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  1. #121
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    There seems to be a lot of issues about naming things the right way. But we both already agree that it is social in nature so why don’t you go along with what society has deemed to be a fitting description and categorization?
    The op takes issue with the way APA classifies pedophilia. So no, I'm not going to just agree to something that I think is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    On the one hand, it is obvious speaking to oneself and believing in something that doesn’t exist but acting as if it does is by definition a delusion. Yet you go along with the flow that praying is not a delusion and neither is believing in Gods and angels and ghosts and monsters. It’s kinda obvious that Joseph, Jesus’ father, is also an actual pedophile too, right? Yet, somehow, your non-comment on the matter is giving him a free pass (no doubt, also using “societal-norms” as an excuse). Why is that? Why do you call such claims, using your same exact logic, get called “crap” by your very self when I brought it up earlier.

    The point is that you appear to be hypocritical in how you are treating homosexuality versus religion. And that needs explaining. Please do so.
    Trying to drag my religious views into this thread is a Red Herring fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    All this other nonsense about whether or not homosexuality and pedophilia are orientations or deviant or non-normal are irrelevant.
    They are a side issue, but part of the context of the explanation for APA making changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    No-one wants pedophiles looking after their children obviously
    Exactly the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    The people that fear that necrophiliacs and zoophiliacs are going to get protections are clearly deluded and ignorant about sexual matters anyway. I think those proclivities are already so frowned upon that and very rare that I think it’s really a straw man argument about having lost the culture war on homosexuality.
    Do you even know what a Straw Man is, Sharm? Apparently not. Nec/Zoo were part of an explanation and context, not an argument. If you don't get that, then, oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    If you’re attacking homosexuality because of other kinds of sexuality you don’t approve of then you will always lose the argument because the larger society, world society, is beginning to learn more and are responding with sympathy. Homosexuality should be no more an issue than if someone likes S&M or prefers fat ladies or whatever.
    Now that IS a Straw Man fallacy, because I have not attacked homosexuality in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    ... if we have to fiddle the books a bit... then so be it.
    Exactly the attitude of the public and the APA, and why their description of Pedophilia Disorder is a fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Otherwise, concede that you are delusional and that Joseph was a pedophile.
    I don't understand why you and Pissass are so intent on bringing religion into every thread. If it is such a big deal to you, then start your own thread, because it is just another red herring in this one.

    ---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    It isn't just public pressure. The APA also evolves classifications over time as psychology learns new things. If it doesn't, we might as well go back to the 1800's where a woman experiencing Post-Partum depression was simply classified as having "hysteria" or where we might have lobotomized a schizophrenic. It isn't always about public pressure.
    From what I can tell, and from what I've offered as support in this thread, on the hot-button social issues of homosexuality and pedophilia the APA has folded to activism when the heat became too great.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #122
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The op takes issue with the way APA classifies pedophilia. So no, I'm not going to just agree to something that I think is wrong.
    Oh. Is that the issue? That you disagree with how an organization whose job it is to do one thing? In that case, it's quite possible, if not likely, that you don't know all the issues. Are you a psychologist?

    And given all the other reasons from history about how classifications are basically take their cues from society, which I trust, you should fully understand by now, then you're really disagreeing with society, using this classification, which impacts you none, as a proxy argument.

    Trying to drag my religious views into this thread is a Red Herring fallacy.
    Your personal religion has nothing to do with it. I am pointing out the free pass religion gets in some delusions and hysteria. Do you agree that Joseph is technically a pedophile? The challenge still stands that you have to explain why you support APA not being consistent on religion but not being consistent on Homosexuality. This is nothing to do with your personal beliefs but how you are dealing with the APA's inconsistencies.


    Do you even know what a Straw Man is, Sharm? Apparently not. Nec/Zoo were part of an explanation and context, not an argument. If you don't get that, then, oh well.
    Putting N/Z/P in the same bucket as a H is a straw man. You're saying the other three will become the norm just as H has. It's a terrible view of the world from those people you are trying to explain.

    Now that IS a Straw Man fallacy, because I have not attacked homosexuality in this thread.
    Hmm.

    Exactly the attitude of the public and the APA, and why their description of Pedophilia Disorder is a fraud.
    Yes, which is what they do all the time! Even for religion. If the APA is a fraud then so be it - don't use it. I don't even know why you think this is even a issue to discuss!

    I don't understand why you and Pissass are so intent on bringing religion into every thread. If it is such a big deal to you, then start your own thread, because it is just another red herring in this one.
    I have explained multiple times that religious acts can be treated as hysteria or delusional. I have challenged you to explain your hypocrisy on the matter and it's not a red herring. It is literally the same argument you are making about P but replacing it with religion.

  3. #123
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Sharm, your posts have devolved into a scattershot of red herrings that are not worth my taking time to respond. Up your game, or be ignored. Your choice.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #124
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    Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sharm, your posts have devolved into a scattershot of red herrings that are not worth my taking time to respond. Up your game, or be ignored. Your choice.
    Hmm. Iím disappointed that you can dish it but canít take it. I think youíve realized your position is either unsupported or hypocritical or even pointless.

