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Thread: Gay/Transgender

  1. #21
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didnít see anything that would be an effective rebuttal. Perhaps I missed it. If you have a rebuttal, please stated directly.

    If you are referring to conflict with those who donít like gays, that is not a symptom of a disorder. We certainly wouldnít consider being black a disorder just because there are racists out there.
    I suppose that part was kind of a weak statement. I was just kind of trying to write down what came to mind, that was a poor point. I think I was talking about the part where it said it made social interaction difficult.
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  2. #22
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    I think I was talking about the part where it said it made social interaction difficult.
    But it doesn't hamper one's ability to socialize in general - as in it limits their ability to communicate and get to know people. The difficulty is just situational - communication with people who don't like gays and in that case, the problem is more with the homophobes than the gays. So if there was a dysfunction present when it comes to gays and homophobes communication, the problem is bigotry, not homosexuality. So in regards to communication problems, I would label "bigotry" as a mental disorder before I'd label homosexuality or being transgendered.

    But anyway, I think I've established that they are not mental disorders.

  3. #23
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it doesn't hamper one's ability to socialize in general - as in it limits their ability to communicate and get to know people. The difficulty is just situational - communication with people who don't like gays and in that case, the problem is more with the homophobes than the gays. So if there was a dysfunction present when it comes to gays and homophobes communication, the problem is bigotry, not homosexuality. So in regards to communication problems, I would label "bigotry" as a mental disorder before I'd label homosexuality or being transgendered.

    But anyway, I think I've established that they are not mental disorders.
    Pretty much. Any rebuttals?
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  4. #24
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The argument I just gave proves it. But if you want me to provide a source to back it up:

    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."

    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

    I rarely comment on this issue (except to say that, some same sex attraction is a positive attribute for a girlfriend IMHO) but just had a thought.

    The part of your response that says "many transgendered people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling" I find curious. It implicitly implies that there are many transgendered that do find it "distressing or disabling". Surely, many of those can be attributed to societal acceptance issues, but surely not all. Do these people have a mental disorder?

    Kinda like (in a real loose way) a person can drink alcohol everyday and not be an alcoholic unless it causes family/job/personal relationship problems?

    Just asking, I really don't have an opinion on the subject since I see the DSM endeavor as flawed in the first place.....

  5. #25
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Kinda like (in a real loose way) a person can drink alcohol everyday and not be an alcoholic unless it causes family/job/personal problems
    So is the question more towards the lines of ďHow does it affect you?Ē Someone can be schizophrenic and itís not really on these lines. Itís something in their brains.
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  6. #26
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    So is the question more towards the lines of “How does it affect you?” Someone can be schizophrenic and it’s not really on these lines. It’s something in their brains.
    I was just going by Mican's posted definition for my comment.

    The controversy about the latest DSM was unusual for the psychiatric community. They usually try to hang together so as to be more like a medical doctor community.

    Pretty much all humans are quite strange if you focus on an individual. Group behavior though is a different thing and can be predicted.

  7. #27
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I was just going by Mican's posted definition for my comment.

    The controversy about the latest DSM was unusual for the psychiatric community. They usually try to hang together so as to be more like a medical doctor community.

    Pretty much all humans are quite strange if you focus on an individual. Group behavior though is a different thing and can be predicted.
    Sorry belthazor, I thought you were responding generally. I get what youíre saying now. Should we use the DSM-IV for the unification in the community then?
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  8. #28
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Transgender do experience a lot of emotional distress, so as to drive them to suicide at disproportionate rates. Thus it is a mental disorder. If you want to split hairs and say only for those that commit suicide that is fine.
    It is still at a rate of about 40% - 50% , which is ridiculously high.
    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mpts/31626633/

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    Suicide attempts are alarmingly common among transgender individuals such as Lampe; 41% try to kill themselves at some point in their lives, compared with 4.6% of the general public. The numbers come from a study by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and the Williams Institute, which analyzed results from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey. Researchers are preparing to launch another version of the online survey on Wednesday.

