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Thread: Gay/Transgender

  1. #181
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And "IF one" does feel distressed about being transgendered?
    Then one could make the case that they are suffering from a dysphoria.

  2. #182
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And "IF one" does feel distressed about being transgendered?
    It's important to be clear about the source of the distress. Based on your statement, it seems like you're saying that the person's distress is specifically about their being transgendered (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, and that's a bad thing.") Could you clarify that this is indeed what you mean and not that the direct source of the distress may be influences other than simply "being transgendered" (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, what will my family/friends think?")

  3. #183
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    It's important to be clear about the source of the distress. Based on your statement, it seems like you're saying that the person's distress is specifically about their being transgendered (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, and that's a bad thing.") Could you clarify that this is indeed what you mean and not that the direct source of the distress may be influences other than simply "being transgendered" (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, what will my family/friends think?")
    Certainly there are all kinds of other distress, but that is not what I was talking about was it? What I said (in response to Mican) was "Originally Posted by Belthazor And "IF one" does feel distressed about being transgendered?"
    I left no room for other distress.

    Look, my point is most anything can be a disorder in DSM-V and I am just playing along with the criteria to prove it. I believe the book is deeply flawed, and yes, I have read some of it. As I told Mican some many posts ago, when the normal grieving of the loss of a loved one can be a disorder, the term disorder looses a lot of meaning.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-worst-changes
    2) Normal grief will become Major Depressive Disorder, thus medicalizing and trivializing our expectable and necessary emotional reactions to the loss of a loved one and substituting pills and superficial medical rituals for the deep consolations of family, friends, religion, and the resiliency that comes with time and the acceptance of the limitations of life.

    Or how eating can be a disorder (same source)
    5) Excessive eating 12 times in 3 months is no longer just a manifestation of gluttony and the easy availability of really great tasting food. DSM 5 has instead turned it into a psychiatric illness called Binge Eating Disorder.

    Or if you have paid any attention to the overmedication of children (same source)
    1) Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder: DSM 5 will turn temper tantrums into a mental disorder- a puzzling decision based on the work of only one research group. We have no idea whatever how this untested new diagnosis will play out in real life practice settings, but my fear is that it will exacerbate, not relieve, the already excessive and inappropriate use of medication in young children " *

    There is also a disorder for things that don't quite fit in any other category. So kinda anything "can" be a disorder, like being transgendered "can" be a disorder according to DSM-V.


    *Me: "One study, really? That makes a whole new diagnosis?!!
    APA: "Yup, that is some real science there buddy"
    Last edited by Belthazor; December 22nd, 2017 at 04:51 PM.

  4. #184
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look, my point is most anything can be a disorder in DSM-V and I am just playing along with the criteria to prove it. I believe the book is deeply flawed, and yes, I have read some of it. As I told Mican some many posts ago, when the normal grieving of the loss of a loved one can be a disorder, the term disorder looses a lot of meaning.
    I doubt the DSM is referring to NORMAL grieving as a disorder. To put it in layman's terms, a disorder is a problem that someone has so of course a mental disorder is a mental problems. If someone grieves the loss of a loved one in a NORMAL fashion, then what the person is doing is natural, expected, and should not be considered a problem/disorder.

    On the other hand, if someone engages in ABNORMAL grieving, such as still grieving intensely for too long or becoming suicidal and so on, then they have a problem and then their grieving could justifiably be considered a disorder.

    So I fully agree that grieving CAN BE a disorder which is quite different than saying that normal grieving is a disorder.

    I'd say this logic applies to the rest of your points so I won't respond further but to say that I agree that practically anything can be a disorder. One can develop eating habits that are acutely harmful to that person and uncontrollable. I would say that that qualifies as a disorder.

