrifice and accept Jesus as Lord, then you are saved from sin and eternal death. You get eternal life instead.
    6) However, (even if you accept Jesus fully and believe in his blood), if you keep sinning and falling short, you will still get eternal death, regardless of your belief and acceptance, because it proves you are not a "true Christian" after all.

    Is this what you mean? If not, please correct me with the right conclusive version that represents your position.
    In a manner of speaking, you could say that. I'm not a big fan of the terminology "true christian" because to me it's not really any different than saying, "True black guy" or "true gay person". Either someone is or they aren't. And there's a biblical basis for that assessment (the one regarding faith and salvation). 1st John 2:5-6 tells us that if we claim salvation, we ought to be acting in a manner reflective of Jesus. Romans 6:1-4 speaks to the same message. BECAUSE we have died to sin, we shouldn't be living sinfully any longer. This isn't to say we'll lead a perfect life. The authors of the NT repeatedly refer to believers as children, likening faith in Jesus as a lifelong process of spiritual growth that does not finish until after death and resurrection. What I point out with Ananias and Sapphira is that while they seemed to be taking part in the social aspects of the early church, they did so with a kind of odd reserve that would indicate that they didn't really buy into the message. What makes Ananias and Sapphira stand out isn't so much that they did something sinful. It's that they were met with immediate death as a result. And there's multiple interpretations for WHY that happened. It could be that, as I've suggested that they weren't actually believers and were being punished for their falsehood. It could also be that Peter was an imperfect person empowered by the Spirit and acted rashly and did something grievous without giving those people a chance to repent. It could be both. And none of the three, to my knowledge, would be inconsistent here. One scholar even suggests that it's dark humor and wasn't meant to be taken seriously (I haven't read the justification for that view, but I cannot even fathom an instance where that would make sense).

    All I can say for sure is that there's a direct correlation (whether Just or not) between Jesus telling a parable about a man greedily storing up grain and dying, and the couple being discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Finally, you do not see a problem with Cor 5:10? "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    I will try to spell out the problem in logical form.

    1) The Apostle Paul says "...we must all.." WE modified by ALL is a word-phrase, that logically includes people like Paul, and anyone in his audience. That means the statement is addressed to, and includes "true Christians". You cannot answer the coming contradiction by saying the punished people refer to "not really true Christians".

    2) These "true Christians" will perforce need to be judged by Christ at some point.

    3) The judgment is going to be passed concerning things the believer did while in their Earthly life within the "body".

    4) Not only rewards for good will be given, but "what is due... for evil" will also be dispensed.

    5) A common English phrase that should describe what judgment people receive, that they are due, for having committed evil while in a body, is: "being punished for sin".

    6) Therefore, the verse Corinthians 5:10 clearly states that "true Christian" believers will in the future be punished for sins they committed while they were alive on Earth.

    7) But Jesus' death was supposed to atone once and for all for the sins of any true believer??

    8) Therefore, Jesus' atoning death and Cor 5:10 are inconsistent with each other.

    If not, why not?
    I don't see a problem with the passage in question. It's a statement that we see play out in Revelations, where the living and the dead stand before judgment, and the Book of Life is opened. I don't see this as a passage indicating believers will be punished, by as an encouraging reminder that something good is in our future, and an encouragement to bring others to Christ because something bad is in their future. And again, James reinforces the notion of a connection between faith and behavior by arguing that faith without works is dead. Going so far as to challenge his congregation to "Show me your faith witout works and I'll show you my faith by my works." The message here is pretty clear and goes back to Jesus' own "By your works you will know me". If we believe, our actions will reflect a believing heart. If we don't, our actions will reflect one that doesn't.

    There was someone, can't recall who, that argued if we really want to assess our faith, we have to ask ourselves, "If I didn't believe in Jesus, would my life look any different" and if the answer isn't an immediate "YES" then we have a problem that we need to bring to God and resolve.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    But for now Peter,

    [1]How is it possible that lying and stealing charity money would be punished by death??? Even according to Mosaic Law, such things are only punished by paying a fine. [2]Would the NT prescribe a harsher punishment for a particular sin than the Tanach?? [3]How? [4]Do you have a Scripture for this?
    Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughtfulness!
    I have a very long response (sorry).

    [1] What verse are you using as an example, please?

    Sin was always punishable by death, separation from God (for God's nature is holy and pure, as you know), unless an atonement is provided. The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin until a sacrifice that could remove sin was made. It was a substitutionary offering that represented the person who sinned. That person should have been in the place of the animal, but God provided a sacrifice of atonement to cover his sin until the day when God took that provision out of the way and replaced it with a better sacrifice, a permanent one.

    Leviticus 17:11 (NASB)
    11*For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’


    Blood gives our bodies life. Without it, we are physically dead. Spiritually, the blood of Jesus gives us spiritual life. That sacrifice is sufficient to atone for our sins (all our sins) and set us right with God. Thus, God's principle, the substitution of one life for another, is observed in both Covenants.

    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    Sin, in the form of a lie or stealing, is not acceptable in God's presence (Exodus 20:15-15; 24:3). It needs atonement (as I will lay out shortly - see below) .

    Psalm 5:4-5 (NASB)
    4*
    For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
    No evil dwells with You.
    5*
    The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
    You hate all who do iniquity.


    Here is a portion of God's contract or covenant with Israel. He required holiness:

    Leviticus 19:2 (NASB)
    2*“Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.


