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  1. #41
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    "The basics of the linkwarz rule is that it should not be required to actually click on the link in order to see how it "supports" the point being made.
    Any further questions regarding the citation rules should be directed to moderators privately, or through the report post feature."
    To serve man.

  2. #42
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well then edumacate me, Mican. Make everything crystal clear to poor ignorant me.
    This feels against guidelines... as I wrong here?

    ---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sexual relations with the same gender is illegal.
    Since when?
    A unified minority will always beat a divided majority.

  3. #43
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then you just believing that you supported your argument does not count as support. Support requires evidence of some kind and all you provided was a link that shows that there's a consensus that it's not a sexual orientation.

    You can believe as you want but the facts of the debate speak for themselves.
    My evidence showed there was a consensus of the APA that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, but that it changed the description for political reasons.

    I'm moving on now Mican.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #44
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    My evidence showed there was a consensus of the APA that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, but that it changed the description for political reasons.
    It does not show that there's a consensus from the APA (as in all members agreed that it is a sexual orientation. Nor does it show that the backtracking was for political reasons.

    And it DOES show that currently everyone agrees that it is a paraphlia and not a sexual orientation. Pedophilia was ALWAYS labeled a paraphilia except for a brief moment that everyone agrees was an error on some level (whether it's an unintentional error of a misclassification or the APA really attempted to label it a sexual orientation and then back-tracked, it is still an error).

    So whatever happened in the past, there is CURRENTLY a consensus that it's not a sexual orientation. If you disagree, so be it but there is no support that the current classification is incorrect.

  5. #45
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The real sticking point, is calling a person who simply has thoughts and no actions a danger to society in any way, and then using that 'danger" to label them as suffering a "disorder". That would be like calling all people who have murderous thoughts, a danger to society, and then saying they have a mental disorder. (In the face of no actual action).
    This is exactly right. Or how about the heterosexual Catholic priest who remains celibate for religious reasons. Or the cocaine addict with an urge to shoot up despite it being illegal. The guy who wants to punch a protester or counter protester- does that desire mean he has a mental disorder?

    It is illogical for mental disorders to be characterized by a desire for something that is forbidden by cultural expectations, laws, or other artificial barriers.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #46
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It is illogical for mental disorders to be characterized by a desire for something that is forbidden by cultural expectations, laws, or other artificial barriers.
    But then it hasn't been shown that pedophilia is characterized by a desire for something that is forbidden by cultural expectations, laws, or other artificial barriers. While sex with children is forbidden by culture and law, that is not the reason the desire for it is considered a mental illness.

    First off, there might be a misconception on what pedophilia is. It's a desire for sex with prepubescent children (who are typically under 13). A desire for sex with people who have reached puberty but are still under the age of consent within one's state is not pedophilia. I don't challenge the law that says that an adult having sex with a 15 year old is committing statutory rape and should be punished for it, but the person is not necessarily a pedophile.

    So given that we all agree that sex with prepubescent children is uniformly harmful to the children, the desire for sex with them is a desire for sexual activity that WILL cause harm to another human being. And it makes perfect sense to label such a desire to be a disorder.

    So even if you want to question identifying those who want to have sex with 15 year olds in states where that is illegal as having a mental disorder, pedophilia is indeed a mental disorder. Even if every law about underage sex was removed and therefore there was no legal prohibition against pedophilia, the act would still be harmful to others and therefore the desire would fit the category of a mental disorder.

  7. #47
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ...the act would still be harmful to others and therefore the desire would fit the category of a mental disorder.
    What if there is no act, only desire, and no expectation by the pedophile that the act would harm a child? Why should that sexual desire be categorized as a mental disorder?
    Last edited by evensaul; November 5th, 2017 at 04:13 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #48
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What if there is no act, only desire, and no expectation by the pedophile that the act would harm a child? Why should that sexual desire be categorized as a mental disorder?
    Because there is something wrong with the guy.

  9. #49
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Support that claim.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #50
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What if there is no act, only desire, and no expectation by the pedophile that the act would harm a child? Why should that sexual desire be categorized as a mental disorder?
    A person's desires, like their beliefs, don't live in a vacuum. They have a very real ability to affect any other decisions the person makes. The simple mental act of sexualizing children is not something which our society wants to happen - even if a paedophile never acts on their desire to engage in sex with children. Just ask yourself: do you think it's good for a society to have individuals who sexualize children and have sexual desires towards children? Would you feel comfortable if you had a child and found out that someone around them is thinking about them sexually - even if you had the guarantee that they'd never act on that desire (which there isn't)?

    While we should be careful that we don't engage in "thought-crime" type rationalizations, I think it's quite easy to identify certain thoughts/desires which are inherently wrong/disorderly. Many people have bad thoughts, such as wanting to hurt someone. However, thoughts like those - at least for emotionally-stable/psychologically-healthy folks - are almost always based in a rational consideration of ethical principles, as the person they want to hurt in some way deserves it or is a bad person. You want to smash the a-hole's windshield for driving recklessly. You'd like to publicly spank your bully boss. Whatever.

