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  1. #1
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    How is this Racism?

    A major league baseball player pulled at his eyes to make them appear slanted, and referred to the pitcher Yu Darvish, saying something like "He must have thought I was chinito (little japanese boy) to give me a good pitch to hit".

    Set aside that MLB suspended him for inappropriate behavior, because it didn't accuse Gurriel of racism. MLB can police it's business how it sees fit. But the major news media has gone apesh1t about this incident, accusing Gurriel of committing a "racist gesture".

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/s...u-darvish.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...rvish-50785014

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/baseball/41793857

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.3596366

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...itive-gesture/

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...m_world_series

    http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/1...s-pitcher.html

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...sitive-n815281

    http://time.com/5001535/yuli-gurriel...-world-series/

    ... and countless more.

    Making fun of racially different appearances, without even implying that a race of people is inferior, may be schoolyard stuff, may be mildly offensive, but it is in no way racism. The media's overblown coverage is nothing more than yellow journalism and political correctness run amok.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Seems pretty cut and dried. How offensive does it have to be?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #3
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    For most folks in American Society, being disrespectful and rude by use of racial mockery is considered racist. It does not require a philosophical ideology of superiority. You can simply demonstrate your lack of respect.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #4
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Welcome back, Sig. Believe it or not, I missed you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    For most folks in American Society, being disrespectful and rude by use of racial mockery is considered racist. It does not require a philosophical ideology of superiority. You can simply demonstrate your lack of respect.
    Then "most folks in American Society" are uneducated boobs, who don't understand or don't care what words actually mean. (I do not include you in that description, as I can see you distanced yourself from their position, and I know you wouldn't argue with an appeal to popularity.)
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Artificially adopting aspects of another race in order to mock a person who belongs to that race is to say that the person is inferior because of their race and therefore fits the definition of racism.

    Surely adopting black-face is racist. This is pretty much the same thing.

    Likewise making fun of a fat person by sticking one's belly out and puffing out one's cheeks is to make fun of the person for being fat - saying that they are inferior because they are fat. Same principle if one slants one's eyes to mock an asian.

  6. #6
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Artificially adopting aspects of another race in order to mock a person who belongs to that race is to say that the person is inferior because of their race and therefore fits the definition of racism.
    Is there any evidence that the pitcher's race was the target of mockery? From the reports, it appears to me that the derision was aimed at the pitch thrown to Gurriel. It was very easy to hit, as though thrown to a little boy. The Asian affectation appears only to reinforce Gurriel's suggestion that Darvish would throw an easy pitch if the batter were an Asian boy. There is no scorn for Asians suggested.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #7
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Is there any evidence that the pitcher's race was the target of mockery?
    Yes When one slants one eyes, they are referring to asians If they do so in a mocking fashion (which was the case here) then, they are mocking due to race.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the reports, it appears to me that the derision was aimed at the pitch thrown to Gurriel. It was very easy to hit, as though thrown to a little boy. The Asian aspect appears only to reinforce Gurriel's suggestion that Darvish would throw an easy pitch if the batter were an Asian boy. There is no scorn for Asians suggested.
    No, you are just ignoring the scorn.

    AGAIN, adopting a racial characteristic to make fun of someone of that race is racial mocking. There might be other aspects to the whole thing, but that does not alter the fact that the action constitutes racial mocking. If you think otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but others are certainly justified in having a different opinion than you.

  8. #8
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yes When one slants one eyes, they are referring to asians If they do so in a mocking fashion (which was the case here) then, they are mocking due to race.



    No, you are just ignoring the scorn.

    AGAIN, adopting a racial characteristic to make fun of someone of that race is racial mocking. There might be other aspects to the whole thing, but that does not alter the fact that the action constitutes racial mocking. If you think otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but others are certainly justified in having a different opinion than you.
    As a typical liberal, you think racism is in the eye of the beholder, and not in the intent of the accused. Very sad, but a good demonstration of how much of Sig's "American Society" views such things.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #9
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As a typical liberal, you think racism is in the eye of the beholder, and not in the intent of the accused.
    Nope. My argument is not based on opinion. As I've said, and you have not rebutted, if one adopts a racial characteristic to mock someone of a race, it indicates racism.

    And in the face of this, you resort to mocking me and liberals in general instead of providing a rebuttal to my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Very sad
    It is. But not unexpected

    And I won't say that this is the actions of a "typical conservative" because attributing something that one person does to the whole of the group is asinine.

