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  1. #1
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    Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    It is my understanding that Christianity (New Testament doctrine?) says the following:

    1) All people are sinners.

    2) All sinners are "damned" for eternity. They will be punished by being thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire.

    3) However... if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept him as lord and savior, you are forgiven all of your sins. The blood of Jesus fully atones for you.

    (BTW: I have written #1-#3 without proof citations because I thought it is a recitation of the obvious. If I am wrong, or this post needs the verses, I would be happy if someone helps me edit etc.)

    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?

    Is that the case in this world and the next world?

    If it is not, and Christians are still being punished for sin, then what was the use of the sacrifice of Jesus?

    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?

    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?
    Does it? I don't recall anywhere off the top of my head where it talks about Christians being punished for sin. I know Stephen was stoned to death, but that wasn't for sin, that was martyrdom. It refers to the many times Paul was beaten and left for dead or thrown in jail, but those too weren't sin-related. They were, like Stephen's case, a result of his speaking his faith. John and Peter were arrested and beaten for the same thing. Beyond that, I don't recall anyone specifically being mentioned as afflicted with anything grievous, much less it being a result of sin. But I may have missed something.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Does it? I don't recall anywhere off the top of my head where it talks about Christians being punished for sin. I know Stephen was stoned to death, but that wasn't for sin, that was martyrdom. It refers to the many times Paul was beaten and left for dead or thrown in jail, but those too weren't sin-related. They were, like Stephen's case, a result of his speaking his faith. John and Peter were arrested and beaten for the same thing. Beyond that, I don't recall anyone specifically being mentioned as afflicted with anything grievous, much less it being a result of sin. But I may have missed something.
    I would agree that if bad things happen to Christians, it is not a proof in and of itself, that those Christians were being punished for sin. However, if the text of Scripture declares or shows the subject Christian being punished for a sin or sins, then we should examine it.

    1 Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property. 2 He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land? 4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”

    5 When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it. 6 So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened. 8 Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.” 9 Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!” 10 At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things. (Acts 5:1-11)


    It would seem that this Christian couple (who were among the early believers in Peter's church) were punished for lying about charity funds and stealing those funds and breaking their vow of charity. This punishment met them, regardless of their belief in the blood of Jesus.

    This punishment would seem to even be meted out in the eternal afterlife as well according to the NT. Jesus is quoted in Revelations 21:8 as follows:

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:10, would seem to imply that reward and punishment is not done away with for believers:

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    The NT also teaches, that local law enforcement, (police or similar earthly authorities) are heavenly agents to mete out punishment against sinners. Paul in Romans preaches this to Christian believers.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)

    Mathew 6, has Jesus author a prayer for his followers. It is obvious that a follower of Jesus certainly believes in him and his sacrifice on the cross etc. Yet, a key aspect of the daily prayer a Christian is to utter, includes a blanket forgiveness of the "debts" other people owe to the supplicant. Jesus explains why in verses 14-15:

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    So it would seem that any Christian will not be forgiven for sins unless they also forgive everyone who sinned against them too. Tell me, do all believing Christians forgive everyone? I am talking about this level of forgiveness as well:

    Mathew 18 (21-35)"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

    Jesus then teaches a parable which explains the fate of a Christian who will not forgive every misdeed of anyone against him.

    "32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

    My point here is that Christians can still be punished for their sins, under certain circumstances, regardless of their belief in the atoning blood of Jesus. This point is especially strong, when the "exception" to atonement, is something that many many human Christians, would find it difficult to overcome. In this case, what human finds it easy to grant blanket forgiveness upon anyone who has sinned against them, carte blanche??

    If many thousands of lawsuits in the courts of the United States (a mostly Christian country) are being filed daily, what does that say about the ability of Christians to forgive their brothers and sisters?

    I pose that if the so called free gift of atonement in Christ, is in fact conditional upon something that most people find extremely difficult to overcome, then what good is it for general salvation? Put another way... If we knew the number of people eligible to receive atonement and eternal life under the simple "believe in Jesus" plan AND we knew the number of eligible people under the modified "conditional plan" where you need to forgive the world who stepped on you as well, (plus belief in Jesus) in order to be forgiven... would those numbers have dropped significantly?

    One more group of verses comes to mind.

    Ephesians 5: 3-6 "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

    Colossians 3:5-11 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

    The message is clear that certain sins will still bring wrath upon Christians and cause them to lose any portion in the kingdom of Christ.

    Finally (and there is more, but this should be enough to debate for now), why do Christians die, work hard, and have pain during child birth? Although we are going back to what Christians call the "Old Testament" for this question, it does seem relevant since it is an ongoing fact. Besides, it is "original sin", so it is very relevant. The punishment for all mankind because of original sin, is spelled out in Genesis 3.

    Gen 3: 16-19 "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be towards your husband, but he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    If death, working hard for a living, and labor pains, are the punishment for sin.... then why do believing Christians still endure punishment for that sin? The only thing that seems to have happened to alleviate the punishment, is that modern day women have at least overcome the verse that says men will "rule over them". Ironically, the Church has overturned that for Christians with Ephesians 5:24 "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.".

    This can only leave us to wonder: Has the women's liberation movement accomplished more towards the forgiveness of sin than the blood of Christ?

    So to summarize until now:

    1) Annanias and Saphira were punished for lying to the church, and withholding charity that was vowed. They, being liars, are not only given death as punishment in this world, but are given the second death in the afterlife via the lake of eternal fire.

    2) Second Corinthians has a general statement that "all" must go through judgment before Christ and receive their due for any evil done while they were in the body on Earth.

    3) If you do not forgive anyone who sinned against you, then you will not be forgiven, regardless of your belief in Christ.

    4) Sexual immorality and evil desire (even filthy jokes) as well as other sins listed above, from murder to being "cowardly" will bring wrath and condemnation upon Christians.

    5) Prison sentences and traffic tickets are all heavenly punishments that are meted out even to Christian sinners. Belief in the atoning death at Calvary, is not a "get out of jail free" card in this world.

    6) Punishments for original sin have not been atoned for by Jesus.
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 10th, 2017 at 05:35 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  6. #4
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Certainly an interesting discussion. What was the inspiration behind it?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    The success of the conclusion as a cohesive argument hinges on whether "cannot be punished" applies to the future or the present. In your second premise you reference a future event that we can reasonably assume hasn't yet occurred. If we assume that this is the punishment being referred to in your conclusion, then it certainly would seem to follow that true-believing Christians won't be punished for their sins (by being cast into the lake of hellfire). Most Christians would agree to all three premises and there is certainly sufficient textual evidence for it.

