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  1. #221
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A mental disorder, if there is to be such classification, should be identified by what is happening in the mind, not on whether acting on the mental process causes harm, and most certainly not on what is legal or illegal in a certain jurisdiction.
    Sure, but we're talking about classifying something as a disorder needing treatment. If a brain state doesn't harm anyone, why would it need to 1) be classified as a disorder and 2) be treated as such?

  2. #222
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    The brain state of pedophiles doesn't hurt anyone.

    Should it be writ into law that all pedophiles, even those that never touch a child, be rounded up and forced to undergo therapy?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #223
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The orientation doesn't cause harm.
    You have not supported that it's an "orientation". Support or retract that paedophilia is a sexual orientation.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The physical assault is what causes harm.
    There is also the harm to the subject in the form of distress resulting from society’s disapproval. So yes, the disorder does cause harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A mental disorder, if there is to be such classification, should be identified by what is happening in the mind, not on whether acting on the mental process causes harm, and most certainly not on what is legal or illegal in a certain jurisdiction.
    Again, this has already been addressed in our previous exchange. The definition of what's classified as a paraphilic disorder includes what is happening in the mind. Here it is again, from your OP:
    - feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval;
    or
    - have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent

    Both of those criteria are based on the desire, or what's happening in the mind.

  4. #224
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The brain state of pedophiles doesn't hurt anyone.
    No, but the brain state DOES contribute to the harm of minors. If it didn't, there'd be absolutely no reason to even acknowledge that such a brain state exists. This is such a stupid reply that it borders on being obtuse. You claimed you're actually open to discussion; are you really?

  5. #225
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    You have not supported that it's an "orientation". Support or retract that paedophilia is a sexual orientation.
    Pedophilic disorder can be diagnosed in people who are willing to disclose this paraphilia as well as in people who deny any sexual attraction to children, despite objective evidence of pedophilia. For the condition to be diagnosed, an individual must either act on their sexual urges or experience significant distress as a result of their urges or fantasies. Without these two criteria, a person may have a pedophilic sexual orientation but not pedophilic disorder. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/c...ons/pedophilia


    Dr James Cantor, of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada, spends much of his time exploring the brains of paedophiles using MRI scans. He has reached a startling and controversial conclusion. "Paedophilia is a sexual orientation," he says. "Paedophilia is something that we are essentially born with, does not appear to change over time and it's as core to our being as any other sexual orientation is." Cantor found that the brains of the paedophiles he studied were wired differently to non-paedophiles - something he describes as effectively a "cross-wiring" of the brain. "It's as if, in these people, when they perceive a child, it's triggering the sexual instincts instead of triggering the nurturing instincts," he says. https://p2c.com/students/pedophilia-...tian-morality/

    This past year, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) classified pedophilia as a sexual orientation in their latest edition of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-5.(1) There was an immediate and substantial backlash, which moved the APA to publish a ‘correction’.(2)The correction, however, is interesting. It makes a distinction between the sexual orientation of pedophilia, and acting on that orientation, which they refer to as pedophilic disorder. Only the latter is considered to be a disorder. https://p2c.com/students/pedophilia-...tian-morality/

    ---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------

    @ Dio - Acting on thoughts and emotions causes harm. Having them does not. Paraphilic Disorder is only a disorder when the sexual orientation is acted on. Self control, and recognizing that people can control their behavior is not stupid.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #226
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    @ Dio - Acting on thoughts and emotions causes harm. Having them does not.
    Right, agreed entirely. So WHY categorize homosexuality and pedophilia the same way? What is the point of not distinguishing between the two in any way?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Self control, and recognizing that people can control their behavior is not stupid.
    Supposing you're right about self-control as it relates to homosexuality 1) Why should two consenting adults align their self-control with what an unaffected third party wants them to do 2) How does making no distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality aid in #1?

  7. #227
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Right, agreed entirely. So WHY categorize homosexuality and pedophilia the same way? What is the point of not distinguishing between the two in any way?
    I still don't see a reason to classify them differently, other than bowing to popular public opinion. Homosexuality isn't classified differently than heterosexuality, despite the fact that it is aberrant from the norm.

    If anyone thinks the DSM is a wholly professional and reliable authority...wrong. I found this while trying to find if rapism is considered a mental disorder:

    I served as an advisor to two (DSM) committees for the current edition and was appalled by how unscientific was the process of deciding, in essence, who is normal and what are the varieties of "abnormality" or "mental disorder." As an insider, I saw in spine-chilling detail the ways that poor science was used when it suited those in charge and the ways that good research was distorted, ignored, or even lied about when that suited them. This wouldn't matter so much, were it not for the vast suffering that being psychiatrically labeled has occasioned for so many...https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...e-mentally-ill


    ---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

    1) they don't have to. 2) I don't get the connection.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #228
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I still don't see a reason to classify them differently, other than bowing to popular public opinion. Homosexuality isn't classified differently than heterosexuality, despite the fact that it is aberrant from the norm.
    Good point. So why not classify heterosexuality as a disorder in need of treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    1) they don't have to.
    I didn't say they did; your comment "Self control, and recognizing that people can control their behavior" seemed to suggest that this had some bearing on the question why homosexuality should be classified as a disorder in need of treatment. But if you're now saying that self-control has nothing to do with classifying something as a disorder, then nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    2) I don't get the connection.
    That's my fault; I phrased it very badly. I meant to ask how classifying something as a disorder aids in increasing self-control, but since you now seem to be saying that there's no relationship between self control and whether or not something should be regarded as a disorder, it's a moot question.

