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  1. #1
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    Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Hi Rabbi Ty,

    This thread is for you.

    Can you answer my queries below:

    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period. The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant for the following reasons:

    1. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70.
    2. There is no more Levitical priesthood (i. genealogies containing lineages of the priesthood are destroyed in the temple fire ii. plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions).
    3. There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City.
    4. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter

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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Hi PGA, I just got back from the end of the Jewish holiday called Sukkot (Tabernacles?) . So I didn't have a chance to answer this.


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Hi Rabbi Ty,

    This thread is for you.

    Can you answer my queries below:

    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period.
    What do you mean by "the Messiah"? If you mean the final redeemer of Israel at the end of times etc. then I do not see that in this verse. Where did you get that translation or idea? Why?

    The Old Covenant that God made with Israel is a conditional covenant (if/then) as stated in Deuteronomy 28 (as an example). If Israel were obedient, then God would shower them with blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14), but if Israel were disobedient, then God would bring all the curses spoken of from verse 15-61.
    OK, so?

    If you read Daniel 9:1-23 (expressly Daniel 9:4-5; Daniel 9:9-10; Daniel 9:11-12), you see the curses God brought against His people (via exile and destruction of the temple and city). You also see the extension of His grace to them (Daniel 9:16-18; 23). He would restore them to the land, rebuild the temple, send the Messiah and bring in everlasting righteousness (Daniel 9:24-27).
    Send which "Messiah"??

    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant for the following reasons:

    1. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70.
    2. There is no more Levitical priesthood (i. genealogies containing lineages of the priesthood are destroyed in the temple fire ii. plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions).
    3. There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City.
    4. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?

    Peter
    #1 I would say that we can certainly follow the "LAW" of the Torah at any time and place. True, it may be restricted or missing some opportunities, but we still follow the Law. But as far as specific animal sacrifice for sin is concerned, well, we never used to atone for most sins with animal sacrifices anyway.

    #2 Uh, there are many priests and Levites that preserved their lineage among the Jews until this day. I know some of them personally. Temple lineage books (if burnt) or dispersing people, does not mean that families suddenly forget who they are. Not that this has much to do with your point as far as I can see?

    #3 Yes there is no more Temple now. And therefore?

    #4 Why can't the Messiah come after 70 CE? God can bring the end times and redemption at any time He chooses.

    As far as the Christian claim that a Messiah has already come to fulfill requirements: The Christian Messiah did not fulfill the requirements that Scripture has for that job.

    The most important thing you state which I care to refute ..... "..after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant .."

    Such a statement seems totally without merit at all. Since when does a "covenant" become unenforceable or removed/changed just because one party to the deal breaks a rule?

    If you are right, then I can drive above the speed limit on the highway, and avoid speeding tickets!

    Officer: You were speeding
    Me: Yup!
    Officer: So you get a $200 ticket
    Me: No
    Officer: How do you figure that?
    Me: Since I broke the law and abrogated the traffic covenant... it no longer applies. I was already punished last week by another cop, so anything I do after that is "not under the law" at all .... have a nice day.
    Office: Ah I see.

    Furthermore, God states in many places in Scripture that His law is "forever" or "in all times and places". Psalms 119:160 expresses this in general " The beginning of Your word is true, and each of Your righteous judgments is eternal." It also says that God does not change or change His mind. Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should reconsider. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?" Malachi 3:6 "For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed."

    So why would His law change, even if people break it on occasion?

    Finally, what do you think Jesus meant when he is quoted in Matthew 5:17-19 ?


    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    Last edited by RabbiDak; October 14th, 2017 at 07:15 PM.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Hi PGA, I just got back from the end of the Jewish holiday called Sukkot (Tabernacles?) . So I didn't have a chance to answer this.
    Thanks for answering. I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The problem I see with Judaism is the OT gives Daniel's people seventy sevens (heptads) to repent (Daniel 9:24-27). It expressly predicts the Messiah within that period.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    [1]What do you mean by "the Messiah"? [2] If you mean the final redeemer of Israel at the end of times etc. then I do not see that in this verse. [3]Where did you get that translation or idea? Why?
    [3] That would be the Prince from the verse, and the ESV (English Standard Version) is the standard default Bible used on this site.

    [1] I base the passage's fulfillment and the Prince being identified as Yeshua for a number of reasons:
    1. Thoughout the OT there is a theme of the Deliverer, the Redeemer of Israel coming to Israel.
    2. Throughout the OT there is a theme of judgment if Israel did not meet the Mosaic Covenant.
    3. The Deliverer would bring in peace.
    4. The Messiah would bring in David's kingdom.
    5. The NT links the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies and all yet unfulfilled OT prophecies to the Messiah.
    6. Daniel 2 links the Roman Empire as the fourth kingdom.
    7. Daniel 9:24 gives a specific timeline for these Old Covenant people. It includes "[1]to finish the transgression, [2]to put an end to sin, [3]and to atone for iniquity, [4]to bring in everlasting righteousness, [5]to seal both vision and prophet, [6]and to anoint a most holy place.
    8. There is a contrast between the physical realm and the spiritual realm that the NT brings out.

    Seventy sevens are decreed for both the people and the holy city.

    Many other reasons could be given.

    Please identify who you believe this Prince to be.


    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...is-israel.html
    http://titusinstitute.com/applyingot/jesusindepth.php

    Who else would qualify as the Anointed One?

    [2] What end of time? I see the reference to the end of the Old Covenant (Mosaic) economy. I can discuss this further if you like.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

    I have some chores to address. I will finish replying to your post later today, or soon when I get time to sit down and reflect.

