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Thread: Gay/Transgender

  1. #101
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And while you are at it, you should count how many times I said that your argument says that it "must" be a disorder. I think you'll count zero.
    You are the one saying a disorder "must" include all. As in all homosexuals "must" have a disorder or it cannot be a disorder.

    You don't like it when I say why I am leaving a thread because you aren't being intellectually honest, as I am not seeing valid arguments or I would have stayed.
    have a great night Mican, I am sure we will talk again soon
    B

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You are the one saying a disorder "must" include all. As in all homosexuals "must" have a disorder or it cannot be a disorder.
    And that is absolutely correct. That is MY argument and it is correct. Take any known disease/disorder as an example. How many schizophrenics have a disorder? 100% (they all have the disorder of schizophrenia). How many people with cancer have a disease? 100%, again. I can go over every disease/disorder and produce the same answer.

    And as I said, if you count how many times I said YOUR argument (not MY, but YOUR) arguments says it "must" be a disorder, I think you'll count zero. So go ahead and count how many times I said YOUR argument says it must be a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You don't like it when I say why I am leaving a thread because you aren't being intellectually honest, as I am not seeing valid arguments or I would have stayed.
    Well, I don't think anyone likes to be falsely accused of intellectual dishonesty.

    I would suggest that you at least consider the possibility that maybe you are incorrect or are misunderstanding my argument before you accuse me of being intellectually dishonest. I consider such accusations to be a breach of debate etiquette. You should show more respect to your debate opponents.

    And I did produced a valid argument. Again, am I wrong? Isn't a fact that everyone who DOES have a known disorder actually has a disorder? Are there any schizophrenics who don't suffer from a disorder? Can you find a disorder where not everyone who has it is suffering from a disorder?


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    have a great night Mican, I am sure we will talk again soon
    B
    And I hope you will be more respectful if we do.
    Last edited by mican333; November 10th, 2017 at 01:04 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And that is absolutely correct. That is MY argument and it is correct. Take any known disease/disorder as an example. How many schizophrenics have a disorder? 100% (they all have the disorder of schizophrenia). How many people with cancer have a disease? 100%, again. I can go over every disease/disorder and produce the same answer.



    And I hope you will be more respectful if we do.
    If you go back to your post of what qualifies as disorder, I don't think you will find what you are claiming about "all".

    And I showed "eating disorders" defined from DSMV. Not all people that eat have a eating disorder. SOME do.

    And the incredibly high suicide rate MT references also helps support some homosexuals have a disorder. Going by your post (some time ago...) of what a disorder is, as in causing "distress" etc in your life.

    just a couple thoughts...

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If you go back to your post of what qualifies as disorder, I don't think you will find what you are claiming about "all".

    And I showed "eating disorders" defined from DSMV. Not all people that eat have a eating disorder. SOME do.
    Right. Some people who eat have an eating disorder. But that does not mean that eating itself is a disorder. And likewise not everyone who experiences sexual desire has a disorder and therefore having a sexual desire for people of the other gender and your own gender is not a disorder.

    You saying something that is not a disorder "can be" a disorder is just playing around with language and not really addressing the issue of what is and is not a disorder. From a professional level, something either IS a disorder or IS NOT a disorder. And it doesn't qualify as a disorder, then it's not a disorder. And neither homosexuality, heterosexuality, nor transgenderism qualify as a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And the incredibly high suicide rate MT references also helps support some homosexuals have a disorder. Going by your post (some time ago...) of what a disorder is, as in causing "distress" etc in your life.
    But a disorder causes distress in EVERYONE who suffers from the disorder.

    Beyond the fact that there is no support that the high suicide rate cannot be attributed to something other than a disorder (such as discrimination), even if one is to argue that all of those who attempt suicide are suffering from a disorder (which, again, has not been supported), that does not show that those who do not attempt suicide are suffering from a disorder and therefore it does not show that every transgendered person has a disorder and therefore this does not support that transgenderism is a disorder.

    Quite simply, the high suicide rate argument seems to be a "backwards logic" argument. Instead of FIRST showing what rate of suicide would be evidence of a mental disorder and then objectively applying this criteria to certain groups to see if they fit the predetermined criteria, one just looks at the suicide rate of a group and then, without any support that it's accurate or appropriate, says that's the rate where it's an indication of a disorder. I mean can you show me any external source that shows exactly what rate is the official rate of when a disorder is present? If not, then there's no basis to say that any particular rate shows that there's a disorder in the entire group.

