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Thread: Gay/Transgender

  1. #141
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    I'm not entirely sure I understand. Are you saying that perhaps groups like African-Americans have a lower suicide rate despite being more discriminated against, is that they have better support groups? And that Jews and trans don't have support groups? And if so, why do trans people who say they DO have a support system, have the same or similar suicide rates as those who say they do not have a support system? And how does this support system or lack there of, address the fact that the suicide rate is the same for those who have and have not experienced discrimination?
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Before I respond, I'd like it if you could respond to 2 important points.

    1) The 40*% rate applies to both transgender people who have come out as transgender and may or may not have been discriminated against, but also to those who have NOT come out, and people cannot tell if they are trans, thus have NOT been discriminated against.

    In other words, how can a claim of "the suicide rate is due to discrimination" be true when it is a fact that discrimination entered NO part of the equation for many transgender people (those who haven't come out or identifed themselves to anyone as being trans) YET they still have the same suicide rate?
    For those who don't come out, discrimination is CERTAINLY part of the equation. It's safe to say that the primary reason people don't come out, it's because they are afraid of the consequences and those consequences are very much tied to discrimination. In other words, the primary reason that people don't come out is because of the fear of discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    2) IF it is the case that discrimination is a primary cause of suicide rates, why is it that other minorities have a much smaller suicide rate than the LEAST discriminated race in the US: white people? If it were true that discrimination is such a strong cause of suicidality, then it ought to be the case that those who are actually discriminated against have the higher suicide rates. Yet, this is simply not the case and instead, whites are far more likely to commit suicide than minorities, including blacks. It is important to be consistent here. We cannot on one hand say "Trans people are discriminated against and as a result, have a high suicide rate as the oppressed, minority group" while at the same time say "Black people and other minorities are discriminated against, yet have a lower suicide rate than the least discriminated group, white people." It's logically inconsistent. There is something DIFFERENT about trans people, and it isn't discrimination (because many groups are discriminated against yet there is a different outcome: disparity and inconsistent suicide rates), what is it that is different? Possibly a mental health issue?
    But I should make it clear that it is not my argument that discrimination accounts for the 36%. My argument is that Mts argument that external factors (which would include but is not limited to discrimination) cannot account for the high suicide rate and therefore, via process of elimination, the primary cause must internal and therefore the transgendered generally have an internal problem.

    So using your own argument, if whites have a higher suicide rate than blacks and we remove the element of discrimination, can we conclude that white people are not as mentally healthy as black people? Of course not. If we assume that whites and blacks are more or less the same in regards to mental health, then there has to be external factors to explain the difference that are something other than discrimination. So I'll call those Other External Factors and when combined with the factor of discrimination, the whole thing would be External Factors. And conversely, something that is strictly internal would be known as Internal Factors (and these would typically be mental disorders)

    So putting it mathematically - External Factors (EF) + Internal Factors (IF) = 40% suicide rate.

    And MT's argument would hold that EF is a very low number (let's just say 5 as an example) so going by his argument we would get. 40% suicide rate - 5 EF = 35% IF (as an example of a high number.

    But my argument is that no one has shown that the effect of external factors is low. I'm saying that we don't know how much the external factor contributes. So my formal would be 40% suicide rate - ?EF = ?IF. Since we don't know how much the external effect contributes we don't know how much the internal effect is.

    And besides that, even if we did manage to settle on the percentage that is primarily caused by internal effects, no one has established what the rate needs to be before one can say that ALL transgendered people have a disorder. Even if we want to say that all who attempt suicide have a disorder that is caused by internal effects, what about the 60% who don't attempt suicide. Is there any reason to hold that they are not generally as healthy as anyone else? Not that I know of.

  3. #143
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    To be clear, are you suggesting that the transition itself (either physical or psychological) alleviates the suffering or anxieties? That perhaps going through the process resolves issues, helps the individual, and as a result, brings down the suicide rate?
    I am suggesting that the transitioning is a form of treatment. I am not making a claim regarding its efficacy.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #144
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    For those who don't come out, discrimination is CERTAINLY part of the equation. It's safe to say that the primary reason people don't come out, it's because they are afraid of the consequences and those consequences are very much tied to discrimination. In other words, the primary reason that people don't come out is because of the fear of discrimination.
    But it isn't that "there exists some discrmination" but rather "there exists IDENTICAL discrimination between those who come out and those who do not come out, and that leads to 40% suicide rate."

