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  1. #101
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, but ... If the labeling of any condition as a mental disorder rests on public opinion, then homosexuality really was a mental disorder (and still is in much of the American heartland). Are you cool with that? Again, as I tried to explain earlier, it makes no sense that a condition is a mental disorder in one geographic area and is not in another, or really was a mental disorder and now is not.
    But then the case that whether the current categorization is based primarily on anything other than objective facts and a reasonable definition of what is and is not a mental disorder has not been effectively made.

    From all evidence, pedophilia is considered to be a mental disorder because it is inherently harmful. If a pedophile acts on his desires, someone else will be harmed. Even if individual pedophiles can refrain doing anyone any harm does not change the fact that pedophilia leads to clear harm and that's why it's accurately labeled as a disorder.

    And on the other hand, there is no inherent harm in homosexuality. It is not inherently harmful to be gay or engage in gay sexual activity.

    While a case can be made that public opinion has had some influence on the determinations, that in no way means that the current understanding of what is and is not a disorder is so influenced on that opinion that the current understanding is wrong in some way. Just suggesting that this MIGHT be the case falls far, far, short of demonstrating that it actually is the case.

    I can accept the notion that in 1973(?) the APA took another look at whether homosexuality is a disorder because of public pressure. But that in no way means that once they did take a look and studied the issue further, their conclusions were not based on what their studies and known facts them to believe. And the notion that DECADES later, the current scientific understanding of homosexuality is based on something other than what the evidence clearly shows has no apparent basis in fact.

  2. #102
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Mican, the APA's DSM-5 appears to disagree with you, in that is does not say that all pedophiles have a disorder, but rather only those who act on their sexual orientation.

    And as to whether the APA is still malleable to public pressure, it is dropping the identification of pedophilia as a sexual orientation due to... public pressure: http://jaapl.org/content/42/4/404 (paragraph 5 and 13-15)
    Last edited by evensaul; February 11th, 2018 at 11:24 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #103
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, the APA's DSM-5 appears to disagree with you, in that is does not say that all pedophiles have a disorder, but rather only those who act on their sexual orientation.
    That's fine. It doesn't effect my point either way. I'm saying that the reason pedophilia (or pedophilic disorder) is considered a disorder is because of the harm that it causes. The notion that it's based on some other criteria such as public opinion on pedophilia or what the laws are is not supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And as to whether the APA is still malleable to public pressure, it is dropping the identification of pedophilia as a sexual orientation due to... public pressure: http://jaapl.org/content/42/4/404 (paragraph 5)
    I didn't say that the APA is never influenced by public pressure. I'm saying that there's no evidence that public pressure is the primary reason that pedophilia is labeled a disorder. Nor is there evidence that public pressure is the primary reason that homosexuality is not considered a disorder.

  4. #104
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I didn't say that the APA is never influenced by public pressure. I'm saying that there's no evidence that public pressure is the primary reason that pedophilia is labeled a disorder.
    First, pedophilia is NOT labeled a disorder. You need to stop making that claim, because it has been soundly rebutted. Pedophila is not a disorder. Pedophilic Disorder is a disorder. But pedophilic sexual attraction is not. Second, if the APA has a history in the past and present of yielding to public pressure, there is reason to believe that public pressure may in fact be the primary reason for its classifications on controversial subjects. That belief is also supported by the way APA treats homosexuality and pedophilia differently. You won't agree, but there is ample reason to think so.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #105
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    First, pedophilia is NOT labeled a disorder. You need to stop making that claim, because it has been soundly rebutted. Pedophila is not a disorder. Pedophilic Disorder is a disorder. But pedophilic sexual attraction is not.
    Since this distinction is irrelevant to my argument, I was just using the words interchangeably. If it's that big a deal, I will use the acronym PD for "Pedophilic Disorder" and use that term exclusively.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Second, if the APA has a history in the past and present of yielding to public pressure, there is reason to believe that public pressure may in fact be the primary reason for its classifications on controversial subjects.
    I note that your argument says "if", "may in fact" and "reason to believe". You aren't even stating that it's a fact that PD's classification is based on public pressure, let alone providing anything resembling support that that is the case here.

