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Thread: Gay/Transgender

  1. #81
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And when I challenge you to offer support (which is different than me claiming that you did not offer support) your obligation , per the rules, is to:

    offer relevant support or retract the claim.

    So take your pick. Offer support or retract your claim.
    That is true.
    I picked to support my claim.

    err.
    What is I supported my claim?
    .. or
    "who is I supported my claim".

    I'm not sure how to phrase it as a question Trebek.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  2. #82
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is true.
    I picked to support my claim.

    err.
    What is I supported my claim?
    .. or
    "who is I supported my claim".

    I'm not sure how to phrase it as a question Trebek.

    Actually, quite humorous, and I appreciate humor for sure.

    I believe you are trying to exemplify the current folly of where this this thread has degraded to. If so, I agree.

    ---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Nonsense.
    Just because an organization has an agenda doesn't mean they will lie or are ignorant of the subject matter. So Christian sites will undoubtedly try to promote the things that agree with their position. And they will try to mitigate things that don't agree with their position. We all do that. Kinda the definition of bias.

    If the "the Flat Earth Society" claimed the moon was a sphere (citing "accredited professional's in the field" as MT stated his sources are) should we dismiss the claim without examining it because clearly they have an agenda about the earth being flat?

    Put another way, MT says his sources are "accredited professionals in the field", if they are not, it should be easy enough for you to show they are not (which would be quite embarrassing for him I would think). Rather than just say a site that quoted these individuals makes the INFORMATION invalid.

    To me you appear to just being stubborn as you have really not given a sound reason to not even give a cursory read to the evidence offered, only rejected it out of hand because you don't like the bias of websites quoting these "accredited professionals".
    (even if these sites were lying, the most believable lies STILL contain a lot of truth on purpose!).

    So, to further the discussion, you should not attack "the website" who is repeating information (obviously biased that they are), attack THE information and THE "accredited professional" making the claim.

    I think this didn't get thru the first time so trying again since it MAKES SENSE and was not responded to the first time.....


    And if the current conversation persists in it's present form, I will continue to promote common sense!!!!!
    (as in this post "should have been in RED" as I sense an ODN rule issue (but nobody else is stepping up to the plate, so..........)
    (of course I don't really suggest I am moderator material {at least yet}, but my personal opinion is, the "current issue" you two are having, amusing as it is, should be resolved with haste. "Qualifying support" should not take pages to resolve.)

  3. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  4. #83
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is true.
    I picked to support my claim.
    No. You picked to go tell me to find your support in a certain post.

    That does not qualify as offering support.

    Again, offering means that one presents something - not that they tell someone else how to go find it. You have not offered support when challenged to. So you are in violation of the rules (unless you are retracting your argument).

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Actually, quite humorous, and I appreciate humor for sure.

    I believe you are trying to exemplify
    This is sadly true. It’s devolving
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  6. #85
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Actually, quite humorous, and I appreciate humor for sure.

    I believe you are trying to exemplify the current folly of where this this thread has degraded to. If so, I agree.
    If true, then his responses are indeed spam. So there's no longer any interest in forwarding the debate but just trolling me and spamming the thread. If one has nothing of value to contribute to a debate, they should not post (see spam rule).

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If true, then his responses are indeed spam. So there's no longer any interest in forwarding the debate but just trolling me and spamming the thread. If one has nothing of value to contribute to a debate, they should not post (see spam rule).
    This is unfortunately true. I think that most of the recent responses are spam.
    A divided minority will always beat a divided majority.

  8. #87
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    No. You picked to go tell me to find your support in a certain post.
    When that support is in the thread that is completely appropriate.