  4. #4
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Who else would qualify as the Anointed One?
    Daniel 9:25-26 says:

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

    "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation."


    I believe that the first mention of anointed (anointed "king or prince") is referring to King Cyrus of Persia.

    Isaiah 45:1 and 13 "So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed." 13 "I aroused him with righteousness, and all his ways I will straighten out. He shall build My city and free My exiles, neither for a price nor for a bribe," said the Lord of Hosts."

    Once seven weeks was up since the "word" (Jeremiah's prophecy) went forth, Cyrus would restore Jerusalem to the Jews.

    Ezra 1: 1-4:

    "And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who is among you of all His people, may his God be with him, and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem. And whoever remains from all the places where he sojourns, the people of his place shall help him with silver and with gold and with possessions and with cattle, with the donation to the House of God, which is in Jerusalem.'


    Daniel was worried and praying in the beginning of Daniel 9 because he didn't see the current exile ending yet. The 70 years prophecied by Jeremiah were seemingly up already? So God reassured him by saying that Cyrus was coming to return the exiles. In fact, Darius the Mede soon died and Cyrus took over and issued the decree soon afterwards.

    The second mention of an anointed one in verse 9:26 is not the same man mentioned in 9:25. This is obvious because the first "anointed prince" would come after 7 weeks. Then the city would be rebuilt for 62 weeks. Then an "anointed one" would be cut off.

    So the second annointed one was living 434 years after the first anointed one. They are two different people.

    So this second anointed one was to be "cut off" and "no more" at the end of the second Temple period. This is probably referring to either Agrippa the last King of Israel, or the office of the High Priest.

    It cannot be Jesus, because Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in about 30 - 32 CE (according to Christians). The 2nd Temple was destroyed at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The date of the destruction is about 70 CE. So Jesus was "cut off" over "5 weeks" earlier than Daniel's "anointed one" gets cut off. You have the wrong guy.

    Much success with your chores. May your works (chores) produce the kind of fruits that show everyone that you are a good person.
    An idealist is willing to suffer for what they believe in.

    A fanatic is willing to make others suffer for what they believe in.

  5. #5
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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Daniel 9:25-26 says:

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

    "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation."


    I believe that the first mention of anointed (anointed "king or prince") is referring to King Cyrus of Persia.

    Isaiah 45:1 and 13 "So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed." 13 "I aroused him with righteousness, and all his ways I will straighten out. He shall build My city and free My exiles, neither for a price nor for a bribe," said the Lord of Hosts."

    Once seven weeks was up since the "word" (Jeremiah's prophecy) went forth, Cyrus would restore Jerusalem to the Jews.

    Ezra 1: 1-4:

    "And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who is among you of all His people, may his God be with him, and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem. And whoever remains from all the places where he sojourns, the people of his place shall help him with silver and with gold and with possessions and with cattle, with the donation to the House of God, which is in Jerusalem.'


    Daniel was worried and praying in the beginning of Daniel 9 because he didn't see the current exile ending yet. The 70 years prophecied by Jeremiah were seemingly up already? So God reassured him by saying that Cyrus was coming to return the exiles. In fact, Darius the Mede soon died and Cyrus took over and issued the decree soon afterwards.

    The second mention of an anointed one in verse 9:26 is not the same man mentioned in 9:25. This is obvious because the first "anointed prince" would come after 7 weeks. Then the city would be rebuilt for 62 weeks. Then an "anointed one" would be cut off.

    So the second annointed one was living 434 years after the first anointed one. They are two different people.

    So this second anointed one was to be "cut off" and "no more" at the end of the second Temple period. This is probably referring to either Agrippa the last King of Israel, or the office of the High Priest.

    It cannot be Jesus, because Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in about 30 - 32 CE (according to Christians). The 2nd Temple was destroyed at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The date of the destruction is about 70 CE. So Jesus was "cut off" over "5 weeks" earlier than Daniel's "anointed one" gets cut off. You have the wrong guy.

    Much success with your chores. May your works (chores) produce the kind of fruits that show everyone that you are a good person.
    You have given me much work! (^8

    It will take time to explain my reasoning, and I will answer your other post first.

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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    Who else would qualify as the Anointed One?
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Daniel 9:25-26 says:

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

    "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation."

    I believe that the first mention of anointed (anointed "king or prince") is referring to King Cyrus of Persia.
    Thank you for your points!

    I'm wondering which translation you are using here. I scanned a lot and could not find this rendering of 'king.'

    Examples:

    Daniel 9:25 (NIV)
    25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

    Daniel 9:25 (KJV)
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Daniel 9:25 (ESV)
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    Daniel 9:25 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.

    Daniel 9:25 (YLT)
    25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

    Daniel 9:25 (NRSV)
    25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.

    Daniel 9:25 (NASB)
    25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

    Daniel 9:251599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to bring again the people, and to build Jerusalem, unto Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks, and the street shall be built again, and the wall even in a troublous time.


    ***

    For your information, Philip Mauro (among others) has written what I consider a very good book on the subject of the seventy weeks. It is online, and it is free:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...nty-weeks.html

    Kenneth Gentry and David Chilton also have good works on the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 that can be found online if you are interested in developing/researching the theme further. You can read them here:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...alem-fell.html

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...vengeance.html

    ***

    "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."


    'And' is a congunction. It joins the two thoughts - the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks.

    Okay, since you say there are two anointed ones spoken of, then please explain why the text conveys ONE with the word THE, a definite article? I believe 'The' is specific to one in these verses.

    Daniel 9:25-26 (NASB)
    25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

    Daniel 9:25-26 (NIV)
    25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.