    Thus, the sin offering is needed to meet the requirements of the Law, a sin offering that could not be made by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement after A.D 70 (as stipulated by the Law), nor could any of the other sin or guilt offerings REQUIRED.

    Leviticus 4 (NASB)
    The Law of Sin Offerings
    4*Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2*“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them, 3*if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer to the Lord a bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4*He shall bring the bull to the doorway of the tent of meeting before the Lord, and he shall lay his hand on the head of the bull and slay the bull before the Lord...
    13*‘Now if the whole congregation of Israel commits error and the matter escapes the notice of the assembly, and they commit any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and they become guilty; 14*when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a bull of the herd for a sin offering and bring it before the tent of meeting....
    22*‘When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the Lord his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty, 23*if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect. 24*He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the Lord; it is a sin offering. 25*Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering....
    27*‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28*if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29*He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering....
    32*‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33*He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering.

    Leviticus 5, the Guilt Offering:
    4*Or if a person swears thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, in whatever matter a man may speak thoughtlessly with an oath, and it is hidden from him, and then he comes to know it, he will be guilty in one of these. 5*So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned. 6*He shall also bring his guilt offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin. 7*‘But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the Lord his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8*He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it....11*‘But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering. 12*He shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as its memorial portion and offer it up in smoke on the altar, with the offerings of the Lord by fire: it is a sin offering...17*“Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. 18*He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him. 19*It is a guilt offering; he was certainly guilty before the Lord.”



    Leviticus 6 (NASB)
    Guilt Offering
    6*Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2*“When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the Lord, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion, 3*or has found what was lost and lied about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins in regard to any one of the things a man may do; 4*then it shall be, when he sins and becomes guilty, that he shall restore what he took by robbery or what he got by extortion, or the deposit which was entrusted to him or the lost thing which he found, 5*or anything about which he swore falsely; he shall make restitution for it in full and add to it one-fifth more. He shall give it to the one to whom it belongs on the day he presents his guilt offering. 6*Then he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the Lord, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering, 7*and the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt.”

    How is this being met today? If it is, where did God inform you/us in SCRIPTURE that He changed His covenant? Remember, the people agreed to do everything that the LORD cammanded them to do.

    Leviticus 16, The Day of Atonement:
    15*“Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16*He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities. 17*When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.... 20*“When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21*Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22*The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness....27*But the bull of the sin offering and the goat of the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be taken outside the camp, and they shall burn their hides, their flesh, and their refuse in the fire....

    An Annual Atonement
    29*“This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you; 30*for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31*It is to be a sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute. 32*So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33*and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34*Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.” And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.


    Why is this not done today? It is a permanent statute. Why is Israel not obeying the LORD God?

    Why? Because they can't. That covenant no longer exists. It has not existed since A.D. 70.

    Where is any of this being practiced by the Jews today? The mediator, the priest or high priest, could not follow the Law after A.D. 70. What does that tell you about the Law? It says to me that the Law was either changed or abrogated.

    Where is your high priest today?
    Where is the RECORD that traces him back to Arron?

    [2] The costly answer for sin to avoid punishment is the same - atonement - just a better one, as Hebrews 10:8-10 laid out. The NT sacrifice is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One, God's chosen! He is a High Priest in the order of Melchizidek. Yeshua's sin offering is better that the Levitical offering. In Adam, a man sinned against God, and thus, a man should pay for his sin. But God is graceful! The Mosaic Covenant offers animals as a provision until a righteous man was able to take away sins. Animals did not bring death into the world, to humanity (separation from that close personal relationship with God), a man did. Thus, a man needs to live the righteous life Adam failed to live before God to restore that perfect relationship with God. A man was required to pay the penalty for sin (each man, in fact, that did not meet the requirements of the OT Law, which resulted in death/separation). Adam's sin resulted in the Fall of humanity. Yeshua's sacrifice results in the redemption of humanity (those who trust in His sacrifice). Eden was restored.

    Romans 3:10*as it is written,
    “There is none righteous, not even one;
    11*
    There is none who understands,
    There is none who seeks for God;
    12*
    All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
    There is none who does good,
    There is not even one.”
    13*
    “Their throat is an open grave,
    With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
    “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
    14*
    “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
    15*
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
    16*
    Destruction and misery are in their paths,
    17*
    And the path of peace they have not known.”
    18*
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    19*Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20*because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
    Justification by Faith
    21*But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22*even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23*for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24*being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25*whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26*for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Your sins (to the Jew first did God offer this redemption), as well as the sins of the Gentiles, are met in Yeshua, if you believe!

    [3] I think the penalty was harsher for Israel, according to the NT Scriptures (not true Israel of course, which is a spiritual Israel made up of Jews and Gentiles - Jeremiah 31:31; Hebrews 8:8-13; 10:15-18). OT Israel rejected their Messiah; the one means that God has given that satisfied both His justice and His righteousness.