    But the paedophile doesn't make this rational consideration for ethical principles when sexualizing children. It's purely their desire to perform acts which would irreversibly harm a child, and solely for the sake of their own desire. It's the desire itself which is the disorder.

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  12. #51
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support that claim.
    do you disagree that there's something wrong with someone who wants to have sex with children?

  13. #52
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    do you disagree that there's something wrong with someone who wants to have sex with children?
    Explain how my opinion is necessary or even relevant to your need to support your claim.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #53
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Explain how my opinion is necessary or even relevant to your need to support your claim.
    Let me clarify, then. It's not my claim that there's something wrong with those who have that desire (although I do believe there is). I'm explaining why it's considered a mental disorder even if they don't act on their desires. Put in layman's terms, the psychological profession holds that there's something wrong with those who have those desires. I'm just answering your question, not making a claim

  15. #54
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm explaining why it's considered a mental disorder even if they don't act on their desires. Put in layman's terms, the psychological profession holds that there's something wrong with those who have those desires. I'm just answering your question, not making a claim
    You haven't explained it, and neither has the psychological profession. If you don't have an explanation, that's fine, but don't pretend that my question has been answered.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #55
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You haven't explained it, and neither has the psychological profession. If you don't have an explanation, that's fine, but don't pretend that my question has been answered.
    No, I have explained it. According to the psychological profession, there's something wrong with someone who desires to have sex with people who cannot consent to sex, which would include pedophiles. The desire itself shows that there's something wrong with the person. That's an explanation.

    And if you aren't happy with that explanation or don't think it suffices, that doesn't matter anyway. If you don't know why pedophilia is considered a mental illness because no one has given you an explanation that you are satisfied, it does not amount to an argument that supports that it shouldn't be considered a mental illness. Your personal understanding isn't really relevant.

  17. #56
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You haven't explained it, and neither has the psychological profession. If you don't have an explanation, that's fine, but don't pretend that my question has been answered.
    It's explicitly clear in the definition: "sexual behaviours involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent". In every situation, committing such acts is considered a bad thing, and someone who genuinely has the desire to commit such acts is identified as having a disorder.

  18. #57
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, I have explained it. According to the psychological profession, there's something wrong with someone who desires to have sex with people who cannot consent to sex, which would include pedophiles. The desire itself shows that there's something wrong with the person... Your personal understanding isn't really relevant.
    The op takes issue with the APA definition of a mental disorder hanging on laws covering consent, and in the op I ask "what am I missing". To which you have essentially just pointed to the "psychological profession" and told me that what I think doesn't matter. You've written a lot and contributed nothing. Until you offer something of real substance, I'm done with you.

    ---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    It's explicitly clear in the definition: "sexual behaviours involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent". In every situation, committing such acts is considered a bad thing, and someone who genuinely has the desire to commit such acts is identified as having a disorder.
    If you believe definitions of mental illness hang on violations of law, then there are some things I'd like you to consider. What is and is not a mental illness will change if the laws change. For example, if it became legal to have sex with a young child, then pedophilia would not be a mental illness.

    And if you still think that is logical, consider that homosexuality is not considered a mental illness in the United States, but it would be a mental illness in 74 countries because it is illegal and "is considered a bad thing". (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7033666.html) So a homosexual flying from the United States to Sudan would become mentally ill during the flight, due to having entered airspace of a country with different laws and and a very different cultural view of what is considered "a bad thing".

    Further, can you explain to me why a desire to violate sexual mores would equal mental illness, but violating other legal and cultural taboos would not? Why is sexual desire a special case? For example, if I desire to smoke in a restaurant or other smoking restricted area, I'm wanting to do something illegal and "a bad thing" that could injure others, but you wouldn't say that I have a mental illness, would you?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  20. #58
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The op takes issue with the APA definition of a mental disorder hanging on laws covering consent, and in the op I ask "what am I missing". To which you have essentially just pointed to the "psychological profession" and told me that
    what I think doesn't matter.
    When you ask questions like "what am I missing", you aren't forwarding your thoughts at all but just asking for an explanation. So I gave you an explanation from the professional explanation, per your request

    And you are free to challenge the professional explanation but then that requires an actual challenge, not just more questions.

    You have provided no reason to think that we should buck the professional standard and agree that pedophilia should be considered a mental disorder. I see no challenge from you whatsoever to the professional explanation beyond perhaps a lack of comprehension evidenced by your questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You've written a lot and contributed nothing. Until you offer something of real substance, I'm done with you.
    An appeal to expertise is a valid method of support so I have supported that Pedophilia should be labeled a mental disorder. So I have offered something of substance.