    ---
    Such as..
    Hey, i have a question What about this?
    o that, I was asked that question already, so you can find it in post 52(for example).
    Yes, but my question is actually a challenge for support.
    Ah, well the whole post is kinda addressing that, so if you have any questions you can ask and I will try to address them to the best of my ability.
    ----
    you know, just as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    That does not qualify as offering support.
    And simply ignoring offered support is not a valid challenge. .. unless the challenge is repeated like 5xs. Which means on the 6th time it's valid. So it's like 1,2,3,4,5.. valid
    not 1,2,3,4,valid. So I guess that would really be six times.
    See the number of times it's repeated is really the key to a good rebuttal. I think CAPS also increases it's valid factor by something like 11. So that is as much as 66 valid units.
    I think your only on 4, so your a little short of a valid challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, offering means that one presents something - not that they tell someone else how to go find it. You have not offered support when challenged to. So you are in violation of the rules (unless you are retracting your argument).
    Which is what I did in response to your challenge in post 40ish.
    I did offer support and you dismissed it.
    I am not retracting my argument. You can engage that argument any time you like.
    ... anytime. .. I'm around I'll read it. .. anytime.
    If you quote from it, you can jog my memory if the post was several pages back or written more than a week ago. My short term memory last for maybe a week, then my brain just sort of dumps it all. I don't even have to drink and every sunday is like GroundHogs day... or maybe Momento.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #88
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    When that support is in the thread that is completely appropriate.
    Because you say so? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

    The rules say that in response to a challenge you are to offer support. That means that AFTER the challenge is issued, you are to give me the support. So prior support does not count unless you choose to offer it (as in cut and paste it into a post that comes after the challenge).

    And again, if post 52 had just a point or two so I could easily tell which point was being offered as support, then I would just cut and paste it myself. But I don't think any of the points do qualify as support so I don't know which one you would want me to consider support to my challenge.

    And if you look at my responses in the post, I did not offer the challenge that I'm offering right now. If I had offered that challenge in post 52, then of course I should take whatever response you made to it and consider that a response to my current challenge but post 52 does not contain a direct response to my challenge. That doesn't mean that it says something that could be considered valid support for my current challenge but then if that's what you are claiming, then you have the obligation to OFFER it - per the rules.

    -
    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Such as..
    Hey, i have a question What about this?
    o that, I was asked that question already, so you can find it in post 52(for example).
    Yes, but my question is actually a challenge for support.
    Ah, well the whole post is kinda addressing that, so if you have any questions you can ask and I will try to address them to the best of my ability.
    Okay. Thanks.

    As you know I challenged you to support that the higher suicide rate is primarily due to a mental disorder as opposed to some other reason(s). I'm having trouble finding the argument in your post that supports that the that the higher suicide rate is primarily due to a mental disorder as opposed to some other reason(s). I mean I didn't even offer that challenge in that post so if you did offer support to that challenge, it was unintentional. I do see an argument saying that it's a mental disorder that leads to suicide but I see no argument saying that a mental disorder accounts for a greater percentage of suicides than other factors (such as discrimination). Maybe I missed it

    So can you help me out and show me where in the post where you have offered support? Thanks in advance.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which is what I did in response to your challenge in post 40ish.
    I did offer support and you dismissed it.
    I did? Where did you offer support that I dismissed?
    Last edited by mican333; November 7th, 2017 at 07:18 AM.

  10. #89
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If true, then his responses are indeed spam. So there's no longer any interest in forwarding the debate but just trolling me and spamming the thread. If one has nothing of value to contribute to a debate, they should not post (see spam rule).


    I didn't "troll you" Mican, I just don't agree with your position (with regards to not accepting MT's support only because of the openly biased website that is reporting it, not what "qualified professional" was actually saying) and was offering a way to move the thread forward, as it's been stuck for some time. I have read Apok saying the same thing many times in different threads, and he is correct, "attack the argument, not the person making the argument". So I am neither spamming nor trolling, I just don't see any other moderators stepping in at the moment, so I was just trying to help.


    However, I apologize if you took it as a personal attack, I honestly did not mean it that way.

  11. #90
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I didn't "troll you" Mican, I just don't agree with your position (with regards to not accepting MT's support only because of the openly biased website that is reporting it, not what "qualified professional" was actually saying) and was offering a way to move the thread forward, as it's been stuck for some time.
    I did not accuse you of trolling. Note that my first statement is "If true, then his responses are indeed spam", not "your responses". I was talking to you but not about you.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And gender dysphoria in a heterosexual can be a disorder as well.

    Since you and MT have apparently "resolved" your issue, back to my claim homosexuality "can" be a disorder as promised.

    In this post you agreed but claimed a heterosexual can ALSO have gender dysphoria.

    Can you support a heterosexual has ever been diagnosed with this disorder?

    ---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No on all counts. I have stated clearly that homosexuality is NOT a disorder and have supported that. I agree that a homosexual can have a disorder - a gay schizophrenic will have the disorder of schizophrenia but then that applies to heterosexuals as well.
    This was your next post after agreeing it "could be" a disorder.