    Yeshua used many parables to OT Israel to convey this penalty for those who rejected their Messiah. For instance (I will sub some words in [brackets]:

    Matthew 22 (NASB)
    Parable of the Marriage Feast
    22*Jesus spoke to them
    [chief priests and the Pharisees/OT Israel, per 21:46; Matthew 3:1-12] again in parables, saying, 2*“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son [Yeshua]. 3*And he sent out his slaves [the prophets] to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they [chief priest, Pharisees, OT Israel] were unwilling to come. 4*Again he sent out other slaves [NT disciples/apostles] saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited [Israel], “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5*But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6*and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them [killing of the prophets and teachers sent to Israel]. 7*But the king [Yahweh] was enraged, and he sent his armies [the Romans] and destroyed those murderers [of Yeshua] and set their city on fire [destruction of Jerusalem]. 8*Then he *said to his slaves [those who received the message regarding Yeshua], ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited [OT Israel] were not worthy. 9*Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10*Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests [the wedding of the Lamb of God/Yeshua].
    11*“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes
    [did not use the prescibed invitation - John 3:16], 12*and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13*Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14*For many are called, but few are chosen.”


    Much more could be said on Jerusalem as it relates to the OT. The Olivet Discourse is the discourse that leads up do the destruction of the OT economy. Revelation is John's account of the discourse (Matthew 24:3; Luke 21:20-24).

    Other parables - See also Matthew 21:33-46.

    I could go through the NT pointing out over and over again how OT prophecy is being fulfilled in both parables and prophecy because the NT builds on OT Scripture.

    So, the NT prescribes a harsher punishment in that those who ignore the more significant sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23) because it rejects the Son. The penlty -> the Lake of Fire ( which I believe is separation from God and His blessing forever).

    The reason I think it is more severe is that although Israel had been disobedient to God before in the OT, and had been exiled, God was now fulfilling all righteousness so that Israel (those who would believe) would be blessed and saved. They rebelled and rejected that provision - the Son of God, the Messiah. The OT speaks of the "last days," "the/that day," "the latter times," etc.

    Deuteronomy 6:25
    It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.



    OT Israel never met those requirements, and even the faithful few who did were looking forward to the better covenant.

    [4] Romans 1:28-32; 1 Corinithians 6:9; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 22:15, 18-19.

    Your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. Just like in the OT where God reckoned righteousness to Abraham, the father of the faithful (Genesis 15:5-7), so in the NT the one who believes in Yeshua is considered righteous; not our own, but His.

    Romans 3:21-22; 4:2-23; Romans 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 1:11; Philippians 3:9; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Peter 1:1.


    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    @Peter,

    Looks like you double posted.

    I was thinking of Leviticus 6:5. It says that if someone swore falsely, lied, and stole, that he makes restitution to the party by paying the value plus a fifth, as a fine. You brought those verses too.

    You also show that the sinner offers an animal as a Temple offering for his sin. This is true. However, it does not mean that the sinner would die if he didn't bring the animal. The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Also, not every sin listed in the Torah is obligated in an animal sacrifice. So what did the sinner do then?? Die? What about if the fellow lived far from the Temple and couldn't travel there? He dies? Where does the Bible even say that?? Rather if the Bible says an animal is all you need and it doesn't say that the sinner dies without the animal, then plainly the animal is not that major of a deal.

    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    This verse that you bring from the NT is not accepted as truth by Jews. Our reasoning is that there are many things which affect atonement in the Torah without blood. You yourself said in your answer above: "...The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin..". Grain offerings do not contain blood!? How does it cover sin? There are many other cases in the Jewish Bible that show atonement for sin without blood.

    Furthermore, Annanias and Sapphira could have brought an animal as a sin offering to the Temple! They lived with Peter in Jerusalem in Acts while the Temple still stood! Why did they need to be struck down dead instantly?

    And even if you say A + S were not "real believers" and they were not able to access the atonement of the Cross, they could have been instructed to repent and believe first? And even if you will say that Jesus replaced animals, still the "unbelieving" A + S could still bring a Temple animal offering. We see this is possible for a Christian believer of that time since Paul in Acts 21 (and by his defense in 24) agreed to purify himself with 4 believers who were Nazirites. He even paid for their offerings which included sin offerings at the Temple, even years after Jesus died on the Cross!

    Finally, you even brought this verse in a previous post above: 1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

    Even the NT makes a difference between sins that are punished by death and sins that are not punished by death. Not every sin = death.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    @Peter,

    Looks like you double posted.
    Yes, I made some grammar and spelling mistakes and wanted to correct them. Sorry about that, Rabbi Dak.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    I was thinking of Leviticus 6:5. It says that if someone swore falsely, lied, and stole, that he makes restitution to the party by paying the value plus a fifth, as a fine. You brought those verses too.
    Thank you! BTW, I appreciate your perspective. Since the NT Scriptures were written by Jews (mostly) with Jews in mind, concerning their OT prophecies and Messiah, it is interesting to get a Jewish perspective on difficult passages. I believe what many people fail to take into account today is that the NT has a distinctly Jewish flavor to it because of the reasons I stated. I contend they were the relevant audience of address by Jesus concerning prophecy (John 1:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    You also show that the sinner offers an animal as a Temple offering for his sin. This is true. However, it does not mean that the sinner would die if he didn't bring the animal. The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Also, not every sin listed in the Torah is obligated in an animal sacrifice. So what did the sinner do then?? Die? What about if the fellow lived far from the Temple and couldn't travel there? He dies? Where does the Bible even say that?? Rather if the Bible says an animal is all you need and it doesn't say that the sinner dies without the animal, then plainly the animal is not that major of a deal.
    Adam did not die physically the day he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). On that very day his relationship with God changed (he died spiritually; God no longer walked with him in the Garden - Genesis 3:8) He was removed from the Garden on that day (Genesis 3:23-24). He brought curses on humanity, one of which was the curse of physical death (Genesis 3:19).