    What Is the Definite Article? (grammar lesson)
    www.grammar-monster.com/glossary/definite_article.htm

    The is known as the definite article because it indicates something specific. In contrast to the definite article is the indefinite article (a or an), which indicates something unspecific. Of interest, the is the most commonly used word in English.

    Definition of THE
    1
    a —used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent is definite or has been previously specified by context or by circumstance - put the cat out
    b —used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent is a unique or a particular member of its class - the President - the Lord

    2
    a (1) —used as a function word with a noun modified by an adjective or by an attributive noun to limit the application of the modified noun to that specified by the adjective or by the attributive noun the right answer - Peter the Great (2) —used as a function word before an absolute adjective or an ordinal number - nothing but the best
    b (1) —used as a function word before a noun to limit its application to that specified by a succeeding element in the sentence - the poet Wordsworth - the days of our youth (2) —used as a function word after a person's name to indicate a characteristic trait or notorious activity specified by the succeeding noun - Jack the Ripper
    3
    a —used as a function word before a singular noun to indicate that the noun is to be understood generically - the dog is a domestic animal
    b —used as a function word before a singular substantivized adjective to indicate an abstract idea an essay on the sublime

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the

    ***

    King Cyrus was not cut off.

    I do not see the merit in your interpretation (even though King Cyrus was anointed by God to execute specific parts of the plan). King Cyrus was anointed to announce the start of the seventy weeks, but not for the completion, the Seventy sevens of weeks given for the fulfillment. We can know when the prophetic time clock starts.

    "know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

    The seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks is a period of sixty-nine weeks or 483 years. The seven and sixty-two weeks are included in the seventy weeks. After the Messiah is cut-off, the city and temple are once again destroyed.

    Until the Messiah is cut-off (killed), there are sixty-nine weeks, not one week, or sixty-two weeks.

    "26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing."

    Also, every one of the six specific items (i.e., to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place) must be complete by the seventieth week. The decree is for seventy weeks.

    Rabbi, can you say these six specific items were completed during the time of Cyrus?

    Can you say that the Old Covenant people saw everlasting righteousness with the completion of the seventy weeks, as prophesied?

    Do you believe the seventy weeks are complete?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Isaiah 45:1 and 13 "So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed." 13 "I aroused him with righteousness, and all his ways I will straighten out. He shall build My city and free My exiles, neither for a price nor for a bribe," said the Lord of Hosts."

    Once seven weeks was up since the "word" (Jeremiah's prophecy) went forth, Cyrus would restore Jerusalem to the Jews.

    Ezra 1: 1-4:

    "And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who is among you of all His people, may his God be with him, and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem. And whoever remains from all the places where he sojourns, the people of his place shall help him with silver and with gold and with possessions and with cattle, with the donation to the House of God, which is in Jerusalem.'
    I agree with these texts as to the issuing of the decree, but I do not agree that THE anointed one spoken of in Daniel 9:25-26 is the same (Cyrus). The period was the fulfillment of all righteousness (the bringing in of everlasting righteousness), the putting an end to sin. How was that accomplished by King Cyrus? The Jewish people continually sinned after Cyrus' death.

    The temple spoken of regarding the seventy weeks was not destroyed again by the end of Cyrus' reign and it did not exist during Jeremiah's exile. That destruction happened in A.D. 70.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Daniel was worried and praying in the beginning of Daniel 9 because he didn't see the current exile ending yet. The 70 years prophecied by Jeremiah were seemingly up already? So God reassured him by saying that Cyrus was coming to return the exiles. In fact, Darius the Mede soon died and Cyrus took over and issued the decree soon afterwards.
    True, the exile was almost over.

    Daniel 9:2 (NASB)
    2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    What was Daniel speaking of?

    Here is what Philip Mauro says:

    "Daniel had learned, through Jeremiah 25:11, and 29:10, that the period which God had set for the "desolations of Jerusalem" was just seventy years (Dan. 9:1).That period was then about to expire; for the decree, whereby the captivity was ended and the Jews were allowed (and even exhorted) to return to their land and city, was issued by, Cyrus within two years (Ezra 1:1). That this was the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy is certainly known, because it is recorded in Ezra 1:1, that the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus to issue that decree, for the express purpose that "the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled."

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...nty-weeks.html
    (Chapter 1, see 'Daniel the Prophet')

    So again, after this first exile is complete, Daniel is told of another 70 sevens of years God sets for His people starting with the issuing of Cyrus' decree to return to their land (in which to finish the transgression).

    The Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy is not about 'the current' 70 years of the 'Jeremiah' exile, but a future seventy sevens God sets for His people starting with the issuing of the decree by Cyrus to rebuild the city; after the exile spoken by Jeremiah was over.

    These OT people had to finish their transgression. Jesus charged them with filling up the measure of their sins, filling the cup of their wrath.

    Matthew 23:32 (NASB)
    Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.


    Paul reiterates Jesus' thoughts:

    1 Thessalonians 2:16
    hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


    The utmost measurement for their sins was about to take place (judgment) in which God would severe the Old Covenant agreement. He would divorce the Southern Kingdom, and take for Himself a new bride - the true Israel of God, the faithful remnant. That faithful remnant included the faithful NT believers into David's kingdom, a spiritual kingdom, not of this world.

    Daniel understands why they are in captivity:
    Daniel 9:11-12
    11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him. 12 Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.

