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  1. #21
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    In the op I wrote: "Legal restrictions shouldn't influence whether a certain sexual orientation is considered normal or a mental disorder." Restated, legal definitions and concepts, such as a legal age of consent, should not be involved in determining mental disorders, because they are social constructs which may vary from country to country, by state, or over time.

    You have not rebutted that position. When pressed, you evade and resort to asking me questions. So do you have a rebuttal? If so, write it.
    OK. The issue is harm. If one’s sexual desires, if acted upon, will harm another Then it can qualify as a paraphilia. And of course having sex with underage people who are too young to consent is uniformly harmful to those people. So when it comes to determining if one is old enough to consent, a pretty rational line is the legal age of consent.

  2. #22
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    OK. The issue is harm. If one’s sexual desires, if acted upon, will harm another Then it can qualify as a paraphilia. And of course having sex with underage people who are too young to consent is uniformly harmful to those people. So when it comes to determining if one is old enough to consent, a pretty rational line is the legal age of consent.
    No harm is committed by thoughts. A pedophile who sincerely swears off touching children and even looking at pictures harms no one. The inclusion of a legal age of consent is an artificial and inappropriate insertion to the definition of a mental disorder. Legal definitions had no legitimate place in determining whether homosexuality should be considered a disorder. Other sexual orientations should be addressed similarly.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No harm is committed by thoughts. A pedophile who sincerely swears off touching children and even looking at pictures harms no one.
    But he still has a mental problem. Whatever clinical term you may accept or reject, you DO agree that there is something wrong in this guy's head, right? And it likewise makes sense to put a label on his dysfunction, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The inclusion of a legal age of consent is an artificial and inappropriate insertion to the definition of a mental disorder. Legal definitions had no legitimate place in determining whether homosexuality should be considered a disorder. Other sexual orientations should be addressed similarly.
    First off, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation so the last comment is based on a false premise and is discarded for that reason.

    And the legal age of consent is not artificial. It was determined by the relevant experts (not law enforcement but medical/psychological) that having sex with a person too young to consent is harmful to that person. So the age of consent is not forwarded randomly by some judge or law enforcement officer but by the appropriate psychological experts. And the legislature acts upon what the experts have forwarded as the age of consent and used that for the law.

    So the mental definition of a paraphilia is not based on what law enforcement says. The mental definition is based on medical experts and the legal definition of age of consent is likewise based on that.

  4. #24
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But he still has a mental problem. Whatever clinical term you may accept or reject, you DO agree that there is something wrong in this guy's head, right? And it likewise makes sense to put a label on his dysfunction, right?
    The label is pedophilia. Who are you to call it a dysfunction? Why is pedophilia dysfunctional while homosexuality is not?


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First off, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation...
    Of course it is. The APA has bowed to public pressure to say that it isn't, but it most definitely is. Pedophiles are sexually aroused by children of a certain age. You and I find that disgusting, and the APA doesn't want to legitimize it, but if it isn't a sexual orientation, then why do pedophiles get sexually aroused by looking at children? It is just asinine to pretend they don't have a sexual orientation towards children.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And the legal age of consent is not artificial. It was determined by the relevant experts (not law enforcement but medical/psychological) that having sex with a person too young to consent is harmful to that person. So the age of consent is not forwarded randomly by some judge or law enforcement officer but by the appropriate psychological experts. And the legislature acts upon what the experts have forwarded as the age of consent and used that for the law.
    Do you deny that the legal age of consent varies from nation to nation, and by state within the US? Do you know what the age is for consent is for girls in much of the Muslim world? 12. Guess where else 12-year olds can get married in certain circumstances? Massachusetts. If psychiatric experts are determining a single age of consent, why aren't all the laws the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So the mental definition of a paraphilia is not based on what law enforcement says. The mental definition is based on medical experts and the legal definition of age of consent is likewise based on that.
    Of course it is based on what law enforcement says, that is why the word "legal" is included in the definition.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The label is pedophilia. Who are you to call it a dysfunction? Why is pedophilia dysfunctional while homosexuality is not?
    Because one fits the professional definition of a paraphilia and the other does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Of course it is. The APA has bowed to public pressure to say that it isn't, but it most definitely is.
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Pedophiles are sexually aroused by children of a certain age. You and I find that disgusting, and the APA doesn't want to legitimize it, but if it isn't a sexual orientation, then why do pedophiles get sexually aroused by looking at children? It is just asinine to pretend they don't have a sexual orientation towards children.
    I'm sorry but words have definitions and while you are free to make up your own if you want, professionally the term "sexual orientation" does not apply to pedophiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you deny that the legal age of consent varies from nation to nation, and by state within the US? Do you know what the age is for consent is for girls in much of the Muslim world? 12. Guess where else 12-year olds can get married in certain circumstances? Massachusetts. If psychiatric experts are determining a single age of consent, why aren't all the laws the same?
    I never said psychiatrists determine a single age of consent. They have determined the concept of age of consent.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Of course it is based on what law enforcement says, that is why the word "legal" is included in the definition.
    If what law enforcement says is based on what the psychiatric experts say, then it's based on what the psychiatric experts say.


