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  1. #81
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    So you have no problems with animated or VR pedophilia acts? Seriously?
    Why does that matter? Would it matter if I have a problem with one guy playing hide the sausage with another guy's ass? What I or you think of someone else's sexual orientation has no bearing on whether it is a mental illness, right?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  3. #82
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why does that matter? Would it matter if I have a problem with one guy playing hide the sausage with another guy's ass? What I or you think of someone else's sexual orientation has no bearing on whether it is a mental illness, right?
    Of course it matters - whatís commonly regarded as a ďdisorderĒ is imagining about conscious beings that donít exist, talking to them frequently or otherwise behaving as if such a being is always present. Some call this disorder being religious; others think that talking to oneself or with imaginary beings is actually a mental disorder.

    There is a societal aspect in describing something as an ďillnessĒ and itís usually related to whether those thoughts are harmful to oneself or others. A sociopath or a psychopath is mentally ill whether they act on their illness to harm others or not. The potential for harm is still there and treatment is necessary.

    And because religion is generally considered a good thing, or at least a harmless thing, speaking to oneís god (or other associated imaginary creatures) isnít considered something that needs treatment. It is the same for homosexuality.

    So now we have two criteria, consent and harm to others or oneself. Hopefully, that will clear things up. I donít know what you hope to gain calling homosexuality an illness, whilst maintaining, I trust, that talking to imaginary gods isnít.


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  4. #83
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    There is a societal aspect in describing something as an “illness” and it’s usually related to whether those thoughts are harmful to oneself or others...
    The celibate pedophile I've described is not harmful to anyone.

    The rest of your post isn't worth a response. (I was beginning to think you were better than that crap.)
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #84
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The celibate pedophile I've described is not harmful to anyone.

    The rest of your post isn't worth a response. (I was beginning to think you were better than that crap.)
    Then neither does a celibate homosexual. Not sure what your point is. Acting on a disorder has nothing to do whether itís a disorder in the first place.

    Also, the rest of the post is very relevant - what is considered a Ďdisorderí is mostly driven by societal norms. An aggressive society, as we were once, would consider weakness and cowardice a disorder.

    Thatís why we have the term in the first place, to distinguish between those mental conditions that need to be corrected and those that donít. Religious convictions that lean towards the unusual or harmful are considered disorders: such as suicide bombers, or those people that believe theyíre Jesus. But normal religious folk are considered fine because they donít really hurt anyone.

    And itís not crap to say so - you canít have it both ways and offend homosexuals (which are socially accepted) by comparing them to pedophiles (which are not); and then turn around and complain when a similar comparison is made between delusional people and religious people. Now that youíve seen what it feels like, perhaps you may want to temper your language a bit!

    To ignore consent and harm just puts everything into a single bucket of mental disorder. Thereís a reason why there are medical practitioners to fix pedophilia and non to fix homosexuality. In the former, we want it fixed so that they actually remain celibate, and in the latter weíre fine if theyíre not.

  6. #85
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    It sounds to me like you’re arguing pedophilia is rightly classified as a mental disorder because society does not approve of it, in contrast with homosexuality which is now accepted.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #86
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have heard of kids in kindergarten having sex in class. I realize this is outside of the Op, but the side note about "can't consent ever" came up. Did these children consent?

    ---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------


    You misunderstand what I mean by consent. A child cannot comprehend what sex is and what the ramifications of having sex are. I'm not sure what kind of school allows kindergarten children to have sex in class, but I can almost guarantee that none of these children understood it. That is why there is an age limit in the first place.

    Though I understand your point and agree in general, how do we know that EVERY person that was attracted to a child would abandon them as they grew up?
    Obviously, we can't be 100 percent certain; however, based on past instances where children were kidnapped and held for most of their childhood or families where a parent molests one child then moves on to the sibling once the first child comes of age, this is generally the case. The pedophile feels the need to move on from the child once the child is no longer a child (the most famous case of this was Steven Stayner).

