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  1. #21
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I can accept that he didn't intend to offend anyone but he knows he made an offensive gesture and admitted that he did. HE thinks the gesture is offensive.
    Let’s focus on the above for a bit.

    Read the definitions of offense and offensive. Committing an offense or committing an offensive act means breaking laws, rules or expectations held by other people. It is the effect on others that determines whether something is offensive. One can know and acknowledge that an act was offensive, in retrospect, without having intended it to be so. This is exactly what appears to have happened. As you have accepted, Gurriel “didn’t intend to offend”, but acknowledged that others were offended.

    By contrast, racism is determined solely by the intent of the person performing the action or holding the belief. It is NOT determined by others who may feel offended. Observers may speculate on whether the person was motivated by racism, and a good case can be made by examining the person’s words and actions. But what is in the mind of that individual is the real determining factor. So when you accept that Gurriel “didn’t intend to offend anyone” it is not logical to continue claiming that he committed a racist act. It is impossible for the act to be racist if he didn’t mean for it to be. Offensive to others? Yes. Racist? No.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Read the definitions of offense and offensive. Committing an offense or committing an offensive act means breaking laws, rules or expectations held by other people. It is the effect on others that determines whether something is offensive. One can know and acknowledge that an act was offensive, in retrospect, without having intended it to be so. This is exactly what appears to have happened. As you have accepted, Gurriel “didn’t intend to offend”, but acknowledged that others were offended.
    No. He himself called his action "offensive". He did not couch this by saying that merely "others found it offensive". So while agree that he didn't intend to offend, he does acknowledge that what he did was offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    By contrast, racism is determined solely by the intent of the person performing the action or holding the belief. It is NOT determined by others who may feel offended. Observers may speculate on whether the person was motivated by racism, and a good case can be made by examining the person’s words and actions. But what is in the mind of that individual is the real determining factor. So when you accept that Gurriel “didn’t intend to offend anyone” it is not logical to continue claiming that he committed a racist act. It is impossible for the act to be racist if he didn’t mean for it to be. Offensive to others? Yes. Racist? No.
    No, it's impossible for a PERSON to be racist if he didn't intend racial offense when he did something. If you want to argue that Gurriel is not racist, I won't challenge that. But just like the N-word is a racist word even if it wasn't uttered with intent to be racially offensive, a gesture mocking asians is a racist gesture.

    Again, Gurriel concedes that it's offensive. And if one asks "In what way was the gesture offensive?", the answer will clearly be related to racism. Can you actually think of a reasonable alternative why someone would find offense at the slant-eye gesture.

    And getting back to a very pertinent issue, I see no evidence of overreaction from ANYONE, especially the media. All of the links that you provided that I read soberly relayed what had happened and I doubt it's out of character for the sports media to report when a player gets suspended for misbehavior. Beyond the temporary suspension, I see no indication that Gurriel is going to face any other kind of sanction from any quarter (no boycotts, probably little or no hate mail). This really is not a valid example of everyone being too PC and going ape over a mild racial offense.

 

 
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