    And your argument is about controversial classifications. It's hardly controversial to label PD a disorder since it clearly fits the definition of a "disorder". Are you suggesting that the APA didn't think that something that is clearly, obviously harmful should be classified as a disorder but then the public spoke up and made them do it against their will. There is no "reason believe" that at all. In fact, if that's what happened, it would be pretty easy to support since one can note the date when the APA changed its mind about PD.




    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That belief is also supported by the way APA treats homosexuality and pedophilia differently. You won't agree, but there is ample reason to think so.
    They treat homosexuality and pedophilia different because they different. And I disagree that there is any good reason to question this so if you are going to make an argument regarding this, you will need to give more than your opinion.

  6. #106
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Well, it's not 100% certain, but the evidence is strong enough for me to believe the APA has folded to public opinion by creating a PD classification, treating it differently than homosexuality. I really don't see any significant difference between homosexuality and pedophilia in terms of being an aberrant form of sexual orientation. Homosexuals just have stronger activism and better PR efforts.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #107
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, it's not 100% certain, but the evidence is strong enough for me to believe the APA has folded to public opinion by creating a PD classification, treating it differently than homosexuality.
    And will you be supporting your beliefs on the matter by presenting such evidence on this thread? If not, then your position fails due to lack of support.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I really don't see any significant difference between homosexuality and pedophilia in terms of being an aberrant form of sexual orientation.
    But then you've provided no reason for one to consider homosexuality "aberrant".

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Homosexuals just have stronger activism and better PR efforts.
    Well, if you want to support any of your positions, please present the evidence. Otherwise, all of your positions fail for lack of support. I will consider providing rebuttals to your evidence when you present it.

  8. #108
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, it's not 100% certain, but the evidence is strong enough for me to believe the APA has folded to public opinion by creating a PD classification, treating it differently than homosexuality. I really don't see any significant difference between homosexuality and pedophilia in terms of being an aberrant form of sexual orientation. Homosexuals just have stronger activism and better PR efforts.
    The problem is that you’re easily confused, as you admit, that ideas behind mental conditions can change through time or even geographically. It’s telling that you have not responded this fact from my earlier post. Perhaps you missed it. I listed several examples where aberrant forms of behavior at one point in time but now considered normal in another.

    “aberrance” is usually determined socially anyway. So I’m glad that you’re finally admitting that your views have a social component to it and that it’s not an objective statement of fact.

    Homosexuality have travelled the same path as mixed race marriages, which were at one time not only aberrant but reviled. Women in the workplace was also aberrant but with the feminist movement, it is very common. Atheism too was once considered an aberration on society, yet we live in country that embraces secularism as the ONLY way different religions can live together.

    Talking to oneself is usually considered strange and aberrant behavior too; but only when speaking to non-religious entities. So we’re not always consistent in how we treat aberrant behavior.

    The common theme is social acceptance brought about by either tradition, activism or just good PR. The other common theme is that these activities reveal that these things are not harmful aberrations at all but just another aspect of humanity that doesn’t need to be hidden away, or shamed, or compared to actual harmful acts.

    Not sure why you need to continue seeing homosexuality and pedophilia in the same bucket but please don’t stop so that we properly classify the social ghetto you get your ideas from.

  9. #109
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Mican, I've supported my position plenty. That you refuse to see the truth is neither surprising nor concerning.

    Sharm, I think just about everything you've said in this thread supports my position. You don't like the conclusions, but it appears we're in agreement on the underlying facts, so I don't see anything to argue with you about.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #110
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, I've supported my position plenty. That you refuse to see the truth is neither surprising or concerning.
    Claims of support is not support. So no, you haven't supported your positions.

    I figure no evidence will be forthcoming.

  11. #111
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Claims of support is not support. So no, you haven't supported your positions.

    I figure no evidence will be forthcoming.
    I've posted supports. Nobody made you the judge of adequacy. I'm done with you here.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #112
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I've posted supports. Nobody made you the judge of adequacy. I'm done with you here.
    Claims of support is not support. And as I said, I figure no evidence will be forthcoming and I was right.