    There are those that will suggest that it is due to bullying, but there is no science that shows bullying is able to raise suicide to that level. (IE some 35%)
    http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/07/...iscrimination/
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    There are two problems with this theory. The first is that it utterly ignores the most salient feature of transgender individuals: that they are mentally ill and need serious treatment. This is not a moral or ethical judgment. It is, rather, a fact. Individuals who believe they are a different sex than that of their biology are psychologically ill—self-evidently so—and one would quite reasonably expect a higher suicide rate from a portion of the population that suffers from so significant a mental illness (particularly a mental illness it is fashionable to indulge rather than treat).
    Basically, if transgender is not deserving of being called a mental disorder (be it recognized professionally or not), what standard could we possibly use that would make anything a disorder?
    I am sure there are perfectly happy muli personality serial killers. Still they are the definition of insane no?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #29
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by AKAJoker03 View Post
    Sorry belthazor, I thought you were responding generally. I get what you’re saying now. Should we use the DSM-IV for the unification in the community then?
    No apologies necessary. I am not convinced about DSM any of them. I dated a woman with a masters that showed me that book (she was a grade school counselor. She also charged thousands of $ on my credit cards, and after I turned it over to the police, she then electronically used my checking acc't.... not that any of that affects this conversation, just an aside). I read it enough to be skeptical. That "disorders or whatever" change between books is not inspiring confidence in my opinion.

  10. #30
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Transgender do experience a lot of emotional distress, so as to drive them to suicide at disproportionate rates. Thus it is a mental disorder.
    That is not valid criteria for determining when something is a mental disorder. Nor have you shown that the emotional distress is primary a natural effect of being transgendered as oppose to being significantly effected by external factors, such as how they are treated by the outside world.

    The article you linked was not a valid scientific study of transgenderism but basically an editorial from a conservative website.

    If we go to a scientific study we get:

    "Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following:
    — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care
    • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
    • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59%
    • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65%
    — At school (any level): 63-78%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement
    • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70
    — Experienced homelessness: 69%"


    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Basically, if transgender is not deserving of being called a mental disorder (be it recognized professionally or not), what standard could we possibly use that would make anything a disorder?
    We use the methodology that the professional psychiatric community currently use. Copied from Joker's post:

    The DSM-5 says that “A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

    You have not shown that by the criteria that the psychiatric community uses, transgenderism can be considered a mental disorder. Instead, you apparently made up your own criteria (based on suicide rates).

    A mental disorder has a negative effect on EVERYONE who suffers from it. If transgenderism is a mental disorder, that means that every single transgendered person, who would "suffer" from transgenderism if it were a disease, has some kind of problem ("clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior"). Obviously those who attempt suicide (successful or not) has a problem of some kind but then most transgendered people don't attempt suicide and therefore one cannot use a minority attempting suicide as the basis of saying that they ALL have a problem and therefore they all suffer from some disorder. If they don't all suffer from some disorder, then transgenderism cannot be considered a disorder.

    It's safe to say that it has not been shown that every transgendered person suffers from a clinically significant disturbance in their cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    The part of your response that says "many transgendered people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling" I find curious. It implicitly implies that there are many transgendered that do find it "distressing or disabling". Surely, many of those can be attributed to societal acceptance issues, but surely not all. Do these people have a mental disorder?
    Some transgendered people do suffer from mental disorders like body dysmorphia disorder and others do not suffer from it. A mental disorder is something that causes a problem with everyone who suffers from it. Since many transgendered people do not suffer from any such problems, transgenderism cannot be considered mental disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; October 26th, 2017 at 08:44 PM.

  11. #31
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    That is not valid criteria for determining when something is a mental disorder.
    Your right, in regards to how it is specifically worded.
    However it is an attempt (poor one) to reference this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."
    By all accounts a suicide rate that high, is in fact as strong of an expression of "signification distress or disability" as is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Nor have you shown that the emotional distress is primary a natural effect of being transgendered as oppose to being significantly effected by external factors, such as how they are treated by the outside world.
    That is a bit question begging. Why would we think it isn't? Especially as there is not link to outside factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The article you linked was not a valid scientific study of transgenderism but basically an editorial from a conservative website.
    USA today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If we go to a scientific study we get:

    "Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following:
    — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care
    • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
    • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59%
    • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65%
    — At school (any level): 63-78%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement
    • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70
    — Experienced homelessness: 69%"
    None of which is shown to be relevant to suicide rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    You have not shown that by the criteria that the psychiatric community uses, transgenderism can be considered a mental disorder. Instead, you apparently made up your own criteria (based on suicide rates).
    Sure it is, and it's self evidently so. It full fils the definition of cognitive failure as they all fail to recognize the obvious fact of their gender. They "think" they are a girl, when they are in fact a boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A mental disorder has a negative effect on EVERYONE who suffers from it. If transgenderism is a mental disorder, that means that every single transgendered person, who would "suffer" from transgenderism if it were a disease, has some kind of problem ("clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior"). Obviously those who attempt suicide (successful or not) has a problem of some kind but then most transgendered people don't attempt suicide and therefore one cannot use a minority attempting suicide as the basis of saying that they ALL have a problem and therefore they all suffer from some disorder. If they don't all suffer from some disorder, then transgenderism cannot be considered a disorder.
    Negative effect to who? Negative as understood by every individual at the time?
    As in, if they WANTED suicide, then it isn't "negative"... you know.. for them, as it is what made them "happy".