    --------------------------

    But as I said earlier, one does not need to appeal to external experts to debate this issue. I think we can all agree, without citing any external sources, that a disease/disorder is something that causes one significant problems. And as I argued, no one has shown that every transgendered person has a disorder which is what would be required if one is to say that transgenderism itself is a disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; December 23rd, 2017 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #185
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I doubt the DSM is referring to NORMAL grieving as a disorder. To put it in layman's terms, a disorder is a problem that someone has so of course a mental disorder is a mental problems. If someone grieves the loss of a loved one in a NORMAL fashion, then what the person is doing is natural, expected, and should not be considered a problem/disorder.
    This is an incredibly odd comment since you previously approved of Psyc Today as a valid source. The author of this particular article:
    " Allen Frances, M.D., was the chair of the DSM-IV Task Force and of the department of psychiatry at Duke University School of Medicine, Durham, NC. He is currently a professor emeritus at Duke."

    He was very clear in his assessment so I will quote it again:
    "2) Normal grief will become Major Depressive Disorder, thus medicalizing and trivializing our expectable and necessary emotional reactions to the loss of a loved one and substituting pills and superficial medical rituals for the deep consolations of family, friends, religion, and the resiliency that comes with time and the acceptance of the limitations of life."
    (emphasis mine)

    So he was CLEARLY talking about "normal" grieving.

    ---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But as I said earlier, one does not need to appeal to external experts to debate this issue. I think we can all agree, without citing any external sources, that a disease/disorder is something that causes one significant problems. And as I argued, no one has shown that every transgendered person has a disorder which is what would be required if one is to say that transgenderism itself is a disorder.
    Yes, you keep saying that.
    But by the criteria offered (by you and DSM-V) if being transgendered was the cause of "distress" or significant problems then it is a disorder (for that person) and you have given no reason that ALL transgendered would have to suffer from it for any to have it.

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  7. #186
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    "2) Normal grief will become Major Depressive Disorder, thus medicalizing and trivializing our expectable and necessary emotional reactions to the loss of a loved one and substituting pills and superficial medical rituals for the deep consolations of family, friends, religion, and the resiliency that comes with time and the acceptance of the limitations of life."
    (emphasis mine)

    So he was CLEARLY talking about "normal" grieving.
    But I don't see where anyone has said the normal grieving is a disorder. In fact, he said "will become" as in he's predicting that in the future something like this will happen which would indicate that it hasn't happened at this time.

    And you do need to provide a link to whatever source you are quoting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Yes, you keep saying that.
    And I'm waiting to see if someone has a rebuttal to it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But by the criteria offered (by you and DSM-V) if being transgendered was the cause of "distress" or significant problems then it is a disorder (for that person)
    Then you are completely misinterpreting my argument. I do not argue that if an aspect of a person causes that person distress, that aspect qualifies as a disorder. In fact, I argue the opposite.

    Eating is not a disorder despite the fact that a person can have a disorder related to eating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    and you have given no reason that ALL transgendered would have to suffer from it for any to have it.
    Logic plainly dictates that if X is a disorder then everyone who has X has a disorder.

    And conversely, if even one person has X but does not have a disorder, then X cannot be considered a disorder.
    Last edited by mican333; December 27th, 2017 at 09:30 AM.

  8. #187
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I don't see where anyone has said the normal grieving is a disorder. In fact, he said "will become" as in he's predicting that in the future something like this will happen which would indicate that it hasn't happened at this time.

    And you do need to provide a link to whatever source you are quoting.
    EXACTLY, "will become" because of the way DSM-V is written! By the chair of DSM-IV.

    My apologies, but it I did say I was repeating my last post where the Psyc Today link was included, but here it is again:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-worst-changes.

    ---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then you are completely misinterpreting my argument. I do not argue that if an aspect of a person causes that person distress, that aspect qualifies as a disorder. In fact, I argue the opposite.

    Eating is not a disorder despite the fact that a person can have a disorder related to eating.
    And I never said being transgendered WAS a disorder, only that by DSM-V criteria it could be a disorder for a given transgendered person.