    Likewise, the person who sinned under the Mosaic Law was not necessarily killed, but his relationship with God was hampered (curses). Such death occasions did happen in the wilderness with the serpents, or for various other sinful actions where God killed a multitude of covenant believers for their sins and rebellion. He even prevented a whole generation from entering the Promised Land for their lack of faith. That generation perished in the desert. Because of their sins He brought judgment on the land, city and temple and sent them into exile.

    Because a person was not killed immediately (God's grace and mercy) did not mean that they were in right standing with God, or that they could enter His presence in their state of sinfulness.

    You are right, not every offering required an animal sacrifice. It depended on the offering and also the social standing of the sinner. If a person was poor he was still required to bring an offering. If he did not have/could not afford an animal sacrifice, then a grain offering was accepted, but it had to be the best the man could offer. If an animal, the animal had to be without spot or defect.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hebrews 9:22 (NASB)
    22*And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    This verse that you bring from the NT is not accepted as truth by Jews.
    Yes, I realize this, or perhaps you would have embraced the Messiah by now. (^8

    An animal offering to God was present through most of the OT, including during the time of Caan and Abel. (Even Abraham)

    (Romans 9:32; Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17)

    Although you do not believe in Jesus blood sacrifice (a new covenant sacrifice), there are many OT Jews who did believe because they saw the fulfillment of the OT before their eyes. By checking the OT Scriptures, they saw the prophecies applying to this Man (Yeshua) and no other. Paul/Saul, a Jew steeped in OT tradition and knowledge, once vigourously opposed to Christianity now encouraged all to search the Scriptures to see if what was said lined up with OT Scripture (Acts 17:10-12).

    I, as a Gentile, was privileged to work with Jews for Jesus in Toronto on one of their two-week campaigns in the 1980's. I have witnessed Jews who believe in Jesus! It was a privilege and one of the greatest spiritual blessing of my life to date to serve with them for that short period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Our reasoning is that there are many things which affect atonement in the Torah without blood. You yourself said in your answer above: "...The animal or grain sacrifice was a measure that covered sin..". Grain offerings do not contain blood!? How does it cover sin? There are many other cases in the Jewish Bible that show atonement for sin without blood.
    A tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering was a provision if one could not afford an animal.

    Sin and guilt offerings still required an atonement, and it depended on the means of the person who offended God to supply the offering to the priest, for the very reason that God is pure and holy and He will not accept sin in His presence.

    The all important Day of Atonement required an animal sacrifice.

    Numbers 29:7-11 (NASB)
    The Day of Atonement
    7*“‘On the tenth day of this seventh month hold a sacred assembly. You must deny yourselves[e] and do no work. 8*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 9*With the bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; 10*and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. 11*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the sin offering for atonement and the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.

    Over and over again in the OT, we see God's offense against a stiff-necked covenant people. He sends prophets and teachers to these people to get them to turn from their sins. Daniel 9:1-23 is about Daniel's recognition of the people's iniquity and their plight and demise because of sin (Daniel 9:4-6, as an example). Remember, Deuteronomy 28 contained both blessings of obedience and curses for disobedience.

    Concerning the grain offering, C. W. Slemming, Thus Shalt Thou Serve, has documented the five Levitical offerings, as well as the feasts of the covenant; the Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering, the Peace Offering, the Sin Offering and the Guilt or Tresspass Offering. He says,

    "The offerings, with one exception, were sacrificial and required the shedding of blood. This is because they were figurative of the one sacrifice which was to be made once in the end of the age in the death of the Lord Jesus Christ." p. 9

    It is when a person could not afford a blood offering for sin that the tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering was accepted.

    He goes on to say that,
    "The holiness of God demanded a sacrifice.
    The majesty of God required certain regulations.
    The honor of God necessitated a code of conduct.
    The perfection of God expected the best of its kind.
    The purity of God deserved freedom from blemish.
    The sovereignty of God meant absolute obedience to detail." p.9-10


    Well said! He explain why there were five offerings since no one offering could capture the perfect offering made by Yeshua. Remember also, when Moses was instructed to build the tabernacle, it, as well as all its utensils, was made according to the pattern.
    The same is true of the priest's garments -> made to pattern. 'According to a pattern' -> all pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ. God has a purpose in all He does, including the order of the sacrifices and the feasts! The feast also were all pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ -> according to pattern.

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...bbath-rest.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...t-passover.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...unleavened.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...rst-fruits.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-pentecost.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...t-trumpets.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-atonement.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...tonement02.htm
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...abernacles.htm

    (You, Rabbi, mentioned that you have just celebrated the last feast on the list, but you cannot offer in God's prescribed manner as required by the Mosaic Law. How is this if the Law still stands?)

