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  1. #1
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    Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Hi Rabbi Ty,

    This thread is for you.

    Can you answer my queries below:

    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period. The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant for the following reasons:

    1. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70.
    2. There is no more Levitical priesthood (i. genealogies containing lineages of the priesthood are destroyed in the temple fire ii. plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions).
    3. There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City.
    4. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter

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  3. #2
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Hi PGA, I just got back from the end of the Jewish holiday called Sukkot (Tabernacles?) . So I didn't have a chance to answer this.


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Hi Rabbi Ty,

    This thread is for you.

    Can you answer my queries below:

    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period.
    What do you mean by "the Messiah"? If you mean the final redeemer of Israel at the end of times etc. then I do not see that in this verse. Where did you get that translation or idea? Why?

    The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.
    OK, so?

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).
    Send which "Messiah"??

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant for the following reasons:

    1. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70.
    2. There is no more Levitical priesthood (i. genealogies containing lineages of the priesthood are destroyed in the temple fire ii. plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions).
    3. There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City.
    4. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter
    #1 I would say that we can certainly follow the "LAW" of the Torah at any time and place. True, it may be restricted or missing some opportunities, but we still follow the Law. But as far as specific animal sacrifice for sin is concerned, well, we never used to atone for most sins with animal sacrifices anyway.

    #2 Uh, there are many priests and Levites that preserved their lineage among the Jews until this day. I know some of them personally. Temple lineage books (if burnt) or dispersing people, does not mean that families suddenly forget who they are. Not that this has much to do with your point as far as I can see?

    #3 Yes there is no more Temple now. And therefore?

    #4 Why can't the Messiah come after 70 CE? God can bring the end times and redemption at any time He chooses.

    As far as the Christian claim that a Messiah has already come to fulfill requirements: The Christian Messiah did not fulfill the requirements that Scripture has for that job.

    The most important thing you state which I care to refute ..... "..after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant .."

    Such a statement seems totally without merit at all. Since when does a "covenant" become unenforceable or removed/changed just because one party to the deal breaks a rule?

    If you are right, then I can drive above the speed limit on the highway, and avoid speeding tickets!

    Officer: You were speeding
    Me: Yup!
    Officer: So you get a $200 ticket
    Me: No
    Officer: How do you figure that?
    Me: Since I broke the law and abrogated the traffic covenant... it no longer applies. I was already punished last week by another cop, so anything I do after that is "not under the law" at all .... have a nice day.
    Office: Ah I see.

    Furthermore, God states in many places in Scripture that His law is "forever" or "in all times and places". Psalms 119:160 expresses this in general " The beginning of Your word is true, and each of Your righteous judgments is eternal." It also says that God does not change or change His mind. Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should reconsider. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?" Malachi 3:6 "For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed."

    So why would His law change, even if people break it on occasion?

    Finally, what do you think Jesus meant when he is quoted in Matthew 5:17-19 ?


    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 14th, 2017 at 07:15 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  4. #3
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi PGA, I just got back from the end of the Jewish holiday called Sukkot (Tabernacles?) . So I didn't have a chance to answer this.
    Thanks for answering. I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    [1]What do you mean by "the Messiah"? [2] If you mean the final redeemer of Israel at the end of times etc. then I do not see that in this verse. [3]Where did you get that translation or idea? Why?
    [3] That would be the Prince from the verse, and the ESV (English Standard Version) is the standard default Bible used on this site.

    [1] I base the passage's fulfillment and the Prince being identified as Yeshua for a number of reasons:
    1. Thoughout the OT there is a theme of the Deliverer, the Redeemer of Israel coming to Israel.
    2. Throughout the OT there is a theme of judgment if Israel did not meet the Mosaic Covenant.
    3. The Deliverer would bring in peace.
    4. The Messiah would bring in David's kingdom.
    5. The NT links the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies and all yet unfulfilled OT prophecies to the Messiah.
    6. Daniel 2 links the Roman Empire as the fourth kingdom.
    7. Daniel 9:24 gives a specific timeline for these Old Covenant people. It includes "[1]to finish the transgression, [2]to put an end to sin, [3]and to atone for iniquity, [4]to bring in everlasting righteousness, [5]to seal both vision and prophet, [6]and to anoint a most holy place.
    8. There is a contrast between the physical realm and the spiritual realm that the NT brings out.

    Seventy sevens are decreed for both the people and the holy city.

    Many other reasons could be given.