    They were in captivity because they had transgressed the Law that they had agreed to follow (Exodus 24:3). The penalty/curses of the Law was being applied and was to be applied once more, at the end of the Old Covenant age. Then God would bring in everlasting righteousness, with the sacrifice the Messiah made (His being cut off after He had met all righteousness for His people and paid the penalty). Under their heaven and earth nothing had been done like what was done to Jerusalem, and once again a greater yet destruction was promised to these people (Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21).

    Daniel 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the Lord our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    The second mention of an anointed one in verse 9:26 is not the same man mentioned in 9:25. This is obvious because the first "anointed prince" would come after 7 weeks. Then the city would be rebuilt for 62 weeks. Then an "anointed one" would be cut off.

    So the second annointed one was living 434 years after the first anointed one. They are two different people.
    That is a possible interpretation, but it still leaves a lot to be desired, as mentioned above. "The" denotes singular - one, not "AN," more than one. That is just one of the complications of this interpretation of yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    So this second anointed one was to be "cut off" and "no more" at the end of the second Temple period. This is probably referring to either Agrippa the last King of Israel, or the office of the High Priest.
    Again, I believe it refers to the Messiah, the Deliverer appointed by God to bring in everlasting righteousness and put an end to sin by the sacrifice of Himself in fulfillment of everything the Law could not do!

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    It cannot be Jesus, because Jesus was "cut off" (crucified) in about 30 - 32 CE (according to Christians). The 2nd Temple was destroyed at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The date of the destruction is about 70 CE. So Jesus was "cut off" over "5 weeks" earlier than Daniel's "anointed one" gets cut off. You have the wrong guy.
    Your last point is interesting! I will expand on it below.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    Much success with your chores. May your works (chores) produce the kind of fruits that show everyone that you are a good person.
    Thank you! My summary.
    1) Daniel and his people were already in exile. The city and sanctuary were already destroyed, so they had to be once again rebuilt.

    2) I agree that Cyrus was the anointed one to issue the decree to rebuild the city, but verses 25 and 26 speaks of THE Anointed ONE (not two).

    3) Do you think that God brought in 'everlasting righteousness' when Cyrus issued the decree? If so, then why do we continue to see these OT people rebelling against God and the continuation of the threat of the Deuteronomy curses?

    Do you think the other six requirements of verse 24 are met with Cyrus, or in the period of seventy sevens? If so, how?

    24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

    4) "[T]he people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary" (vs. 26) is another destruction of the city and sanctuary after it was rebuilt. Therefore, the Prince spoken of here would have to be Titus. He brought the Roman legions against Jerusalem and laid siege to it. He was later made Emperor/king ('coming monarch' being that Titus had not yet received that title until after the destruction of Jerusalem - Roman emperor from 79 to 81).

    5) To anoint the most holy place. What place is this since the temple did not exist during the exile? That would be after the CURRENT 70 years of exile they were now under when there was again a temple.

    6) Yeshua does fit the timeframe of being cut off. I believe that the remaining 40 years left until A.D. 70 can be explained in this manner:

    a) God did not allow the generation of Moses' day to enter the Promised Land. The Exodus people, lead by Moses, were given the decree by God to take the land, and they disobeyed. Only Joshua and Caleb trusted God and saw the land. That generation was left in the wilderness to die off/perish because of their sins. The next generation, under Joshua (Yeshua), were taken into the Promised Land.

    b) The NT, in Hebrews 3-4, submits once again the offer to these OT people to enter that Land and receive that rest that was promised. It warns that generation (in which the author of Hebrews is living amongst) that the promise to enter the rest, is still present.

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    8
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the wilderness,
    9
    where your ancestors tested and tried me,
    though for forty years they saw what I did
    .
    10
    That is why I was angry with that generation;
    I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.’
    11
    So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.
    ’ ”

    15 As has just been said:
    Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion
    .”
    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
    “So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
    And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
    6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.”
    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

    c) Therefore, I believe God gave the OT people one generation in which to enter that rest. This scope of grace is seen throughout the NT.

    Yeshua warned His generation to repent and turn to Him. He urged them that judgment was coming upon this very age (Matthew 24:3) and the OT people He spoke to. The judgment did come to that generation. I can identify many of the plagues and curses of Deuteronomy 28 in the Olivet Discourse, especially John's account of it in Revelation (I will save that for another discussion).

    Here are the NT biblical references to 'this generation.'

    https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...egin=47&end=73

    d) I believe the 40 years of grace was the transition God gave between the two covenants. (Hebrews 8:13; 1 Corinthians 7:31; 2 Corinthians 3:1-15).

    Those previous three verses reify my claim of a transition taking place. I believe I can supply an abundant list to support my view as biblical further.

    Peter

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    Re: Are Jews Under the Mosaic Law After A.D. 70?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The problem is (and I hope you address it) that after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant for the following reasons:

    1. They can no longer worship God as stipulated. There are NO MORE animal sacrifices required BY LAW to atone for the sins of the people. These people CANNOT follow the Law after A.D. 70.
    2. There is no more Levitical priesthood (i. genealogies containing lineages of the priesthood are destroyed in the temple fire ii. plus the priesthood and people are dispersed by the Roman legions).
    3. There is no more temple. The Romans desecrate the Holy City.
    4. What is more, and this is most important, the promised Messiah prophesied to the people of the Mosaic Covenant is impossible to fulfill after A.D. 70.

    Christianity has an answer to your dilemma. The Messiah has come in the prescribed timeline to meet these requirements:

    "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place" within the "Seventy weeks....decreed for your people and your holy city."

    I ask you, who were Daniel's people? I claim they were the people of the Mosaic Covenant that Daniel focuses on in the first part of Daniel 9 (vs. 1-23). Care to dispute this claim?
    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak View Post
    #4 Why can't the Messiah come after 70 CE? God can bring the end times and redemption at any time He chooses.
    Why can't/didn't He come before A.D. 70?