  21. #59
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If you believe definitions of mental illness hang on violations of law, then there are some things I'd like you to consider. What is and is not a mental illness will change if the laws change. For example, if it became legal to have sex with a young child, then pedophilia would not be a mental illness.
    On what basis are you saying that the definition hangs on what the law says? Don't you think that there are deeper societal/moral considerations being made when both making the law against the act and when determining why the desire is a disorder? Also, the text itself is quite clear on it not being related solely to legal aspects, but simple ethical ones: "sexual behaviours involving unwillings persons, or another person’s psychological distress, injury". The definition doesn't use these terms because there are laws which also use these terms. The definition and the law uses these terms because of the ethical reasoning behind both.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So a homosexual flying from the United States to Sudan would become mentally ill during the flight
    That person would already be considered ill by most Sudanese even before taking the flight. All you're saying is that different jurisdictions which hold to different ethics will identify people differently. What's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    For example, if I desire to smoke in a restaurant or other smoking restricted area, I'm wanting to do something illegal and "a bad thing" that could injure others, but you wouldn't say that I have a mental illness, would you?
    If you want to smoke because of some misplaced sense of entitlement, fine, but if you desire to do it because of an uncontrollable urge, or addiction, then one could say you have a problem. Addictions have, for a long time, been considered to be diseases/disorders.

    Further, we're discussing a paedophile who doesn't act on their desires, and whether the unfulfilled desire itself should be considered a bad thing. By actively deciding to not fulfill their desire, they are, in a very real way, admitting, that even they think it's a bad thing, or at least recognizing that society considers it a bad thing. Continuing to have the desire despite such an admission is fairly disorderly, don't you think?
    For example, take something that you enjoy more than anything - maybe a food, or a past-time. Something that, when doing it, you can't focus on anything else, you just love it so much. Now imagine that you've been told that if you do it again, you'll be put away for life. Are you going to continue to do it? Are you going to continue to want to do it? Does you not being able to stop wanting to do it and only not doing it because of the risk not indicate that it's something which is a problem for you?

  22. #60
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    On what basis are you saying that the definition hangs on what the law says?
    Because that is what the APA is doing to define a mental disorder. Read post #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Don't you think that there are deeper societal/moral considerations being made when both making the law against the act and when determining why the desire is a disorder?
    Gee, I hadn't considered that. Do explain how that is happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Also, the text itself is quite clear on it not being related solely to legal aspects, but simple ethical ones: "sexual behaviours involving unwillings persons, or another person’s psychological distress, injury".
    Again, what if there is no act, and the pedophile does not believe he would cause distress or injury? Why should that person be categorized as having a mental disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    The definition doesn't use these terms because there are laws which also use these terms. The definition and the law uses these terms because of the ethical reasoning behind both.
    Don't you think that psychiatric evaluations and classifications should be independent of what the law says?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    That person would already be considered ill by most Sudanese even before taking the flight. All you're saying is that different jurisdictions which hold to different ethics will identify people differently. What's the problem?
    The problem is that according to logic you agree with, the person didn't have a mental disorder while in the US, and then suddenly does at the conclusion of the flight. If that makes sense to you, then tell me why you're okay with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    If you want to smoke because of some misplaced sense of entitlement, fine, but if you desire to do it because of an uncontrollable urge, or addiction, then one could say you have a problem. Addictions have, for a long time, been considered to be diseases/disorders.
    Okay, you got me there. Well done. So let's change it to a few beers before driving home. I want to go out with friends, have some drinks, and drive myself home. I really like the feeling of being inebriated, and the social fun that goes with it. I'm not an alcoholic, but I enjoy a good time. I'd drink enough to be over the legal limit and the law says I would be a danger to other people. I don't think I would be a danger to others because I drive real well under the influence of alcohol, but I decide not to go out because I don't want to get arrested. Does all that mean that I have a mental disorder? If yes, explain. If not, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Further, we're discussing a paedophile who doesn't act on their desires, and whether the unfulfilled desire itself should be considered a bad thing. By actively deciding to not fulfill their desire, they are, in a very real way, admitting, that even they think it's a bad thing, or at least recognizing that society considers it a bad thing.
    The latter. I'm talking about someone who does NOT think it is a bad thing and doesn't think he would be causing harm, but chooses not to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Continuing to have the desire despite such an admission is fairly disorderly, don't you think?
    Nope. Sounds like he's doing okay by keeping his actions within socially acceptable boundaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    For example, take something that you enjoy more than anything - maybe a food, or a past-time. Something that, when doing it, you can't focus on anything else, you just love it so much. Now imagine that you've been told that if you do it again, you'll be put away for life. Are you going to continue to do it? Are you going to continue to want to do it? Does you not being able to stop wanting to do it and only not doing it because of the risk not indicate that it's something which is a problem for you?
    A problem? Maybe. A mental disorder? No. We all really want to do things we just can't do because of the risks involved. I really want to drive 150mph, skydive and experience what its like to get away with a major jewel heist, but those are all pretty darn risky. Do any of those indicate a mental disorder? I don't think so.

    I think it would be a lot more interesting to talk about the deeper societal/moral considerations in play when categorizing people as having mental disorders, like you mentioned earlier. Tell me more about that.
    Last edited by evensaul; November 6th, 2017 at 12:44 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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