    If we are also to assume that this freedom from punishment extends to the present day however, the argument starts to fall apart for lack of sufficient evidence. You have even highlighted passages from the NT manuscripts that contradict that assumption, which undermines the conclusion.

    This means you need to support your premises. What evidence is there that Christians are free from being punished for sin in the present day / while they are alive?

  7. #5
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    First I think there is a distinction in regards to a kind of "faith only" approach to salvation.
    I think some of the examples of believers being punished for sin, is because that is only half the salvation equation. That faith must be coupled with works or else it is dead. (James 2:14-26)
    So basically premise #3 is incomplete.

    That said, such people still die, and get sick etc. (Paul was sick..possibly.., and several NT peoples were prayed for because they were sick) So the objection with #3 alone is not enough to answer the OP's question.
    This can be brought more to a head with he statement that "by his wounds we were healed". (1 peter 2:21-25).

    With some of those thoughts in mind..
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    I would say that for the most part what we experience in this life is no "punishment" for sin. It is the consequence of sin.
    So that if you cut your hand off, God has not punished you to a life without a hand, you have the effects of your actions.

    This is why there is sickness and death in the world, it is a consequence of sin and not only the consequence of our own but the sins of others as well, not a punishment from God. Not that God can't judge with those things, as various plagues and famines of the OT come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    So, to the question of Christs death atoning for what I will call is the effects of sin. Biblicaly He has, but it is completed in the future when he returns and re-makes the earth. We see this in our own selves where we are baptized into Christ's death, in faith that we will rise again just as he did, and that then we will receive our renewed bodies.

    This would place the stated objection as a kind of timing thing .. "why not now?".

    Anyway, I don't want to run away with this, I would rather get some feedback.

    To summarize, I think the questions misunderstand two things.
    1) The nature of salvation (faith that works, vs faith alone).
    2) The process of redemption. (IE we were never told our current bodies would be perfected, rather that we would receive upon His return glorified bodies) (1 John 3:2)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  9. #6
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Thanks,

    The inspiration was twofold.

    1) I wanted to spark a new discussion on ODN. This is just doing my part to increase quality discussion.

    2) When looking for a good debate, my Jewish Talmudic training teaches me that it is always better to investigate a system of belief for internal consistency rather than simply saying the other party is right or wrong about facts/beliefs in general. This makes sure we never debate pure opinion vs. opinion. After all, if you have any opinion, how can I surely say you are wrong? You are entitled to an opinion. But, if you contradict yourself, you lose because in essence you have no opinion.

    For instance: Did Jesus really exist? is not as good a question as : "Turn the other cheek" vs. Jesus telling his disciples to acquire swords?

    Seeing if people can explain apparent internal contradiction within a belief system seems to always produce the best discussions.

    3) In my experience as a theologian, I have never found a Christian to be able to properly address this one. I study religions and certainly the important religion called Christianity. There are many good and intelligent Christians willing to be open-minded (as opposed to many other religions where it is harder to find open-minded people). This particular internal question doesn't seem to have produced answers among apologists. I may just be ignorant about that, so I ask here.

    So to respond to you Freund,

    A) The future event of eternal hellfire as a punishment as well as general "eternal seperation from God" does still seem to be quite possible for believing Christians according to the NT. I think I have shown some examples for that in my response to Mr. Hyde.

    "8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    14 "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

    Do these verses not tell us that Christians may still suffer future punishment in the afterlife?

    B) You ask: "This means you need to support your premises. What evidence is there that Christians are free from being punished for sin in the present day / while they are alive?"

    I thought that Mathew 6 which I provided above, (The Lord's Prayer) shows that Jesus instituted a daily prayer for Christians. In that prayer, it asks for forgiveness of sin ("debt") on a daily basis. If Christians claim that only the blood of the cross grants forgiveness, then we see that daily forgiveness is available under the cross, otherwise the daily request for forgiveness would be meaningless?
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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  11. #7
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Thanks for sharing!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Do these verses not tell us that Christians may still suffer future punishment in the afterlife?
    That depends on what you mean by 'Christian'. If you mean any person that calls him/herself Christian, then the above statement holds. I think that is too broad a definition, given Jesus' teaching recorded in Matthew 7:21-23:

    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    There is clearly a difference between someone who simply believes in Jesus and a true disciple of Jesus, and the distinction makes the difference concerning eternal punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    I thought that Mathew 6 which I provided above, (The Lord's Prayer) shows that Jesus instituted a daily prayer for Christians. In that prayer, it asks for forgiveness of sin ("debt") on a daily basis. If Christians claim that only the blood of the cross grants forgiveness, then we see that daily forgiveness is available under the cross, otherwise the daily request for forgiveness would be meaningless?
    It does not follow that because one is forgiven of one's sin that one is also free from the consequences of that sin. You need to show that link.

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  13. #8
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    MT wrote:

    I would say that for the most part what we experience in this life is no "punishment" for sin. It is the consequence of sin.
    So that if you cut your hand off, God has not punished you to a life without a hand, you have the effects of your actions.

    This is why there is sickness and death in the world, it is a consequence of sin and not only the consequence of our own but the sins of others as well, not a punishment from God. Not that God can't judge with those things, as various plagues and famines of the OT come to mind.


    Freund wrote:

    It does not follow that because one is forgiven of one's sin that one is also free from the consequences of that sin. You need to show that link.

    I want to clarify what this means before addressing the rest. I think this is a very important attempt at a distinction. But, is it really a distinction; or just smoke and mirror semantics?

    Son.... I just want you to know .... this hurts me more than it hurts you ... but, you are truly forgiven... BLAM! reload double barrel shotgun with more rocksalt...

    What is the difference between punishment and consequence?

    I am thinking that the two are really the same. If God in his justice decides that a certain action deserves a penalty, then we call that punishment. If you are free of punishment, and get the negative penalty anyway... is that not punishment? Why would calling it by the name "consequence" change anything? Sin only has consequences because God made it that way, because of truth and justice.

    Sinner : I believe in Jesus !
    Pastor: Son, you are forgiven!

    Sinner smiles and leaves the church... BAM! He is hit by a truck crossing the street.

    Sinner goes to heaven.....

    Sinner: I am so glad I spent my last minutes believing in Jesus!! He died on the cross for me...Amazing Grace...
    Jesus: Hi there... I never knew you... into the lake of fire!
    Sinner: But wait! Why would you punish me??
    Jesus: I am not punishing you... I died for you and you are fully clean and forgiven! Now into the lake of eternal hell with the Devil..
    Sinner: If I am forgiven, why was I hit by a truck and thrown into eternal flames?
    Jesus: That's the "consequence" of sin. Here, you will need this: (hands him a bottle of A-1 steak sauce)
    Sinner: But my Pastor said I was clean and...
    Jesus: Don't worry, he is joining you here tomorrow. Ask him...