    I end with the DSM-5 definition of Delusional Disorder:
    A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly held despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not ordinarily accepted by other members of the persons's culture or subculture (i.e., it is not an article of religious faith). When a false belief involves a value judgment, it is regarded as a delusion only when the judgment is so extreme as to defy credibility. Delusional conviction can sometimes be inferred from an overvalued idea (in which case the individual has an unreasonable belief or idea but does not hold it as firmly as is the case with a delusion). (DSM-5, p.819)
    Note the get out of jail free card religion gets: The belief is not ordinarily accepted by other members of the persons's culture or subculture (i.e., it is not an article of religious faith).

    This is no different a concession to saying that P is not an orientation; itís bowing to the same societal norms and consistent with the goal of DSM, which is to describe problem areas.

    Itís unfortunate that you have to resort to insults to end your involvement in your own thread but until you see the bigger picture you will always end up being frustrated at the world: you are not the only point of view in this world - your earlier surprise that diagnoses change in time and can be different within the same geographic region tells me that you need to step back and look at how you approach other problems and not be so dogmatic.

    This isnít the first thread that youíve behaved ungenerously (the other one being your flawed claim that atheists pray) and that speaks volumes about how you conduct yourself: as a brat that takes his toys away when they donít get their way or if the worldís responses arenít to your liking. Please try and grow up by the time we get to our next encounter - we had reached a point of agreement and then you had to spoil it all.
    Last edited by SharmaK; February 11th, 2018 at 04:41 PM.

  5. #125
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Again, stay on thread topic if you want to be taken seriously. Or if there are other topics you want to discuss, then start a new debate topic in another thread.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #126
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    Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Itís the same topic: why is DSM inconsistent in the way with its descriptions of disorders. Answer: new information and social norms.

    You disagree with it because you think P & H are the same in that theyíre sexual orientations and the DSM should therefore treat them the same. Yet for religion, where DSM gives it literally a free pass, you are fine with that inconsistency.

    You have to be consistent in your understanding of DSM and

    A) accept that DSM is correct to take into account societal norms in how it treats P, and by extension religion is correctly not treated as a delusion.

    Or

    B) continue to say that DSM is wrong about P and by extension agree that religion is a delusion.

    You canít have it both ways. Though since you havenít conceded your OP, I have to take it that you believe religion is a delusion and the DSM shouldnít be treating it differently. Your call.

    To say this point isnít relevant is to not understand your own OP.

    *********

    Just for grins, I rewrote your OP, keeping much of the same logic you used. Interestingly, many of the characterizations (persecurtory, referential, grandiose, eroani, nihilistic, somatic) all have their counterparts in common religious behaviors and activities. It's little wonder they had to add the get out of jail clause later on. But I hope that you're seeing my point now - that your OP and my rewrite have the same questions.


    Definition of praying:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/praying

    : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgivingThe American Psychiatric Association defines a delusional disorder as a condition in which people
    https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview
    least 1 month of delusions but no other psychotic symptoms, according to the American Psychiatric Associationís Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5). [1]Delusions are false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary; these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture. Delusions can be characterized as persecutory (i.e., belief that one is going to be harmed by an individual, organization or group), referential (i.e., belief that gestures, comments, or environmental cues are directed at oneself), grandiose (i.e., belief that the individual has exceptional abilities, wealth, or fame), erotomanic (i.e., a false belief that another individual is in love with him/her), nihilistic (i.e., a conviction that a major catastrophe will occur), or somatic (i.e., beliefs focused on bodily function or sensation). Because cognitive organization and reality resting are otherwise intact in delusional disorder, it has been described in the literature as "partial psychosis."


    The above means that a big group of people, crazy homeless people and bag ladies, are being categorized as having a mental disorder based on legal guidelines of self harm or harming of others.


    If religious conviction is not a choice (but rather a normal aspect of human existence), and being crazy is not a choice, shouldn't they be treated the same by the APA?
    [/FONT]
    Last edited by SharmaK; February 11th, 2018 at 06:40 PM.

  7. #127
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    [/COLOR] From what I can tell, and from what I've offered as support in this thread, on the hot-button social issues of homosexuality and pedophilia the APA has folded to activism when the heat became too great.
    When an organization changes its stance on something, some people are quick to assume that it has "folded" under pressure. The same thing happened to President Obama when his view changed on marriage equality. People assumed that he was just going with what was popular, and there is certainly enough evidence to support such a claim. There exists, however, another possibility. As new information and evidence comes to light, the stance will adjust accordingly. For example, let's say you make a claim that fire is hot. Let's say that I have never seen or experienced fire, so I don't believe you. You, then, show me that fire is hot. My belief will change because I experienced first hand that fire is hot.

    For highly controversial topics such as homosexuality and pedophilia, categorizations are going to evolve. The human psyche is difficult to study because every person is unique and because gathering information that isn't colored by perception and personal beliefs is challenging. Therefore, the definitions will most likely change many more times as we discover new information.