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Some transgendered people do suffer from mental disorders like body dysmorphia disorder and others do not suffer from it. A mental disorder is something that causes a problem with everyone who suffers from it. Since many transgendered people do not suffer from any such problems, transgenderism cannot be considered mental disorder.
    As I said, to at least those, it is a mental disorder. I don't buy this whole 100% negative rate in order to be a disorder.
    There are plenty of Bulimia people that are perfectly happy with their lives. There are plenty of alcoholics that are perfectly happy with their lifestyle.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    You have not shown that by the criteria that the psychiatric community uses, transgenderism can be considered a mental disorder. Instead, you apparently made up your own criteria (based on suicide rates).
    All the other arguments aside, yes I am willing to say this is my own made up criteria.
    However I think that you should consider it, because we should both agree that
    1) Suicide is not "normal", and not the result of "healthy" thinking or life styles. (IE any life style that would lead to 50% ish suicide rate should be commonly and easily identifiable as unhealthy).
    2) That external factors are not sufficient or even intuitively causative of it. (The biggest support of this is that those that are not recognized as such also have a supper high rate in the 30-40 range)
    3) Thus, It is the life style and thought processes of the "Trans gender" themselves that are unhealthy and not normal.

    The politics of psychology can say what they like, the end results are overwhelming. They are sick, and the last thing we should do is start chemically castrating confused and mentally unhealthy people at young ages.
    Which is what SOME that wish to treat it as a "normal" lifestyle are pushing, and doing.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  12. #32
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    By all accounts a suicide rate that high, is in fact as strong of an expression of "signification distress or disability" as is possible.
    Support or retract this assertion.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is a bit question begging. Why would we think it isn't? Especially as there is not link to outside factors.
    Support or retract that there is no link to outside factors.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    USA today?
    That was an editorial from The Federalists website.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    None of which is shown to be relevant to suicide rates.
    Support or retract that these are not relevant to suicide rates. And obviously an editorial from a conservative website is not a valid source of support. Editorials, AKA "opinion pieces", in general are not valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sure it is, and it's self evidently so. It full fils the definition of cognitive failure as they all fail to recognize the obvious fact of their gender. They "think" they are a girl, when they are in fact a boy.
    Define when someone is a "boy". If you mean when they have a penis, a transgendered female is fully aware that they have a penis and therefore do not fail to recognize that they are a "boy".

    If that's not what you mean, then please provide a proper definition of "boy".

    In fact, support or retract that female transgendered people fail to recognize that they are boys (which will require you to define what you mean by "boy" which is the primary reason for the challenge).


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Negative effect to who? Negative as understood by every individual at the time?
    As in, if they WANTED suicide, then it isn't "negative"... you know.. for them, as it is what made them "happy".
    Being suicidal is indeed negative. But you have not shown that every transgendered person is suicidal. If even one transgendered person is not suicidal and is indeed as happy and well-adjusted as anyone else then it cannot be said that that person has a disorder. So if even one transgendered person cannot be said to have a disorder, then transgenderism cannot be considered a disorder.

    Again, a disorder is someone that negatively effects EVERYONE who suffers from it. Anyone who is schizophrenic has a problem of some kind. The same goes for any other disorder or disease. So until you support that every single transgendered person has a disorder, you cannot say that transgenderism is a disorder.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As I said, to at least those, it is a mental disorder. I don't buy this whole 100% negative rate in order to be a disorder.
    There are plenty of Bulimia people that are perfectly happy with their lives. There are plenty of alcoholics that are perfectly happy with their lifestyle.
    A disorder does not preclude being happy despite having the disorder. Here is the definition of a disorder:

    The DSM-5 says that “A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

    If one does not suffer from what's described above, then they do not have a disorder. And to argue that all transgendered people have a disorder means that there is no exception - they ALL have some kind of significant disturbance...etc. No exceptions. If even ONE transgendered person does not have a disorder, then it cannot be said that all transgendered people have a disorder and there it cannot be argued that transgenderism itself is a disorder.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    All the other arguments aside, yes I am willing to say this is my own made up criteria.
    However I think that you should consider it, because we should both agree that
    1) Suicide is not "normal", and not the result of "healthy" thinking or life styles. (IE any life style that would lead to 50% ish suicide rate should be commonly and easily identifiable as unhealthy).
    But then most transgendered people don't attempt suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    2) That external factors are not sufficient or even intuitively causative of it. (The biggest support of this is that those that are not recognized as such also have a supper high rate in the 30-40 range)
    But that is not a valid criteria for determining that a whole group has a disorder. If even 50% attempt suicide that means that 50% do not attempt suicide. So where is the evidence that the other 50% have a disorder?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    All the other arguments aside, yes I am willing to say this is my own made up criteria.
    And therefore you are engaging in the appeal to self fallacy. Something isn't a disorder based on "because I say so".