    So can either of you accept the burden of proof to show the difference between punishment and consequence of sin? Does it make any difference?

    To Freund, I would specifically ask: How can someone be forgiven of sin, and yet still be punished for it? Of what practical use is forgiveness? If someone is both punished and not forgiven, how does that differ from someone who is forgiven and punished as well? This is especially a glaring question if the punishment is eternal hellfire?

    TY
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    I am thinking that the two are really the same. If God in his justice decides that a certain action deserves a penalty, then we call that punishment. If you are free of punishment, and get the negative penalty anyway... is that not punishment? Why would calling it by the name "consequence" change anything? Sin only has consequences because God made it that way, because of truth and justice.
    If I cut my hand off, do I lack a hand because God decreed that cutting your hand of will be punished with a life without a hand.
    Or.
    Is the natural logical conclusion to cutting your hand off, that you then do not have a hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Son.... I just want you to know .... this hurts me more than it hurts you ... but, you are truly forgiven... BLAM! reload double barrel shotgun with more rocksalt...
    I think this perfectly exemplifies the difference between a consequence of actions, and judgment.
    A judge must take an action, in order for it to be called "judgment" where as a consequence is a natural result.

    So if God is taking an action, then you can call it judgment.. but if he is not, then it is simply consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Sinner : I believe in Jesus !
    Pastor: Son, you are forgiven!
    The example is a straw-man, and does not occur according to Christianity. Though I do appreciate the attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    So can either of you accept the burden of proof to show the difference between punishment and consequence of sin? Does it make any difference?
    I made an effort to answer this above. I look forward to the exchange on it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    @MT

    You wrote: "If I cut my hand off, do I lack a hand because God decreed that cutting your hand off will be punished with a life without a hand.
    Or.
    Is the natural logical conclusion to cutting your hand off, that you then do not have a hand?"


    Put that way, it sounds like a difference. Lets examine it to see if it is?

    Who made the decree that a man's hand does not usually grow back after being cut off? Who created the nature of the world to be like that? Only the Almighty can say that a man's hand will not grow and a lizard's tail will regenerate. Does it matter if the decree was issued by God before men were born, or if it was decreed after the person chopped his hand off? What difference does it make?

    However, here we are applying your parable of the hand to sin. That makes it harder, I think. In your hand example, the person may or may not be sinning by chopping off his hand. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston)

    So cutting off a hand leads to consequences in the natural world. And we can entertain for sake of argument that the creator doesn't decree every incident upon man. (although I hold He does.) So maybe it isn't a form of judgment after all.

    But, if you tell me that it is a natural consequence of the creation, (this trait is hardwired into creation as part of the very plan under which the world functions) that a sinner will become naturally sick, or suffer other mishaps, then who decreed it so? If the creator decreed it from the beginning that sins cause death, then its a prejudgment on His part. So it is a punishment. God has pre-decreed punishment upon the sinner in this world by the world's created nature. Such a "consequence" is just another word for punishment. Is it not? If not, why not?

    Also, even if we did accept that the "consequences of sin" are automatic by nature (the soul reacts to sin by dying or getting sick) and therefore are not "punishments" (Although they could be as you pointed out, if God was directing them as an active judge, per case and after the fact.) we still must ask ourselves what possible difference it makes?

    Remember, we are asking if someone who believes in the simple meaning of Romans 8:1, ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.") would also expect that "consequences of sin" were cancelled as well as judgments of sin? If not, then what was accomplished? Is there any salvation for the sinner?

    To make the question plain:

    John Paganson is a pagan who rejects Jesus. He sins this afternoon. He is both subject to the judgment AND consequences of sin.

    Bob Christianson is a believing Christian ala Romans 8. He belongs to the church. This afternoon, he sins by the same sin John the pagan did.

    Bob is subject to the consequences of his sin, but not the judgment, right?

    If so, please show us how in practical terms, John's fate is different from the fate of Bob.

    3 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Rom. 13:3-5)

    I quoted this above in the thread. Does it not say that an earthly policeman is used as God's servant to bring "punishment" (not consequence) upon the wrongdoer. These hypothetical wrongdoers were the people Paul was preaching to in Romans (meaning believing Christians). Yet, he calls the "consequence" of sin meted out by the police in this world by the term "punishment".

    How do you explain this?
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 10th, 2017 at 05:34 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Who made the decree that a man's hand does not usually grow back after being cut off? Who created the nature of the world to be like that? Only the Almighty can say that a man's hand will not grow and a lizard's tail will regenerate. Does it matter if the decree was issued by God before men were born, or if it was decreed after the person chopped his hand off? What difference does it make?
    I would argue that judgment by it's nature is reactive, not preemptive. So if God decreed that your hand wouldn't grow back.. when everyone else naturally does, then that would be a "punishment". Again an agent ruling choice.
    Further, you do not know if hands not growing back is a judgment (IE a conscious choice to punish) or simply a design trait, that just so happens to be unhelpful. ... Like not having wings. Are we "punished" to not have wings? Is it the result of some "wrong" or "Sin"?
    Can't any design feature fall into this reasoning? IE you are punished to have only 5 toes? Instead of feet that morph into flippers whenever you wish to swim.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    But, if you tell me that it is a natural consequence of the creation, (this trait is hardwired into creation as part of the very plan under which the world functions) that a sinner will become naturally sick, or suffer other mishaps, then who decreed it so? If the creator decreed it from the beginning that sins cause death, then its a prejudgment on His part. So it is a punishment. God has pre-decreed punishment upon the sinner in this world by the world's created nature. Such a "consequence" is just another word for punishment. Is it not? If not, why not?
    Then "punishment" means nothing, for even if the hand had grown back, it would be by the same decree of God. So then that would be the "punishment"?
    Thus, EVERYTHING becomes a punishment, and the word loses any distinct meaning. Go to heaven.. "punishment" go to hell "punishment", get sick and die "punishment" live forever "punishment", be poor "punishment" be rich "punishment".
    It means nothing and there is no distinction from it and even it's opposite "reward". .. At least as you have used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Remember, we are asking if someone who believes in the simple meaning of Romans 8:1, ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.") would also expect that "consequences of sin" were cancelled as well as judgments of sin? If not, then what was accomplished? Is there any salvation for the sinner?
    Opperating under my position where punishment is distinct from natural effects.
    You are conflating "salvation" with "consequences of sin".

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    To make the question plain:

    John Paganson is a pagan who rejects Jesus. He sins this afternoon. He is both subject to the judgment AND consequences of sin.

    Bob Christianson is a believing Christian ala Romans 8. He belongs to the church. This afternoon, he sins by the same sin John the pagan did.