    If experiencing discrimination is a significant cause for such a high suicide rate, then we can remove "experiencing discrimination" as the cause for those who haven't come out. It must be then replaced with "fear of discrimination." And because the suicide rates are the same for both groups, then both the fear of and experience of are identical in terms of stress that leads to having such a high suicide rate. That doesn't seem reasonble to me. Is there any data that can support that position? That is, the position that "fear of discrimination" is identical to "experience of discrimination" in terms of stress? I'd suspect that "fod" (fear of...) would play a factor, but be far less than "eod" (experience of...).

    But I should make it clear that it is not my argument that discrimination accounts for the 36%. My argument is that Mts argument that external factors (which would include but is not limited to discrimination) cannot account for the high suicide rate and therefore, via process of elimination, the primary cause must internal and therefore the transgendered generally have an internal problem.
    One that seems reasonable to me...

    So using your own argument, if whites have a higher suicide rate than blacks and we remove the element of discrimination, can we conclude that white people are not as mentally healthy as black people?
    Probably not, but we are talking about a much smaller number of variance. I'm sure that culture, discrimination, support groups, values, etc... all factor in and is why we have different values. But none seem to be so out of line disparity wise as the transgender community. Why are they different?

    And besides that, even if we did manage to settle on the percentage that is primarily caused by internal effects, no one has established what the rate needs to be before one can say that ALL transgendered people have a disorder. Even if we want to say that all who attempt suicide have a disorder that is caused by internal effects, what about the 60% who don't attempt suicide.
    IMO, this may be the strongest criticism of the pro-argument.

    We do after all, consider depression to be a mental health issue. Yet only 15% commit suicide. Suicide rates alone don't seem to qualify a property of being (trans, depression, hetero, etc.). We know that even though 85% may not commit suicide, there are other factors that tell us that this is a mental health issue. If 60% of trans don't commit suicide, is it the case then that there are other harmful properties of transgenderism that exist (such as there is for depression)? If so, what are they? If not, then can transgenderism really be considered a mental disorder or mental health issue on the sole grounds that it has a higher suicide rate?

    Would we consider being Jewish being a mental disorder because of the higher suicide rate seen in Nazi controlled EU? No. We know that there were circumstances involved that drove that higher suicide rate (suffer/stress/hopelessness/fear/etc.).

    My final position on this would be then that:

    1) discrimination is unlikely to be the primary cause of such a high suicide rate
    2) it is not accurate to categorize a property of being (such as trasngenderism) as a mental disorder based on suicidality alone (unless of course we were talking about something like a 75-90%+ rate).

    There seem to be other reasons (than discrimination) for the higher rate of suicide in the trans community AND there ought to be more reasons to consider transgenderism as mental disorder other than suicide rate itself.

    I don't know the answer. This was more exploratory than anything else for me.
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  6. #145
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    My final position on this would be then that:

    1) discrimination is unlikely to be the primary cause of such a high suicide rate
    2) it is not accurate to categorize a property of being (such as trasngenderism) as a mental disorder based on suicidality alone (unless of course we were talking about something like a 75-90%+ rate).

    There seem to be other reasons (than discrimination) for the higher rate of suicide in the trans community AND there ought to be more reasons to consider transgenderism as mental disorder other than suicide rate itself.
    Agreed. DSM usually have a number of "traits that qualify" a disorder and a person has to have a certain number of them to "have" a disorder. As in, there could be nine qualifiers and you have to have five or more to be diagnosed with whatever.

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    I don't know the answer. This was more exploratory than anything else for me.
    Also agreed. Interesting points on both sides of this conversation though.

    ----------------------

    I believe I promised Mican a number a posts ago I would support the "craziness" of DSM. I rather tongue in cheek said everyone reading this probably had a disorder of some sort. So what does DSM say is a disorder and how did they "decide" what is a disorder?


    https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...riteria-051813
    "The NIMH estimates that 26.2 percent of all adults will experience some kind of mental disorder within a given year and that 46.4 percent will experience some kind of mental disorder within their lifetimes."*
    "The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently released statistics stating that an estimated one in five American children and teens has a diagnosable mental disorder,"

    Now that is over 1/4 of the population every year! And 1/2 of ALL humans!!
    "The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently released statistics stating that an estimated one in five American children and teens has a diagnosable mental disorder,"


    And how did DSM come to these conclusions (same source)?