    Numbers 29:12-39
    The Festival of Tabernacles
    12*“‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. Celebrate a festival to the Lord for seven days. 13*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of thirteen young bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 14*With each of the thirteen bulls offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with each of the two rams, two-tenths; 15*and with each of the fourteen lambs, one-tenth. 16*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    17*“‘On the second day offer twelve young bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 18*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 19*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.
    20*“‘On the third day offer eleven bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 21*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 22*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    23*“‘On the fourth day offer ten bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 24*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 25*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    26*“‘On the fifth day offer nine bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 27*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 28*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    29*“‘On the sixth day offer eight bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 30*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 31*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    32*“‘On the seventh day offer seven bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect. 33*With the bulls, rams and lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 34*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    35*“‘On the eighth day hold a closing special assembly and do no regular work. 36*Present as an aroma pleasing to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of one bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 37*With the bull, the ram and the lambs, offer their grain offerings and drink offerings according to the number specified. 38*Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular burnt offering with its grain offering and drink offering.
    39*“‘In addition to what you vow and your freewill offerings, offer these to the Lord at your appointed festivals: your burnt offerings, grain offerings, drink offerings and fellowship offerings.’”
    40*Moses told the Israelites all that the Lord commanded him.


    Some of the offerings were voluntary, but the sin and guilt offerings were compulsory.

    So, the offerings CANNOT be completed as prescribed by the Mosaic Law.
    The feast offerings CANNOT be completed as prescribe by the Mosaic Law.

    The Mosaic Law could cover the sin of a person but it could not remove it. Even after completion of the offering, as soon as the person sinned again he was guilty before the Lord God. That is the downfall of the Mosaic Covenant. (Romans 8:3; Galatians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21, per page 46-47)

    That, I contend is one of the reasons that God removed it, took it out of the way so that the only covenant in effect was the New Covenant.

    ***

    For those who could not afford the greater animal sacrifices here are the provisions:

    7*“‘Anyone who cannot afford a lamb is to bring two doves or two young pigeons to the Lord as a penalty for their sin—one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8*They are to bring them to the priest, who shall first offer the one for the sin offering. He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely, 9*and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10*The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.
    11*“‘If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12*They are to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the food offerings presented to the Lord. It is a sin offering. 13*In this way the priest will make atonement for them for any of these sins they have committed, and they will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering.’”

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Furthermore, Annanias and Sapphira could have brought an animal as a sin offering to the Temple! They lived with Peter in Jerusalem in Acts while the Temple still stood! Why did they need to be struck down dead instantly?
    Because they lied to God and were deceptively hidding their dishonest to the Holy Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    And even if you say A + S were not "real believers" and they were not able to access the atonement of the Cross, they could have been instructed to repent and believe first? And even if you will say that Jesus replaced animals, still the "unbelieving" A + S could still bring a Temple animal offering. We see this is possible for a Christian believer of that time since Paul in Acts 21 (and by his defense in 24) agreed to purify himself with 4 believers who were Nazirites. He even paid for their offerings which included sin offerings at the Temple, even years after Jesus died on the Cross!
    David Curtis brings up this point:

    "There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB)
    Did you notice that out of these seven abominations, two of them deal with lying? God hates lying!"

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/acts/5_1-11.htm

    The sermon also covers your question on whether they were believers and if they were what sins resulted in death.

    The interesting thing I find about Acts is that they were still brings gifts and offerings to the temple, showing that the temple still stood upon the writing of the NT book of Acts. You find in every NT epistle or Gospel the soon, near, coming judgment against these OT people. You find no mention in any NT epistle the already destruction of the temple and city, something astonishingly strange given the fact that the epistles deal so much about Jewish ritual, sacrifices, atonement, and economy. These things mean nothing after A.D. 70. The Gospel's and epistles have constant warning to flee from the coming wrath. That wrath came in A.D. 70. Revelation is an expansion on the Olivet Discourse (if you like John's rendering of it).

    Whether A & S were true believers or not is not for me to decide. That belongs to the Lord to judge. I can just say that there were sins that resulted in death. One was blasphemy against the Spirit. Peter told them they had lied to the Spirit. I do not believe a true believer would fall under this sin. Some sins did result in death. Some sins did not result in immediate death, but all sin that is not satisfactorily atoned for is judged by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Finally, you even brought this verse in a previous post above: 1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
    Yes, the church at Corinth was an example. They were practicing all kinds of sexually immoral acts and the Apostle Paul was rebuking them for their sexual misconduct and reminding them of the covenant they were under and of the need to repent. Those sins had not resulted in death to that point.

    Again, David Curtis answers this question in the link under the title, "Were Ananias and Sapphira saved, were they believers?":

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...cts/5_1-11.htm

    I respect David Curtis, but you make your own mind up whether you think his argument is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Even the NT makes a difference between sins that are punished by death and sins that are not punished by death. Not every sin = death.
    Sins that are met by Jesus' sacrifice do not result in the believers spiritual death (separation from God), but they can result in the believer's physical death and a loss of reward (1 Corinthians 3:13-15). Yeshua already paid the penalty for all our sins and if we truly believe in Yeshua, then His sin offering has been accepted by God on our behalf.

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Certainly an interesting discussion. What was the inspiration behind it?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    The success of the conclusion as a cohesive argument hinges on whether "cannot be punished" applies to the future or the present. In your second premise you reference a future event that we can reasonably assume hasn't yet occurred. If we assume that this is the punishment being referred to in your conclusion, then it certainly would seem to follow that true-believing Christians won't be punished for their sins (by being cast into the lake of hellfire). Most Christians would agree to all three premises and there is certainly sufficient textual evidence for it.

    If we are also to assume that this freedom from punishment extends to the present day however, the argument starts to fall apart for lack of sufficient evidence. You have even highlighted passages from the NT manuscripts that contradict that assumption, which undermines the conclusion.

    This means you need to support your premises. What evidence is there that Christians are free from being punished for sin in the present day / while they are alive?