    While you can forward the suicide rate as something significant, you CANNOT use that as a criteria for determining when a group has a disorder without supporting that with an external source of support.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The politics of psychology can say what they like, the end results are overwhelming.
    I'm only appealing to experts to get a valid definition of a disorder and then use logic to determine what is and is not a disorder so I'm not appealing to the experts. I'm using plain logic to show that unless you can show that you have not supported that transgenderism is a disease.

    And btw, I do acknowledge that psychological disorders are more prevalent amongst the transgendered and that likely is a factor in their higher rate of suicide (although external factors such as discrimination does contribute). Transgendered people do suffer from body dysmorphia at a greater rate than cisgendered people. So if you want to argue that transgendered people are more likely to have disorder, I won't disagree. But being more likely to have a disorder is not a disorder itself (as an example, a community being more disposed to diabetes or alcoholism does not mean the whole community has a disorder). Again, if there are transgendered people who do not suffer from what the experts have determined a disorder is, then a portion of the transgendered community have no disorder and therefore it cannot be said that the community as a whole suffers from a disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; October 27th, 2017 at 06:06 AM.

  13. #33
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support or retract this assertion.
    What, support he claim that suicide is a sign of mental issues?
    I'm afraid if you are not willing to accept that obvious fact, then we have no ground to even have this discussion.
    I also will not seek to support the fact that he sky is blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support or retract that there is no link to outside factors.
    I did, when I pointed to the high rate of those not readily identified.
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support or retract that these are not relevant to suicide rates.
    I think you have the burden to show that it is.
    I was writing in anticipation a response to a possible challenge.
    I pointed to the statistically high suicide rate of those who are not recognized as transgender.
    So my response to a possible challenge is supported. If you would like to actually raise the challenge, then you have the burden.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Define when someone is a "boy". If you mean when they have a penis, a transgendered female is fully aware that they have a penis and therefore do not fail to recognize that they are a "boy".

    If that's not what you mean, then please provide a proper definition of "boy".

    In fact, support or retract that female transgendered people fail to recognize that they are boys (which will require you to define what you mean by "boy" which is the primary reason for the challenge).
    Yes, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.
    The very definition of transgender is someone who fails to recognize that is what they are.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transgender
    "noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;"

    Ie what they think doesn't correspond to reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Being suicidal is indeed negative. But you have not shown that every transgendered person is suicidal. If even one transgendered person is not suicidal and is indeed as happy and well-adjusted as anyone else then it cannot be said that that person has a disorder. So if even one transgendered person cannot be said to have a disorder, then transgenderism cannot be considered a disorder.

    Again, a disorder is someone that negatively effects EVERYONE who suffers from it. Anyone who is schizophrenic has a problem of some kind. The same goes for any other disorder or disease. So until you support that every single transgendered person has a disorder, you cannot say that transgenderism is a disorder.
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    A disorder does not preclude being happy despite having the disorder. Here is the definition of a disorder:

    The DSM-5 says that “A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

    If one does not suffer from what's described above, then they do not have a disorder. And to argue that all transgendered people have a disorder means that there is no exception - they ALL have some kind of significant disturbance...etc. No exceptions. If even ONE transgendered person does not have a disorder, then it cannot be said that all transgendered people have a disorder and there it cannot be argued that transgenderism itself is a disorder.
    You have contradicted yourself.
    You said if they are "indeed as happy and well-adjusted as anyone else then it cannot be said that that person has a disorder."
    Then said
    "A disorder does not preclude being happy despite having the disorder."

    I can't respond to an internally inconsistent position.