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  6. #105
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Back to MT,

    I believe your argument that the 40% suicide rate is support that the group as a whole has a disorder to not be valid. For three reasons:

    1. You have not shown that the increase isn't significantly due to factor(s) other than mental illness. I've forward discrimination as a reason for the increase and have supported that it does have an effect. And of course, you would be correct in pointing out that I have not shown how significant an effect it has. And likewise you have not shown how significant an effect it has either. You discarded bullying on par with what the average bullying victim experiences but then that's not the only thing that a transgendered person would experience that can increase the likelihood of suicide. I provided numerous other things that they experience - such as being tossed out by their family, abuse from law enforcement and so on. What effect do THESE have on the suicide rate? If you don't know (and I'm guessing that is the case), then you don't know how significant these things are and therefore cannot say that they don't factor significantly into the suicide rate.

    2. You have not established what percentage of suicide rate means that the group as a whole has a disorder. From all appearances, you saying that 40% is the rate that determines that there is a mental disorder is just based on whatever the rate is for transgendered people. If the rate was instead 25%, then I'm guessing you would have picked that as the rate to determine that there's a mental disorder. So there is no support that the rate you are using for your criteria is valid. IMO, for one to say that a suicide rate means the WHOLE group has a disorder, it would have to be shown that almost the whole group is suicidal and therefore the rate should be more like 80%. And of course that's just my opinion and you don't need to accept it but then I likewise don't need to accept your opinion on the matter either. Now, if you can support that a certain rate is a sign that the whole group has a mental disorder with some kind of professional external link, that's a different matter. But until you do support that a certain rate is indeed the line where one can determine that the group as a whole has a disorder, the rate you are using isn't particularly valid.

    3. Arguing what applies to the minority of a group applies to the entirety of the group is essentially engaging in the hasty generalization fallacy.
    Last edited by mican333; November 14th, 2017 at 07:21 AM.

  7. #106
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    I think the problem MT and others are making by presupposing homosexuality/transgender is/should be a mental disorder is that you are simplifying the meaning of mental disorder. It seems that the 40% suicide rate figure has gone unchallenged and is accepted in this debate. So, the argument goes something like this. Being gay results in people 40% more likely than straight people to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, being gay is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, homosexuality is a mental disorder. If I've missed a link in this argument, feel free to clarify. So, Mican is accurately acknowledging a couple flaws in this line of reasoning. First, no one has made a direct correlation between homosexuality and suicide. Are homosexual people more likely to be clinically depressed, a common cause of suicide? If homosexuality is a mental disorder, then, by definition, it would be defined by a series of traits and those traits would each have to demonstrate a negative impact. For instance, in defining addiction, you can see the characteristics here:
    https://www.danya.com/dlc/bup/pdf/Dependence_DSM.PDF

    I don't want to waste space and list the characteristics here, but if you go through the list, all seven demonstrate some maladaptation and carry negative consequence. Can we say the same about being gay or transgender? Do gay men require more and more penis to satisfy their needs of homosexuality? Do these needs replace normal activities such as holding a job? Hopefully, you see where I am going here. Just saying gay people are more likely to be suicidal isn't enough. Again, as Mican argued, being suicidal could be a result of many social and environmental factors. Being gay may result in depression, however, it is not necessarily the homosexuality which is making someone depressed. It could be the result of other factors, such as societal pressure, family expectations, et al. These external forces do not meet the kinds of criteria through which mental disorders are defined. For example, someone may be depressed, but depression, in and of itself, isn't a mental disorder. The depressed person may have had someone in their life die, for example. Now, there are identity and sexual disorders which do exist. However, merely being gay does not rise to that standard.

    Here is what I'd offer to those who still insist that homosexuality is a mental disorder. List out the criteria you believe would diagnostically meet this disorder. Again, simply claiming high rates of suicide does not meet this challenge. Feel free to use the link I provided as a guideline.
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  8. #107
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    I think the problem MT and others are making by presupposing homosexuality/transgender is/should be a mental disorder is that you are simplifying the meaning of mental disorder. It seems that the 40% suicide rate figure has gone unchallenged and is accepted in this debate. So, the argument goes something like this. Being gay results in people 40% more likely than straight people to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, being gay is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, homosexuality is a mental disorder. If I've missed a link in this argument, feel free to clarify. So, Mican is accurately acknowledging a couple flaws in this line of reasoning. First, no one has made a direct correlation between homosexuality and suicide. Are homosexual people more likely to be clinically depressed, a common cause of suicide? If homosexuality is a mental disorder, then, by definition, it would be defined by a series of traits and those traits would each have to demonstrate a negative impact. For instance, in defining addiction, you can see the characteristics here:
    https://www.danya.com/dlc/bup/pdf/Dependence_DSM.PDF