    Not to mention (ok, I mentioning it but I like humor in arguments) in post 184 you say:
    "I'd say this logic applies to the rest of your points so I won't respond further but to say that I agree that practically anything can be a disorder. "

    And I agree to the latter point of yours. According to DSM-V, almost anything can be a disorder. you just have the caveat of the transgendered for some reason not qualifying as "practically anything"??

  9. #188
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    EXACTLY, "will become" because of the way DSM-V is written! By the chair of DSM-IV.
    Actually, I find this to be off-topic to any argument that I am making. If I were using the DSM as support for my argument, then questioning the DSM would be relevant to my argument. But I'm not referencing them directly.

    In fact, I've clearly stated that we don't need to do that in a prior post. To repeat:

    But as I said earlier, one does not need to appeal to external experts to debate this issue. I think we can all agree, without citing any external sources, that a disease/disorder is something that causes one significant problems. And as I argued, no one has shown that every transgendered person has a disorder which is what would be required if one is to say that transgenderism itself is a disorder.

    So I'm not going to challenge your assertions regarding the DSM so much as ignore them. If you don't want me to use the DSM for my arguments because you feel that it's too flawed, no problem. I won't appeal to it. I don't think I ever did in the first place.

    Like I said, it's not necessary to appeal to outside sources to have this debate.

  10. #189
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Actually, I find this to be off-topic to any argument that I am making. If I were using the DSM as support for my argument, then questioning the DSM would be relevant to my argument. But I'm not referencing them directly.
    You have said something to the effect of "deferring to the experts" which rely on DSM, but cool, we shall drop DSM.

    ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But as I said earlier, one does not need to appeal to external experts to debate this issue. I think we can all agree, without citing any external sources, that a disease/disorder is something that causes one significant problems. And as I argued, no one has shown that every transgendered person has a disorder which is what would be required if one is to say that transgenderism itself is a disorder.
    And again, per this criteria, if being transgendered "causes one significant problems" then it is a disorder.
    That certainly does not mean EVERY transgendered has "significant problems" necessarily.

  11. #190
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You have said something to the effect of "deferring to the experts" which rely on DSM, but cool, we shall drop DSM.
    As your article noted, many professionals disagree with the new classifications for the DSM so it's not at all true that expert opinions need to rely on the DSM.

  12. #191
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    As your article noted, many professionals disagree with the new classifications for the DSM so it's not at all true that expert opinions need to rely on the DSM.
    Are you actually reading my posts? You seem more concerned about your responses than my thoughts...

  13. #192
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Are you actually reading my posts? You seem more concerned about your responses than my thoughts...
    I'm reading your posts. And as I said, I don't think they are really providing a valid argument in regards to whether transgenderism is or is not a disorder which is the topic of this debate.

    You seem to be arguing (or at least is the ramification of your argument) that we should not use the DSM as a source for support in this debate. As I said, I'm not going to challenge that arguments. So that issue seems to be settled.

    If you don't have an argument arguing that transgenderism should or should not be considered a mental disorder, I'm not sure we have anything to debate.

  14. #193
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Certainly there are all kinds of other distress, but that is not what I was talking about was it? What I said (in response to Mican) was "Originally Posted by Belthazor And "IF one" does feel distressed about being transgendered?"
    I left no room for other distress.
    So, to clarify, you're referring to the former distress in my post?
    the person's distress is specifically about their being transgendered (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, and that's a bad thing.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look, my point is most anything can be a disorder in DSM-V and I am just playing along with the criteria to prove it.
    I disagree, the DSM-5 appears to provide clear criteria for when something should be considered a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Or how eating can be a disorder (same source): 5) Excessive eating 12 times in 3 months is no longer just a manifestation of gluttony and the easy availability of really great tasting food. DSM 5 has instead turned it into a psychiatric illness called Binge Eating Disorder.
    This appears to be a misrepresentation of the criteria for binge-eating. Excessive eating episodes are defined in the DSM-5 with the below criteria.