    The question is when did/will God bring the end times and redemption?

    Did Daniel 9:26 predict the destruction of the city and temple yet again? Daniel was in exile after the city and temple had already been destroyed, deep in prayer, when he received the answer.

    It was to be built again, after his exile had ended. AND destroyed again. Destruction would be A.D. 70.

    Seventy sevens had been decreed for Daniel's people AND CITY. The city and temple were destroyed once again in A.D. 70. I don't know of another time besides these two in which the temple has been destroyed. Where is the temple today? There hasn't been one since A.D. 70. Are you saying the Daniel was predicting a temple and Messiah after A.D. 70, if so when and where?

    The passage speaks of the END coming "like a flood: War will continue until THE END, and desolations have been decreed."

    I can tie these thoughts regarding the END together to many others expressed in Scripture.

    What END is spoken of?

    Yeshua speaks of the end in the Gospels. Paul and the Apostles reference the end numerous times from Romans to Revelation.

    It was not the end of the Christian age for there is no end to that period (world without end). I contend it is the end of the OT era or age.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...egin=47&end=73

    Yeshua speaks of two ages, 'this age, and the age to come.' During what age did Yeshua live? Was it not the OT age, the age of temple worship and temple sacrifice?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...egin=47&end=73

    Notice Daniel 12:1-2, 7, 13

    Daniel 12:1-2 (NIV)
    [3]The End Times
    12*“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be [2] a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But [3]at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2*[3]Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt....
    The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When [1] the power of the holy people has been finally broken, [4]all these things will be completed.”...
    13*“As for you, go your way till [3]the end. You will rest, and then at [3]the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

    Some points:
    [1] The power of the holy people was their relationship with God, was it not?

    [2] Josephus makes a statement about the time of distress like no other, regarding the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, as does Jesus (Matthew 24:1-3; Matthew 24:21-22).

    These two, Yeshua and Josephus, understood THAT time in A.D. 70 to be the time of distress foretold by Daniel.

    Where do you place the 'distress like no other,' Rabbi?

    JOSEPHUS
    PREFACE, Section 1 (Entire)
    1. Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of ; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affair themselves, have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by heresay , and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those things that were then present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humour of flattery to the Romans, or of a hatred to the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes ecomiums, but nowhere the accurate truth of the facts, I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our own country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; I, Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work.]

    http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-jose...-fulfilled.htm

    The article goes on to describe other fulfillments of various OT prophecies as noted in Josephus' descriptions during the siege of Jerusalem.

    [3] The time of the end was when the resurrection of the dead happened, the time of judgment.

    I claim this was in A.D. 70. I'll be interested in your take. Did you not mentioned something about the 'end of time'? Did you mean the end of the world? I want to get it clear as to your meaning.

    [4] "[A]ll these things will be completed." All what things? Where do you, Rabbi, believe this 'all' begins in the scope of the passages in Daniel 12? What is included, IOW's?

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    As far as the Christian claim that a Messiah has already come to fulfill requirements: The Christian Messiah did not fulfill the requirements that Scripture has for that job.
    How is that? What requirements do you mean?

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    The most important thing you state which I care to refute ..... "..after A.D. 70 these OT people are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant .."

    Such a statement seems totally without merit at all. Since when does a "covenant" become unenforceable or removed/changed just because one party to the deal breaks a rule?
    When the 'if/then' covenant is justified in being removed or changed is when the people fail to keep their end of the agreement.

    Psalm 81:8*
    Hear me, my people, and I will warn you
    ****if you would only listen to me, Israel!
    9*
    You shall have no foreign god among you;
    ****you shall not worship any god other than me.
    10*
    I am the Lord your God,
    ****who brought you up out of Egypt.
    Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.
    11*
    “But my people would not listen to me;
    ****Israel would not submit to me.

    12*
    So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
    ****to follow their own devices.
    13*
    “If my people would only listen to me,
    ****if Israel would only follow my ways,
    14*
    how quickly I would subdue their enemies
    ****and turn my hand against their foes!
    15*
    Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him,
    ****and their punishment would last forever.

    Jeremiah 15:15*Then the Lord said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go! 2*And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says:
    “‘Those destined for death, to death;
    those for the sword, to the sword;
    those for starvation, to starvation;
    those for captivity, to captivity.’
    3*“I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” declares the Lord, “the sword to kill and the dogs to drag away and the birds and the wild animals to devour and destroy. 4*I will make them abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh son of Hezekiah king of Judah did in Jerusalem.
    5*
    “Who will have pity on you, Jerusalem?
    ****Who will mourn for you?
    ****Who will stop to ask how you are?
    6*
    You have rejected me,” declares the Lord.
    ****“You keep on backsliding.
    So I will reach out and destroy you;
    ****I am tired of holding back.
    7*
    I will winnow them with a winnowing fork
    ****at the city gates of the land.
    I will bring bereavement and destruction on my people,
    ****for they have not changed their ways.
    8*
    I will make their widows more numerous
    ****than the sand of the sea.
    At midday I will bring a destroyer
    ****against the mothers of their young men;
    suddenly I will bring down on them
    ****anguish and terror.
    9*
    The mother of seven will grow faint
    ****and breathe her last.
    Her sun will set while it is still day;
    ****she will be disgraced and humiliated.
    I will put the survivors to the sword
    ****before their enemies,”
    declares the Lord
    .

    IN the desert, on Mount Sinai, the people sinned with their worship of a false god, a golden calf.