    I don't want to waste space and list the characteristics here, but if you go through the list, all seven demonstrate some maladaptation and carry negative consequence. Can we say the same about being gay or transgender? Do gay men require more and more penis to satisfy their needs of homosexuality? Do these needs replace normal activities such as holding a job? Hopefully, you see where I am going here. Just saying gay people are more likely to be suicidal isn't enough. Again, as Mican argued, being suicidal could be a result of many social and environmental factors. Being gay may result in depression, however, it is not necessarily the homosexuality which is making someone depressed. It could be the result of other factors, such as societal pressure, family expectations, et al. These external forces do not meet the kinds of criteria through which mental disorders are defined. For example, someone may be depressed, but depression, in and of itself, isn't a mental disorder. The depressed person may have had someone in their life die, for example. Now, there are identity and sexual disorders which do exist. However, merely being gay does not rise to that standard.

    Here is what I'd offer to those who still insist that homosexuality is a mental disorder. List out the criteria you believe would diagnostically meet this disorder. Again, simply claiming high rates of suicide does not meet this challenge. Feel free to use the link I provided as a guideline.
    Just a few corrections.
    1) It is not that they(trans) are 40% more likely than straits, it is that of all the trans nearly half attempt suicide.
    2) That number is not in regards to homosexuality at all, rather transgender.
    3) That number is also controlled so as to reflect those who are never recognized as trans. Which means persecution for trans is ruled out. (You can't be persecuted for what is not recognized)
    IE If everyone is mean to you on line, and no one knows you are white, then it isn't because your white that they are mean.. they are probably just ass holes, or maybe your not likeable, or maybe it's opposites day and them being mean is actually them being nice.
    4) The argument I forwarded is not related or directed to homosexuality at all. (that I remember)
    5) I don't think you have accurately reflected my argument. As far as my argument is concerned you have directed it to much at gays. I may or may not spend more time addressing this, but I appreciate your input.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  9. #108
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think the problem MT and others are making by presupposing homosexuality/transgender is/should be a mental disorder is that you are simplifying the meaning of mental disorder. It seems that the 40% suicide rate figure has gone unchallenged and is accepted in this debate. So, the argument goes something like this. Being gay results in people 40% more likely than straight people to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, being gay is a sign of a mental disorder. Therefore, homosexuality is a mental disorder. If I've missed a link in this argument, feel free to clarify. So, Mican is accurately acknowledging a couple flaws in this line of reasoning. First, no one has made a direct correlation between homosexuality and suicide. Are homosexual people more likely to be clinically depressed, a common cause of suicide? If homosexuality is a mental disorder, then, by definition, it would be defined by a series of traits and those traits would each have to demonstrate a negative impact. For instance, in defining addiction, you can see the characteristics here:
    https://www.danya.com/dlc/bup/pdf/Dependence_DSM.PDF

    I don't want to waste space and list the characteristics here, but if you go through the list, all seven demonstrate some maladaptation and carry negative consequence. Can we say the same about being gay or transgender? Do gay men require more and more penis to satisfy their needs of homosexuality? Do these needs replace normal activities such as holding a job? Hopefully, you see where I am going here. Just saying gay people are more likely to be suicidal isn't enough. Again, as Mican argued, being suicidal could be a result of many social and environmental factors. Being gay may result in depression, however, it is not necessarily the homosexuality which is making someone depressed. It could be the result of other factors, such as societal pressure, family expectations, et al. These external forces do not meet the kinds of criteria through which mental disorders are defined. For example, someone may be depressed, but depression, in and of itself, isn't a mental disorder. The depressed person may have had someone in their life die, for example. Now, there are identity and sexual disorders which do exist. However, merely being gay does not rise to that standard.

    Here is what I'd offer to those who still insist that homosexuality is a mental disorder. List out the criteria you believe would diagnostically meet this disorder. Again, simply claiming high rates of suicide does not meet this challenge. Feel free to use the link I provided as a guideline.