    Yet is appears DSM recognizes it "can" be a disorder



    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_3385287.html
    "In the old DSM-IV, GID focused on the “identity” issue — namely, the incongruity between someone’s birth gender and the gender with which he or she identifies. While this incongruity is still crucial to gender dysphoria, the drafters of the new DSM-5 wanted to emphasize the importance of distress about the incongruity for a diagnosis. (The DSM-5 uses the term gender rather than sex to allow for those born with both male and female genitalia to have the condition.)"

  13. #92
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    In this post you agreed but claimed a heterosexual can ALSO have gender dysphoria.

    Can you support a heterosexual has ever been diagnosed with this disorder?
    Yes. Bruce Jenner is a heterosexual (had several children) and had gender dysphoria.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Yet is appears DSM recognizes it "can" be a disorder
    The text does not say that. It basically says that a transgendered person can have dysphoria, not that transgenderism can be a disorder.



    Also, it is okay with you if I delete our posts about the miscommunication regarding trolling? Since it's just a misunderstanding it does not forward the debate. I wouldn't say it's in violation of the rules but it doesn't really serve any purpose since it's just about a misunderstanding so I'd like to remove it. It that alright with you?

  14. #93
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes. Bruce Jenner is a heterosexual (had several children) and had gender dysphoria.




    The text does not say that. It basically says that a transgendered person can have dysphoria, not that transgenderism can be a disorder.



    Also, it is okay with you if I delete our posts about the miscommunication regarding trolling? Since it's just a misunderstanding it does not forward the debate. I wouldn't say it's in violation of the rules but it doesn't really serve any purpose since it's just about a misunderstanding so I'd like to remove it. It that alright with you?
    It says

    “The concept underlying eliminating homosexuality from the DSM was recognizing that you can be homosexual and psychological healthy or be homosexual and psychologically screwed up. Being homosexual didn’t have to be the issue,” Rosenberg said. "

    Stating that it doesn't "have to be" is also stating that it "can" be.

  15. #94
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    I didn't get a response before. Is it alright with you if I delete the posts regarding our "trolling" miscommunication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It says

    “The concept underlying eliminating homosexuality from the DSM was recognizing that you can be homosexual and psychological healthy or be homosexual and psychologically screwed up. Being homosexual didn’t have to be the issue,” Rosenberg said. "

    Stating that it doesn't "have to be" is also stating that it "can" be.
    But the statement is not referring to "it". The pronoun it uses is "you" as in it's referring to individual homosexuals. So it's saying that a gay person can be healthy or be screwed up.

    So it's saying some gay people have a disorder and some do not. Going by that, there is no support for the position that homosexuality itself is a disorder (or else they would all have a disorder).

    In general, I think you are conflating the notion that a homosexual can have a disorder with the notion that homosexuality can be a disorder. Those two notions are not the same (just like the fact that a heterosexual can have a disorder does not indicate that heterosexuality can be a disorder).
    Last edited by mican333; November 7th, 2017 at 07:32 PM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn't get a response before. Is it alright with you if I delete the posts regarding our "trolling" miscommunication?
    I would prefer that you did not delete it.

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So it's saying some gay people have a disorder and some do not. Going by that, there is no support for the position that homosexuality itself is a disorder (or else they would all have a disorder).
    Which is what I have been saying, "some gay people have a disorder". As in being gay can "can" meet the criteria of a disorder has been supported.

    Not all people that gamble have a disorder.
    Not all people that drink alcohol have a disorder.
    Not all people that have sex have a disorder.
    Not all people that eat have a disorder.

    But, clearly all those things can be a disorder.

    ---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes. Bruce Jenner is a heterosexual (had several children) and had gender dysphoria.
    Just a thought, but if Bruce Jenner "is a woman trapped in a man's body" wouldn't "she" be lesbian when having sex with a woman?

    Also, if a woman had a child/children, does that mean she is heterosexual?
    Last edited by Belthazor; November 8th, 2017 at 06:08 PM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I would prefer that you did not delete it.
    Okay

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Which is what I have been saying, "some gay people have a disorder". As in being gay can "can" meet the criteria of a disorder has been supported.
    Homosexuality is defined as an attraction to the same gender. That either meets the definition of a disorder or it does not. And it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Not all people that gamble have a disorder.
    Not all people that drink alcohol have a disorder.
    Not all people that have sex have a disorder.
    Not all people that eat have a disorder.
    And likewise gambling, drinking, sex, and eating are not considered disorders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But, clearly all those things can be a disorder.
    No, they are not disorders. I think what you mean is that an addiction to them can be a disorder and that's true. But just eating and gambling does not qualify as a disorder.