    Exodus 32:31*So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32*But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
    33*The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34*Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
    35*And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

    Those who disobeyed were blotted out of the book of life. Throughout the OT God continually had a grievance with these stiff-necked people. He kept warning them of judgment if they did not repent.

    That is the message of the NT.

    John the Baptist (the Elijah to come) spoke of God's winnowing fork (Matthew 3:12). Only the remnant was faithful to God. God made a provision for them in the NT. Hebrews 11 tells the reader that the faithful remnant was looking for a better country, a heavenly one, a better Mediator, a better covenant. In fact, the NT speaks of the Israel of God. True Israel is the OT faithful plus the NT faithful.

    More on this destruction when I tackle your comments on Matthew 5:17-18.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    If you are right, then I can drive above the speed limit on the highway, and avoid speeding tickets!

    Officer: You were speeding
    Me: Yup!
    Officer: So you get a $200 ticket
    Me: No
    Officer: How do you figure that?
    Me: Since I broke the law and abrogated the traffic covenant... it no longer applies. I was already punished last week by another cop, so anything I do after that is "not under the law" at all .... have a nice day.
    Office: Ah I see.
    God tells us to obey the laws of the land.

    If the law were met by every citizen, there would be no need for the law to be enforced. Everyone would do what is right. Everyone would love and respect one another. Laws are made to punish wrongful actions. They are made to protect others from injustice. Jesus lived within the complete confines of the Mosaic Law, as mentioned many times in the Gospels and Epistles (.i.e., 'to fulfill the Law'). He lived a completely righteous life before God, on behalf of those who would believe. Then He met the penalty for our wrong as a Lamb without spot or blemish - He paid the penalty of the Law on behalf of the believer. His offering was pleasing to God. The sin offerings of the people were not because sin was never taken out of the way with their animal offerings. All sin required death, separation from God, for God is holy and pure. Sin had to be met with a sacrifice that represented the sinner.

    So, I speed, break the law and cannot afford the penalty - the $200 fine. Someone volunteers to pay the penalty on my behalf, being merciful to me. Thus the penalty is taken care of for me if I accept the offer. This person tells me to please respect the law in the future, for my wrongful actions are costly.

    I could refuse His offering to pay the $200 and pay the penalty by going to jail since I cannot afford the fine, or I can graciously take His gift and atonement for my speeding ticket.

    If I keep breaking the law by speeding it shows that this persons grace, love, and mercy never transformed me via my gratitude for what he did. It does not change my life enough to respect what this person has done for me. Just because this person has paid the penalty, it does not give me an excuse to break the law whenever I please.

    Romans 6:15
    What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

    When God gives us grace to believe, via His Word/Spirit/Son, He provides the means to love Him and keep His commands, a regenerated spirit towards Him, a changed life that we can understand Him, who He is, what He has done, the difference it makes.

    If we keep sinning (habitually), once claiming this regeneration, it is a reason to believe that we have not been changed by His Spirit, working within us. It is reason to believe we never received the gift.

    Jesus does not just pay the penalty; He meets the full requirement of the law, something that no other human being is capable of doing. Thus, IN HIM, the Law is met perfectly.

    We, as NT believers have our identity 'in Christ.' Please read some of the Scriptures provided in the link.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...qs_version=NIV

    We are helplessly guilty in and of our behavior and wrongful actions done towards God. That animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of the Jewish people has been taken out of the way in A.D. 70, for a better sacrifice . The temple sacrifice offered by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement on behalf of the people was no more. It can no longer be met, as stipulated by the Law. That means one of two things; either you atone for your sins by your merit, or you rely on the One who did so on your behalf.

    That is the Good News! If your identity is in Him (Yeshua), then He has done everything we could not do. The history of humanity shows that humans are sinful by their very natures. We see all the wrong done every day by ourselves and others.

    As a Christian, if I do sin, I have an Advocate, a Mediator before the Father - Jesus! He has nailed the written requirements of the Law to the cross because His life has met the needs of the Law entirely, on behalf of the believer. He died the death God required for sin on behalf of the Christian. As I said before, and you understand this, the atonement was a sacrifice made on behalf of the sinful person (a sin offering), to maintain their relationship with God in good stead.

    You, as a Jew, have to continually meet the requirements of the Law, even though they have been utterly met and you no longer have the prescribed means to do so. Since, under the Law, sin was not satisfied by one sacrifice, each sin required a new sacrifice. The Christian has One (Person/sacrifice) who has meet the requirements of the Law. Thus, the Law is abrogated for us, taken out of the way. It is also annulled for you, the Jew, for you can't meet the prescribed method of meeting and atoning for sin as God has commanded in His Law. The Mosaic Law has therefore been taken out of the way also. It is now up to you to either meet every requirement on your own behalf, without this atonement or recognize the One who has done that for you. Since A.D. 70 the Jew has taken upon himself to modify the covenant and means of atonement.

    In the OT the soul that sinned without atonement shall surely die. BLOOD was needed for atonement.

    Leviticus 17:11
    For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’

    Your physical self (fleshly body) requires blood to keep you alive physically. The animal represents what should have been you. Since at the Fall God pronounced the death of the flesh (Genesis 3:19). If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life he would have lived forever (Genesis 3:22-24).

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    [1]Furthermore, God states in many places in Scripture that His law is "forever" or "in all times and places". Psalms 119:160 expresses this in general " The beginning of Your word is true, and each of Your righteous judgments is eternal." [2]It also says that God does not change or change His mind. Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should reconsider. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?" Malachi 3:6 "For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed."
    [1] True, and the requirements of the Law are forever met in Yeshua (Matthew 5:17). It is eternally kept in Yeshua on behalf of the believer.