    I really don't have an opinion on the subject and am just commenting devil's advocate for the most part. However, going by the definition posted earlier in the thread, I see no reason why being transgendered or homosexual can't be a disorder:

    "The DSM-5 says that “A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."


    Going by this definition, it would seem all kinds of things "could" be a disorder?
    I have not checked MT's sources, but if 40+% is a true number, then I don't think it matters if any of them have a "disorder", obviously these people need some kind of help (the help in question varying by individual of course).

    --------------------

    Well, to have a "condition" is sooo much different than a "disorder".
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_3385287.html
    "In the old DSM-IV, GID focused on the “identity” issue — namely, the incongruity between someone’s birth gender and the gender with which he or she identifies. While this incongruity is still crucial to gender dysphoria, the drafters of the new DSM-5 wanted to emphasize the importance of distress about the incongruity for a diagnosis. (The DSM-5 uses the term gender rather than sex to allow for those born with both male and female genitalia to have the condition.)"

    (again, my personal position is closer to this is all "snake oil", but I still find it interesting to explore the human "mind" in conversation .
    (I believe psychology will not equate to medical doctors on their current path, which is what DSM attempts to do.)
    Last edited by Belthazor; November 14th, 2017 at 07:29 PM.

  10. #109
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Going by this definition, it would seem all kinds of things "could" be a disorder?
    By the standards you are setting, ANYTHING "could" be a disorder since one could theoretically have an obsession with anything. If one is obsessed with running, then running "could" be a disorder by your standard. And of course heterosexuality "could" be a disorder along with homosexuality.

    But that is not abiding by the DSM definition. It starts with "A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance" so for "it" to be a disorder, it must be a syndrome of some kind. While an obsessions with running would be a syndrome, running itself is not a syndrome. So by the DSM definition, running is NOT a disorder. And neither is homosexuality or heterosexuality. One can have an obsession with sex with members of the opposite sex or the same sex, but sexual desire itself is not a disorder.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    By the standards you are setting, ANYTHING "could" be a disorder since one could theoretically have an obsession with anything. If one is obsessed with running, then running "could" be a disorder by your standard. And of course heterosexuality "could" be a disorder along with homosexuality.

    But that is not abiding by the DSM definition. It starts with "A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance" so for "it" to be a disorder, it must be a syndrome of some kind. While an obsessions with running would be a syndrome, running itself is not a syndrome. So by the DSM definition, running is NOT a disorder. And neither is homosexuality or heterosexuality. One can have an obsession with sex with members of the opposite sex or the same sex, but sexual desire itself is not a disorder.
    "MY" standard?
    I quoted the third post in this thread citing DSM (and it went unchallenged I believe).
    Then a Huff Post article citing DSMV.

    How is this my standard?

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    "MY" standard?
    I quoted the third post in this thread citing DSM (and it went unchallenged I believe).
    Then a Huff Post article citing DSMV.

    How is this my standard?
    What the DSM forwards is not your standard. And your standard is not the DSM's standard.

    Your standard is that any activity "could" be a disorder (since one could theoretically have an disorder regarding any activity). And it's not the standard that the DSM uses.

    Again, the DSM identifies a disorder as a syndrome. Activities such as eating, running, and sex are not syndromes and it's not true that they "could be" syndromes at some point. It is true that one can develop a syndrome regarding those activities, but if that happens, it does not make the activities themselves syndromes/disorders at that time. So basically something either is or is not a disorder and it's not true that something "could be" a disorder if it does not meet the criteria of a disorder.

    The act of eating is NEVER a disorder even though a person can develop an eating disorder such as anorexia.
    Last edited by mican333; November 15th, 2017 at 07:17 AM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Just a few corrections.
    1) It is not that they(trans) are 40% more likely than straits, it is that of all the trans nearly half attempt suicide.
    2) That number is not in regards to homosexuality at all, rather transgender.
    3) That number is also controlled so as to reflect those who are never recognized as trans. Which means persecution for trans is ruled out. (You can't be persecuted for what is not recognized)
    IE If everyone is mean to you on line, and no one knows you are white, then it isn't because your white that they are mean.. they are probably just ass holes, or maybe your not likeable, or maybe it's opposites day and them being mean is actually them being nice.
    4) The argument I forwarded is not related or directed to homosexuality at all. (that I remember)
    5) I don't think you have accurately reflected my argument. As far as my argument is concerned you have directed it to much at gays. I may or may not spend more time addressing this, but I appreciate your input.
    Good explanation, thank you.