  13. #113
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sharm, I think just about everything you've said in this thread supports my position. You don't like the conclusions, but it appears we're in agreement on the underlying facts, so I don't see anything to argue with you about.
    Just be nice to people. You understand that comparing religion to delusion is not a nice thing; there’s no reason for you to continue putting H and P into the same classification. You have to realize by now that H is much more common that one used to expect so it’s hard to even call it an aberration, or even rare any more.

    Where as P is much less common, except, strangely enough, in religious circles, where a disparity in power structures makes it easier hide and protect and escape from.


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  14. #114
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Sharm, are you really trying to use relative frequency to both legitimize homosexuality and delegitimize pedophilia? Really? Even homosexual activists don't put their percentage at above 8%, and it more often estimated at 2-3%. Pedophilia is estimated at less than 5% of the population, but may be higher than homosexuality. And yes, they are both aberrations from normal heterosexuality. That is not a condemnation of either, but just a fact.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #115
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sharm, are you really trying to use relative frequency to both legitimize homosexuality and delegitimize pedophilia? Really? Even homosexual activists don't put their percentage at above 8%, and it more often estimated at 2-3%. Pedophilia is estimated at less than 5% of the population, and may be higher than homosexuality. And yes, they are both aberrations from normal heterosexuality. That is not a condemnation of either, but just a fact.
    Your numbers seem to be very high. Are you sure you’re not confusing pedophilia, the sexual attraction to children under 12, with child abuse or underaged sex? They’re different things, I hope you realize.


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  16. #116
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Your numbers seem to be very high. Are you sure you’re not...
    Dude, you are the one claiming homosexual frequency is high and therefore homosexuality is normal, and that pedophilia frequency is low. Maybe you should do your own research if you're going to make that argument. Until then, your claim is both unsupported and refuted.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #117
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    Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Dude, you are the one claiming homosexual frequency is high and therefore homosexuality is normal, and that pedophilia frequency is low. Maybe you should do your own research if you're going to make that argument. Until then, your claim is both unsupported and refuted.
    As I suspected, you don’t have right statistics at all, your rebuttal is unsupported and most certainly not refuted!

    Interestingly, in doing more research I find:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia:
    In response to misinterpretations that the American Psychiatric Association considers pedophilia a sexual orientation because of wording in its printed DSM-5 manual, which distinguishes between paraphilia and what it calls "paraphilic disorder", subsequently forming a division of "pedophilia" and "pedophilic disorder", the association commented: "'[S]exual orientation' is not a term used in the diagnostic criteria for pedophilic disorder and its use in the DSM-5 text discussion is an error and should read 'sexual interest.'" They added, "In fact, APA considers pedophilic disorder a 'paraphilia,' not a 'sexual orientation.' This error will be corrected in the electronic version of DSM-5 and the next printing of the manual." They said they strongly support efforts to criminally prosecute those who sexually abuse and exploit children and adolescents, and "also support continued efforts to develop treatments for those with pedophilic disorder with the goal of preventing future acts of abuse."[29]
    So it seems that your propensity to conflate homosexuality and pedophilia together is wrong. It’s not a sexual orientation at all. Would you like to withdraw your prior statements on the matter?

    Have you seriously been barking up the wrong tree for this whole thread?


    I also find that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was 12 when she was pregnant. Is this another religious exception and free pass that religion gets or are we allowed to call Jospeh a pedophile?

  18. #118
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    So it seems that your propensity to conflate homosexuality and pedophilia together is wrong. It’s not a sexual orientation at all. Would you like to withdraw your prior statements on the matter?
    I addressed this issue in posts #24, #29, and #35. Read those and the linked material.

    A little more background: Homosexual activists and their liberal supporters have done a lot of work towards making "sexual orientation" a protected demographic, so that homosexuals will be protected against employment and housing discrimination. But that has caused a significant and growing concern among, well, just about everyone up to speed on the issue, that courts will rule pedophiles, necrophiliacs, zoophiliacs, and every other aberrant sexual orientation should also be protected. Do you want known pedophiles to be hired at your kid's daycare or elementary school? Probably not. So there was intense pressure on the APA to alter the description of pedophiliac sexual orientation to "interest". They're making the change, and everyone will do a wink-wink nudge-nudge saying, "Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation" while knowing damn well that it is. And that is a perfectly clear example of how the APA caves to public pressure on heated social issues.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #119
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    Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I addressed this issue in posts #24, #29, and #35. Read those and the linked material.