    ---------- Post added at 02:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Consent is irrelevant if a pedophile swears off any interaction with children. The celibate pedophile may have no emotional problems related to the sexual orientation or the celibacy, absolutely no mental anguish or discomfort or any kind of problem whatsoever, and yet be labeled as mentally ill. That is just not logical.
    Firstly, most pedophiles indulge in their obsessions. Secondly, if a person feels attracted to children yet does not feel mental anguish (other than from fear of social judgment), then that person is not a pedophile. One of the requirements is the mental anguish.

    ---------- Post added at 02:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why does that matter? Would it matter if I have a problem with one guy playing hide the sausage with another guy's ass? What I or you think of someone else's sexual orientation has no bearing on whether it is a mental illness, right?
    Actually, it does matter...and I'll tell you why. We can never be certain that said pedophile will refrain. Most pedophiles act on their desires, and they won't be public about it. When they do, it harms a child and causes irreparable damage. It creates many victims.

    Also, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation; it is a mental disorder. It is an attraction to and an obsession with innocence.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

  8. #87
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It sounds to me like youíre arguing pedophilia is rightly classified as a mental disorder because society does not approve of it, in contrast with homosexuality which is now accepted.
    Itís in the word ďdisorderĒ ; ie not ordered, or correct behavior. Why do you think that homosexuality is no longer considered a problem? Itís because society has moved onto real problems to resolve rather than perceived personal moral stances on moral sexual behavior.

  9. #88
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Why do you think that homosexuality is no longer considered a problem? It’s because society has moved onto real problems to resolve rather than perceived personal moral stances on moral sexual behavior.
    I think we're in agreement - that the APA classifies pedophilia as a mental disorder to match public opinion, and has reclassified homosexuality as an acceptable variant because society now accepts it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #89
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think we're in agreement - that the APA classifies pedophilia as a mental disorder to match public opinion, and has reclassified homosexuality as an acceptable variant because society now accepts it.
    I think thatís fair but I doubt that they would homosexuality is a *variant* of pedophilia. You do know that pedophilia isnít exclusive to same sex attractions, right?


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  11. #90
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    No, sorry, I didn't mean that homosexuality is a variant of pedophilia. Not at all. I meant that homosexuality is an acceptable variant of sexual orientation.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #91
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, sorry, I didn't mean that homosexuality is a variant of pedophilia. Not at all. I meant that homosexuality is an acceptable variant of sexual orientation.
    We cool!


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  13. #92
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    Secondly, if a person feels attracted to children yet does not feel mental anguish (other than from fear of social judgment), then that person is not a pedophile. One of the requirements is the mental anguish.
    I don't believe this is correct. Please support.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    Actually, it does matter...and I'll tell you why. We can never be certain that said pedophile will refrain. Most pedophiles act on their desires, and they won't be public about it.
    Even if true, which I'd need you to support with evidence, that isn't relevant to whether it is a mental disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    Also, pedophilia is not a sexual orientation... It is an attraction to and an obsession with innocence.
    Are you claiming there is no sexual attraction or obsession? Please support.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #93
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I don't believe this is correct. Please support.

    Even if true, which I'd need you to support with evidence, that isn't relevant to whether it is a mental disorder.

    Are you claiming there is no sexual attraction or obsession? Please support.
    After performing research on my own and not referring to the OP, I have discovered this:

    Diagnostic Criteria for Pedophilic Disorder DSM-5 302.2 (F65.4)

    The individual experiences intense sexually arousing fantasies or urges involving sexual activity

    • with prepubescent children, over a period of at least 6 months.
    • The individual has acted on these sexual urges, or the urges have caused serious distress.
    • He or she is at least 16 years of age and at least 5 years older than his or her victim. Note: This does not pertain to individuals in late adolescence who are involved in ongoing sexual relationships with, say, 12 or 13-year-olds.