    In addition to #3 however, re an objection being that discrimination/bullying is a primary cause of suicide, we also know that this cannot be true because suicide rates for the general population in the US is only around 4%, and to suggest that the 36% difference is due to discrimination seems to be rather dishonest. As far as I can tell, the only other comparable rate of suicide (of transgender people) is that of Jews during WW2 living under Nazi rule. That level of persecutation is not experienced by transgenders in the modern US. We have transgender role models, politicians, leaders, entertainers, etc. There is no doubt that this group is discriminated against and even bullied and that this is wrong. But they are not unlike other minority groups that are singled out at times by ignorant and hateful people, and they certainly do not experience challenges or persecuation that Jews experienced living under the Nazi boot.

    The other issue to consider, is the homeless rate of transgender people, which is an extraordinary 30% (according to the National Center for Transgender Equality). They are also twice as likely to be living in poverty as the rest of the population. These are all serious issues, and issues that seem to at least somewhat support the idea that transgenderism may in fact, be a mental health issue.
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by APOK
    Good explanation, thank you.

    In addition to #3 however, re an objection being that discrimination/bullying is a primary cause of suicide, we also know that this cannot be true because suicide rates for the general population in the US is only around 4%, and to suggest that the 36% difference is due to discrimination seems to be rather dishonest. As far as I can tell, the only other comparable rate of suicide (of transgender people) is that of Jews during WW2 living under Nazi rule. That level of persecutation is not experienced by transgenders in the modern US. We have transgender role models, politicians, leaders, entertainers, etc. There is no doubt that this group is discriminated against and even bullied and that this is wrong. But they are not unlike other minority groups that are singled out at times by ignorant and hateful people, and they certainly do not experience challenges or persecuation that Jews experienced living under the Nazi boot.

    The other issue to consider, is the homeless rate of transgender people, which is an extraordinary 30% (according to the National Center for Transgender Equality). They are also twice as likely to be living in poverty as the rest of the population. These are all serious issues, and issues that seem to at least somewhat support the idea that transgenderism may in fact, be a mental health issue.
    (Lost track of link for this one) There appears to be some issue with what is being called "discrimination" as well. For example, it is said that they are "denied medical service or suffered delayed treatment", which struck me as very odd. Like who is going to deny say flu vaccine or some such just because they are trans, or even setting a broken bone or something of that kind? Turns out that denial is actually in relation to sex change surgeries, or at least appears to be. Which makes sense, and doesn't really fall into the kind of "discrimination" that I consider to be prejudicial. (see link below)Further they consider things like not having a designated bathroom, or not being allowed into a bathroom of their choice to also be "Prejudicial". Again, not exactly harsh persecution, especially in comparison to something akin to the WWII Jews. Certainly there are some serious discrimination issues going on, but there is IMO illegitimate complaints mixed in, that are treated as serious issues when they should not be.

    From an earlier link..
    https://lexiecannes.com/stats-on-tra...e-and-suicide/

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    This latest one was done by the Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition (MTPC) and The Fenway Institute. Over 450 Massachusetts trans residents were evaluated about the needs of public accommodations and health during the past year.

    A short summary of their findings:

    Overall, 65% of respondents reported discrimination in one or more public accommodation settings in the past 12 months.

    The five most prevalent public accommodations discrimination settings were: transportation, retail, dining, public gathering location, and health care.

    Those who reported public accommodations discrimination in the past 12 months had an 84% increased risk of adverse physical symptoms in the past 30 days and 99% increased risk of emotional symptoms.

    One in five respondents postponed or did not try to get health care in the past year because of prior experiences of mistreatment in health care settings.

    Twenty-eight percent of respondents said they had not seen a doctor in the past year, while 29% reported having to teach their health care provider about transgender health issues.
    Bold emphasis mine.

    Basically, those who can't use the bathroom of their choice, have physical symptoms (whatever that means). That simply doesn't sound like a healthy minded person. Sounds more like an unstable person.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    (Lost track of link for this one) There appears to be some issue with what is being called "discrimination" as well. For example, it is said that they are "denied medical service or suffered delayed treatment", which struck me as very odd. Like who is going to deny say flu vaccine or some such just because they are trans, or even setting a broken bone or something of that kind? Turns out that denial is actually in relation to sex change surgeries, or at least appears to be.
    I don't think so. From your link:

    "One in five respondents postponed or did not try to get health care in the past year because of prior experiences of mistreatment in health care settings.