    " Today, the American Psychiatric Association released the much-anticipated fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a 1,000-page revision 20 years in the making.*
    "The book has come under heavy fire from mental health professionals, including the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), which has distanced itself from the DSM-5 because of its tendency to define disorders based on symptoms, not scientific data."

    Note the last three words "not scientific data" (emphasis mine).


    Maybe I was right on the mark with the "everyone " has a disorder after all (same source):

    “I've always preached that everyone is crazy, it's just a matter of degree, duration, and timing,” said Rob Dobrenski, a psychologist in New York City"

    "Psychiatrist Allen Frances chaired the task force for the DSM-IV, but now takes an entirely different view of the psychiatric community and the DSM-5.*
    In his new book, Saving Normal: An Insider’s Revolt Against Out-of-Control Psychiatric Diagnosis, DSM-5, Big Pharma, and the Medicalization of Ordinary Life, he argues that normal life events are now being branded as mental disorders, while at the same time, people who desperately need help are not getting it."*


    Psychology Today takes an even dimmer view than I:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...great-dsm-hoax
    "Many people, including thousands of mental health professionals, have pushed back. But too few are willing to call the whole thing the hoax it is."
    "The DSM is a disease-mongering naming game where collections of disparate painful thoughts and feelings and unwanted or distressing behaviors are given profit-seeking labels. That is all the DSM does."


    So DSM defines a "disorder" as (same source):

    “A Mental Disorder is a health condition characterized by significant dysfunction in an individual’s cognitions, emotions, or behaviors that reflects a disturbance in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.”

    So, according to DSM, if being a homosexual (or what have you) was the cause of "significant dysfunction...(etc)", it could be a disorder. It certainly doesn't say "everyone" that is homosexual (or pick any human oddity) HAS to be a disorder, only when it causes dysfunction.



    Now for Psyc Tod to actually call DSM a HOAX, is cause for concern:
    " Is the proposed definition of a “mental disorder” a truer definition than the previous one? No, it is the same hoax: and in fact the creators of the DSM blithely announce that they are unconcerned about whether or not their definition of a “mental disorder” is true. They explain that “The diagnosis of a mental disorder should have clinical utility,” not that it should be true. There you go. Since they do not mean by clinical utility that a diagnosis be either valid or reliable, they must mean that it be profitable"


    Another telling, but sad comment on the current state of DSM (same source):

    "In fact, tellingly enough, as a prospective client you do not to meet their own proposed criteria in order to receive treatment. They explain: “Clinicians may thus encounter individuals who do not meet full criteria for a mental disorder, but who demonstrate a clear need for treatment or care. The fact that some individuals do not show all symptoms indicative of a diagnosis in these individuals should not be used to justify limiting their access to appropriate care.”
    Wow! Isn’t that a clever sentence? Orwell would have loved it. This translates as: “We say that we are using this manual to diagnose you but since our labeling scheme is a hoax and our criteria are trumped up to begin with, it certainly doesn’t matter to us whether you meet them or not—we are happy to medicate you simply by virtue of you having walked through the door.”


    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-worst-changes
    This is the saddest moment in my 45 year career of studying, practicing, and teaching psychiatry. The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association has given its final approval to a deeply flawed DSM 5 containing many changes that seem clearly unsafe and scientifically unsound. My best advice to clinicians, to the press, and to the general public - be skeptical and don't follow DSM 5 blindly down a road likely to lead to massive over-diagnosis and harmful over-medication


    If I need to go further, no problem, just let me know...
    Last edited by Belthazor; November 16th, 2017 at 06:06 PM.

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  8. #146
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    First, let's be clear. Your conclusion is that being transgender is a mental disorder, no?
    Yea, that is correct. Two lines of argument for that, some overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    I have heard your theory. I have not seen you support your theory other than claiming it is obvious. Just because you claim it is obvious, does not make it so. You have a compelling theory, but it is really just your opinion at this point.
    Yea, I suppose.
    Kinda like, just because you see a dead guy with a bullet hole in his head, doesn't mean he died from gunshot. That would just be some random opinion that can be dismissed as anyone feels.

    A bit cheeky Look If a 50% suicide rate is not a strong indication, then would 100% be? Why or why not?
    And if not, then why should we accept arguments offered here that rely on a 1-7% change to indicate relation?
    Again there are two powerful data points. The first is that this rate is specific to trans,and that this rate is unchanged when they are not recognized as trans.
    I am at a loss to see how that doesn't narrow things down at least. Are you seriously saying it's just my opinion that they are related?