  10. #10
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Nope. My argument is not based on opinion. As I've said, and you have not rebutted, if one adopts a racial characteristic to mock someone of a race, it indicates racism.
    Yes, it is your opinion, and you said I'm entitled to mine. And mine is that Gurriel's words clearly indicate he was mocking the pitch thrown to him, not Darvish's race. If you can't see that, oh well, that's not unexpected. Very sad, yes, but not unexpected.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #11
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, it is your opinion, and you said I'm entitled to mine.
    Right. Your argument is just based on opinion. Mine is not. I have explained how such actions mock the race of the person one is mocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And mine is that Gurriel's words clearly indicate he was mocking the pitch thrown to him, not Darvish's race. If you can't see that, oh well, that's not unexpected.
    I can see that. I can also see that you are ignoring my argument.

    My argument is about his actions, not his words. I've explained how the actions generally constitute racism in the same way that wearing blackface constitutes racism. And you are ignoring my argument and instead talking about some other aspect of the issue. You do realize that some can take a racist action and then say something that isn't racist, right? We are talking about different things and you aren't addressing what I'm referring to but talking about something else.

    Ignoring my argument does not rebut it. I've explained how people can reasonably consider his actions to be racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If you can't see that, oh well, that's not unexpected. Very sad, yes, but not unexpected.
    Again, I understand your argument. It's soooooo sad that you can't see that your argument doesn't rebut my argument. How very, very, very, very sad. Boo hoo.

    How about we drop this "so sad" silliness, huh?

  12. #12
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    This was the rebuttal "The Asian affectation appears only to reinforce Gurriel's suggestion that Darvish would throw an easy pitch if the batter were an Asian boy. There is no scorn for Asians suggested." Maybe you missed it. No doubt you will refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate rebuttal.

    ---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Seems pretty cut and dried. How offensive does it have to be?
    Your response suggests that you think anything racially related that is seen as "offensive" = racism. This makes racism something defined by the viewer only. Shouldn't the intent of the accused be the major factor in deciding whether some action or gesture is racist?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #13
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This was the rebuttal "The Asian affectation appears only to reinforce Gurriel's suggestion that Darvish would throw an easy pitch if the batter were an Asian boy. There is no scorn for Asians suggested." Maybe you missed it. No doubt you will refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate rebuttal.
    I see no reason to agree with your assessment that the reason that he made the racist gesture was not for racist reasons. And even his statement sounds rather racist. You can say it's all about criticizing the pitch but then if that's all it is, then why not just say a "little boy" and leave "asian" out of it? It appears that he said "asian" in part to mock the ethnicity of the pitcher and the slant-eye gesture is typically a racist gesture and there is nothing there to show that this was an exception.

    If you want to say that you think it's not racist, then that's what you think. But I see nothing in there that would lead someone considers the slant-eye gesture to be racist to think that in this instance it was not. The fact that he said "asian boy" instead of "little boy" appears to reinforce the notion that it was racist, not defuse it.

  14. #14
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The fact that he said "asian boy" instead of "little boy" appears to reinforce the notion that it was racist, not defuse it.
    When the words and gesture are taken together, they suggest that the pitcher might act favorably to an asian child by throwing an easy pitch to hit, and that he held the pitch thrown in disdain. Period. Nothing more, unless you insist on seeing racism where it isn't.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #15
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    When the words and gesture are taken together, they suggest that the pitcher might act favorably to an asian child by throwing an easy pitch to hit, and nothing more.
    That's what you think and I won't even say that you are being particularly illogical or wrong-headed in your belief (not saying the opposite either). But I will say that:

    1. I disagree with your viewpoint and could (and have in my prior post) justify a contrary position
    2. Most people would disagree with you as well. The slant-eye gesture is justifiably considered racist and therefore people have good reason to think it was a racist gesture this time.
    3. You argue that there are extenuating circumstances that mean that in this instance the gesture was not racist. But again, most people would not agree with you - either because they, like me, find your argument to be unconvincing, and to a greater extent, aren't even aware of your argument and therefore could not be convinced no matter convincing your argument is.
    4. Therefore, your argument aside, MOST people have good reason to consider the gesture to be racist.
    5. Therefore, people in general are not being illogical or stupid or too PC or whatever when they think the gesture was racist and therefore the charge that the media was overreacting is not supported.


    -----------------------------------

    Not to mention, Gurrel's statement suggests that it was racist.

    "I made an offensive gesture that was indefensible," Gurriel said in a statement released by the Astros. "I sincerely apologize to everyone that I offended with my actions. I deeply regret it."

    In that statement, he did not use the word "racist" but he said it was "offensive". And of course it's considered offensive because it's considered racist. There is no other reason for that gesture to be considered offensive.