    Bob is subject to the consequences of his sin, but not the judgment, right?

    If so, please show us how in practical terms, John's fate is different from the fate of Bob.
    Lets be specific to the sin.
    Lets say they both got drunk so often so as to destroy their liver and thus die.
    Johns fate was different in that He was made righteous in the sight of God at the judgment. While pagan John, remains separated from God whom he rejected, and is thus rejected by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    I quoted this above in the thread. Does it not say that an earthly policeman is used as God's servant to bring "punishment" (not consequence) upon the wrongdoer. These hypothetical wrongdoers were the people Paul was preaching to in Romans (meaning believing Christians). Yet, he calls the "consequence" of sin meted out by the police in this world by the term "punishment".

    How do you explain this?
    Going to jail is not a "natural occurrence" and has an active agent. Which is what I went by earlier as the distinction.
    Judgment is thus.. judgment and punishment.
    And My point is on firm footing for consistency in the distinction being pointed out.


    --
    I would say this finally about natural consequences.
    We have two choices in our life. Live in accordance to God, or life in rebellion to him.
    As rebellion to God is by it's very nature a rejection of Life, and the source of all life and light within whom there is no shadow of turning, who gives good things and adds no evil to them. It is thus inherently and naturally the choice to follow death. God need not decree anything for this to be the case. It may even be that God has decreed a much lesser fate then outright death and thus shown exceeding mercy.. not "Judgment". After all why don't we drop dead from the slightest sin, or worse live forever separated from him? (Romans 3:25)


    ---
    Finally rabbi I think I have challenged your use of the meaning "punishment" so as to justify a request that you define it and explain how it is (or is not) distinct from all of creation and all opposite claims (see first section).
    Your position and objections along these lines seem inconsistent and unsustainable. Though that is to be debated.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Thanks,

    The inspiration was twofold.

    1) I wanted to spark a new discussion on ODN. This is just doing my part to increase quality discussion.

    2) When looking for a good debate, my Jewish Talmudic training teaches me that it is always better to investigate a system of belief for internal consistency rather than simply saying the other party is right or wrong about facts/beliefs in general. This makes sure we never debate pure opinion vs. opinion. After all, if you have any opinion, how can I surely say you are wrong? You are entitled to an opinion. But, if you contradict yourself, you lose because in essence you have no opinion.
    I appreciate this thought (underlined)! I too take a particular interest in worldviews and how they are justified by their adherents.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    For instance: Did Jesus really exist? is not as good a question as : "Turn the other cheek" vs. Jesus telling his disciples to acquire swords?

    Seeing if people can explain apparent internal contradiction within a belief system seems to always produce the best discussions.
    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period. The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70. There is no more Levitical priesthood (destroyed in the temple fire is the genealogies that trace the lineage, plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions). There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Hi Peter,

    Please feel free to debate anything with me. I am flattered by your challenge. I would suggest that you can debate the question of Jews being under the Mosaic Law after 70 CE. etc.

    I suggest you start a thread with a point of challenge; as this thread is devoted to a different subject.

    TY
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    It is my understanding that Christianity (New Testament doctrine?) says the following:

    1) All people are sinners.
    My understanding is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23), but the GIFT of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    2) All sinners are "damned" for eternity. They will be punished by being thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire.
    I believe that sinners who will not repent and turn to Jesus are separated from God for eternality (for God created us for the rest of eternity/everlasting life) because God is light and what do light and darkness have in common? As for the Lake of Fire of Revelation 19, 20, I believe Satan has already been judged, and the verses apply to a 1st-century audience of address.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    3) However... if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept him as lord and savior, you are forgiven all of your sins. The blood of Jesus fully atones for you.
    Yes, I do believe this. Did Jesus die for sinners who would trust in Him - yes He did! Was His sacrifice able to put us right with God - yes, it was! He lived a perfect life on behalf of those who would believe. Either His life, His blood, was a satisfactory atonement for sin, or you have to make amends for your sins. That means it requires your blood, your own life, for the wages (penalty) for sin is death - separation from God. Adam, in Eden, once he sinned, did not die physically for many years, yet God told Him that He would die the day that he sinned. Therefore, the death Adam died was a spiritual death that day (separation from a close intimate relationship with God). Physical death came later. We, likewise, are dead spiritually to God if we are not born again by the power of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the means God has given by which we must be saved!

    If Jesus lived the perfect life before God on account of those who believe then what is left for them to do to save themselves? Nothing but believe in His offering. The perfect sacrifice has been offered. A new covenant has been realized in His sacrifice. The NT contrasts the two covenants repeatedly, always looking forward to the full realization of the New Covenant at His Second Coming (A.D. 70 - Hebrews 8:13). In the Old Covenant, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year to offer atonement for the sins of the people. The people knew the atonement was accepted once the High Priest came out of the temple. They knew God had accepted the offering once they saw the High Priest. Likewise, Jesus ascended into the heavenly Holy Place (the one that Moses was instructed to make a pattern of ), and when He came out the people would know as surety that the sacrifice was accepted. I believe that happened in A.D. 70.

    Hebrews 9:23-28 (NASB)
    23*Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24*For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25*nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26*Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27*And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28*so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


    So, He offered Himself once for sin. That was all that was needed.

    Romans 8:1 (NASB)
    Deliverance from Bondage
    8*Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


    That is the message. The question is who will believe the message, for God does not lie.

    Here are the choices:

    John 3:17-18 (NASB)
    17*For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18*He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    He can be punished/disciplined, but not condemned. Did Jesus die for their sins, or do they need to die for their sins? Was His sacrifice sufficient or do you believe you need to do more? In the OT we see the animal dying on behalf of the peoples sins as the sacrifice that covered their sins until the perfect, once for all sacrifice was made. The animal sacrifice was never satisfactory because every time they sinned there had to be another, and another atonement made. Additionally, it was not satisfactory because it was a man who sinned and separated humanity from God. There needed to be another Man (a Second Adam) who did not disobey God, who also represented humanity, to restore the close fellowship and right relationship with God. That is the message of history. The Jewish people failed to live up to it, just as the Gentiles do. The Gospel, or Good News, beckons to people to be reconciled to God through the sacrifice of His Son. He (Jesus) has done everything we could not do. That is why Ephesians 2:8-10 says:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
    8*For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9*not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10*For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    So, it is not of yourself, not of what you can do (your works) that saves you. Salvation is a gift of God from 1st to last so that you cannot boast on what you did. When God saves you, He gives you a new spiritual nature that you may know God once again, just like Adam knew God before the Fall, and like many in the OT and NT have come to know Him by His grace and revelation to you.