    Further, for those 40% that are apparently not happy and not well adjusted so as to attempt suicide, they are suffering from mental disorders.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    But then most transgendered people don't attempt suicide.
    Here we are addressing those that do.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But that is not a valid criteria for determining that a whole group has a disorder. If even 50% attempt suicide that means that 50% do not attempt suicide. So where is the evidence that the other 50% have a disorder?
    A 50/50 shot at correctly diagnosing a disorder.. is a strong indicator that they should receive treatment or evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And therefore you are engaging in the appeal to self fallacy. Something isn't a disorder based on "because I say so".
    Straw-man. I did not say I made up the conclusion. I said that the criteria is made up. .. as all are.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    While you can forward the suicide rate as something significant, you CANNOT use that as a criteria for determining when a group has a disorder without supporting that with an external source of support.
    Who says? America is taking all kinds of actions like that. seeking to take guns away from the mentally disabled for example. Not based on an actual attempt at violence, just the general criteria.. and I bet it is a lot less than 50% rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I'm only appealing to experts to get a valid definition of a disorder and then use logic to determine what is and is not a disorder so I'm not appealing to the experts. I'm using plain logic to show that unless you can show that you have not supported that transgenderism is a disease.

    And btw, I do acknowledge that psychological disorders are more prevalent amongst the transgendered and that likely is a factor in their higher rate of suicide (although external factors such as discrimination does contribute). Transgendered people do suffer from body dysmorphia at a greater rate than cisgendered people. So if you want to argue that transgendered people are more likely to have disorder, I won't disagree. But being more likely to have a disorder is not a disorder itself (as an example, a community being more disposed to diabetes or alcoholism does not mean the whole community has a disorder). Again, if there are transgendered people who do not suffer from what the experts have determined a disorder is, then a portion of the transgendered community have no disorder and therefore it cannot be said that the community as a whole suffers from a disorder.
    It is a sign of something wrong though.

    For example, if you could show that the smith family was 500xs more likely to become alcoholics. That would indicate that there is something WRONG with the smith family in general.

    What your arguing is to say that because 1 smith child(or even half) has no propensity for addiction, then there is nothing wrong with the family as a whole.

    The problem is we are dealing with that malleable world "normal". If the rate is 4% for everything else, then the group that suffers 50% is the definition of abnormal. It is an abnormal group... something is wrong.
    That is how we know body dismorphea is bad. After all, isn't there someone out there that cut off their penis and is perfectly happy? Does that mean we should accept that as "normal" "Healthy" behavior? No.. absolutely not, because that kind of thinking damages
    far, far more. Disorder doesn't mean 100%. People get along with all sorts of disorders.

    Basically, I think the weakness in your position would be to say. Because some people are perfectly able to get along in society even though they have no legs. Thus they are not "disabled".
    Your logic simply wouldn't hold with any known ailment.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  14. #34
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What, support he claim that suicide is a sign of mental issues?
    No. Support or retract that a high suicide rate amongst a group means that all members of the group are suffering from a disorder


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think you have the burden to show that it is.
    I was writing in anticipation a response to a possible challenge.
    I pointed to the statistically high suicide rate of those who are not recognized as transgender.
    So my response to a possible challenge is supported. If you would like to actually raise the challenge, then you have the burden.
    Okay. I will support it. With a logic chain.

    1. Unhappiness is a significant contributor to the desire to commit suicide
    2. Those who are bullied and discriminated against are more unhappy than those who don't suffer such things.
    3. Transgender people are more likely to face such discrimination than those who aren't transgendered.
    4. Therefore discrimination makes a transgendered person more likely to commit suicide than others.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.
    The very definition of transgender is someone who fails to recognize that is what they are.
    Fail to recognize that they have a penis? I think those with penises recognize that they have one.

    Quite simply, you are abiding by YOUR OWN definition of "male" and have decided if one is born with a penis, they are male. That's apparently MT's definition of "male". But it's not a disorder to disagree with you on the matter.

    So you have not supported that transgendered have a disorder because of such a disagreement.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transgender
    "noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;"

    Ie what they think doesn't correspond to reality.
    What reality are you referring to? The only reality you've provided is what you think constitutes "male" and "female".




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You have contradicted yourself.
    You said if they are "indeed as happy and well-adjusted as anyone else then it cannot be said that that person has a disorder."
    Then said
    "A disorder does not preclude being happy despite having the disorder."

    I can't respond to an internally inconsistent position.
    Please note that the first comment included "well-adjusted" and the second one didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Further, for those 40% that are apparently not happy and not well adjusted so as to attempt suicide, they are suffering from mental disorders.
    First off, not all suicide attempts are due to a mental disorder (one can have problems that aren't related to a mental disorder). And will you concede that the there's no evidence that the 60% who have not attempted suicide don't necessarily have any real problems?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Here we are addressing those that do.
    We are debating whether ALL transgendered people have a disorder so we are discussing BOTH those that do and those that don't.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Straw-man. I did not say I made up the conclusion. I said that the criteria is made up. .. as all are.
    You said my own made up criteria. I do not consider that criteria that someone makes up themselves is valid criteria. Criteria forwarded by experts is a valid criteria.