    And really, this is just nit-picking on your part. Even if I were to accept that it's a bit funky that legal definitions of corresponds with the professional definition, the solution would be to find a better way to determine age of consent for the professional definition. This issue, even if conceded, in no way supports either throwing out the definition of "paraphilia" (a tweak would fix the problem) or saying that pedophilia is not a paraphilia/disorder.

    Unless you are just going to not categorize sexual desires that, if acted upon, would involve unwilling partners (such as those who cannot consent), then pedophilia definitely deserves to be categorized as such. Arguing over which word is just nit-picking. Even in layman's terms, there is something wrong with such desires and it's appropriate to have a word to apply to such things
    Last edited by mican333; November 1st, 2017 at 07:02 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If you are saying that personal distress about their sexual orientation is always present with pedophiles, please support that claim.[COLOR="Silver"]
    That was from the definition you presented, why would I have to support it? Should we consider it retracted?
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  7. #27
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    I think the truth of it is this: There are two reasons we designate someone as being mentally unfit

    1. Their mental condition poses a threat to society in some way
    2. Their mental condition poses a threat to themselves in some way

    People who are gay typically don't fall into either category. They are unusual, non-normative, but essentially harmless to themselves and others.

    People who are pedophiles pose a significant danger to society by predating on children who most of the society feels a deep obligation to protect, especially from sexual attention and exploitation.

    -- Furthermore --

    I actually think that some degree of pedophilia is not that unusual. Those who are attracted to youth, say, beyond the age of 12 are not that abnormal in an instinctual sense. In many primitive cultures, marriages happen at those ages. And technically they may well be sexually mature. It's just in our more complicated society, it is not yet an age we deem adult and thus outside of adult sexual relationships.

    Those who are attracted to pre-pubescent children, I think are more non-normative and more dangerous partly because they well know that their desires will never be accepted as normal. Of course, anyone who breaks the law and preys upon children of any age is deserving of punishment for violation of the law, social order, and the rights of their victims.
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  9. #28
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I think the truth of it is this: There are two reasons we designate someone as being mentally unfit

    1. Their mental condition poses a threat to society in some way
    2. Their mental condition poses a threat to themselves in some way

    People who are gay typically don't fall into either category. They are unusual, non-normative, but essentially harmless to themselves and others.

    People who are pedophiles pose a significant danger to society by predating on children who most of the society feels a deep obligation to protect, especially from sexual attention and exploitation.

    -- Furthermore --

    I actually think that some degree of pedophilia is not that unusual. Those who are attracted to youth, say, beyond the age of 12 are not that abnormal in an instinctual sense. In many primitive cultures, marriages happen at those ages. And technically they may well be sexually mature. It's just in our more complicated society, it is not yet an age we deem adult and thus outside of adult sexual relationships.

    Those who are attracted to pre-pubescent children, I think are more non-normative and more dangerous partly because they well know that their desires will never be accepted as normal. Of course, anyone who breaks the law and preys upon children of any age is deserving of punishment for violation of the law, social order, and the rights of their victims.
    That is all fair points, but it is not the official standard referenced in the OP.
    The real sticking point, is calling a person who simply has thoughts and no actions a danger to society in any way, and then using that 'danger" to label them as suffering a "disorder".
    That would be like calling all people who have murderous thoughts, a danger to society, and then saying they have a mental disorder. (In the face of no actual action).
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  10. #29
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    SUPPORT OR RETRACT this statement.
    https://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...classification

    You may try to dispute this source, but the article gives a good general idea of what happened. There are other articles on the web explaining how the APA alters positions under pressure. It is not immune to politics.
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  11. #30
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    https://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...classification

    You may try to dispute this source, but the article gives a good general idea of what happened. There are other articles on the web explaining how the APA alters positions under pressure. It is not immune to politics.
    Just giving me a link is a linkwarz violation. So if you want to provide info from that link, cut and paste the pertinent text.

    And keep in mind that I challenged you to support or retract that the APA bowed to public pressure to declare that pedophilia is not a sexual orientation when in fact, it is.

    That claim fails for lack of support until you support it.

  12. #31
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Well, if you're going to insist on proper protocols, then another one is that debaters are supposed to report rule violations to a mod, and not accuse others in the thread. So, Mican, report your petty complaint to another mod.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #32
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, if you're going to insist on proper protocols, then another one is that debaters are supposed to report rule violations to a mod, and not accuse others in the thread. So, Mican, report your petty complaint to another mod.
    There is no protocol prohibiting informing others that they are not abiding by the rules. Nor is one obligated to report any and all rules violation. And the point stands that just providing a link is not proper support. So either way, you have not supported your assertion.

  14. #33
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    There is no protocol prohibiting informing others that they are not abiding by the rules.
    Oh, yes there has been in the past. When I told RogueCardinal to cite sources instead of doing a cut and paste plagiarism, I was told by a mod that any rules violations should go to a mod and debaters should not try to enforce rules themselves inthread.

    Furthermore, your claim that I violated the linkwarz rule is completely bogus. That rule is to prevent posting of links without accompanying argument, so that readers don't have to read the linked material to find the argument. I gave you my argument FIRST (that APA changed its position under pressure), so my responding to your request for support by giving you a link was entirely legal. I in no way violated the linkwarz rule.