    If the Israelites could meet the requirements of the Law, there would be no need for a Messiah, or for sacrifices.

    If a Man has paid the penalty for sin on behalf of the nation and they refuse to accept it, why would God include them in the book of life, the kingdom of God/kingdom of David/kingdom of heaven?

    [2] How did God change? The Mosaic covenant He made with Israel had conditions to it that Israel failed to fulfill. God (in His mercy) fulfilled every one of them in Messiah and brought in a new and better covenant so that anyone who trusted in its provisions would never be put to shame (Romans 9:33; Romans 10:11; 1 Corinthians 1:27; 1 Peter 2:6).

    God remedied the situation according to His justice. He fulfilled everything that humanity could not fulfill. He satisfied His justice by punishing and obliterating sin and death forever for the New Covenant believer. A man (Adam) sinned; a Man (Yeshua) paid the penalty of death for that sin.

    God requires sin be judged; justice is met. How do you, as a Jew, meet the requirements God specified in the OT, Torah, in this day and age?

    As an example, please identify how you meet the requirements of the Law required on the Day of Atonement. In that way, I can compare your statement to the provisions of the Law of Moses and question whether/how you have met or had the means of achieving those requirements.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    So why would His law change, even if people break it on occasion?
    It wasn't occasionally. The OT reveals the people were continually rebelling and chasing after false gods. God repeatedly warned them via the prophets He sent to them.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiDak
    Finally, what do you think Jesus meant when he is quoted in Matthew 5:17-19 ?


    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    I'm glad you asked! Throughout the NT we see phrases like these:

    Luke 24:44
    He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

    John 15:25
    But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

    Matthew 2:17; Matthew 2:23; Matthew 13:14; Matthew 13:35; Matthew 26:54; Matthew 26:56; Matthew 27:9; Luke 1:1; Luke 18:31; Luke 21:24; Luke 22:37; John 17:12; John 18:9; John 19:24; John 19:28; John 19:36; Acts 3:18; Acts 13:27; Acts 13:33; Acts 26:7.

    There is a constant type/antitype fulfillment in Scripture. Types and patterns are inferior to the real things they represent. They mirror something better. The Old Covenant is a typology of the New Covenant and a shadow of Jesus Christ. I could spend hours describing this typology to you from the OT that mirrors Yeshua and finds its fulfillment in Yeshua. For instance, I'll give you examples involving Moses:

    Moses is the deliverer (Acts 7:35; ) of Old Covenant Israel from sin and bondage in Egypt (Exodus 2:23; Exodus 6:5). Yeshua is the Deliverer of New Covenant Israel (Romans 11:26) from sin and bondage (Romans 7:14; Romans 8:1; Galatians 4:1-4).

    Moses was the mediator of the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:6). Moses gives the Law to OT Israel. Jesus adds to the Law with His statements about murder and adultery (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 38-39, 6:14-15; 7:28-29).

    Moses as a prophet speaks of another prophet (like him) who the Lord will raise up (Deuteronomy 18:17-19; Acts 3:22). So, I will continue to point out how Jesus is like him. The historical typology of the OT contains spiritual truths revealed in the NT.

    Moses is instructed to sacrifice a lamb and place its blood on the doorposts and lintel of the house so that the LORD will pass over that household instead of pronouncing judgment on that house (Exodus 12:7; Exodus 12:23, 12-13; ) - the LORD'S Passover supper. The feast of Passover is a lasting memorial in remembrance of what God has done.

    Jesus' sheds His blood over the cross beam (John 19:16-18; Acts 2:23) and upright of the cross (John 19:2). He is metaphorically called the Lamb of God, without spot or blemish, that takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), for all those who believe.
    The Lord's Supper is a lasting memorial or ordinance of what Yeshua has done.

    1. Moses leads the Exodus out of physical Egypt, the land of bondage.
    2. Moses spends 40 years in the desert.
    3. Moses and the people are tempted. The people continuously bicker and complain.
    4. Moses and the people are fed by manna from heaven.
    5. The people spend forty years in the wilderness but that generation does not enter because of their lack of faith.
    6. Moses brings the people to the Promised Land, which he sees from afar, but cannot enter because he struck the Rock.

    1. Jesus leads the 2nd Exodus out of the bondage of sin.
    2. Jesus spends 40 days in the desert.
    3. He is tempted, yet without sin.
    4. Jesus is the manna/bread from heaven. Who eats from Him (metaphorically) will always be fed.
    5. The warning is given to the generation that Yeshua comes to, that is to enter the rest God has promised, the new promised land, the heavenly country. The people are again in danger of not entering because of their lack of faith in God's word.
    6. Yeshua not only brings the people to the Promised Land, the heavenly country, but He takes them into the country, something Moses was unable to do because the Son can do what the servant of the LORD (Moses) could not do.

    There are numerous other types and shadows that I could include in this discussion, but I think you will see the greater spiritual truths God is showing us via the pages of the OT.

    I could also show a detailed typology of the tabernacle and priesthood, as well as the animal sacrifices and feast days in how they relate to and picture Yeshua.

    Now to the heart of Matthew 5:17-18.

    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    I think you would agree that the Law here mentioned is the Law of Moses, the law Moses gave to the people of the covenant. Is that correct?
    I think that you would agree that the prophets mentioned here are the prophets God sent to His covenant people - Israel. Is that correct?

    If these two questions are not properly surmised, please inform me as to who you believe is referred to in these verses of Matthew 5.

    Yeshua says He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it and that the Law would not pass away until everything written in it had been fulfilled.