    What link am I failing to establish, or is not apparent?
    The alternative and the major line offered is discrimination but there much more reason to think that is not the case, than any case that here is.
    You will see people quote bare facts without an ability to correlate in that case, so if you feel that is what I'm doing, you are not choosing a "superior" argument.
    Take for example micans last link. In regards to discrimination laws about same sex marriage and it being related to a decrease in teen suicide. They have no clue why or how they are related. There is no line of causation. However in the argument I am making the causation is clear. They become depressed because of their Body Dismorphia. They feel stressed because of their Transgener mindset. (Ie thinking they are a man in a womans body). That is as direct a link as you can get.. or else. what is? seriously give me an alternative here.


    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    Second, your premise regarding the nature of physiological disorders is false. Disorder is not defined by argumentation. The DSM is not merely a set of sophist arguments that are intended to define mental conditions. You have just sort of invented this definition for disorder and based your conclusion from this faulty definition. Regarding reality and transgender, I do not believe such a break in reality exists. The tg person is fully aware of their situation. There is a disorder which defines a person who has an associative break in reality regarding their sex, but it is not called tg. Gender Dysphoria is already a disorder
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria and applies to transgender people prior to transition.
    I actually offered support for that point(post 52). So it certainly wasn't me making it up.
    As to a disorder, my argument was pretty clear and I don't see a rebuttal other than the false claim that I made it up.
    Is it that you disagree that the objective metric of truthfully seeing reality should be considered relevant to mental health?
    or do you hold that a persons perception of reality can be completely detached from reality, and still be "sane", or "of sound mental health"?

    (1)Further, yes the DSM is a bunch of sophists arguing what should be included and what shouldn't. This field of science is not like many others, and as pointed out (and supported earlier) there is no base standard for what is "normal" behavior. (again referrer post 52).
    -(1)Support/reasoning-- The biggest evidence of this, is that there is a stunning lack of research on this topic before the "ruling" came out. All of the studies I have seen, and just about every side has said that there is a significant lack of science on this topic. All kinds of conflicting results can be found in the studies that have been done.
    That certainly sounds a lot more like sophists making **** up, than science leading a conclusion on the part of DSM. Wouldn't you agree?
    If not, exactly what robust science was done to produce the DSM? Because I'm not finding it.

    Pick any "science", and any topic, and if you were to find there to be a "consensus" and a "conclusion" like the DSM with similar lack of science, you would reject their position as pure opinion and politics, and in any other medical field such an activity when it leads to negative consequences would be grounds for malpractice lawsuits. I mean would you have an operation when there was no scientific evidence that it helps your condition? How about one where they cut your penis off? .. because that is what hey are doing to kids.

    It really needs to sink in(not that you are hard headed, just that it is a serious point), they are chemically castrating children based on this lack of science. That sir is down right sick, and appalling. Even if I am 100% wrong, even if the very rosiest of scenarios is actually true. As a procedural implementation, it is completely irresponsible at this time. Like cleaning a gun before you checked to see if it was loaded. Sure, if it isn't your going to be fine, but it's irresponsible.

    That said, the rosiest picture is not the case. There is evidence of serious problems with that kind of treatment. So that makes it even more horrifying.
    Yes, you should view this as something that Hitlers Germany would torture jews with rather then a legit medical treatment, or a well reasoned and scientifically supported position of professionals. This is quackery masquerading as "professional opinion", with inconsistencies everywhere. I would argue stemming from the inability of the profession to recognize or identify "normal" to begin with.

    Finally, let me remind you of something. The medical field is completely o.k. with subjecting it's patience to all sorts of torture that is and should be easily recognizable as torture and inhuman.
    If you have the time, look up twilight sleep, and it's use for labor. The medical institutes idea of "If you don't remember... it doesn't count". Characterized by "inhuman suffering".
    It is depicted like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jkvT0DqIRk

    But went down more like this
    https://rewire.news/article/2009/09/...thing-choices/
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    In 1958, an
    article headlined "Cruelty in Maternity Wards" ran in Ladies’ Home Journal, and described in
    detail the "tortures that go on in modern delivery rooms." A flood of
    women sent the magazine their own horror stories. "I’ve seen patients with
    no skin on their wrists from fighting the straps," a nurse from Canada
    wrote.
    http://www.babygaga.com/15-crazy-tru...wilight-sleep/
    Can't find the original documentary.. but it started in the 30's and lasted till about the 60's. at least..

    https://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth/twilight-sleep/


    Point is. Medical consensus, prolific use =/= Healthy treatment.