    Twenty-eight percent of respondents said they had not seen a doctor in the past year, while 29% reported having to teach their health care provider about transgender health issues."


    So a significan number have not seen a doctor at all in the past year.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Certainly there are some serious discrimination issues going on, but there is IMO illegitimate complaints mixed in, that are treated as serious issues when they should not be.
    This argument is primarily based on your opinion (note you even included "IMO" in your argument).

    Whether one has a mental disorder is an objective thing so your opinion that they feel they are discriminated against when you think it's not really a big deal is not really a relevant factor


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Basically, those who can't use the bathroom of their choice, have physical symptoms (whatever that means). That simply doesn't sound like a healthy minded person. Sounds more like an unstable person.
    Again, based on your opinion. I have to ask how would you feel if you could never use a public men's restroom and instead only had access to the ladies room? Do you know that you wouldn't end up feeling some level of physical/emotional distress if that were the case? I would think that not being able to relieve oneself regularly might result in some physical symptoms.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Is there any evidence whatsoever that transgender discrimination causes a 36% increase in suicide rates? That the amount of discrimination that transgenders experience is on par with that experienced by Jews living under Nazi rule?

    If not, then I'm not sure how discrimination is still an issue here. Either there is evidence that it DOES cause such a high increase in the rate, or there is no such evidence. If there is no such evidence, then there is no reason to accept it to be true. If there is such evidence, then it ought to be objective, verifiable, and clear regarding the matter. Perhaps I just missed that evidence?
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  18. #116
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I don't think so.
    You don't think so what?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    This argument is primarily based on your opinion (note you even included "IMO" in your argument).

    Whether one has a mental disorder is an objective thing so your opinion that they feel they are discriminated against when you think it's not really a big deal is not really a relevant factor
    So the world has male and female bathrooms just to screw with trans gender? akin to white and black bathrooms?
    Sure, that is my opinion but it's one based on reason.

    I am making the distinction of legit discrimination. IE getting beat up because your trans. Vs illegitimate "discrimination" based on what the trans THINKS. IE their own opinion, where they feel the world is out to get them through an evil bathroom sign campaign.
    Remember these polls and questions are never observed, they are all from the "honest" assessment of the trans themselves. If you wish to write off opinion on then lets start there and say there is no actual evidence of serious discrimination, according to the standard of rejecting personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Again, based on your opinion. I have to ask how would you feel if you could never use a public men's restroom and instead only had access to the ladies room? Do you know that you wouldn't end up feeling some level of physical/emotional distress if that were the case? I would think that not being able to relieve oneself regularly might result in some physical symptoms.
    I work in construction, so once you make the conscious decision to go in a port-o-potty, you have crossed an line of standard from which there is no return.

    Also, think about this a bit. Bathrooms are primarily for privacy. (hence male and female bathrooms, and why no one gives a **** that they started putting "family" bathrooms) There are plenty of people who will not go in a bathroom that has toilets facing each other out in the open. (though once you join the military or oil field that goes out he window too). Point is, as long as a bathroom is offering privacy, emotional distress caused by a sign on a door or a general expectation of the public is pretty thin skinned, I would argue to the point of reflecting a mental disorder. Especially when those signs were not created to target you specifically.

    As for me personally, I'll go in a "woman's" bathroom.. if I have to and it is private. After I lost my gallbladder this has become an unfortunate reality.

    Point is, your attributing it to "never being able to relieve yourself" is hyperbole.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  19. #117
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Is there any evidence whatsoever that transgender discrimination causes a 36% increase in suicide rates? That the amount of discrimination that transgenders experience is on par with that experienced by Jews living under Nazi rule?

    If not, then I'm not sure how discrimination is still an issue here. Either there is evidence that it DOES cause such a high increase in the rate, or there is no such evidence. If there is no such evidence, then there is no reason to accept it to be true. If there is such evidence, then it ought to be objective, verifiable, and clear regarding the matter. Perhaps I just missed that evidence?
    Of course the burden is on the original argument - that the high suicide rate is evidence of a mental disorder in the group as a whole..

    So is there evidence that 36% of the remaining suicides are due to mental disorders? If not, then one cannot use the argument that 36% increase suicide rate is evidence of a mental disorder in the group as a whole since it's not been supported that 36% are suicidal due to mental disorders.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Of course the burden is on the original argument - that the high suicide rate is evidence of a mental disorder in the group as a whole..