    Matthew 1:21 (NASB)
    21*She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”


    He will save His people, not maybe or perhaps by will! Do you believe this with your whole heart? Can God lie; heaven forbid!

    When you read through the NT pay attention to who saves and who is being saved. Can you find any Scripture that suggests you save yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Is that the case in this world and the next world?
    If you have truly believed in Him, He has translated you into the kingdom of light, the heavenly kingdom, the spiritual realm of God's abode. The OT saints of old, like Abraham, were looking for this kingdom (per Hebrews 11:10; 13-14; 16) and Messiah who would deliver them (http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DLLD6GNX).

    That Deliverer came as prophesied by Daniel (Daniel 9:24), within the period of seventy sevens or 490 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If it is not, and Christians are still being punished for sin, then what was the use of the sacrifice of Jesus?
    Christian (true believers) are not condemned for their sins because those sins are met in Jesus' life and death. He died the death that we Christians deserve to die for our sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?
    He/she is disciplined as a child of God, just like you disciple your children when they do wrong (Hebrews 12:6-8).

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    When a person believes in Christ He is born again (John 3:5-8), spiritually regenerated (Titus 3:5), given a new life (Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 5:17), no longer hates Him/God (John 15:23) or is in rebellion to God (like the OT stiff-necked people). The believer has been adopted into the family of God. Although he/she (the believer) still sins while on earth (1 John 1:8-10) their judgment has been met in Christ (Romans 8:1-2, 32-34, 39; Romans 14:4; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 2:18; Hebrews 7:25).

    God is able to save those who rest in Jesus Christ. We are not able in and of ourselves to justify ourselves before God. That is why the message of hope is for all time. The OT looked forward to it; the NT looks back to it - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for atonement and justification!

    Christ's death and resurrection guarantee the believer will be as Jesus is in heaven where there is no death or disease or the curses of this world.

    Something else for you to consider; the OT in most of its pages, prefigures Christ in types and shadows. The Mosaic Covenant can be seen in a spiritual light through the New Covenant where it finds its fulfillment (Matthew 5:17-18). I could lay this out for you in more details if you want to dispute it. I can also show you how the prophets all point to Jesus Christ and no other if you wish to dispute this assertion.

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I would argue that judgment by it's nature is reactive, not preemptive. So if God decreed that your hand wouldn't grow back.. when everyone else naturally does, then that would be a "punishment". Again an agent ruling choice.
    Further, you do not know if hands not growing back is a judgment (IE a conscious choice to punish) or simply a design trait, that just so happens to be unhelpful. ... Like not having wings. Are we "punished" to not have wings? Is it the result of some "wrong" or "Sin"?
    Can't any design feature fall into this reasoning? IE you are punished to have only 5 toes? Instead of feet that morph into flippers whenever you wish to swim.
    If judgment is not pre-emptive, then are the decrees in Genesis 3 about death, working hard, and labor pains, not called punishment, since they were decreed as a pre-emptive against all future descendants of man? OR are they the natural effects of being distant from God? OR do you say they are punishments since they happen AFTER Adam sins?


    Then "punishment" means nothing, for even if the hand had grown back, it would be by the same decree of God. So then that would be the "punishment"?
    Thus, EVERYTHING becomes a punishment, and the word loses any distinct meaning. Go to heaven.. "punishment" go to hell "punishment", get sick and die "punishment" live forever "punishment", be poor "punishment" be rich "punishment".
    It means nothing and there is no distinction from it and even it's opposite "reward". .. At least as you have used it.
    They are all decrees. But I would say that only negative effects are punishment.


    Operating under my position where punishment is distinct from natural effects.
    You are conflating "salvation" with "consequences of sin".
    OK.


    Lets be specific to the sin.
    Lets say they both got drunk so often so as to destroy their liver and thus die.
    Johns fate was different in that He was made righteous in the sight of God at the judgment. While pagan John, remains separated from God whom he rejected, and is thus rejected by God.
    Well, what would happen if the sin was not drinking which lead to sickness and death. Lets say the sin was now rape. This falls under sexual immorality. According to you, what is the outcome for John and Bob? Would it be any different than the drinking case?


    Going to jail is not a "natural occurrence" and has an active agent. Which is what I went by earlier as the distinction.
    Judgment is thus.. judgment and punishment.
    And My point is on firm footing for consistency in the distinction being pointed out.
    Good. So do we agree that in Romans 13: 3-5, that the NT says even Christians who believe in Christ and whose sins are therefore forgiven in full, are being informed that God will punish them (through the agency of Earthly servants) for any wrong doing in this world?

    I would say this finally about natural consequences.
    We have two choices in our life. Live in accordance to God, or life in rebellion to him.
    As rebellion to God is by it's very nature a rejection of Life, and the source of all life and light within whom there is no shadow of turning, who gives good things and adds no evil to them. It is thus inherently and naturally the choice to follow death. God need not decree anything for this to be the case. It may even be that God has decreed a much lesser fate then outright death and thus shown exceeding mercy.. not "Judgment". After all why don't we drop dead from the slightest sin, or worse live forever separated from him? (Romans 3:25)
    OK. I understand this idea and will keep in mind that this is your understanding. It sounds good to me on many levels.

    Finally rabbi I think I have challenged your use of the meaning "punishment" so as to justify a request that you define it and explain how it is (or is not) distinct from all of creation and all opposite claims (see first section).
    Your position and objections along these lines seem inconsistent and unsustainable. Though that is to be debated.
    Punishment is retribution. It is either the just thing someone deserves (by God's truth) to set matters right due to their sin or misdeed; or a penalty for having done wrong. I agree it is an active decree in response to someone's actions or lack of actions in a negative way. (it can also have the meaning of something milder: cleansing of evil. But that is more esoteric.)

    Also, I would comment that as an outsider looking into the NT and having heard the opinion of many Christians until now, I do not yet see how the NT would hold that the blood of Jesus doesn't also remove the mere "consequences of sin" as well as punishment of sin. ??

    So to sum up what I know of your position so far:

    The NT promise of being forgiven from all sins if you accept Jesus, will not work just by faith, belief, and acceptance, without works or good deeds (proper lifestyle avoiding sin) being involved.

    However, if you do perform the minimum required in works + faith, then you cannot be punished for any sin in this world or the afterlife. If you do sin while in this fellowship, God does reserve the right to punish the wrongdoer regardless of their belief and works which forgives their sins. (for whatever reason God thinks that would be needed while the world is still "perfecting")

    You can still suffer from the effect of sin which is the natural negative reaction the soul experiences by sinning. This is not a punishment at all, but rather an obvious causation. This causation is only in this world while the people, and world are "perfecting". In the final afterlife, there won't even be the effect of sin, nor any punishment.