    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    And this goes to my point. You have drawn up this picture which distorts from the meaning of disorder. Yes, someone who is transgender likely also suffers (or suffered) from a disorder. Trangenderism, itself, is more like a therapy to help those who are suffering from it.
    No, transition surgery and treatment is a way to treat Transgenders body dismorphia. However Transgender ism is a body dismorphia thing.
    They are men trapped in woman's bodies (IE they don't have a penis and they think they really really should have one). (see links below)

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    he suicide rates you are describing are not related to the actual transition (i.e. from transgenderism) but from a combination of factors that range from the underlying mental issues to other environmental factors on top of any of the other mental health issues people may have in general (i.e. depression). To make an analogy, transgender is a condition which can be part of treating GD or Sexual Identity Disorder (SID). Kind of like a band aid is a treatment for a cut. You wouldn't call the band aid an injury, would you? You could claim that a large percentage of people who wear band aids also get infections (at a much higher rate than the general population). However, you still would not claim the band aid is causing the infection, would you?
    I think there is some misunderstanding in terms here.

    Transgender does not refer to the physical state of the person, or the current treatment they are receiving. It refers to their mindset of thinking they are a boy in a girls body, or a girl in a boys body.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth; especially :of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth
    https://adaa.org/understanding-anxie...c-disorder-bdd
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    BDD is a body-image disorder characterized by persistent and intrusive preoccupations with an imagined or slight defect in one's appearance.
    By definition, Trans gender is a body dismorphic issue.

    That is why it is argued to be a disorder, and why we should not be surprised when this group exhibits one of the major symptoms of body dis-morphia ... which is attempted suicide, and extreme surgery.

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    People with severe BDD may avoid leaving their homes altogether and may even have thoughts of suicide or make a suicide attempt.
    Now the point will be made that the definition of gender dysphoria, ad BDD are different. But really they are the same thing only with the added definition of "this is not a mental illness". The reason they are the same is because gener dysphoria, is directly related to the difference between mind and body.
    Which seems very much like a sophist sitting around a table making arguments as to what should and shouldn't be a "mental illness". (re argument above regarding lack of science behind that designation).
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    I'm not entirely sure I understand. Are you saying that perhaps groups like African-Americans have a lower suicide rate despite being more discriminated against, is that they have better support groups?
    Not necessarily groups but support structures than enable coping and survival. Isn't that what your source concluded?

    ---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    And that Jews and trans don't have support groups?
    That was just my poke at it. Jewish communities and their connections were systematically dismantled during Nazi rule.

    ---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    And if so, why do trans people who say they DO have a support system, have the same or similar suicide rates as those who say they do not have a support system?
    Do they? and does any such support system have the same efficacy as compared to that of African Americans (as was concluded by your source)? Again, we're talking about a comparatively small population.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    But it isn't that "there exists some discrmination" but rather "there exists IDENTICAL discrimination between those who come out and those who do not come out, and that leads to 40% suicide rate."

    If experiencing discrimination is a significant cause for such a high suicide rate, then we can remove "experiencing discrimination" as the cause for those who haven't come out. It must be then replaced with "fear of discrimination." And because the suicide rates are the same for both groups, then both the fear of and experience of are identical in terms of stress that leads to having such a high suicide rate.
    No it's not identical. In your prior post you said:

    "It's 50% for trans people who tell everyone, 40% for those who tell ONLY their closest friends, and 33% for those who tell no one." So those who tell no one are 2/3 as suicidal as those who tell everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    One that seems reasonable to me...
    And I disagree. But our varying opinions are not really relevant. What's relevant is support or lack of support. And I've seen no support that shows that external factors don't play a significant role in the suicide rate. And while we are focused on direct discrimination, that is only 1 of the external factors and therefore even downplaying that doesn't really support that external factors in general are not a significant factor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Probably not, but we are talking about a much smaller number of variance. I'm sure that culture, discrimination, support groups, values, etc... all factor in and is why we have different values.
    And likewise factor into the odds of one being suicidal. That's my point. Discrimination is ONE factor and if it were the only factor, then basically we would have a valid argument saying that white people are less mentally stable. But of course since there are many factors besides discrimination, we can assume that because of other variables it's reasonable to hold that various external factors likely play into the differing suicide rate. And one can apply the same reasoning to transgender suicide rate. And I'm not saying that these external variable account for the full 40%. I'm saying that no one has presented any evidence showing how much of a factor these externals play. Even if we nail down the exact influence of discrimination (which we have not, btw), that still leaves the unknown variable of other external effects.