    So is there evidence that 36% of the remaining suicides are due to mental disorders? If not, then one cannot use the argument that 36% increase suicide rate is evidence of a mental disorder in the group as a whole since it's not been supported that 36% are suicidal due to mental disorders.
    The argument, as I understand it, or at least, the one I'd make, is that one reason that seems to support that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is the fact that there is a 40%+ suicide rate for the group. Suicides are almost always a result of some form of mental health issue. Of those who die from suicide, more than 90 percent have a diagnosable mental disorder.
    http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php

    So the connection between suicides and mental health absolutely exists.

    So what is the cause of such an incredibly high rate of suicide in this group? It cannot be discrimination, for reasons I already explained, in addition to the fact that there exists no evidence to support that discrimination does explain the higher rate. That leaves us with only a couple possibilities. One is that transgenderism may be a mental health issue (or mental disorder). Another possibility is that transgenders may be more susceptible to mental health issues (or mental disorders) that non-trans people. If its the former, case settled. If it is the latter, then it demonstrates that in general, transgender people may not be as mentally healthy as non-trans as it would appear that they are affected by more mental health issues than non-trans.

    The other issues to consider, is the 30% homeless rate of transgender people as well as the fact that transgenders are twice as likely to be living in poverty as the rest of the population. These are all serious issues, and issues that seem to at least somewhat support the idea that transgenderism may in fact, be a mental health issue.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; November 15th, 2017 at 11:05 AM.
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  21. #119
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    The argument, as I understand it, or at least, the one I'd make, is that one reason that seems to support that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is the fact that there is a 40%+ suicide rate for the group. Suicides are almost always a result of some form of mental health issue.

    Of those who die from suicide, more than 90 percent have a diagnosable mental disorder.
    http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php

    So the connection between suicides and mental health absolutely exists.

    So what is the cause of such an incredibly high rate of suicide in this group? It cannot be discrimination, for reasons I already explained
    Actually, I don't think you've explained that discrimination can't be a significant cause. You addressed bullying (4%) but did not address the other forms of discrimination that transgendered people uniquely face.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    in addition to the fact that there exists no evidence to support that discrimination does explain the higher rate. That leaves us with only a couple possibilities. One is that transgenderism may be a mental health issue (or mental disorder). Another possibility is that transgenders may be more susceptible to mental health issues (or mental disorders) that non-trans people. If its the former, case settled. If it is the latter, then it demonstrates that in general, transgender people may not be as mentally healthy as non-trans as it would appear that they are affected by more mental health issues than non-trans.
    Those who suffer are more likely to have mental health issues than those who don't suffer. Trauma is certainly a factor in whether one develops a disorder. Serial killers are often abused as children. Pedophiles were often molest themselves as children. And it would stand to reason that growing up in a society where "your kind" was despised and not understood would be very difficult for a person to live under - and if they don't endure direct bullying, it's probably because they had to hide their transgenderism which likewise can be very difficult.

    So the long and short of it is that transgendered people have it tougher than the rest of us due to external circumstances and we don't have a valid "control group" to determine how us "normal" folk would fair if we had to endure similar circumstances.

    So what percentage of the remaining 36% is due, in part at least, external circumstances? 10%? 25%? 50% 100%? Can you answer that question in some supported manner? I know I can't. I'd say at best we can only forward a fairly uneducated guess. So there really is no solid data to discount any particular degree of external influence in the high suicide rate. I'd say at best we can only guess and guesswork is not the basis of valid support.

    -------------------------------

    And back to MT,

    I think there's been some confusion at times so I'm going to start fresh with an argument I know that you have forwarded and have maintained stands and likewise is an argument that I've been challenging.

    Your argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) Suicide is not "normal", and not the result of "healthy" thinking or life styles. (IE any life style that would lead to 50% ish suicide rate should be commonly and easily identifiable as unhealthy).
    2) That external factors are not sufficient or even intuitively causative of it. (The biggest support of this is that those that are not recognized as such also have a supper high rate in the 30-40 range)
    3) Thus, It is the life style and thought processes of the "Trans gender" themselves that are unhealthy and not normal.
    And in response I Challenge to support a claim. you to SUPPORT OR RETRACT that "external factors are not sufficient or even intuitively causative of it"

  22. #120
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Your argument:
    my argument is found in post 52.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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