    I am curious to know how many other evolving definitions you feel are the result of "activism pressure." There are 5 editions of the DSM of Mental Disorders. Do you feel that other definitions and information have changed simply because they are pressured or is your claim limited to only controversial subjects? I am wondering, also, if you would feel the same if the APA changed the classification of homosexuality back to a mental disorder. Would you still believe that it was a result of the APA "folding" to activism?

    But how about this:

    The reason pedophilia is classified as a disorder is because acting on pedophilic urges causes harm to prepubescent children. It also causes mental distress and anguish (other than the social stigma) to the pedophile. I asked a psychiatrist in my local area, fyi.

    On a personal note, why is a change of opinion or stance immediately assumed to be the result of "peer pressure?" Definitions of many things change as we learn new things. Is it so difficult to believe that someone possibly changed his/her mind because they learned something new?

    So many people go out of their way to draw a parallel between homosexuality and pedophilia, refusing to admit that their stance on homosexuality is largely based on their religious beliefs. It's such an insidious route to take and a bit insulting to homosexual people.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

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  9. #128
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    When an organization changes its stance on something, some people are quick to assume that it has "folded" under pressure.
    In the instance of API & DSM I think there is enough evidence to show it changing homosexuality from a disorder to not being one (that does not assume it should have been classified as a disorder in the first place, just that is how it got removed).
    http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.co...hat-went-away/

    "Then in 1970 gay activists protested against the APA convention in San Francisco. These scenes were repeated in 1971, and as people came out of the “closet” and felt empowered politically and socially, the APA directorate became increasingly uncomfortable with their stance. In 1973 the APA’s nomenclature task force recommended that homosexuality be declared normal. The trustees were not prepared to go that far, but they did vote to remove homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses by a vote of 13 to 0, with 2 abstentions. This decision was confirmed by a vote of the APA membership, and homosexuality was no longer listed in the seventh edition of DSM-II, which was issued in 1974.
    What’s noteworthy about this is that the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough. There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change. Rather, it was the simple reality that gay people started to kick up a fuss. They gained a voice and began to make themselves heard. And the APA reacted with truly astonishing speed. And with good reason. They realized intuitively that a protracted battle would have drawn increasing attention to the spurious nature of their entire taxonomy. So they quickly “cut loose” the gay community and forestalled any radical scrutiny of the DSM system generally.

    Pyc Today has a somewhat similar take:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl...ental-disorder

    "In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) asked all members attending its convention to vote on whether they believed homosexuality to be a mental disorder. 5,854 psychiatrists voted to remove homosexuality from the DSM, and 3,810 to retain it."
    Note it was by a simple vote only! 5854 voted to take it out of DSM, 3810 voted to retain it.
    No new studies or other information was utilized, just the current opinion of 5854 psychiatrists.

    ---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    For highly controversial topics such as homosexuality and pedophilia, categorizations are going to evolve. The human psyche is difficult to study because every person is unique and because gathering information that isn't colored by perception and personal beliefs is challenging. Therefore, the definitions will most likely change many more times as we discover new information.
    In the 1900's there was no such thing as "teenager" nor "adolescent".
    If you look at the age of consent around the world 13-16 is pretty common. Certainly some 13's have gone thru puberty, but also, certainly not all or even most.

    And as Sig says in post #27
    " I actually think that some degree of pedophilia is not that unusual. Those who are attracted to youth, say, beyond the age of 12 are not that abnormal in an instinctual sense. In many primitive cultures, marriages happen at those ages. And technically they may well be sexually mature. It's just in our more complicated society, it is not yet an age we deem adult and thus outside of adult sexual relationships."

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    The reason pedophilia is classified as a disorder is because acting on pedophilic urges causes harm to prepubescent children.
    Could you support that is must always cause harm?

    ---------- Post added at 05:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    It also causes mental distress and anguish (other than the social stigma) to the pedophile.
    The "stigma" is basically because it is currently illegal.

    In WA State using pot had a stigma. Now that it is legal for a while, not so much.

    ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    On a personal note, why is a change of opinion or stance immediately assumed to be the result of "peer pressure?"
    And why do YOU assume that ALL that claim "peer pressure" haven't researched the claim prior to forming and expressing their opinion???

    ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    So many people go out of their way to draw a parallel between homosexuality and pedophilia, refusing to admit that their stance on homosexuality is largely based on their religious beliefs. It's such an insidious route to take and a bit insulting to homosexual people.
    Agreed


    However, I believe DSM is a deeply flawed book. It may be the best Psychiatry has at the moment, which shows how far we have to go before it enters the same "library" let alone the "page" as a medical textbook.

    ---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Those who are attracted to pre-pubescent children, I think are more non-normative and more dangerous partly because they well know that their desires will never be accepted as normal.
    Since this has been "accepted" even a couple hundred years ago and still is in many countries today, how can you say it will "never" be accepted in the future???
    We as a country have changed definitions of words before to make things that were unacceptable, now acceptable.

    Trying to predict human behavior in the future is surely impossible with any degree of accuracy at the moment.
    Last edited by Belthazor; August 14th, 2018 at 04:37 PM.

 

 
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