    Meeting both the following criteria:
    1. Eating, in a discrete period of time (e.g., within any 2-hour period), an amount of food that is definitely larger than what most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances.
    2. A sense of lack of control over eating during the episode (e.g., a feeling that one cannot stop eating or control what or how much one is eating).

    And meeting at least three of the following criteria:
    1. Eating much more rapidly than normal.
    2. Eating until feeling uncomfortably full.
    3. Eating large amounts of food when not feeling physically hungry.
    4. Eating alone because of feeling embarrassed by how much one is eating.
    5. Feeling disgusted with oneself, depressed, or very guilty afterward.

    It also offers the following stipulation: "The essential feature of binge-eating disorder is recurrent episodes of binge eating that must occur, on average, at least once per week for 3 months"

    This definitely doesn't fit with your source's representation that these are simply "manifestations of gluttony and the easy availability of really great tasting food".

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    1) Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder: DSM 5 will turn temper tantrums into a mental disorder
    Again, this is a misrepresentation of the criteria. It's not simply that a temper tantrum will be considered a mental disorder - there are a number of specific criteria which must be met in order to diagnose such a disorder.

    In any case, the real danger is whether the criteria and guidelines will be followed carefully, and how accurately those performing the diagnoses will apply the clear criteria to the behaviours exhibited by their patients. The human factor is always the most troubling.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    You seem to be arguing (or at least is the ramification of your argument) that we should not use the DSM as a source for support in this debate. As I said, I'm not going to challenge that arguments. So that issue seems to be settled.
    DSM was being used as support earlier in the thread (not necessarily by you), and yes, I was challenging the validity of DSM-V (specifically) methodology. Since you are not relying on that currently, no issue there

    ---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you don't have an argument arguing that transgenderism should or should not be considered a mental disorder, I'm not sure we have anything to debate.
    Well, as you said a few posts ago, pretty much "anything" could be a disorder, and I totally agree. I have seen no support that in a given transgendered person, being transgendered can't be a disorder, because "almost anything can be a disorder". This again, in no way suggests that all transgendered MUST have a disorder.

    ---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    So, to clarify, you're referring to the former distress in my post?
    the person's distress is specifically about their being transgendered (like, "Oh no, I'm transgendered, and that's a bad thing.")
    Several people have mentioned "distress" or similar criteria to indicate a disorder.

    If being transgendered was the cause of a given person to be in "distress" (insert whatever negative verbage you like here that is causing "issues" in their life. I don't wish to bog down in a word definition dispute). Then for that person, being transgendered is a disorder.

  16. #195
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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well, as you said a few posts ago, pretty much "anything" could be a disorder, and I totally agree. I have seen no support that in a given transgendered person, being transgendered can't be a disorder, because "almost anything can be a disorder". This again, in no way suggests that all transgendered MUST have a disorder.
    I don't agree with the notion that anything can be a disorder. Something either is a disorder or it is not a disorder.

    This might be better clarified if we use disease instead of disorder. A cold IS a disease, not something that "could be" a disease. Being left-handed IS NOT a disease, not something that "could be" a disease.

    And the default for EVERYTHING is that it's NOT a disorder. Whatever it is, one has to present an argument that it is a disorder before one should even consider that a possibility.

    If what you mean that one can develop a disorder regarding anything, that is reasonable. For example, cleaning is not a disorder but one can develop an obsessive need to clean and therefore one can have a cleaning-related disorder. But that does not mean that cleaning itself is, or can be, a disorder.

    I think we are discussing terms more than the issue itself but regardless, it is incorrect to argue that transgenderism could be a disorder. Either it fits the definition of a disorder or it does not fit the definition of a disorder. One or the other. And no one has succeeded in showing that it does fit the definition of a disorder.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333;556994
    I don't agree with the notion that anything can be a disorder. Something either is a disorder or it is not a disorder.
    Huh????

    Per your post #184:
    "So I fully agree that grieving CAN BE a disorder which is quite different than saying that normal grieving is a disorder.