    And I looked through a couple of the links and NONE of them qualify as "going apes**t". It all looks like typical reporting of a sports story of interest.

    HOUSTON — Yuli Gurriel, the Houston Astros first baseman who was seen making a racist gesture in the dugout during Game 3 of the World Series on Friday night, has been given a five-game suspension without pay that will begin at the start of the 2018 season.

    The suspension, which was handed down by Rob Manfred, the commissioner of Major League Baseball, is the largest levied against a player for a public act of intolerance during a baseball game, exceeding by two games the suspension of Yunel Escobar, who was penalized for gay slurs written on his eye black strips in 2012.

    Manfred’s decision, which he announced in a Saturday afternoon news conference, means that Gurriel will not have to sit out any of the remaining games of the World Series. The Los Angeles Dodgers tied the Series at two games apiece with a 6-2 victory on Saturday night.

    Gurriel is scheduled to earn $12 million in 2018 and will lose roughly $320,855 because of the suspension. He will also have to undergo sensitivity training.

    “There is no excuse or explanation that makes that type of behavior acceptable,” Manfred said.

    During Game 3 of the Series on Friday, Gurriel, who defected from Cuba in 2016, hit a home run off Dodgers pitcher Yu Darvish in the bottom of the second inning. After Gurriel returned to the dugout, he was captured on camera smiling and then raising his hands as if to stretch the sides of his eyes. It seemed to be a clear, and pointedly insensitive, reference to Darvish, who is from Japan.

    After Game 3 ended in a Houston victory, Gurriel was besieged by reporters, and he told them through an interpreter that he did not intend to offend Darvish. He maintained that he was telling teammates that maybe Darvish thought he was Japanese and that is why he gave him a good pitch to hit.

    Darvish issued a statement Friday night forgiving Gurriel and asking people to learn from the incident.

    Manfred then met with Gurriel, who is 33, on Saturday and said the player was contrite. Still, Manfred said Major League Baseball needed to act and send a message.

    “Notwithstanding Mr. Gurriel’s remorse, there needs to be disciplinary consequences to make clear that Major League Baseball is an institution that will not tolerate behavior of this type,” he said.

    Manfred gave four reasons for postponing the suspension until next season. First, he did not want to penalize the other members of the Astros at such a critical moment in the season. He also said that Gurriel’s statement of contrition was a factor and that he wanted Gurriel to feel the financial impact of the penalty, which would not have happened in the World Series because of the manner in which players receive their salaries.

    Finally, Manfred said he wanted to afford Gurriel the right to the usual appeal process, even though the players’ union announced Saturday that Gurriel would not appeal.

    Actually, the appeal issue was a somewhat complicated one. In the regular season, a player who appeals a suspension can continue to play until the appeal process is completed.

    In the postseason, however, a different timetable is used, and under it, a suspension immediately takes effect unless an arbitrator grants a stay. So had Manfred chosen to suspend Gurriel for Game 4 and had the union decided to appeal, the Series would have had to deal with a major distraction — namely, which way the arbitrator was going to rule.

    And while Manfred did not say so in his news conference, he might have wanted to avoid that sort of situation.

    At his news conference on Saturday, Manfred was also asked why Major League Baseball was quick to punish Gurriel while the Cleveland Indians are permitted to use their Chief Wahoo logo, which is viewed by many people as an offensive caricature of Native Americans.

    In response, Manfred said he saw a difference between one player specifically targeting another with a racial stereotype and the Chief Wahoo logo, but acknowledged that each one was troublesome.

    “While both are problematic, I don’t see them as the same issue,” he said. “We continue to have conversations with the Indians about the logo, and it’s an issue I intend to deal with in the off-season.”

    In addition to the hand gesture, Gurriel also could be seen on camera on Friday using the Spanish word “chinito,” which can be used as a demeaning term for Asians. Manfred said the five-game suspension of Gurriel and the sensitivity-training requirement took into account that he had uttered that word.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/s...u-darvish.html

    What on Earth is Ape about that story? I don't think the author himself said the gesture was "racist". Really, the only thing the media seems to have done is just report a story of interest.
    Last edited by mican333; October 31st, 2017 at 03:18 PM.

  16. #16
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've explained how the actions generally constitute racism in the same way that
    wearing blackface constitutes racism.
    I ask the following questions out of genuine curiosity. I have no interest in the
    race stuff per se, but I do have an interest in the consistency and motive issues
    involved in "wearing blackface."

    "Blackface is a form of theatrical makeup used predominantly by non-black
    performers to represent a black person."__Off the web

    Do you think "wearing blackface" must always be racist?

    What if light skinned black stage actors choose to wear blackface?
    Is that racist?