    So the position that external factors do not play a significant role in the suicide rate has not been supported and therefor one cannot use deductive reasoning to hold that the cause is primarily due to internal factors.

    To put it in a formula 40% suicide rate - ? External Factors = ? Internal Factors.



    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    We do after all, consider depression to be a mental health issue. Yet only 15% commit suicide. Suicide rates alone don't seem to qualify a property of being (trans, depression, hetero, etc.). We know that even though 85% may not commit suicide, there are other factors that tell us that this is a mental health issue. If 60% of trans don't commit suicide, is it the case then that there are other harmful properties of transgenderism that exist (such as there is for depression)? If so, what are they? If not, then can transgenderism really be considered a mental disorder or mental health issue on the sole grounds that it has a higher suicide rate?
    I would argue that transgenderism cannot be considered a mental disorder because if X is a mental disorder then EVERYONE who has X has a mental disorder. For example, ALL schizophrenics have a mental disorder and if they were all diagnosed accurately, it would be found that they all had some condition that fits the professional definition of a disorder. But in this debate, there's been no evidence presented that 60% of transgendered people would be shown to have a disorder if they were diagnosed accurately. Pointing out the 40% do have some kind of problem is not evidence that the other 60% have a problem as well.

    Really, it seems based on little more than pure assumption to hold that a 40% suicide rate means that the whole of a group has a problem. I think a much more reasonable assumption that 40% rate is an indication that transgendered are more susceptible to having a disorder. And that assumption is based on the exact same evidence that MT is using to argue that the entire group has a disorder.

    Wouldn't you agree that the assumption I forwarded is more reasonable? And if so, then MT's argument can be discarded short of evidence that really does show that 100% of transgendered people have a disorder.



    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    1) discrimination is unlikely to be the primary cause of such a high suicide rate
    2) it is not accurate to categorize a property of being (such as trasngenderism) as a mental disorder based on suicidality alone (unless of course we were talking about something like a 75-90%+ rate).

    There seem to be other reasons (than discrimination) for the higher rate of suicide in the trans community AND there ought to be more reasons to consider transgenderism as mental disorder other than suicide rate itself.
    I'm not arguing that discrimination is the primary reason. I'm arguing that no one has supported the external factors (which would include but is not limited to discrimination) are not a significant factor in the suicide rate. And if there are more reasons to consider transgenderism a disorder, it is up to whoever arguing that it is to present it. But as i said, if transgenderism is a disorder then EVERY transgendered person has some kind of identifier that would show that he/she has a disorder. If even one transgendered person does not have an identifiable disorder, then it cannot be said that transgenderism is itself A disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; November 17th, 2017 at 02:35 PM.

  11. #149
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Which seems very much like a sophist sitting around a table making arguments as to what should and shouldn't be a "mental illness". (re argument above regarding lack of science behind that designation).
    Quick question. Do you believe astronomy is based on science?
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    Quick question. Do you believe astronomy is based on science?
    sure
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    MT, I asked that you support that "external factors are not sufficient or even intuitively causative of it"

    And outside of this thread, you provided a portion of an argument that you hold provided support. So I will use that as offered support (so support has been offered).

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Thus, it should be clear how suicide is the highest sign of expression of internal "stress", and that stress is directly caused by the transgender mindset. IE, the idea that gender doesn't align with reality. While you have pointed to external pressures such as bullying. It remains unqualified, and more weight should be given to the serious concerns of sexual abuse, and abnormal development.
    Keep in mind that I challenged you to show that EXTERNAL FACTORS are not a primary cause. So just waving away ONE external factor, even if it was justified (which it isn't because saying it's not quantified means that it's relevance could be huge), that's just ONE external factor and therefore you have not addressed the influence of other external factors. And in fact, your argument seems to feature another one - sexual abuse. Obviously that's an external factor. And there are many others to consider besides just those two - I'm sure many that neither of us have considered. So this does not equate to an argument showing that external factors are not particularly relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Rather most suicides are linked to mental illness, and in the case of transgender we know what that illness is.
    If you mean the "illness" is transgenderism, this is simply begging the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Further, there is evidence that passing for the other sex does not "fix" the suicide rate, which supports my point, and undermines yours.
    I do not see how this supports the notion that external factors are not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Finally, there is an apparent international element to the study you site. (CCC) This link leads me to question to what extent the claim can be accepted for American suicide rate, because the discrimination is very different then in say india, where they have forced marriages, and refused education.
    Question what you like. But if you are going to argue that external elements are not relevant, you will need to provide something precise.