    I'd say this logic applies to the rest of your points so I won't respond further but to say that I agree that practically anything can be a disorder. One can develop eating habits that are acutely harmful to that person and uncontrollable. I would say that that qualifies as a disorder."

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Per your post #184:
    "So I fully agree that grieving CAN BE a disorder which is quite different than saying that normal grieving is a disorder
    Then I misspoke. I meant that grieving can be the basis of a disorder. But grieving itself is not a disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I'd say this logic applies to the rest of your points so I won't respond further but to say that I agree that practically anything can be a disorder. One can develop eating habits that are acutely harmful to that person and uncontrollable. I would say that that qualifies as a disorder."
    But "eating habits" and just "eating" are not the same thing.

    Eating is not a disorder but there are eating-related disorders. But again, we seem to be quibbling over how things are said.

    The RELEVANT point to transgenderism is that no one has shown that transgenderism itself is a disorder. Whether there are disorders related to transgenderism is another issue.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Then I misspoke. I meant that grieving can be the basis of a disorder. But grieving itself is not a disorder.



    But "eating habits" and just "eating" are not the same thing.

    Eating is not a disorder but there are eating-related disorders. But again, we seem to be quibbling over how things are said.

    The RELEVANT point to transgenderism is that no one has shown that transgenderism itself is a disorder. Whether there are disorders related to transgenderism is another issue.

    Mican, I messed up my last post (#196), sorry for the confusion.

    Please allow me to try it again....

    ---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I doubt the DSM is referring to NORMAL grieving as a disorder. To put it in layman's terms, a disorder is a problem that someone has so of course a mental disorder is a mental problems. If someone grieves the loss of a loved one in a NORMAL fashion, then what the person is doing is natural, expected, and should not be considered a problem/disorder.

    On the other hand, if someone engages in ABNORMAL grieving, such as still grieving intensely for too long or becoming suicidal and so on, then they have a problem and then their grieving could justifiably be considered a disorder.

    So I fully agree that grieving CAN BE a disorder which is quite different than saying that normal grieving is a disorder.

    I'd say this logic applies to the rest of your points so I won't respond further but to say that I agree that practically anything can be a disorder. One can develop eating habits that are acutely harmful to that person and uncontrollable. I would say that that qualifies as a disorder.

    --------------------------

    But as I said earlier, one does not need to appeal to external experts to debate this issue. I think we can all agree, without citing any external sources, that a disease/disorder is something that causes one significant problems. And as I argued, no one has shown that every transgendered person has a disorder which is what would be required if one is to say that transgenderism itself is a disorder.
    So:
    not everyone that grieves has a disorder, but grieving can be a disorder.
    not everyone that eats has a disorder, but eating can be a disorder.
    and you say "I agree that practically anything can be a disorder."

    And all of this I agree with.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    not everyone that grieves has a disorder, but grieving can be a disorder.
    I disagree with the way you are phrasing it.

    Change it to:

    "Not everyone that grieves has a disorder, but one can have a disorder that is related to grieving" and I agree.

    So I assume that is what you are saying? If so, then we agree.

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    Re: Gay/Transgender

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333;557001
    Then I misspoke. I meant that grieving can be the basis of a disorder. But grieving itself is not a disorder.
    I agree grieving, in and of itself is not a disorder. But grieving can be harmful ("the basis of a disorder", to quote you) and that is when it's a disorder.
    Likewise, eating is not in and of itself a disorder, but when it is harmful, it is a disorder.
    And being transgendered is not in and of itself a disorder, but when it is harmful, it is a disorder.

    So, I never said being transgendered itself is a disorder so that point is not relevant at all.

    ---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I disagree with the way you are phrasing it.

    Change it to:

    "Not everyone that grieves has a disorder, but one can have a disorder that is related to grieving" and I agree.

    So I assume that is what you are saying? If so, then we agree.
    But it isn't "related" to grieving. It is (per your definition) abnormal /harmful grieving that is a disorder.

    What is it that is "related" to grieving that is causing harm?

 

 
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