    So your "suicide rate" criteria is not valid unless you can provide external support that it is valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is a sign of something wrong though.

    For example, if you could show that the smith family was 500xs more likely to become alcoholics. That would indicate that there is something WRONG with the smith family in general.
    You are moving the goalpost, then. You have gone from arguing that all transgendered people have a disorder to now arguing that there's "something wrong".

    I have provided a valid definition of "mental disorder" and transgenderism is a disorder then every transgendered person suffers from what is SPECIFICALLY defined as a mental disorder.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What your arguing is to say that because 1 smith child(or even half) has no propensity for addiction, then there is nothing wrong with the family as a whole.
    No. Holding to that analogy, I am saying that because 1 Smith child is not an alcoholic, one cannot say that ALL of the Smiths are alcoholics. And likewise one cannot say that ALL transgendered people have a mental disorder just because one can show that many of them do.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The problem is we are dealing with that malleable world "normal". If the rate is 4% for everything else, then the group that suffers 50% is the definition of abnormal. It is an abnormal group... something is wrong.
    That is how we know body dismorphea is bad. After all, isn't there someone out there that cut off their penis and is perfectly happy? Does that mean we should accept that as "normal" "Healthy" behavior? No.. absolutely not, because that kind of thinking damages
    far, far more. Disorder doesn't mean 100%. People get along with all sorts of disorders.
    Disorder DOES mean 100%. How many schizophrenics suffer from schizophrenia? 100%, obviously. Maybe some milder schizophrenics do relatively well, but regardless they still have the mental disorder of schizophrenia.

    And if you want to shift the debate and intentionally move the goalpost, that's fine We can shift a bit. But you cannot argue that transgenderism is a mental disorder until you support that it is by showing that everyone who has this condition qualifies as having a disorder as a mental disorder is professionally defined.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Basically, I think the weakness in your position would be to say. Because some people are perfectly able to get along in society even though they have no legs. Thus they are not "disabled".
    Your logic simply wouldn't hold with any known ailment.
    No, YOUR logic wouldn't hold with any known ailment. You seem to arguing that not everyone who has a mental disorder actually has a mental disorder - that if we can show that some people in a group have a disorder, we can conclude that all of the rest of them do even if they show no signs of having a disorder.

  15. #35
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No. Support or retract that a high suicide rate amongst a group means that all members of the group are suffering from a disorder
    That was not the claim you challenged.
    Here is the claim.
    MT = "By all accounts a suicide rate that high, is in fact as strong of an expression of "signification distress or disability" as is possible."

    So, what is a higher possible indicator of significant stress or disability than suicide?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Okay. I will support it. With a logic chain.

    1. Unhappiness is a significant contributor to the desire to commit suicide
    2. Those who are bullied and discriminated against are more unhappy than those who don't suffer such things.
    3. Transgender people are more likely to face such discrimination than those who aren't transgendered.
    4. Therefore discrimination makes a transgendered person more likely to commit suicide than others.
    The conclusion is not relevant because it is not quantified.
    In other words, what reason do we have to think that, that outside factor could contribute to a 38% increase over every other group?

    so 28% of children grades 6-12 experience bullying.
    Do half of those children commit sucide? (no)
    https://www.stopbullying.gov/media/f...dex.html#stats

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Fail to recognize that they have a penis? I think those with penises recognize that they have one.

    Quite simply, you are abiding by YOUR OWN definition of "male" and have decided if one is born with a penis, they are male. That's apparently MT's definition of "male". But it's not a disorder to disagree with you on the matter.

    So you have not supported that transgendered have a disorder because of such a disagreement.
    You seem to be focused on it being "mine" as though who makes the argument matters.
    Further in this case you are factually incorrect.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/male
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    What reality are you referring to? The only reality you've provided is what you think constitutes "male" and "female".
    Yes, I point to the most obvious one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Please note that the first comment included "well-adjusted" and the second one didn't.
    Yes, "well adjusted" was not defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    First off, not all suicide attempts are due to a mental disorder (one can have problems that aren't related to a mental disorder). And will you concede that the there's no evidence that the 60% who have not attempted suicide don't necessarily have any real problems?
    Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    We are debating whether ALL transgendered people have a disorder so we are discussing BOTH those that do and those that don't.
    and I'm using suicide as an indicator. If you can't accept it as an indicator for those that actually attempt it, then you can't accept that the group has a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    You said my own made up criteria. I do not consider that criteria that someone makes up themselves is valid criteria. Criteria forwarded by experts is a valid criteria.