    And of course if one does accept what you are saying, then heterosexuality "can" be a disorder as well since one can be addicted to heterosexual sex.

    So let's say that even going by your terminology homosexuality is no more of a disorder than heterosexuality is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Just a thought, but if Bruce Jenner "is a woman trapped in a man's body" wouldn't "she" be lesbian when having sex with a woman?

    Also, if a woman had a child/children, does that mean she is heterosexual?
    Well, I'm just going to stick to debating the issue so I have no response to this.
    Last edited by mican333; November 9th, 2017 at 07:26 AM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Homosexuality is defined as an attraction to the same gender. That either meets the definition of a disorder or it does not. And it does not.

    Ummm. This is your opinion.

    I believe the criteria you posted some time back included something about causing distress etc in your life.

    ---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And likewise gambling, drinking, sex, and eating are not considered disorders.

    It seems they are or "can" be:


    https://www.eatingdisorders.org.au/e...isorders/dsm-5


    Classifying eating disorders - DSM-5

    Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
    About the DSM-5
    Anorexia Nervosa
    Bulimia Nervosa
    Binge Eating Disorder
    Pica
    Rumination Disorder
    Avoidant/Restrictive Food Intake Disorder (ARFID)
    Other Specified Feeding or Eating Disorder (OSFED)
    Unspecified Feeding or Eating Disorder (UFED)

    ---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I'm just going to stick to debating the issue so I have no response to this.

    Well you were the one to bring up he is "heterosexual" cause he has kids etc..

    ---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But the statement is not referring to "it". The pronoun it uses is "you" as in it's referring to individual homosexuals. So it's saying that a gay person can be healthy or be screwed up.
    Exactly what I have been saying all along....

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Ummm. This is your opinion.
    Your argument is more opinion based than mine. I'm generally abiding by the professional definition of what is and is not a disorder and therefore appealing to the experts for my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I believe the criteria you posted some time back included something about causing distress etc in your life.
    Right. As in does cause distress, not that it can cause distress. A disorder consistently causes harm of some kind (like distress) and is not something that might cause distress.

    Any regular, even healthy, activity can cause distress. I work out regularly and that can cause me some distress when I know I should work out but really don't want to - as in I either force myself to go when I don't want to go or I feel bad if I do skip it. But that does not mean that working out is, or can be, a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It seems they are or "can" be
    One can have an eating disorder. But it does not mean that eating is, or can be, a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well you were the one to bring up he is "heterosexual" cause he has kids etc..
    Sure. And if you have an argument regarding that, I'll debate it if I disagree with your statement. But asking me a bunch of questions does not equate an argument to respond to and therefore does not equate debate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Exactly what I have been saying all along....
    Which in no way leads one to the conclusion that homosexuality can be a disorder. It means that a homosexual can have a disorder. And so can a heterosexual.

    And as I said, and you did not rebut, that even if you want to say that homosexuality can be a disorder (because a person can be addicted to gay sex), then it's likewise true that heterosexuality can be a disorder because a person can be addicted to straight sex and therefore homosexuality is more of a disorder than heterosexuality.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    In general, I think you are conflating the notion that a homosexual can have a disorder with the notion that homosexuality can be a disorder.
    I should count how many times I have said "CAN" be a disorder and NOT once have I said it "MUST" be a disorder.
    It is supported,
    the last word is yours

    (I wish you would wait till I'm done with my post before you start responding. just a thought)

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I should count how many times I have said "CAN" be a disorder and NOT once have I said it "MUST" be a disorder.
    And while you are at it, you should count how many times I said that your argument says that it "must" be a disorder. I think you'll count zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It is supported,
    the last word is yours
    You can't accurately say that your argument is supported when your opponent is waging valid arguments showing how it's not supported.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    (I wish you would wait till I'm done with my post before you start responding. just a thought)
    Then I'd recommend that you not post your reply until you've finished all of it instead of posting it piecemeal.

 

 
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