    Please identify who you believe this Prince to be.


    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...is-israel.html
    http://titusinstitute.com/applyingot/jesusindepth.php

    Who else would qualify as the Anointed One?

    [2] What end of time? I see the reference to the end of the Old Covenant (Mosaic) economy. I can discuss this further if you like.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

    I have some chores to address. I will finish replying to your post later today, or soon when I get time to sit down and reflect.

  5. #4
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Who else would qualify as the Anointed One?
    Daniel 9:25-26 says:

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

    "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation."


    I believe that the first mention of anointed (anointed "king or prince") is referring to King Cyrus of Persia.

    Isaiah 45:1 and 13 "So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed." 13 "I aroused him with righteousness, and all his ways I will straighten out. He shall build My city and free My exiles, neither for a price nor for a bribe," said the Lord of Hosts."

    Once seven weeks was up since the "word" (Jeremiah's prophecy) went forth, Cyrus would restore Jerusalem to the Jews.

    Ezra 1: 1-4:

    "And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who is among you of all His people, may his God be with him, and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem. And whoever remains from all the places where he sojourns, the people of his place shall help him with silver and with gold and with possessions and with cattle, with the donation to the House of God, which is in Jerusalem.'


    Daniel was worried and praying in the beginning of Daniel 9 because he didn't see the current exile ending yet. The 70 years prophecied by Jeremiah were seemingly up already? So God reassured him by saying that Cyrus was coming to return the exiles. In fact, Darius the Mede soon died and Cyrus took over and issued the decree soon afterwards.

    The second mention of an anointed one in verse 9:26 is not the same man mentioned in 9:25. This is obvious because the first "anointed prince" would come after 7 weeks. Then the city would be rebuilt for 62 weeks. Then an "anointed one" would be cut off.

    So the second annointed one was living 434 years after the first anointed one. They are two different people.

    So this second anointed one was to be "cut off" and "no more" at the end of the second Temple period. This is probably referring to either Agrippa the last King of Israel, or the office of the High Priest.

    It cannot be Jesus, because Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in about 30 - 32 CE (according to Christians). The 2nd Temple was destroyed at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The date of the destruction is about 70 CE. So Jesus was "cut off" over "5 weeks" earlier than Daniel's "anointed one" gets cut off. You have the wrong guy.

    Much success with your chores. May your works (chores) produce the kind of fruits that show everyone that you are a good person.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  6. #5
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Daniel 9:25-26 says:

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

    "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation."


    I believe that the first mention of anointed (anointed "king or prince") is referring to King Cyrus of Persia.

    Isaiah 45:1 and 13 "So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed." 13 "I aroused him with righteousness, and all his ways I will straighten out. He shall build My city and free My exiles, neither for a price nor for a bribe," said the Lord of Hosts."

    Once seven weeks was up since the "word" (Jeremiah's prophecy) went forth, Cyrus would restore Jerusalem to the Jews.

    Ezra 1: 1-4:

    "And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who is among you of all His people, may his God be with him, and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem. And whoever remains from all the places where he sojourns, the people of his place shall help him with silver and with gold and with possessions and with cattle, with the donation to the House of God, which is in Jerusalem.'


    Daniel was worried and praying in the beginning of Daniel 9 because he didn't see the current exile ending yet. The 70 years prophecied by Jeremiah were seemingly up already? So God reassured him by saying that Cyrus was coming to return the exiles. In fact, Darius the Mede soon died and Cyrus took over and issued the decree soon afterwards.

    The second mention of an anointed one in verse 9:26 is not the same man mentioned in 9:25. This is obvious because the first "anointed prince" would come after 7 weeks. Then the city would be rebuilt for 62 weeks. Then an "anointed one" would be cut off.

    So the second annointed one was living 434 years after the first anointed one. They are two different people.

    So this second anointed one was to be "cut off" and "no more" at the end of the second Temple period. This is probably referring to either Agrippa the last King of Israel, or the office of the High Priest.

    It cannot be Jesus, because Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in about 30 - 32 CE (according to Christians). The 2nd Temple was destroyed at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The date of the destruction is about 70 CE. So Jesus was "cut off" over "5 weeks" earlier than Daniel's "anointed one" gets cut off. You have the wrong guy.

    Much success with your chores. May your works (chores) produce the kind of fruits that show everyone that you are a good person.
    You have given me much work! (^8

    It will take time to explain my reasoning, and I will answer your other post first.

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