    Is that true?
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  21. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  22. #16
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    It is my understanding that Christianity (New Testament doctrine?) says the following:

    1) All people are sinners.
    My understanding is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23), but the GIFT of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    2) All sinners are "damned" for eternity. They will be punished by being thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire.
    I believe that sinners who will not repent and turn to Jesus are separated from God for eternality (for God created us for the rest of eternity/everlasting life) because God is light and what do light and darkness have in common? As for the Lake of Fire of Revelation 19, 20, I believe Satan has already been judged, and the verses apply to a 1st-century audience of address (If you fail to identify the relevant audience you butcher Scripture, for you miss God's meaning).

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    3) However... if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept him as lord and savior, you are forgiven all of your sins. The blood of Jesus fully atones for you.
    Yes, I do believe this. Did Jesus die for sinners who would trust in Him - yes He did! Was His sacrifice able to put us right with God - yes, it was! He lived a perfect life on behalf of those who would believe. Either His life, His blood, was a satisfactory atonement for sin, or you have to make amends for your sins. That means it requires your blood, your own life, for the wages (penalty) for sin is death - separation from God. Adam, in Eden, once he sinned, did not die physically for many years, yet God told Him that He would die the day that he sinned and ate the fruit. Therefore, the death Adam died was a spiritual death that day (separation from a close intimate relationship with God). Physical death came later. We, likewise, are dead spiritually to God if we are not born again by the power of God (by faith in Jesus Christ). Jesus is the means God has given by which we must be saved!

    If Jesus lived the perfect life before God on account of those who believe, then what is left for them to do to save themselves? Nothing but believe in His new covenant offering. The perfect sacrifice has been offered, ONCE. A new covenant has been realized in His sacrifice. The NT contrasts the two covenants repeatedly, always looking forward to the full realization of the New Covenant at His Second Coming (A.D. 70 - Hebrews 8:13). In the Old Covenant, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year to offer atonement for the sins of the people. The people knew the atonement was accepted once the High Priest came out of the temple. They knew God had accepted the offering once they saw the High Priest. Likewise, Jesus ascended into the heavenly Holy Place (the one that Moses was instructed to make a pattern of), and when He came out the people would know as surety that the sacrifice was accepted. I believe that happened in A.D. 70.

    Hebrews 9:23-28 (NASB)
    23*Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24*For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25*nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26*Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27*And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28*so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


    So, He offered Himself once for sin. That was all that was needed.

    Romans 8:1 (NASB)
    Deliverance from Bondage
    8*Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


    That is the message. The question is who will believe the message, for God does not lie.

    Here are the choices:

    John 3:17-18 (NASB)
    17*For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18*He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So, is it right to conclude that a true believing Christian, cannot be punished for sin?
    He can be punished/disciplined, but not condemned.

    Did Jesus die for their sins, or do they need to die for their sins? Was His sacrifice sufficient or do you believe you need to do more? In the OT we see the animal dying on behalf of the peoples sins as the sacrifice that covered their sins until the perfect, once for all sacrifice was made. The animal sacrifice was never satisfactory because every time they sinned there had to be another, and another atonement made. Additionally, it was not satisfactory because it was a man who sinned and separated humanity from God. There needed to be another Man (a Second Adam) who did not disobey God, who also represented humanity, to restore the close fellowship and right relationship with God. That is the message of history. The Jewish people failed to live up to it, just as the Gentiles do. The Gospel, or Good News, beckons to people to be reconciled to God through the sacrifice of His Son. He (Jesus) has done everything we could not do. That is why Ephesians 2:8-10 says:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
    8*For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9*not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10*For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    So, it is not of yourself, not of what you can do (your works) that saves you. Salvation is a gift of God from 1st to last so that you cannot boast on what you did. When God saves you, He gives you a new spiritual nature that you may know God once again, just like Adam knew God before the Fall, and like many in the OT and NT have come to know Him by His grace and revelation to them, and through their testimony made known to you.

    Matthew 1:21 (NASB)
    21*She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”


    He will save His people; not maybe or perhaps by will! Those who trust in Jesus believe this with their whole heart? They rely on His atoning sacrifice, not their own. Can God lie; heaven forbid! Therefore, we can trust Him. There is no higher authority!

    When you read through the NT pay attention to who saves and who is being saved. Can you find any Scripture that suggests you save yourself? Could the OT people save themselves? No, they relied on the grace of God in their presentation of the animal sacrifice to meet that requirement (year after year after year). That covenant was a covenant of works. It relied on the works they did to meet God's requirements. The NT is a covenant of grace. God has done what is necessary in His ONE and ONLY Son (Isaiah 9:6-7; Isaiah 53). Every other world religion looks at what the believer has to do (works or merit based by the believer). The NT looks upon the merit of another to achieve what we cannot do by our own merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Is that the case in this world and the next world?
    If you have truly believed in Him, He has translated you into the kingdom of light, the heavenly kingdom, the spiritual realm of God's abode. The OT saints of old, like Abraham, were looking for this kingdom (per Hebrews 11:10; 13-14; 16) and the Messiah who would deliver them (http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DLLD6GNX).

    That Deliverer came as prophesied by Daniel (Daniel 9:24), within the period of seventy sevens or 490 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If it is not, and Christians are still being punished for sin, then what was the use of the sacrifice of Jesus?
    Christian (true believers) are not condemned for their sins because those sins are met in Jesus' life and death. He died the death that we Christians deserve to die for our sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are not punished once they believe and accept according to #3 above, then how do we account for any mention in Scripture about a believing Christian being punished for sin?
    He/she is disciplined as a child of God, just like you disciple your children when they do wrong (Hebrews 12:6-8).

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you will say that Christians are still punished in this world (this lifetime) for sin, but are immune once they die and reach heaven, then a) Please prove that from Scripture. b) Why wouldn't the death of Christ atone for mumps if it can atone for eternal fire? c) What need could there be to punish a sinner who is eternally cleansed in the first place?
    When a person believes in Christ He is born again (John 3:5-8), spiritually regenerated (Titus 3:5), given a new life (Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 5:17), no longer hates Him/God (John 15:23) or is in rebellion to God (like the OT stiff-necked people). The believer has been adopted into the family of God, just like God adopted Israel and made her His own people. Although he/she (the believer) still sins while on earth (1 John 1:8-10) their judgment has been met in Christ (Romans 8:1-2, 32-34, 39; Romans 14:4; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 2:18; Hebrews 7:25).

    God is able to save those who rest in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile. We are not able in and of ourselves to justify ourselves before God. That is why the OT Jews needed a sacrifice as a covering that points to Yeshua/Mashiach. That is why the message of hope is for all time and all peoples who will believe. The OT looked forward to it; the NT looks back to it - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for atonement and justification!