    So your "suicide rate" criteria is not valid unless you can provide external support that it is valid.
    Yes, they are all made up, this one is mine .. or one.
    Now on to the merits. Unless you want a PHd to make it up instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    You are moving the goalpost, then. You have gone from arguing that all transgendered people have a disorder to now arguing that there's "something wrong".

    I have provided a valid definition of "mental disorder" and transgenderism is a disorder then every transgendered person suffers from what is SPECIFICALLY defined as a mental disorder.
    Yes, My larger contention is that they have a disorder. I am starting from the most obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Disorder DOES mean 100%. How many schizophrenics suffer from schizophrenia? 100%, obviously. Maybe some milder schizophrenics do relatively well, but regardless they still have the mental disorder of schizophrenia.

    And if you want to shift the debate and intentionally move the goalpost, that's fine We can shift a bit. But you cannot argue that transgenderism is a mental disorder until you support that it is by showing that everyone who has this condition qualifies as having a disorder as a mental disorder is professionally defined.
    That doesn't make schizophrenia a disorder though.
    All you said was that trans are trans.
    100% of trans are trans.. I guess it is a disorder now according your reasoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No, YOUR logic wouldn't hold with any known ailment. You seem to arguing that not everyone who has a mental disorder actually has a mental disorder - that if we can show that some people in a group have a disorder, we can conclude that all of the rest of them do even if they show no signs of having a disorder.
    No, I am arguing that just because some are "happy" or appear to be "well adjusted" doesn't mean they do not in fact have a "disorder".
    That they are "not normal" and that something is "wrong".

    The evidence that there is something wrong. Is that they suffer from a high suicide rate.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  16. #36
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That was not the claim you challenged.
    Here is the claim.
    MT = "By all accounts a suicide rate that high, is in fact as strong of an expression of "signification distress or disability" as is possible."
    And of course you are referring to the suicide rate amongst the transgendered. And I asked you to support or retract that.

    So SUPPORT OR RETRACT that a suicide rate that high amongst the transgendered, is in fact as strong of an expression of "signification distress or disability" of the transgendered community as is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The conclusion is not relevant because it is not quantified.
    I didn't say that it was quantified. I just supported that it is a factor in the increase in suicide. NEITHER OF US has quantified how significant a factor that it is and therefore you have no basis to argue that it's not a significant factor.

    You can't argue that discrimination is not a significant factor in the high suicide rate without supporting that it's insignificant.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    so 28% of children grades 6-12 experience bullying.
    Do half of those children commit sucide? (no)
    But then I've supported in an earlier post that the external problems that transgendered face is different, and more significant, than what a kid might face on the playground. Here it is again.

    Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following:
    — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care
    • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
    • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59%
    • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65%
    — At school (any level): 63-78%
    — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement
    • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61%
    • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70
    — Experienced homelessness: 69%"


    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

    So beyond schoolyard bullying (which is likely worse for transgendered kids than those who are bullied for other reasons( we have rejection from family, discrimination at work, harassment and even violence from law enforcement, homelessness, and doctors refusing to treat them. If you want to discount all of these things, you will need to support that they are not particularly significant.

    Until you do succeed in showing that all of the forms of discrimination listed above do not significantly factor into the high suicide rate, it remains possible that that discrimination is the primary reason for the high suicide rate. To say it is is indeed guesswork but then to say that it's not is likewise guesswork and therefore your argument is based on guesswork as opposed to valid support.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You seem to be focused on it being "mine" as though who makes the argument matters.
    Further in this case you are factually incorrect.
    But either way, this is amounting to nothing more than a semantic argument. You have not shown that the transgendered are delusional about any aspect of physical reality but just that they may use a word differently than others do. Being incorrect on a semantic level is not a sign of a disorder.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes, "well adjusted" was not defined.
    Because I assumed you know what the term means. I don't offer the definition of terms if I assume they are understood. Regardless, my argument was not contradictory.

    And what I mean by "well adjusted" is that they don't suffer from what is clinically determined to be a mental disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Nope
    Then can you offer support that those transgendered who do not attempt suicide suffer from a disorder?



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    and I'm using suicide as an indicator. If you can't accept it as an indicator for those that actually attempt it, then you can't accept that the group has a problem.
    I agree that the group has a problem with society in general discriminating against them. And I don't agree that the problem is that the group as a whole is suffering from a mental disorder.