    A little more background: Homosexual activists and their liberal supporters have done a lot of work towards making "sexual orientation" a protected demographic, so that homosexuals will be protected against employment and housing discrimination. But that has caused a significant and growing concern among, well, just about everyone up to speed on the issue, that courts will rule pedophiles, necrophiliacs, zoophiliacs, and every other aberrant sexual orientation should also be protected. Do you want known pedophiles to be hired at your kid's daycare or elementary school? Probably not. So there was intense pressure on the APA to alter the description of pedophiliac sexual orientation to "interest". They're making the change, and everyone will do a wink-wink nudge-nudge saying, "Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation" while knowing damn well that it is. And that is a perfectly clear example of how the APA caves to public pressure on heated social issues.
    There seems to be a lot of issues about naming things the right way. But we both already agree that it is social in nature so why don’t you go along with what society has deemed to be a fitting description and categorization?

    On the one hand, it is obvious speaking to oneself and believing in something that doesn’t exist but acting as if it does is by definition a delusion. Yet you go along with the flow that praying is not a delusion and neither is believing in Gods and angels and ghosts and monsters. It’s kinda obvious that Joseph, Jesus’ father, is also an actual pedophile too, right? Yet, somehow, your non-comment on the matter is giving him a free pass (no doubt, also using “societal-norms” as an excuse). Why is that? Why such claims, using your same exact logic, get called “crap” by your very self when I brought it up earlier.

    The point is that you appear to be hypocritical in how you are treating homosexuality versus religion. And that needs explaining. Please do so.

    All this other nonsense about whether or not homosexuality and pedophilia are orientations or deviant or non-normal are irrelevant. No-one wants pedophiles looking after their children obviously and neither should there be an issue for homosexuals. I see no problem with a necrophiliacs or zoophiliacs either. In fact, I’d have more of a problem with normal heterosexuals than any other so-called deviant since they’re the ones more likely to cause issues as my daughter grows older.

    The people that fear that necrophiliacs and zoophiliacs are going to get protections are clearly deluded and ignorant about sexual matters anyway. I think those proclivities are already so frowned upon that and very rare that I think it’s really a straw man argument about having lost the culture war on homosexuality.

    If you’re attacking homosexuality because of other kinds of sexuality you don’t approve of then you will always lose the argument because the larger society, world society, is beginning to learn more and are responding with sympathy. Homosexuality should be no more an issue than if someone likes S&M or prefers fat ladies or whatever.

    Informed consent is usually a good place to start about whether something should be accepted or not and if we have to fiddle the books a bit, which we do for religion anyway, something which no doubt, you’re benefiting from, then so be it.

    Otherwise, concede that you are delusional and that Joseph was a pedophile.


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    Last edited by SharmaK; February 11th, 2018 at 04:18 PM.

  20. #120
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I addressed this issue in posts #24, #29, and #35. Read those and the linked material.

    A little more background: Homosexual activists and their liberal supporters have done a lot of work towards making "sexual orientation" a protected demographic, so that homosexuals will be protected against employment and housing discrimination. But that has caused a significant and growing concern among, well, just about everyone up to speed on the issue, that courts will rule pedophiles, necrophiliacs, zoophiliacs, and every other aberrant sexual orientation should also be protected. Do you want known pedophiles to be hired at your kid's daycare or elementary school? Probably not. So there was intense pressure on the APA to alter the description of pedophiliac sexual orientation to "interest". They're making the change, and everyone will do a wink-wink nudge-nudge saying, "Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation" while knowing damn well that it is. And that is a perfectly clear example of how the APA caves to public pressure on heated social issues.
    It isn't just public pressure. The APA also evolves classifications over time as psychology learns new things. If it doesn't, we might as well go back to the 1800's where a woman experiencing Post-Partum depression was simply classified as having "hysteria" or where we might have lobotomized a schizophrenic. It isn't always about public pressure.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

 

 
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