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Thanks,

    The inspiration was twofold.

    1) I wanted to spark a new discussion on ODN. This is just doing my part to increase quality discussion.

    2) When looking for a good debate, my Jewish Talmudic training teaches me that it is always better to investigate a system of belief for internal consistency rather than simply saying the other party is right or wrong about facts/beliefs in general. This makes sure we never debate pure opinion vs. opinion. After all, if you have any opinion, how can I surely say you are wrong? You are entitled to an opinion. But, if you contradict yourself, you lose because in essence you have no opinion.

    For instance: Did Jesus really exist? is not as good a question as : "Turn the other cheek" vs. Jesus telling his disciples to acquire swords?

    Seeing if people can explain apparent internal contradiction within a belief system seems to always produce the best discussions.

    3) In my experience as a theologian, I have never found a Christian to be able to properly address this one. I study religions and certainly the important religion called Christianity. There are many good and intelligent Christians willing to be open-minded (as opposed to many other religions where it is harder to find open-minded people). This particular internal question doesn't seem to have produced answers among apologists. I may just be ignorant about that, so I ask here.

    So to respond to you Freund,

    A) The future event of eternal hellfire as a punishment as well as general "eternal seperation from God" does still seem to be quite possible for believing Christians according to the NT. I think I have shown some examples for that in my response to Mr. Hyde.

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

    Do these verses not tell us that Christians may still suffer future punishment in the afterlife?

    B) You ask: "This means you need to support your premises. What evidence is there that Christians are free from being punished for sin in the present day / while they are alive?"

    I thought that Mathew 6 which I provided above, (The Lord's Prayer) shows that Jesus instituted a daily prayer for Christians. In that prayer, it asks for forgiveness of sin ("debt") on a daily basis. If Christians claim that only the blood of the cross grants forgiveness, then we see that daily forgiveness is available under the cross, otherwise the daily request for forgiveness would be meaningless?
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Thanks,

    The inspiration was twofold.

    1) I wanted to spark a new discussion on ODN. This is just doing my part to increase quality discussion.

    2) When looking for a good debate, my Jewish Talmudic training teaches me that it is always better to investigate a system of belief for internal consistency rather than simply saying the other party is right or wrong about facts/beliefs in general. This makes sure we never debate pure opinion vs. opinion. After all, if you have any opinion, how can I surely say you are wrong? You are entitled to an opinion. But, if you contradict yourself, you lose because in essence you have no opinion.
    I appreciate this thought (underlined)! I too take a particular interest in worldviews and how they are justified by their adherents.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    For instance: Did Jesus really exist? is not as good a question as : "Turn the other cheek" vs. Jesus telling his disciples to acquire swords?

    Seeing if people can explain apparent internal contradiction within a belief system seems to always produce the best discussions.
    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period. The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70. There is no more Levitical priesthood (destroyed in the temple fire is the genealogies that trace the lineage, plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions). There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Hi Peter,

    Please feel free to debate anything with me. I am flattered by your challenge. I would suggest that you can debate the question of Jews being under the Mosaic Law after 70 CE. etc.

    I suggest you start a thread with a point of challenge; as this thread is devoted to a different subject.

    TY
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    First I think there is a distinction in regards to a kind of "faith only" approach to salvation.
    I think some of the examples of believers being punished for sin, is because that is only half the salvation equation. That faith must be coupled with works or else it is dead. (James 2:14-26)
    So basically premise #3 is incomplete.

    That said, such people still die, and get sick etc. (Paul was sick..possibly.., and several NT peoples were prayed for because they were sick) So the objection with #3 alone is not enough to answer the OP's question.
    This can be brought more to a head with he statement that "by his wounds we were healed". (1 peter 2:21-25).

    With some of those thoughts in mind..
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    I would say that for the most part what we experience in this life is no "punishment" for sin. It is the consequence of sin.
    So that if you cut your hand off, God has not punished you to a life without a hand, you have the effects of your actions.

    This is why there is sickness and death in the world, it is a consequence of sin and not only the consequence of our own but the sins of others as well, not a punishment from God. Not that God can't judge with those things, as various plagues and famines of the OT come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    So, to the question of Christs death atoning for what I will call is the effects of sin. Biblicaly He has, but it is completed in the future when he returns and re-makes the earth. We see this in our own selves where we are baptized into Christ's death, in faith that we will rise again just as he did, and that then we will receive our renewed bodies.

    This would place the stated objection as a kind of timing thing .. "why not now?".

    Anyway, I don't want to run away with this, I would rather get some feedback.

    To summarize, I think the questions misunderstand two things.
    1) The nature of salvation (faith that works, vs faith alone).
    2) The process of redemption. (IE we were never told our current bodies would be perfected, rather that we would receive upon His return glorified bodies) (1 John 3:2)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  16. #16
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Thanks for sharing!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Do these verses not tell us that Christians may still suffer future punishment in the afterlife?
    That depends on what you mean by 'Christian'. If you mean any person that calls him/herself Christian, then the above statement holds. I think that is too broad a definition, given Jesus' teaching recorded in Matthew 7:21-23:

    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    There is clearly a difference between someone who simply believes in Jesus and a true disciple of Jesus, and the distinction makes the difference concerning eternal punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    I thought that Mathew 6 which I provided above, (The Lord's Prayer) shows that Jesus instituted a daily prayer for Christians. In that prayer, it asks for forgiveness of sin ("debt") on a daily basis. If Christians claim that only the blood of the cross grants forgiveness, then we see that daily forgiveness is available under the cross, otherwise the daily request for forgiveness would be meaningless?
    It does not follow that because one is forgiven of one's sin that one is also free from the consequences of that sin. You need to show that link.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    MT wrote:

    I would say that for the most part what we experience in this life is no "punishment" for sin. It is the consequence of sin.
    So that if you cut your hand off, God has not punished you to a life without a hand, you have the effects of your actions.

