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Thread: Gay/Transgender

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    Gay/Transgender

    Not Trying to offend and I still believe in equal rights but:


    The concept of Gay/Transgender being a mental disorder is entirely new to me so I've trying to prove this wrong, but I'm having trouble. Technically being Transgender is similar to a symptom of Dissociative Identity Disorder: alternate personalities with different genders. Also, being Gay is fundamentally opposed to heterosexual reproduction, I think that if Homosexuality were present and personally enforced in the start of our society, Natural Selection would have ruled them out. Honestly, I've come to think that Homosexuality is a luxury we've been able to afford due to population stability... if there were ten people left in the world Gay people would have to force themselves to reproduce for the advancement of the human race. Please, prove me wrong or right since I don't like having opinions that are illogical; and again, I haven't proved this wrong yet. Thank you.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    I suggest asking yourself: What exactly is a mental disorder?

    You can grab the DSM-5 Diagnostic and Statistics Manual - the handbook for the psychiatric profession and use their definition.
    Or you can reject that and make up your own.

    I think the thuth is that there is a lot of subjectivity in what divides mental disorders from normative thinking. The human emotional and mental experience is a great tangled continuum. Currently, the profession draws the line largely on the notion that conditions that cause you a lot of internal difficulty and unhappyness or make it very hard for you to function in society count as disorders. Jst being weird or mal-adjusted for any given reason doesn't count.

    So if being Gay or Transgender makes you miserable (and not just because others give you a hard time about it) then it could well be a disorder. If not, if you are copasetic about it, then it probably isn't.

    I think you are correct that there is a basis for cultural discrimination agaisnt these states of being that stems from early societies need for child rearing and family building. Modern society has a bit less need of that. Plenty of humans around, and we are a lot more autonomous and less family/tribal. Gay and Transgender people have plenty of useful things they can do in society and are in no danger of disrupting the population. Thus, those old social stigmas are no longer all that practical, and are instead more based in tradition or fear of that which people don't understand.

    Some have imagined that such people actually can aid in social survival by providing members of the population that are unburdened by child raising, thus freeing them up for other specilized roles. Others simply see it as a deviation from normative behavior with no intrinsic benefit. Some see it as a corrupting choice that threatens normative behavior. (I find that last claim perposterous.)
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Modern society has a bit less need of that. Plenty of humans around, and we are a lot more autonomous and less family/tribal. Gay and Transgender people have plenty of useful things they can do in society and are in no danger of disrupting the population.
    Thank you for your reply and I think your points are quite solid. I’m coming to believe that Gay and Transgender have become more and more accepted by society because of the abundance of the population.

    ---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I suggest asking yourself: What exactly is a mental disorder?

    You can grab the DSM-5 Diagnostic and Statistics Manual - the handbook for the psychiatric profession and use their definition.

    The DSM-5 says that “A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."


    Now while homosexuality and being transgender doesn’t fall into the severe areas of this definition, it has come under fire and can effect conversations or social interactions with more right leaning or anti-gay/anti-trans people (which make up a large portion of society.

    Possibly the early criticism in the Bible was brought on by social need, I.E. they needed the population so they figured by placing it in the religion they could regulate it. Just an idea.
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post

    Possibly the early criticism in the Bible was brought on by social need, I.E. they needed the population so they figured by placing it in the religion they could regulate it. Just an idea.
    Surely that criticism wasn't against what we think of as homosexuality in practice today...gay marriage, adoptions, families, but rather just the sexual acts between same gendered persons.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Surely that criticism wasn't against what we think of as homosexuality in practice today...gay marriage, adoptions, families, but rather just the sexual acts between same gendered persons.
    Yes, exactly. Simply the idea of it stopping procreation.


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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Yes, exactly. Simply the idea of it stopping procreation.


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    So as long as I procreated I could still have sex with a same gendered person, right?
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So as long as I procreated I could still have sex with a same gendered person, right?
    I don’t make the rules but I imagine that that could be a factor in the religious implementation.


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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Not Trying to offend and I still believe in equal rights but:


    The concept of Gay/Transgender being a mental disorder is entirely new to me so I've trying to prove this wrong, but I'm having trouble. Technically being Transgender is similar to a symptom of Dissociative Identity Disorder: alternate personalities with different genders. Also, being Gay is fundamentally opposed to heterosexual reproduction, I think that if Homosexuality were present and personally enforced in the start of our society, Natural Selection would have ruled them out. Honestly, I've come to think that Homosexuality is a luxury we've been able to afford due to population stability... if there were ten people left in the world Gay people would have to force themselves to reproduce for the advancement of the human race. Please, prove me wrong or right since I don't like having opinions that are illogical; and again, I haven't proved this wrong yet. Thank you.
    It depends on your ultimate authority in looking at the matter. Although I look at the issue from a biblical perspective and know it is wrong, I had to rethink how I approached the subject matter because a grandson has just stated he is gay. He has been in counseling (beating himself up) over how to handle the situation. He was recommended by the counselor to be open about the way he felt. Even though we love him, accept him for who he is (a human being who is valuable and a special being who is a member of our family), and are interested in his best interests, we know from God's Word that homosexuality in wrong. So now we just keep quite about our feelings by avoiding any talk on the subject matter when he is around. We continually pray and hope the best for him.