    What if white actors, known to be strongly anti-racist, wear blackface
    and all the staging company agrees the race-motive is pure as the
    white driven snow, and performance art only. Still racist?

    What if black stage actors wear whiteface? Is that racist?
    (Wiki has an article titled "Whiteface (Performance)"

    And finally, does perceived racism equal genuine racism?

    /just curious

  17. #17
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAGG View Post
    I ask the following questions out of genuine curiosity. I have no interest in the
    race stuff per se, but I do have an interest in the consistency and motive issues
    involved in "wearing blackface."

    "Blackface is a form of theatrical makeup used predominantly by non-black
    performers to represent a black person."__Off the web

    Do you think "wearing blackface" must always be racist?

    What if light skinned black stage actors choose to wear blackface?
    Is that racist?

    What if white actors, known to be strongly anti-racist, wear blackface
    and all the staging company agrees the race-motive is pure as the
    white driven snow, and performance art only. Still racist?

    What if black stage actors wear whiteface? Is that racist?
    (Wiki has an article titled "Whiteface (Performance)"

    And finally, does perceived racism equal genuine racism?

    /just curious
    If you want to discuss this issue, you will have to take the lead and make a statement that I can respond to.

  18. #18
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Likewise making fun of a fat person by sticking one's belly out and puffing
    out one's cheeks is to make fun of the person for being fat - saying that
    they are inferior because they are fat.
    Fatism? . . . lol . .

    They'd be guilty of Fatism?

    If the fat man was fat because he was in fact a glutton, he would in fact
    be inferior ( in say self-control) to healthy non-gluttonous food eaters.
    If you believe the medical profession the vast majority of Fat People are
    fat because of inferior choices they make regarding the kinds and
    amounts of food they consume.

    I'm mostly just kidding around with this. Yet my point seems reasonable.

    Btw, I would not make fun of a Fat Man regardless of the reasons he was
    fat. We all have our sins and shortcomings --- and "he that is without sin
    among you, be the first to cast a stone at her" is ever in my mind.

    And I wouldn't wear blackface either. I have better things to do than
    involve myself in such as that. Even watching television soap operas (the
    7th level of Hell for anybody not brain dead) is preferable to getting
    involved in the race mess going on in the public square 21st c. America.

    `

    ---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you want to discuss this issue
    I'd just as soon watch paint dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    you will have to take the lead and make a statement
    that I can respond to.
    I had just enough interest in the consistency and motive
    aspects, to eek out that set of questions. Your answers to
    them can remain secrets hidden away forever and ever
    in the recesses of your mind . . .

    . . . but thank you for your reply.

  19. #19
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    That's what you think and I won't even say that you are being particularly illogical or wrong-headed in your belief (not saying the opposite either). .
    Great. We agree that each have our opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    2. Most people would disagree with you as well.
    You know that is a blatant appeal to popularity, and can be ignored, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The slant-eye gesture is justifiably considered racist .
    Personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    …and therefore people have good reason to think it was a racist gesture this time. [.
    Appeal to tradition fallacy (It’s been considered racist in the past, so it can be considered racist in this case.) But more important than that logical fallacy, is that you are once again using the perception of observers as proof of racism, and not the intent of the accused.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    3. You argue that there are extenuating circumstances that mean that in this instance the gesture was not racist. But again, most people would not agree with you - either because they, like me, find your argument to be unconvincing, and to a greater extent, aren't even aware of your argument and therefore could not be convinced no matter convincing your argument is.
    Of course people aren’t aware of my argument. Charges of racism demand an apology form the accused and condemnation from everyone else. The accused just wants it to go away as fast as possible, because we’ve all been brainwashed to think that perceived offense means guilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    4. Therefore, your argument aside, MOST people have good reason to consider the gesture to be racist.
    More appeal to popularity. I almost wish we had the neg-rep option still available, because knowingly using a fallacy over and over deserves it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    5. Therefore, people in general are not being illogical or stupid or too PC or whatever when they think the gesture was racist and therefore the charge that the media was overreacting is not supported.
    The sheeple in general are doing what they’ve been conditioned to, say “Baaaaad” every time there is an accusation of racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Not to mention, Gurrel's statement suggests that it was racist. "I made an offensive gesture that was indefensible," Gurriel said in a statement released by the Astros. "I sincerely apologize to everyone that I offended with my actions. I deeply regret it."
    In that statement, he did not use the word "racist" but he said it was "offensive". And of course it's considered offensive because it's considered racist.
    He didn’t say it was racist, Mican. He said that it was a gesture that others found offensive and he regretted it. “offensive” relates to how it is received by others. His actions offended others, yes. They were offended. Offensive does NOT automatically equate to racism.