    This is why there is sickness and death in the world, it is a consequence of sin and not only the consequence of our own but the sins of others as well, not a punishment from God. Not that God can't judge with those things, as various plagues and famines of the OT come to mind.


    Freund wrote:

    It does not follow that because one is forgiven of one's sin that one is also free from the consequences of that sin. You need to show that link.

    I want to clarify what this means before addressing the rest. I think this is a very important attempt at a distinction. But, is it really a distinction; or just smoke and mirror semantics?

    Son.... I just want you to know .... this hurts me more than it hurts you ... but, you are truly forgiven... BLAM! reload double barrel shotgun with more rocksalt...

    What is the difference between punishment and consequence?

    I am thinking that the two are really the same. If God in his justice decides that a certain action deserves a penalty, then we call that punishment. If you are free of punishment, and get the negative penalty anyway... is that not punishment? Why would calling it by the name "consequence" change anything? Sin only has consequences because God made it that way, because of truth and justice.

    Sinner : I believe in Jesus !
    Pastor: Son, you are forgiven!

    Sinner smiles and leaves the church... BAM! He is hit by a truck crossing the street.

    Sinner goes to heaven.....

    Sinner: I am so glad I spent my last minutes believing in Jesus!! He died on the cross for me...Amazing Grace...
    Jesus: Hi there... I never knew you... into the lake of fire!
    Sinner: But wait! Why would you punish me??
    Jesus: I am not punishing you... I died for you and you are fully clean and forgiven! Now into the lake of eternal hell with the Devil..
    Sinner: If I am forgiven, why was I hit by a truck and thrown into eternal flames?
    Jesus: That's the "consequence" of sin. Here, you will need this: (hands him a bottle of A-1 steak sauce)
    Sinner: But my Pastor said I was clean and...
    Jesus: Don't worry, he is joining you here tomorrow. Ask him...

    So can either of you accept the burden of proof to show the difference between punishment and consequence of sin? Does it make any difference?

    To Freund, I would specifically ask: How can someone be forgiven of sin, and yet still be punished for it? Of what practical use is forgiveness? If someone is both punished and not forgiven, how does that differ from someone who is forgiven and punished as well? This is especially a glaring question if the punishment is eternal hellfire?

    TY
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    I am thinking that the two are really the same. If God in his justice decides that a certain action deserves a penalty, then we call that punishment. If you are free of punishment, and get the negative penalty anyway... is that not punishment? Why would calling it by the name "consequence" change anything? Sin only has consequences because God made it that way, because of truth and justice.
    If I cut my hand off, do I lack a hand because God decreed that cutting your hand of will be punished with a life without a hand.
    Or.
    Is the natural logical conclusion to cutting your hand off, that you then do not have a hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Son.... I just want you to know .... this hurts me more than it hurts you ... but, you are truly forgiven... BLAM! reload double barrel shotgun with more rocksalt...
    I think this perfectly exemplifies the difference between a consequence of actions, and judgment.
    A judge must take an action, in order for it to be called "judgment" where as a consequence is a natural result.

    So if God is taking an action, then you can call it judgment.. but if he is not, then it is simply consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Sinner : I believe in Jesus !
    Pastor: Son, you are forgiven!
    The example is a straw-man, and does not occur according to Christianity. Though I do appreciate the attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    So can either of you accept the burden of proof to show the difference between punishment and consequence of sin? Does it make any difference?
    I made an effort to answer this above. I look forward to the exchange on it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    @MT

    You wrote: "If I cut my hand off, do I lack a hand because God decreed that cutting your hand off will be punished with a life without a hand.
    Or.
    Is the natural logical conclusion to cutting your hand off, that you then do not have a hand?"


    Put that way, it sounds like a difference. Lets examine it to see if it is?

    Who made the decree that a man's hand does not usually grow back after being cut off? Who created the nature of the world to be like that? Only the Almighty can say that a man's hand will not grow and a lizard's tail will regenerate. Does it matter if the decree was issued by God before men were born, or if it was decreed after the person chopped his hand off? What difference does it make?

    However, here we are applying your parable of the hand to sin. That makes it harder, I think. In your hand example, the person may or may not be sinning by chopping off his hand. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston)

    So cutting off a hand leads to consequences in the natural world. And we can entertain for sake of argument that the creator doesn't decree every incident upon man. (although I hold He does.) So maybe it isn't a form of judgment after all.

    But, if you tell me that it is a natural consequence of the creation, (this trait is hardwired into creation as part of the very plan under which the world functions) that a sinner will become naturally sick, or suffer other mishaps, then who decreed it so? If the creator decreed it from the beginning that sins cause death, then its a prejudgment on His part. So it is a punishment. God has pre-decreed punishment upon the sinner in this world by the world's created nature. Such a "consequence" is just another word for punishment. Is it not? If not, why not?