    Whether it is inherited or something learned is an issue that has baffled me for a long time now. I tend to favor the latter. When this grandson was young he used to play with dolls with his sister. So, I don't know whether feminine tastes are something engrained into the subconscious from an early age by the interests a person acquires when young, which can create gender confusion, or whether it is inherited.

    I also wonder what kind of effect the gatekeepers of society send to the rest of us. Take Holywood as a gatekeeper. A very good piece was presented on The Next Revolution, with Steve Hilton (October 22 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVAIwHokSN0 - see segment starting 28:25 -> 35:08). It show the hypocracy coming from Holywood in what it promotes and how it influences the standards for the culture, especially in how it promotes gun violence and sex of any kind. They know what makes them money. As far back as 1929 the Holywood agenda was promoting homosexuality. Could that be the reason why so many are trying the lifestyle?

    So, I'm not sure of how much of a mental issue this is as opposed to an inherent trait.

    Peter
    Last edited by PGA2; October 23rd, 2017 at 03:22 PM.

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    Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post

    Whether it is inherited or something learned is an issue that has baffled me for a long time now.
    Thank you for your response Peter and I appreciate your non-aggressive statements. It seems like most of the other forums favor flame wars over fairness (Alliteration!). Your statement that It might be inherited or it might be learned and you believe it is learned has, unfortunately, been proven wrong. According to Science Magazine’s website,

    “No ‘gay genes’ have even been identified. According to a newly released hypothesis, the explanation may not lie in DNA itself. Instead, as an embryo develops, sex-related genes are turned on and off in response to fluctuating levels of hormones in the womb, produced by both mother and child. This tug of war benefits the unborn child, keeping male or female development on a steady course even amid spikes in hormones. But if these so-called epigenetic changes persist once the child is born and has children of its own, some of those offspring may be homosexual, the study proposes.”

    Additionally, this study has been published in the Quarterly Review of Biology under the title “Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development.”

    BASICALLY:
    This phenomenon is proven to occur inside of the womb, just like some heart problems and high blood pressure (caused by stress in the womb, according to the March of Dimes).
    Last edited by AKAJoker03; October 23rd, 2017 at 06:42 PM.
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Thank you for your response Peter and I appreciate your non-aggressive statements. It seems like most of the other forums favor flame wars over fairness (Alliteration!)
    Indeed

    ---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    BASICALLY:
    This phenomenon is proven to occur inside of the womb, just like some heart problems and high blood pressure (caused by stress in the womb, according to the March of Dimes).
    Most, if not all, human behavior is a product of DNA, environmental factors, learned factors, and a whole host of influences. The "gay gene" may affect the probability of someone being gay in a given population, but in and of itself would not "make" someone gay.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    The concept of Gay/Transgender being a mental disorder is entirely new to me so I've trying to prove this wrong, but I'm having trouble. Technically being Transgender is similar to a symptom of Dissociative Identity Disorder: alternate personalities with different genders.
    Wrong. An alternate personality is a personality that is different than the primary one. A transgendered person does not have more than one personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Also, being Gay is fundamentally opposed to heterosexual reproduction, I think that if Homosexuality were present and personally enforced in the start of our society, Natural Selection would have ruled them out.
    But then homosexuality has not been ruled out by natural selection since it clearly exists in society as well as throughout the animal kingdom. The "what if everyone was gay and didn't reproduce" argument has no bearing on the reality of homosexuality within the species.

    By all evidence, homosexuality is a constant, naturally-occurring phenomena throughout all complex life-forms which is ample reason to hold that it is not something that natural selection rejects.



    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Honestly, I've come to think that Homosexuality is a luxury we've been able to afford due to population stability... if there were ten people left in the world Gay people would have to force themselves to reproduce for the advancement of the human race. Please, prove me wrong or right since I don't like having opinions that are illogical; and again, I haven't proved this wrong yet. Thank you.
    I would think that gay people would choose to reproduce if there world's population was so low that everyone had to add to the gene pool for the sake of humanity. But after mating with a female for the good of all, the gay man would still be gay and would still likely have a male spouse. So this doesn't really mean anything.

    What you are failing to show is that there is anything fundamentally wrong with being gay or transgendered.

    ---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Now while homosexuality and being transgender doesn’t fall into the severe areas of this definition, it has come under fire and can effect conversations or social interactions with more right leaning or anti-gay/anti-trans people (which make up a large portion of society.
    So the conflict is between the experts on psychological disorder (those who determine what a psychological disorder is) and those who tend to have an anti-gay bias. I would trust the experts instead of those who are biased against gays.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Indeed

    ---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------



    Most, if not all, human behavior is a product of DNA, environmental factors, learned factors, and a whole host of influences. The "gay gene" may affect the probability of someone being gay in a given population, but in and of itself would not "make" someone gay.
    I’m sorry, I mis-copied the quote. it was supposed to say that it’s not a gene, it’s the product of hormonal imbalance in the womb.