    ------------------------------

    And here's a question (and as I've said in the past that questions are not arguments, I won't be mad if you choose to not answer my question on that basis so answer only if you want to). Do you think it's possible for a transgendered person to take a battery of psychological tests and have the results show that they don't have any psychological problems (as "problems" are defined by the professional psychological community)?
    Last edited by mican333; Today at 10:08 AM.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Mican, I see no reason to engage with you further, until you can recognize that I supported my case.
    I am not going to skip you addressing post 52 directly.

    -previous post edited, and response deleted-
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I guess whatever it takes for you to not quote and directly address post 52.
    Sigh...
    Round and round the mulberry bush.
    What are you talking about? I took the bolded section of post 52 that you gave me and responded to every single word. Here is the section of post 52 that you bolded.

    "Thus, it should be clear how suicide is the highest sign of expression of internal "stress", and that stress is directly caused by the transgender mindset. IE, the idea that gender doesn't align with reality. While you have pointed to external pressures such as bullying. It remains unqualified, and more weight should be given to the serious concerns of sexual abuse, and abnormal development. (AA) Rather most suicides are linked to mental illness, and in the case of transgender we know what that illness is. (AAA) (BBB)Further, there is evidence that passing for the other sex does not "fix" the suicide rate, which supports my point, and undermines yours. This is "evidence" against your unquantified claim, and quantifies the support for my side. Finally, there is an apparent international element to the study you site. (CCC) This link leads me to question to what extent the claim can be accepted for American suicide rate, because the discrimination is very different then in say india, where they have forced marriages, and refused education."

    Did I miss any of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I will gladly admit that I have not shown the external factor of color preference to not be relevant to this debate.
    However the idea that an argument FOR a specific factor being the cause of the disparity, and the evidence offered for it. It is not necessary to make an argument to exclude all logically possible others.
    It is if that's the very thing that one is arguing. You cannot say that no external factors are relevant without addressing all of the external factors and their relevance. Perhaps one can make a pretty good list of relevant factors and be forgiven if there may be some not accounted for, but the fact is you haven't even addressed all of the factors that I presented in this debate and just waved off bullying. That's ONE which is a far cry from a complete or semi-complete list.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The pro argument is an argument against other explanations as a consequence.
    So the entire argument is an answer to that challenge. Not simply one line.
    You can certainly argue that the argument that external factors are a primary cause is invalid because external factors are not a primary cause, but that does not mean that you don't have to support your claim that external factors are not a primary cause.

    And btw, if you don't support that external factors are not a primary cause, it doesn't mean that the other side is right. If neither of us show that external factors are or are not significant, then their significance remains unknown.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What we have is no other factor is being offered as having explanatory power over the disparity.
    So basically there is no valid alternative to the argument I have offered.
    Argument from ignorance fallacy. Being unaware of valid alternatives to your argument is not evidence that such alternatives do not exist.

    Really, that seems to be the basis of your argument regarding external factors. Put into a logic chain, we get:

    1. No one has presented evidence that external factors are significant
    2. Therefore I have no evidence that external factors are significant
    3. Therefore it is accepted that external factors are not significant
    4. Since external factors are not significant, the only viable alternative is that the problems are caused by internal factors (problems with the people themselves)
    5. Therefore the suicide rate can be attributed primary to internal factors (which would be valid support that the suicides are primarily caused by mental disorders).

    That seems to be your argument (and feel free to make some alterations to the logic chain to better describe your argument if you don't think I have it quite right). And it fails at the bridge between 2 and 3. You not having evidence that X is true is not evidence that X is false.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    In regards to not being identified, what that means is that it narrows those causes down to internal ones. Internal perceptions, as opposed to external pressures based on recognition.
    As far as I can tell, the external factors offered in this thread fail to have explanatory power as they are all recognition based.
    I believe that this is likewise engaging the argument from ignorance fallacy (lack of evidence that external factors having explanatory powers means that such things don't exist) so I'd say my above response covers this as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I guess you can answer what you like as well. I was forwarding a concern about your source. If you don't feel like addressing it or clarifying it. You can skip the commentary.
    As you don't feel like addressing them, i'll consider your support withdrawn.
    My support? I am challenging you to support something.