    Also, even if we did accept that the "consequences of sin" are automatic by nature (the soul reacts to sin by dying or getting sick) and therefore are not "punishments" (Although they could be as you pointed out, if God was directing them as an active judge, per case and after the fact.) we still must ask ourselves what possible difference it makes?

    Remember, we are asking if someone who believes in the simple meaning of Romans 8:1, ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.") would also expect that "consequences of sin" were cancelled as well as judgments of sin? If not, then what was accomplished? Is there any salvation for the sinner?

    To make the question plain:

    John Paganson is a pagan who rejects Jesus. He sins this afternoon. He is both subject to the judgment AND consequences of sin.

    Bob Christianson is a believing Christian ala Romans 8. He belongs to the church. This afternoon, he sins by the same sin John the pagan did.

    Bob is subject to the consequences of his sin, but not the judgment, right?

    If so, please show us how in practical terms, John's fate is different from the fate of Bob.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)

    I quoted this above in the thread. Does it not say that an earthly policeman is used as God's servant to bring "punishment" (not consequence) upon the wrongdoer. These hypothetical wrongdoers were the people Paul was preaching to in Romans (meaning believing Christians). Yet, he calls the "consequence" of sin meted out by the police in this world by the term "punishment".

    How do you explain this?
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 10th, 2017 at 05:34 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  20. #20
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Who made the decree that a man's hand does not usually grow back after being cut off? Who created the nature of the world to be like that? Only the Almighty can say that a man's hand will not grow and a lizard's tail will regenerate. Does it matter if the decree was issued by God before men were born, or if it was decreed after the person chopped his hand off? What difference does it make?
    I would argue that judgment by it's nature is reactive, not preemptive. So if God decreed that your hand wouldn't grow back.. when everyone else naturally does, then that would be a "punishment". Again an agent ruling choice.
    Further, you do not know if hands not growing back is a judgment (IE a conscious choice to punish) or simply a design trait, that just so happens to be unhelpful. ... Like not having wings. Are we "punished" to not have wings? Is it the result of some "wrong" or "Sin"?
    Can't any design feature fall into this reasoning? IE you are punished to have only 5 toes? Instead of feet that morph into flippers whenever you wish to swim.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    But, if you tell me that it is a natural consequence of the creation, (this trait is hardwired into creation as part of the very plan under which the world functions) that a sinner will become naturally sick, or suffer other mishaps, then who decreed it so? If the creator decreed it from the beginning that sins cause death, then its a prejudgment on His part. So it is a punishment. God has pre-decreed punishment upon the sinner in this world by the world's created nature. Such a "consequence" is just another word for punishment. Is it not? If not, why not?
    Then "punishment" means nothing, for even if the hand had grown back, it would be by the same decree of God. So then that would be the "punishment"?
    Thus, EVERYTHING becomes a punishment, and the word loses any distinct meaning. Go to heaven.. "punishment" go to hell "punishment", get sick and die "punishment" live forever "punishment", be poor "punishment" be rich "punishment".
    It means nothing and there is no distinction from it and even it's opposite "reward". .. At least as you have used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Remember, we are asking if someone who believes in the simple meaning of Romans 8:1, ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.") would also expect that "consequences of sin" were cancelled as well as judgments of sin? If not, then what was accomplished? Is there any salvation for the sinner?
    Opperating under my position where punishment is distinct from natural effects.
    You are conflating "salvation" with "consequences of sin".

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    To make the question plain:

    John Paganson is a pagan who rejects Jesus. He sins this afternoon. He is both subject to the judgment AND consequences of sin.

    Bob Christianson is a believing Christian ala Romans 8. He belongs to the church. This afternoon, he sins by the same sin John the pagan did.

    Bob is subject to the consequences of his sin, but not the judgment, right?

    If so, please show us how in practical terms, John's fate is different from the fate of Bob.
    Lets be specific to the sin.
    Lets say they both got drunk so often so as to destroy their liver and thus die.
    Johns fate was different in that He was made righteous in the sight of God at the judgment. While pagan John, remains separated from God whom he rejected, and is thus rejected by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    I quoted this above in the thread. Does it not say that an earthly policeman is used as God's servant to bring "punishment" (not consequence) upon the wrongdoer. These hypothetical wrongdoers were the people Paul was preaching to in Romans (meaning believing Christians). Yet, he calls the "consequence" of sin meted out by the police in this world by the term "punishment".

    How do you explain this?
    Going to jail is not a "natural occurrence" and has an active agent. Which is what I went by earlier as the distinction.
    Judgment is thus.. judgment and punishment.
    And My point is on firm footing for consistency in the distinction being pointed out.


    --
    I would say this finally about natural consequences.
    We have two choices in our life. Live in accordance to God, or life in rebellion to him.
    As rebellion to God is by it's very nature a rejection of Life, and the source of all life and light within whom there is no shadow of turning, who gives good things and adds no evil to them. It is thus inherently and naturally the choice to follow death. God need not decree anything for this to be the case. It may even be that God has decreed a much lesser fate then outright death and thus shown exceeding mercy.. not "Judgment". After all why don't we drop dead from the slightest sin, or worse live forever separated from him? (Romans 3:25)


    ---
    Finally rabbi I think I have challenged your use of the meaning "punishment" so as to justify a request that you define it and explain how it is (or is not) distinct from all of creation and all opposite claims (see first section).
    Your position and objections along these lines seem inconsistent and unsustainable. Though that is to be debated.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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