    ---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    What you are failing to show is that there is anything fundamentally wrong with being gay or transgendered.[COLOR="Silver"]

    [S.
    that’s the thing Mican, I’m not trying to prove that there are problems with it. I actually fully support gay and trans rights and I think that there are no problems with them even in the least bit. I’m just saying that “I heard some people saying that being Transgender or Gay is a mental disorder. Prove this wrong or right.”
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post

    I also wonder what kind of effect the gatekeepers of society send to the rest of us. Take Holywood as a gatekeeper. A very good piece was presented on The Next Revolution, with Steve Hilton (October 22 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVAIwHokSN0 - see segment starting 28:25 -> 35:08). It show the hypocracy coming from Holywood in what it promotes and how it influences the standards for the culture, especially in how it promotes gun violence and sex of any kind. They know what makes them money. As far back as 1929 the Holywood agenda was promoting homosexuality. Could that be the reason why so many are trying the lifestyle?
    Playing with dolls seems too oversimplified. Maybe you should talk to him. I can tell you that if what you think about homosexuality revolves around "feminine" behaviors that you are truly just seeing the tip of the iceberg (the real tippy-top of an extremely huge iceberg). You'd be surprised (I certainly was) of the men who engaged in homosexual behavior but would never consider themselves gay. I, myself, describe myself as DL masculine, non-scene and about 75/25% (more attracted to men than women).

    But since homosexuality was so prevalent - enough to be mentioned in the Bible, in written works and pieces of art - since way back it can't possibly be coming from Hollywood, can it? Could it be the other way around? That this piece of the human condition is looking for an outlet in an otherwise uptight society?

    ---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    I’m sorry, I mis-copied the quote. it was supposed to say that it’s not a gene, it’s the product of hormonal imbalance in the womb.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Right, I've heard this and it seems plausible enough, even logical. Supposedly, (what I heard) was that the best predictor of whether a boy was going to be gay was the number of older brothers he had. Makes sense to me in that I have a straight older brother. Something changes in a woman's body when she conceives a boy that effects all subsequent boys. Makes sense if you don't want that many breeders around or related boys competing for the same women. I'm not sure where any of that ever went but sounds better than a magic dude up in the clouds made us that way to test us.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    that’s the thing Mican, I’m not trying to prove that there are problems with it. I actually fully support gay and trans rights and I think that there are no problems with them even in the least bit.
    You presented an argument saying that transgenderism is akin to a psychological disorder. I'm saying that argument is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    I’m just saying that “I heard some people saying that being Transgender or Gay is a mental disorder. Prove this wrong or right.”
    The default position for any attribute is that it's not a disorder. Before one can say that something is a disorder, they have to show that it fits the definition of the disorder. So until someone can show that these things are disorders, one cannot reasonably hold that it is.

    So the argument that these are disorders is proven wrong.

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    Gay/Transgender

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    ---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You presented an argument saying that transgenderism is akin to a psychological disorder. I'm saying that argument is false.



    The default position for any attribute is that it's not a disorder. Before one can say that something is a disorder, they have to show that it fits the definition of the disorder. So until someone can show that these things are disorders, one cannot reasonably hold that it is.

    So the argument that these are disorders is proven wrong.

    They are not proven as disorders. I am asking for arguments proving this or no.
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    They are not proven as disorders. I am asking for arguments proving this or no.
    If something does not fit the definition of a "disorder", then it's not a disorder. Being gay or transgendered does not fit the definition of having a disorder and therefore they are not disorders.

    So I have proven that they are not disorders.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If something does not fit the definition of a "disorder", then it's not a disorder. Being gay or transgendered does not fit the definition of having a disorder and therefore they are not disorders.

    So I have proven that they are not disorders.
    When did you actually prove that it wasn’t though?
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    When did you actually prove that it wasn’t though?
    The argument I just gave proves it. But if you want me to provide a source to back it up:

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The argument I just gave proves it. But if you want me to provide a source to back it up:

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
    I already used that quote from the DSM-5 and provided reasoning for another part of the quote (the full definition of “Mental Disorder”) in my 2nd or 3rd post.

    ---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The argument I just gave proves it. But if you want me to provide a source to back it up:

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
    My second post, part two, paragraph 2 is a brief rebuttal of a part of this claim (it’s not the strgonest, I have other parts.
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    My second post, part two, paragraph 2 is a brief rebuttal of a part of this claim (it’s not the strgonest, I have other parts.
    I didn’t see anything that would be an effective rebuttal. Perhaps I missed it. If you have a rebuttal, please stated directly.

    If you are referring to conflict with those who don’t like gays, that is not a symptom of a disorder. We certainly wouldn’t consider being black a disorder just because there are racists out there.

 

 
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