    Christ's death and resurrection guarantee the believer will be as Jesus is in heaven where there is no death or disease or the curses of this world.

    Something else for you to consider; the OT in most of its pages, prefigures Christ in types and shadows. The Mosaic Covenant can be seen in a spiritual light through the New Covenant where it finds its fulfillment (Matthew 5:17-18). I could lay this out for you in more details if you want to dispute it. I can also show you how the prophets all point to Jesus Christ and no other if you wish to dispute this assertion.

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Were Annanias and Sapphira (Acts 5) both killed as an act of discipline like a parent corrects a child?

    How can that be? What possibility of correction and discipline is there if the person drops dead?

    Maybe Annanias and his wife were simply punished for their sins?

    If you have been following the others, do you disagree with Mind Trap when he says that faith alone cannot bring salvation but it must also be coupled with works? Do you agree with him when he says that a believing Christian who sins may suffer the natural negative effect of sin like becoming sick or dying; or do you believe that belief in the blood of Jesus protects the believer anyway even if he sinned again?

    Do you agree with Freund who said that there are still believing Christians who can still be punished or suffer the consequences of sin in this world or the afterlife because they are not yet true disciples of Christ, despite the fact that they believe and accept Jesus?

    I hope I presented Freund and MT correctly.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  24. #18
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So to summarize until now:

    1) Annanias and Saphira were punished for lying to the church, and withholding charity that was vowed. They, being liars, are not only given death as punishment in this world, but are given the second death in the afterlife via the lake of eternal fire.

    2) Second Corinthians has a general statement that "all" must go through judgment before Christ and receive their due for any evil done while they were in the body on Earth.

    3) If you do not forgive anyone who sinned against you, then you will not be forgiven, regardless of your belief in Christ.

    4) Sexual immorality and evil desire (even filthy jokes) as well as other sins listed above, from murder to being "cowardly" will bring wrath and condemnation upon Christians.

    5) Prison sentences and traffic tickets are all heavenly punishments that are meted out even to Christian sinners. Belief in the atoning death at Calvary, is not a "get out of jail free" card in this world.

    6) Punishments for original sin have not been atoned for by Jesus.
    I would like to address your issues when time permits. I will sum up what my argument will condsist of in one statement; Does the NT teach that 1) a believer saves themself, 2) that the NT believer works hand in hand in saving themselves, or 3) that SALVATION is a gift of God, not through works but through Jesus who does everything necessary for salvation and 4) the works come after salvation?

    NT Scripture (which incidently derives its validity from the OT and teachings of Jesus Christ) also teaches that some who profess Jesus do not show signs that God has regenarated them, they continue to live in darkness and misrepresent the essentials of the faith (preach a different Jesus (i.e., Matthew 7:21-23; Galatians 1:6-8).

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Please feel free to debate anything with me. I am flattered by your challenge. I would suggest that you can debate the question of Jews being under the Mosaic Law after 70 CE. etc.

    I suggest you start a thread with a point of challenge; as this thread is devoted to a different subject.

    TY
    Great, thank you!

    PS. I have never started a thread. I'll try but if I fail, I will let you start it. (^8

    I will copy and paste my post.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 AM ----------

    Success, please go here:

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...013#post556013

    Peter

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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbi
    If judgment is not pre-emptive, then are the decrees in Genesis 3 about death, working hard, and labor pains, not called punishment, since they were decreed as a pre-emptive against all future descendants of man? OR are they the natural effects of being distant from God? OR do you say they are punishments since they happen AFTER Adam sins?
    Excellent point.
    I'll answer with a question.
    A man murders his wife, and the judge gives him the death penalty.
    Did the Judge also rule a punishment on his children, who now grow up without a mother or a father? Or do his children simply live with the effect and natural consequences of both sin, and natural consiquences of a judgment against another?

    So my reponse is that it is a bit of both. Adam was probably being judged. However his children were just living with the side effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    They are all decrees. But I would say that only negative effects are punishment.
    Negative in what way? Because I'm pretty upset about not having wings.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Well, what would happen if the sin was not drinking which lead to sickness and death. Lets say the sin was now rape. This falls under sexual immorality. According to you, what is the outcome for John and Bob? Would it be any different than the drinking case?
    I would question if iether were a christian. Because such an act is inconsistent with any professoin of Belief in Christ, as it doesn't follow any of his teachings.
    1 john tells us that such a person does not know God and the love of God is not in him.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Good. So do we agree that in Romans 13: 3-5, that the NT says even Christians who believe in Christ and whose sins are therefore forgiven in full, are being informed that God will punish them (through the agency of Earthly servants) for any wrong doing in this world?
    Yes, the part where we are going to have issue is when such things inherently conflict with what it means to believe in Christ. See the above example about rape.
    One can not act contrary to Christs commands and also be a Christian. That is why the bible says there are no laws against being a Christian, because it is about doing good.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    OK. I understand this idea and will keep in mind that this is your understanding. It sounds good to me on many levels.
    Thanks. I appreciate the respectful exchange.

    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    Punishment is retribution. It is either the just thing someone deserves (by God's truth) to set matters right due to their sin or misdeed; or a penalty for having done wrong. I agree it is an active decree in response to someone's actions or lack of actions in a negative way. (it can also have the meaning of something milder: cleansing of evil. But that is more esoteric.)

    Also, I would comment that as an outsider looking into the NT and having heard the opinion of many Christians until now, I do not yet see how the NT would hold that the blood of Jesus doesn't also remove the mere "consequences of sin" as well as punishment of sin. ??
    All consiquences for sin are addressed.

    #1 and most important, the seperation from God that sin brings, relational in manner is currently addressed. Christians can have right fellowship with God through Jesus Christ.
    #2 All of Creation is being redemeed and will have it brought about on Christs return. His blood being necissary for this to occur.

    So, my question is this. Do you see the NT talking about effects that are still yet to be seen?
    Do you see some inherent problem with some effects having not taken place yet? .. why?


    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    However, if you do perform the minimum required in works + faith, then you cannot be punished for any sin in this world or the afterlife. If you do sin while in this fellowship, God does reserve the right to punish the wrongdoer regardless of their belief and works which forgives their sins. (for whatever reason God thinks that would be needed while the world is still "perfecting")
    Well for definition sake, the minimum required "works", is the kind of works that naturally and inherently flow from true faith. Works do not get you into heaven, or gain you salvation.. that is very clear in NT.
    Now, to the point about God reserving "punishment". What is it that you are thinking about? Because I do belive in a negative effect resulting from sin, namely that those actions will be burned away at the judgment leaving only the gold and silver of the good actions.
    .. not as though one still goes to hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABBI
    You can still suffer from the effect of sin which is the natural negative reaction the soul experiences by sinning. This is not a punishment at all, but rather an obvious causation. This causation is only in this world while the people, and world are "perfecting". In the final afterlife, there won't even be the effect of sin, nor any punishment.