    The DSM requires an individual to meet all three of these criteria.

    http://thriveworks.com/blog/pedophilic-disorder/

    Please note, I am not a psychiatrist, and I explained in my original post that I asked a psychiatrist what makes pedophilia a disorder rather than a sexual orientation. The response was that pedophiles are not actually attracted to children, rather they are attracted to and obsessed with the innocence that the child represents.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

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  16. #94
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    I think what you've presented is a description of the disorder, not a definition of pedophilia. If I'm reading correctly, the upshot is that not all pedophiles have a disorder. So the pedophile I've described who does not act on the sexual attraction and does not have mental distress, does NOT have a mental disorder. Would you agree?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #95
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think what you've presented is a description of the disorder, not a definition of pedophilia. If I'm reading correctly, the upshot is that not all pedophiles have a disorder. So the pedophile I've described who does not act on the sexual attraction and does not have mental distress, does NOT have a mental disorder. Would you agree?
    Indeed, I would agree.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

  18. #96
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    We cool!
    Okay, but ... If the labeling of any condition as a mental disorder rests on public opinion, then homosexuality really was a mental disorder (and still is in much of the American heartland). Are you cool with that? Again, as I tried to explain earlier, it makes no sense that a condition is a mental disorder in one geographic area and is not in another, or really was a mental disorder and now is not.
    Last edited by evensaul; February 10th, 2018 at 12:29 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #97
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    Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, but ... If the labeling of any condition as a mental disorder rests on public opinion, then homosexuality really was a mental disorder (and still is in much of the American heartland). Are you cool with that?
    I definitely agree with that. In fact, as I pointed out before, some Christian groups have anti gay treatments. Itís certainly regarded as a some kind of curable illness thatís at best fixable and at worse constrained in some quarters. And the rest of the civilized world disagree!

    At least treating it (wrongly) as a disorder is better than chucking them off high buildings as some are wont to do. But you see the progression of perception and how it is treated, right?

    Again, as I tried to explain earlier, it makes no sense that a condition is a mental disorder in one geographic area and is not in another, or really was a mental disorder and now is not.
    Of course it makes sense that we learn about our psychology and change our minds and that some things that were considered bad a long time ago is no longer the case. It even makes sense that there are geographical differences because not all humanity learns at the same rate and we still have to erode hundreds of years of cultural and sometimes religious ideas.

    Being stupid, or being a ďmoronĒ was once considered a disorder. The word retarded went from medicine to being an insult to a word we are not even allowed to use any more. Doctors used to give women orgasms to cure their temperaments. Lunacy used to be a real medical term and the now closed asylums were full of people that had various afflictions that are now seen differently.

    Today, we are in the midst of understanding Gender Identity Disorder - is it curable Thing or does society have to adapt? Weíve known about drag queens for a long time and Thailandís third gender (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender) has been fully accepted as it is accepted in other cultures without it requiring medical attention or cure.

    Iím shocked you do not know this! The world isnít a single set of ideas about anything and the human mind is one of the most complex organs we have. Certainly the ideas about medicine and psychology have changed and that should be no real surprise either.

    That you canít get around different people having different ideas and disagreements about complex things is a little odd given your involvement in a debate site! Anyway, I hope everything is cleared up now: you do not need to recoil in shock and horror that ideas change and people around the world or even within a single country can have very different ideas and responses to the same human phenomena.

    If I may pry into your mental view of the world and from observing how conservative Christians operate for one minute. It seems that you are looking at science and medicine and psychology (which isnít even always a tea science anyway) as if they are biblical texts or unchanging documents such as the constitution. The real world doesnít operate like that. We are constantly seeking reasons for behaviors, constantly fighting over why things should be the way they are and then constantly changing our minds. And then doing it all again. I am genuinely fascinated as to why this is so hard to grasp for you.
    Last edited by SharmaK; February 10th, 2018 at 04:48 PM.

  20. #98
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think we're in agreement - that the APA classifies pedophilia as a mental disorder to match public opinion, and has reclassified homosexuality as an acceptable variant because society now accepts it.
    I don't believe this is true. The APA classifies any disorder so that it can be effectively treated. Psychology is still evolving and will continue to evolve as we learn more about the human mind.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

  21. #99
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    I don't believe this is true. The APA classifies any disorder so that it can be effectively treated. Psychology is still evolving and will continue to evolve as we learn more about the human mind.
    What makes you think the APA is free from political and public pressure, or that the APA board of directors and voting members do not let their own social values effect their vote on APA positions?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  22. #100
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What makes you think the APA is free from political and public pressure, or that the APA board of directors and voting members do not let their own social values effect their vote on APA positions?
    I suppose there is some public and political pressure. You make an excellent point. I would hope that the APA does its best to be free from that if psychology is ever to be a serious science.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

 

 
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