    That would be every jot and tittle.
    It would be the blessings (Ephesians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:20) and curses spoken of in Deuteronomy 28:14 and onwards.
    It would be meeting every righteous measure of the Law.
    It would be the decreed seventy weeks mentioned by Daniel.
    It would be the destruction of the city and temple.
    It would be the bringing in of David's kingdom in which David's son (his lineage) would sit on David's throne.
    It would be the new covenant God would establish with Jacob and Israel and all peoples.
    It would be the passing of the 1st-century heaven and earth they knew.
    It would be the resurrection of the dead and victory over death, etc.

    When these things were complete, the new heavens and new earth would usher in, ending the Old Covenant Age, the OT economy, the age of temple worship and animal sacrifices, These things would have passed.

    So, have the heavens and earth passed away?

    How do you understand what the heavens and earth are?

    The heaven and earth they knew and lived under was a relationship with God centering around the temple, priesthood, animal sacrifices, and feast days. The center of their world was the city of Jerusalem, where the glory of God presided at one time.

    While the Mosaic system of worship stood, only the High Priest could enter the MHP (Most Holy Place). There was no access for anyone else. In Eden, both Adam and Eve had access to God.

    Now, for specifics on Matthew 5:17-18. According to Yeshua, the Law of Moses will not be taken out of the way until EVERY jot and tittle of the Law are met. The same is true of prophecy. So, according to the NT can you meet the requirements of the Law in every detail as listed in the Torah? If not, then Yeshua's prediction has already happened. The Law has been taken out of the way. God has provided a better covenant for all who will believe.

    Since every person has the Law written on their hearts, even those who are not under the Law show that they understand the Law and are guilty before God for their wrongful ways. Romans 2 makes this plain:

    9*There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10*but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11*For God does not show favoritism.


    12*All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13*For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14*(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15*They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16*This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    For the meaning of 'heaven and earth' I will leave you with this 3 part article that can be discussed further upon objection to their merits (if you are interested?), or we can discuss OT apocalyptic passages on the subject:

    http://www.bibleprophecy.com/the-pas...atthew-517-18/

    "Thus, contra Frost’s simplistic and naive claim that no one hearing Jesus would have thought that he had anything but the material creation in mind, scholarship understands that the Hebraic mind of the day would well have not even thought of Frost’s view of the end of material creation! Frost is guilty of imposing a Grecian and modern cosmology onto ancient Hebraic texts. This is poor hermeneutic to say the least. In fact, as Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, and the Jews believed: “Generations come and generations go, but the earth abides forever.”"

    http://www.bibleprophecy.com/the-pas...d-sam-frost-2/

    http://www.bibleprophecy.com/the-pas...o-sam-frost-3/

    "Let’s look now at the key OT prophecies that futurists claim predict the end of the physical cosmos.
    Psalms 102:25-28:
    “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.”
    This passage is quoted in Hebrews 1: and we are assured by futurists that it must refer to the end of time. But, it is pretty clear that those who appeal to Psalms to establish the idea of a future cosmic cataclysm have not really read that chapter. They are proof texting. Let me make a few observations.
    1. In verses 15-16, the Psalmist posits the fulfillment of his prophecy at the time of the redemption of Zion and the Day of the Lord:
    “So the nations shall fear the name of the Lord, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. For the Lord shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory. He shall regard the prayer of the destitute, And shall not despise their prayer.”
    This motif of the redemption of Zion is picked up in Hebrews 12:18f where the apostle says that Zion, is “heavenly” and it is “the church of the living God.” He also affirms that the coming Day of the Lord (for the redemption of Zion as foretold in Psalms) would be “in a very, very little while” and “will not delay” (10:37). Hebrews 12, picking up on chapter 1 and the prediction of the passing of heaven and earth, explains that it was the passing of the Old Covenant Zion- the Old Covenant creation, so that the everlasting kingdom would remain (v. 23-28).
    2. This time of the redemption of Zion – the time of the passing of “heaven and earth”- is when God would create a New People!: (v. 18f-22):
    “This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the Lord.
    “For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; From heaven the Lord viewed the earth, To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To release those appointed to death, To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.”
    Now, unless futurists want to say that at the so-called “end of time” God will create another New People – necessitating the removal / negation / destruction of the body of Christ – then Psalms cannot be applied to any so-called end of time. The problem is that the only people to perish at the Day of the Lord, so that the Lord could create a New People, was Old Covenant Israel! We shall establish that as we proceed.
    This alone is more than sufficient to show that the Psalm is not concerned about the end of time. It is about the salvation of Israel at the Day of the Lord. That would be a glorious day, but also a horrific day. The bottom line is that it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the end of material creation.
    3. Let me emphasize a critical point here: The promise of Psalms 102 is an Old Covenant promise made to Old Covenant Israel after the flesh. This logically means that it had to be fulfilled while Old Covenant Israel after the flesh existed (or exists) as God’s covenant people– while those covenant promises were still in effect.
    It is axiomatic and undeniable that if a Law or covenant has been abrogated / annulled/ abolished, that none of its promises or penalties are valid and applicable. A dead law, a dead covenant, is, after all D-E-A-D. So, here is what that means.
    The coming of the Lord of Psalms 102 is the coming of the Lord for the redemption of Zion, the salvation of Israel.
    Paul said the coming of the Lord for the redemption / salvation of Israel would be in fulfillment of His Covenant with her (Romans 11:25-27)– “this is my covenant with her, when I take away her sin.”
    Thus, God’s covenant with Israel would remain in effect until the coming of the Lord for the salvation of Israel."


    Peter
    Last edited by PGA2; October 22nd, 2017 at 09:23 AM.

 

 

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