    Is that true?
    I think this part is as good as I understand it.



    ps.. Rabbi, I appreciate your taking on this topic, and I have to say that My answer is not going to be fully consistent with a more "reformed" approach to the topic.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  26. #20
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    Re: Can a true Christian believer get punished for sin?

    Rabbi, I broke your post up into two parts because I did not want to overwhelm you with information.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Were Annanias and Sapphira (Acts 5) both killed as an act of discipline like a parent corrects a child?

    How can that be? What possibility of correction and discipline is there if the person drops dead?

    Maybe Annanias and his wife were simply punished for their sins?
    I'm not sure who this post is directed to, Rabbi Dak, but I think it is addressed to me, so I will answer.

    There are two possibilities here:
    1) Ananias and Sapphira were believers,
    2) Ananias and Sapphira only professed to believe.

    I favor the second view (Case # 2) for the following reasons:
    1) Their fruits did not reflect true belief. Jesus [Yeshua/Yehoshua] said, "You will know them by their fruits." 2) Yeshua also said to let the wheat grow with the weeds until the harvest, but in this case, God possibly used the example as a lesson of a false profession/bad fruit and the consequences of lying to the Holy Spirit in the sight of men.

    If you favor Case # 1, the NT also warned of a sin that led to death, which I do not believe is the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How could "a true believer" do that [blaspheme]? God is the Person who has created a new spirit in the believer that loves God. God, in the merits of Yeshua, can keep him/her from falling (Hebrews 7:25; Romans 14:4; Ephesians 3:20; 2 Timothy 1:12). Those verses show the One doing the action of enabling (God) and the one receiving the action (the believer).

    Notice, the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (which I believe is calling the Holy Spirit something other than who He is, possibly in regards to demons) is different from other sins and cannot be forgiven.

    Matthew 12:31-32
    And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


    SIDE NOTE from Matthew 12:32: The term "this age" and "the age to come" (above verse) is an interesting phrase. To what "age" did Yeshua come? He came to an OT age, an age of temple worship, temple sacrifices, and an Old Covenant economy. My claim, and I believe I can back it up with tons of Scripture, both OT Scripture (Torah and Tanach/Tanakh) and NT Scripture, is that "this age" ended in A.D. 70.

    1 John 5:16
    If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.


    True believers who sin, even though they sin (1 John 1:8), have every sin forgiven because God has granted that forgiveness in Yeshua. That is why they can't lose their salvation even though that can lose rewards for their service (Matthew 6:1-5; Matthew 10:42; Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24; Hebrews 10:35).

    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (NIV)
    13*their work will be shown for what it is because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14*If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15*If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.



    1) If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
    2) If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    Notice, the builder is still saved because he has trusted in the One who can save even though he suffers a loss of reward - it is burned up.
    The distinction is who is able to save (more in the next post).

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------

    Continued:

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    If you have been following the others, do you disagree with Mind Trap when he says that faith alone cannot bring salvation but it must also be coupled with works? Do you agree with him when he says that a believing Christian who sins may suffer the natural negative effect of sin like becoming sick or dying; or do you believe that belief in the blood of Jesus protects the believer anyway even if he sinned again?
    I do not agree on this point (Ephesians 2:8-10). Salvation comes first before the works. He saves us, gives us a new heart and disposition towards Him by our trust in Jesus, adopts us into His family, then comes the works of righteousness. If our salvation depended on both God's works and our works (synergistic) then Jesus'/Yeshua's offering was not sufficient to save us (His once and for all sacrifice).

    2 Timothy 1:9
    He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,


    The glory goes to God for saving us, not to ourselves for what we have done. Our merit, on its own, is not SUFFICIENT. There is nothing we can do, as is repeatedly shown through the OT sacrificial system. The people could never live up to their commitment to God they made, the if/then covenant. Thus there was a need for a better covenant, the New Covenant, the new sacrifice and offering, the more excellent tabernacle (the heavenly one), a better country (again, a heavenly one), a better High Priest.

    The OT sacrifices were needed continuously (Hebrews 10:1-5). The OT [Torah] animal sacrifice was just a provision (Hebrews 10:11) until the better sacrifice, the LAMB OF GOD was given.

    The Law [Torah] stipulated the people were required to provide a sacrifice for their sins, and once a year the High Priest for the sins of the people, the whole community (an animal without blemish).

    The Lamb of God [Yeshua] was the sacrifice without blemish God provided (His provision for Abraham also was a sacrifice God provided). John 3:16 and Isaiah 9:6-7 are two verses that convey the message that the Son is given to us by the Father. Also, the Son is the One member of the Trinity who volunteers to be the sacrifice.

    Hebrews 10:5*Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
    “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    ****but a body you prepared for me;
    6*
    with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    ****you were not pleased.
    7*
    Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    ****I have come to do your will, my God.’”
    8*First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9*Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10*And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    The animal sacrifice could never take away sin, just cover it until this better sacrifice was made and was always pointed to (Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:26-28; ).

    Titus 3:5
    he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

    Again, these verses show us it is not our WORKS that save/d us.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Do you agree with Freund who said that there are still believing Christians who can still be punished or suffer the consequences of sin in this world or the afterlife because they are not yet true disciples of Christ, despite the fact that they believe and accept Jesus?

    I hope I presented Freund and MT correctly.
    Regarding Freund, I may differ on one point. I certainly agree that some just profess faith but their works prove differently. I believe Matthew 6 (the Lord's Prayer) was a provision given until the perfect sacrifice was made (although there is still an application for believers today). The satisfaction of the sacrifice, presented to God in heaven, was confirmed with Yeshua Second Coming, His coming out of heaven in A.D. 70 to bring justice for those who were disobedience and reward for His faithful servants who were awaiting His return.

    The reason I say this regarding Matthew 6 is that I believe the kingdom of God/heaven was fully manifest in A.D. 70, ushering in the new age. The transition between the two ages (the two covenants) took place from A.D. 30 to A.D. 70 (1 Corinthians 7:31; Hebrews 8:13). The kingdom is a spiritual kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:46; 1 Peter 2:5; John 18:36; 1 Corinthians 1:28, etc.) and its members, while on earth in the flesh, are also members of God's household in heaven. We are adopted into His family through faith in Yeshua! The Christian believes their values do not come from below but from above (1 Corinthians 1:20), from God Himself.

    Peter

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