    Here are other quotes from Gurriel after the incident:
    "I didn't think anybody would think (bad) about what I meant with all those kinds of things like that," Gurriel said afterward through a translator. "I offer my apologies to baseball and anyone offended."

    "I didn't try to offend nobody. I was commenting to my family that I hadn't had any good luck against Japanese pitchers here in the United States. .... (And) In Cuba we call everyone who's from Asia 'chino.'"
    http://www.chron.com/sports/astros/a...s-12313171.php

    Gurriel did not mean to offend anyone. He didn’t think what he did would upset anyone. The “offense” was only perceived by others, and completely unintended.

    So, let’s look at the definition of racism:

    1 :a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2 a :a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
    b :a political or social system founded on racism
    3 :racial prejudice or discrimination

    I do not see where Gurriel acted with any intent to be prejudicial or discriminatory. He did not act with any sense that Asians are inferior. So how did he do anything that was racist? Don’t answer with how others perceived his actions because that is irrelevant. What did he actually intend that was racist?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  20. #20
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    Re: How is this Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Great. We agree that each have our opinions.
    My argument that the slant-eye gesture is racist was not based on opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You know that is a blatant appeal to popularity, and can be ignored, right?
    No it's not an appeal to popularity as I'm not using it as the basis of support. It's a fact and if you ignore the facts of my argument then you are ignoring my argument and therefore failing to rebut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Personal opinion.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Appeal to tradition fallacy (It’s been considered racist in the past, so it can be considered racist in this case.) But more important than that logical fallacy, is that you are once again using the perception of observers as proof of racism, and not the intent of the accused.
    My argument is not about the intent of the accuser but whether, contrary to your OP, the press is overreacting (AKA Going Apes**t) to the incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Of course people aren’t aware of my argument. Charges of racism demand an apology form the accused and condemnation from everyone else. The accused just wants it to go away as fast as possible, because we’ve all been brainwashed to think that perceived offense means guilt.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    More appeal to popularity. I almost wish we had the neg-rep option still available, because knowingly using a fallacy over and over deserves it.
    I'm glad we don't have it as apparently you would be using it in response to your misunderstanding of my argument.

    Just pointing out what the majority believes is not inherently an appeal to popularity fallacy. I'm not saying that the majority is correct that he's being racist so I'm not using the fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The sheeple in general are doing what they’ve been conditioned to, say “Baaaaad” every time there is an accusation of racism.
    Begging the question fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    He didn’t say it was racist, Mican. He said that it was a gesture that others found offensive and he regretted it.
    Let's look at the quote, then. "I made an offensive gesture that was indefensible,". No, he did NOT say "others found". He himself said the gesture was offensive and indefensible so HE thinks the gesture was offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    “offensive” relates to how it is received by others. His actions offended others, yes. They were offended. Offensive does NOT automatically equate to racism.
    Not automatically. But if one asks "Why do people find it offensive" and the most obvious answer is "Because they view it as racist" THEN it is a racially offensive gesture.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Gurriel did not mean to offend anyone. He didn’t think what he did would upset anyone. The “offense” was only perceived by others, and completely unintended.
    I can accept that he didn't intend to offend anyone but he knows he made an offensive gesture and admitted that he did. HE thinks the gesture is offensive. And btw, I don't even see a major overreaction from people. He got a suspension from the league and the press reported what happened and....that's about it.

    Really, this whole thread is really much ado about nothing. No one really overreacted, let alone when ape****.



    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I do not see where Gurriel acted with any intent to be prejudicial or discriminatory. He did not act with any sense that Asians are inferior. So how did he do anything that was racist? Don’t answer with how others perceived his actions because that is irrelevant. What did he actually intend that was racist?
    Because the gesture was racist. A person can likewise say the N-word without actually being a racist or with intend to offend. But that doesn't change the fact that the word is a racist slur and people find it offensive. So let's say that a white athlete was caught in the dugout on a live mic describing a Chris Rock routine where Chris used the word. It can be rationally said that he had no intention of offending anyone but it doesn't change the fact that he used a racial slur. And if a controversy erupts and the press reports that he did that, it's not an overreaction from the press.

    The part of my post that you didn't respond to is that the press did not go crazy over the issue. The one story I linked didn't even say that the gesture was "racist". So again, I don't see who's in the wrong here. The press nor anyone else, really did anything wrong. If Gurriel was really unjustly punished or overly sanctioned, then I'd say there was an overreaction but just accurately reporting what happened is not going Ape.

 

 
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