    I'm not actually specifying the cause of the high suicide rate but if you are going to argue that ONE particular reason is the cause, then you not only need to show that there's a problem but that the problem is caused by that one reason. And since you have specified the reason is because transgendered people have a mental disorder, I ask that you SUPPORT OR RETRACT that they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes, they are all made up, this one is mine .. or one.
    Now on to the merits. Unless you want a PHd to make it up instead?
    I'll go with an expert opinion, yes. You making up criteria that happens to suit your argument falls far short of that and is rejected for that reason.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That doesn't make schizophrenia a disorder though.
    All you said was that trans are trans.
    100% of trans are trans.. I guess it is a disorder now according your reasoning?
    No, I'm saying that if X is a mental disorder than every single person who suffers from X will have symptoms that qualify them as having a mental disorder. And a mental disorder is "a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning." ALL schizophrenics have what's described above and therefore schizophrenia qualifies as a mental disorder.

    The position that all transgendered people have a "syndrome" as described above has not been supported and therefore the notion that transgenderism is a mental disorder is not supported.

    Once you show that to be transgendered is to have a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning is when you have supported that transgenderism is a mental disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, I am arguing that just because some are "happy" or appear to be "well adjusted" doesn't mean they do not in fact have a "disorder".
    That they are "not normal" and that something is "wrong".

    The evidence that there is something wrong. Is that they suffer from a high suicide rate.
    But since there are numerous possible ways that something could be wrong (such as facing discrimination) just showing that something is wrong does not qualify as support that they suffer from a mental disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; October 28th, 2017 at 07:32 AM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, moving the goalpost. We are debating whether they have a mental disorder, not whether there's "something wrong".
    As an aside, homosexuality was removed from "disorders" from DSM II in 1973. Prior to that it was it was a disorder!
    Of particular notice is the fact it was removed by a vote, not by any studies, new information, or the like. IOW, it looks more like a "political" decision, than a practical one.
    Also the classification of homosexuality was changed from "disorder" to a new classification, "sexual orientation disturbance". In 1980 "SOD" was itself replaced with "ego-dystonic homosexuality" which basically said "happy homosexuals did not have a mental disorder, but unhappy ones did". After 1987, this was completely removed from DSM.


    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...kinksters.html


    (again personally, DSM seems like a lot of bullsh!t. Asperger's used to be a "real" disorder but, well, not in DSM-V, for instance).

  18. #38
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by belthazor
    As an aside, homosexuality was removed from "disorders" from DSM II in 1973. Prior to that it was it was a disorder!
    Of particular notice is the fact it was removed by a vote, not by any studies, new information, or the like. IOW, it looks more like a "political" decision, than a practical one.
    Also the classification of homosexuality was changed from "disorder" to a new classification, "sexual orientation disturbance". In 1980 "SOD" was itself replaced with "ego-dystonic homosexuality" which basically said "happy homosexuals did not have a mental disorder, but unhappy ones did". After 1987, this was completely removed from DSM.
    When I was in my college psyc classes, the professor referenced it as a politically driven change. ..so yea, that is what I was taught.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    As an aside, homosexuality was removed from "disorders" from DSM II in 1973. Prior to that it was it was a disorder!
    Of particular notice is the fact it was removed by a vote, not by any studies, new information, or the like. IOW, it looks more like a "political" decision, than a practical one.
    Please provide support that new information did not influence the decision to have a vote or the outcome of the vote. And please don't use anti-gay websites as support.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Also the classification of homosexuality was changed from "disorder" to a new classification, "sexual orientation disturbance". In 1980 "SOD" was itself replaced with "ego-dystonic homosexuality" which basically said "happy homosexuals did not have a mental disorder, but unhappy ones did". After 1987, this was completely removed from DSM.
    So it sounds like they got it more correct as time went on. There is no doubt that there has always been a lot of bigotry against gays in our society and it seems pretty reasonable to forward that this bigotry had a significant effect on whether homosexuality was considered a disorder or not. So likewise, it stands to reason that as bigotry against gays decreased over time, the psychological community were better able to more accurately categorize homosexuality.

    So I would say that today we have a much more accurate assessment of homosexuality and disorder than we did in the past.

    ---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    When I was in my college psyc classes, the professor referenced it as a politically driven change. ..so yea, that is what I was taught.
    Even if that was the case, that was over forty years ago. There is no reason to think that today's professional assessment of homosexuality is based on anything other than what science shows.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And please don't use anti-gay websites as support.
    Why did you feel the need to include this?

    ---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Please provide support that new information did not influence the decision to have a vote or the outcome of the vote. And please don't use anti-gay websites as support.
    How do you feel about Psychology Today as a source?


    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ental-disorder



    There is nothing about this that is a secret.

 

 
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