    This resulting back and forth is exactly why you should have taken your crappy complaint to another mod, who would have told you that you are dead wrong.

    All of that said, here is the first sentence of the linked article, which supports my claim:

    "The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has backtracked on its designation of pedophilia as a “sexual orientation,” following backlash from conservative family organizations.". https://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...classification

    That should be sufficient, even for you.
    Last edited by evensaul; November 3rd, 2017 at 10:21 AM.
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  15. #34
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Oh, yes there has been in the past. When I told RogueCardinal to cite sources instead of doing a cut and paste plagiarism, I was told by a mod that any rules violations should go to a mod and debaters should not try to enforce rules themselves inthread.
    And I was not enforcing anything. I was pointing out that according to ODN rules, a link by itself is not support.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Furthermore, your claim that I violated the linkwarz rule is completely bogus. That rule is to prevent posting of links without accompanying argument, so that readers don't have to read the linked material to find the argument. I gave you my argument FIRST (that APA changed its position under pressure), so my responding to your request for support by giving you a link was entirely legal. I in no way violated the linkwarz rule.
    Wrong. The article does not say that the APA bowed to public pressure so you provided no accurate summary of any of the article's content.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    All of that said, here is the first sentence of the linked article, which supports my claim:

    "The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has backtracked on its designation of pedophilia as a “sexual orientation,” following backlash from conservative family organizations.". https://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...classification
    Nowhere in the article does it say that any public backlash was the cause of them changing it.

    According to the article:

    The embarrassing exposure prompted the APA to issue a statement insisting that the designation was an error and attempting to make a clarification. “'Sexual orientation' is not a term used in the diagnostic criteria for pedophilic disorder and its use in the DSM-5 text discussion is an error and should read 'sexual interest,'” the APA said. “In fact, APA considers pedophilic disorder a 'paraphilia,' not a 'sexual orientation.' This error will be corrected in the electronic version of DSM-5 and the next printing of the manual.”

    So that's what apparently happened. The APA made a mistake, a conservative group pointed it out, and the APA, realizing its error, changed it back to the ORIGINAL designation.

    And more the point, BOTH the APA and the conservative groups agree that pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. NO ONE, besides you that is, is saying that it is a sexual orientation. The right-wingers and the medical professionals all agree on this.

    So your statement that it "most definitely is" is not supported by ANYTHING you forwarded. So your statement that pedophilia is a sexual orientation is without support.

    So again - SUPPORT OR RETRACT that pedophilia is a sexual orientation.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That should be sufficient, even for you.
    It's pretty funny that you can't see that your own linked source shoots down your argument.

  16. #35
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    It's clear enough to me, including this bit you didn't quote "An anonymous APA source told LifeSiteNews.com that in using the term “sexual orientation” the APA “did not intend for it to be construed in the legal sense — as in a protected status under title IV and other legislation, but we learned that some may construe it that way. Therefore, we changed the word to 'interest' so that it would be clear that APA is speaking in medical terms, and is not commenting on legal status.” In other words, the description of pedophilia as a sexual orientation was accurate but politically problematic.

    Nobody made you judge and jury on whether support is adequate. My support stands, regardless what you think.
    Last edited by evensaul; November 3rd, 2017 at 12:14 PM.
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  18. #36
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    And as I said, and you ignored, that NO ONE is currently arguing (aside from you, that is) that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. The APA held that it wasn't, then briefly changed to it being one, and then changed it back. So currently they do not hold that it is a sexual orientation and no one disagree with them. Even the right-wingers don't seem to agree (since they are the one's who objected to it being labeled as such).

    So basically you are speaking for yourself and no one else when you say that it is a sexual orientation. So no, your point does not stand.

  19. #37
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And as I said, and you ignored, that NO ONE is currently arguing (aside from you, that is) that pedophilia is a sexual orientation.
    That is simply a variation on the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, and a transparent attempt to avoid the format - "Everyone else believes pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, so it isn't one."
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  20. #38
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That is simply a variation on the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, and a transparent attempt to avoid the format - "Everyone else believes pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, so it isn't one."
    It would be if I were using that to support the argument that pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. But I'm not forwarding such an argument but instead I was challenging YOUR argument that it is a sexual orientation. You provided a link for support and I'm pointing that going by what you provided, it's pretty much a consensus from experts and even right-wingers that it's not a sexual orientation.

    So in short, you have no support for your claim that it is a sexual orientation and therefore you argument fails for lack of support. Your link actually hurts your position instead of supporting it.

  21. #39
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    We clearly disagree, which is no surprise. I believe my claim that pedophilia is a sexual orientation stands as supported. You don't. Oh, well.
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  22. #40
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    We clearly disagree, which is no surprise. I believe my claim that pedophilia is a sexual orientation stands as supported. You don't. Oh, well.
    But then you just believing that you supported your argument does not count as support. Support requires evidence of some kind and all you provided was a link that shows that there's a consensus that it's not a sexual orientation.

    You can believe as you want but the facts of the debate speak for themselves.

 

 
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