    I'm not trying to support that external factors are significant. I'm challenging you to support that they are not. Saying that I need to support the opposite of what I challenged you to support is shifting the burden.

    ---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Mican, I see no reason to engage with you further, until you can recognize that I supported my case.
    I am not going to skip you addressing post 52 directly.

    -previous post edited, and response deleted-
    My post 151 is entirely made of my responses to the portion of post 52 that you offered as support. So I have both addressed post 52 and acknowledged the offered support.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    sure
    Ok. How about the issues dealing with the planets? What makes a planet? Is Pluto a planet or not? These are issues decided by scientists in the field of astronomy, no? It is part of a scientific discussion on how to categorize objects in space. Is astronomy just a group of sophists now? Just because it is a science does not mean every issue is handled via the scientific method per se. When it comes to toxonomy, there may be broad disagreement, but the discussion is grounded in the evidence and the known science. Psychology, at the level we are discussing it, is no different. The DSM is a diagnostic guide which is intended to classify mental disorders. These discussions are largely based on the known science. To claim that the definition of mental disorder is merely a sophist exercise is without basis and shows something like a lack of understanding regarding the scientific field of psychology in general. To date, the scientific community that makes up psychological research does not believe transgenderism is a mental disorder. However, they do believe that the underlying causes do meet that criteria. Again, transgenderism, as it is approached from a clinical perspective, outside the pop definition you may get from a common dictionary, is prescriptive. It is, in and of itself, simply not a mental disorder. I've often noted in these threads that one of the issues with things like making laws around transgender issues is that there is no legal definition of what transgender is. How can we, for example, make a law about transgendered bathroom use when we have no legal means of defining a transgender person? What we do have is clinical definitions for a group of disorders which afflict most people who are transgender. Why do you feel the need to explicitly state transgender as a disorder on top of that? Such a movement seems inherently political and/or ideologically motivated. The question we should be asking is whether transgenderism helps people who are afflicted by these disorders. The suicide rate is interesting, but does not explain whether someone actively in identifying as transgender increases the suicide rate when compared to the population of people who carry one of the underlying disorders. So, if the suicide rate for transgender people is 50%, but is 65% for all people with the underlying disorders, then we'd say that transgenderism has some efficacy in treating the underlying disorder. That is a big if and I'm not arguing one way or another because I do not believe the research for this exists yet.
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Ok. How about the issues dealing with the planets? What makes a planet? Is Pluto a planet or not? These are issues decided by scientists in the field of astronomy, no? It is part of a scientific discussion on how to categorize objects in space. Is astronomy just a group of sophists now? Just because it is a science does not mean every issue is handled via the scientific method per se. When it comes to toxonomy, there may be broad disagreement, but the discussion is grounded in the evidence and the known science. Psychology, at the level we are discussing it, is no different. The DSM is a diagnostic guide which is intended to classify mental disorders. These discussions are largely based on the known science. To claim that the definition of mental disorder is merely a sophist exercise is without basis and shows something like a lack of understanding regarding the scientific field of psychology in general. To date, the scientific community that makes up psychological research does not believe transgenderism is a mental disorder. However, they do believe that the underlying causes do meet that criteria. Again, transgenderism, as it is approached from a clinical perspective, outside the pop definition you may get from a common dictionary, is prescriptive. It is, in and of itself, simply not a mental disorder. I've often noted in these threads that one of the issues with things like making laws around transgender issues is that there is no legal definition of what transgender is. How can we, for example, make a law about transgendered bathroom use when we have no legal means of defining a transgender person? What we do have is clinical definitions for a group of disorders which afflict most people who are transgender. Why do you feel the need to explicitly state transgender as a disorder on top of that? Such a movement seems inherently political and/or ideologically motivated. The question we should be asking is whether transgenderism helps people who are afflicted by these disorders. The suicide rate is interesting, but does not explain whether someone actively in identifying as transgender increases the suicide rate when compared to the population of people who carry one of the underlying disorders. So, if the suicide rate for transgender people is 50%, but is 65% for all people with the underlying disorders, then we'd say that transgenderism has some efficacy in treating the underlying disorder. That is a big if and I'm not arguing one way or another because I do not believe the research for this exists yet.
    In general, astronomy is pretty good science, the definition argument for planets notwithstanding. It is a curious conversation with items like does it clear a path of debris in it's orbit?
    That conversation isn't much like, is there liquid water on Titan? The former is just doing the human thing, trying to categorize everything. The latter is actual science. Observation, hypothesis, testing, peer review.

 

 
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