    I am still curious, though. If classifying homosexuality as a disorder in need of treatment doesn't have anything to do with potential harm stemming from certain brain states, and it has nothing to do at all with self-control, why bother with it at all?

  9. #229
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Good point. So why not classify heterosexuality as a disorder in need of treatment?
    Or declassify all orientations and recognize that they don't need treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I didn't say they did; your comment "Self control, and recognizing that people can control their behavior" seemed to suggest that this had some bearing on the question why homosexuality should be classified as a disorder in need of treatment. But if you're now saying that self-control has nothing to do with classifying something as a disorder, then nevermind.

    That's my fault; I phrased it very badly. I meant to ask how classifying something as a disorder aids in increasing self-control, but since you now seem to be saying that there's no relationship between self control and whether or not something should be regarded as a disorder, it's a moot question.
    Great, sounds like we're agreed. (But you're likely trying to make some subtle point that I'm not grasping.)
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #230
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Or declassify all orientations and recognize that they don't need treatment.
    That's certainly a possibility.

    ...WAIT a minute. Don't some brain states sometimes play a role behaviors, and don't some of those behaviors cause harm?

    You know what we really need? We should have a means of talking about different brain states, perhaps a way classifying them on the basis of things like harm and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Great, sounds like we're agreed. (But you're likely trying to make some subtle point that I'm not grasping.)
    I'm sure it appeared in an edit while you were replying (my fault again).

    If classifying homosexuality as a disorder in need of treatment doesn't have anything to do with potential harm stemming from certain brain states, and it has nothing to do at all with self-control, why bother with it at all?

  11. #231
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    That's certainly a possibility.

    ...WAIT a minute. Don't some brain states sometimes play a role behaviors, and don't some of those behaviors cause harm?

    You know what we really need? We should have a means of talking about different brain states, perhaps a way classifying them on the basis of things like harm and so on.
    Okay, sure! Let's classify greed as a mental disorder, so those suffering can get the psychiatric help they really need. And then all Type-A personalities should be rounded up for mandatory therapy. There's no end to the good we can do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I'm sure it appeared in an edit while you were replying (my fault again).
    No, my fault. I have a problem with premature articulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If classifying homosexuality as a disorder in need of treatment doesn't have anything to do with potential harm stemming from certain brain states, and it has nothing to do at all with self-control, why bother with it at all?
    You're right. It's perfectly normal, as evidenced by 95% of the population identifying as homosexual. No need to bother with that one.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #232
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, sure! Let's classify greed as a mental disorder, so those suffering can get the psychiatric help they really need. Perhaps all Type-A personalities should be rounded up for mandatory therapy.
    Is your argument that mental disorders are a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, my fault. I have a problem with premature articulation.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're right. It's perfectly normal, as evidenced by 95% of the population identifying as homosexual. No need to bother with that one.
    Hey... you're not appealing to popularity, are you?

  13. #233
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Is your argument that mental disorders are a myth?
    Nope, just created and retracted on the whims of the committees, guided by public opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Hey... you're not appealing to popularity, are you?
    Why not? So many other people think that is good argumentation, it must be okay.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #234
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Nope, just created and retracted on the whims of the committees, guided by public opinion.
    Ok. So let's put aside whims for a minute and regard mental disorders as a real thing to contend with.

    Suppose for a moment that WE - you and I - were that committee. Suppose also we were tasked with classifying disorders, and by extension, classifying brain states that could need attention/treatment.

    In the execution of this task, do you think it would be worthwhile to consider how certain brain states play a role in certain behaviors? Do you think it would be worthwhile to consider whether or not the behaviors that tended to be exhibited by certain brain states could induce harm?

  15. #235
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Suppose for a moment that WE - you and I - were that committee.
    The Chair (Dio) calls the meeting to order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Suppose also we were tasked with classifying disorders, and by extension, classifying brain states that could need attention/treatment.
    Mission statement read to the committee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    In the execution of this task, do you think it would be worthwhile to consider how certain brain states play a role in certain behaviors?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Do you think it would be worthwhile to consider whether or not the behaviors that tended to be exhibited by certain brain states could induce harm?
    Yes. Brain states may influence behavior that could cause harm to the individual, other individuals, groups of people, and to the greater society as a whole.

    We should consider all the above.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  17. #236
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes.
    Yes.
    We should consider all the above.
    Ok, so here's what I think (I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but... Anyway here we go).

    I think YOU think homosexuality introduces social harm, and you in fact DO incorporate the element of potential harm into your thinking about the issue, but you don't want to SAY homosexuality causes harm because you don't want to get into that argument, because then - after lots of noises about traditional/non-traditional relationships, the sanctity of marriage/high divorce rates, and stats about whether or not people are weird when they're raised by gay couples - you just know people will just ignore your concerns and distill it down to you thinking it's icky, or you being an uptight Bible-thumper, or you'll just wind up arguing about what sort of thing actually constitutes "harm" and so on, then the whole thing devolves into people arguing about whether or not hurt feelings are really harmful. A profound waste of time.

    So now you're left with either 1) Classifying EVERYTHING as a disorder and having to pretend like you don't give a **** about things like managing behaviors and preventing harm 2) Classifying NOTHING as a disorder and having to pretend like you don't give a **** about things like managing behaviors and preventing harm.

    Is that about right?

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  19. #237
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Pedophilic disorder can be diagnosed in people who are willing to disclose this paraphilia as well as in people who deny any sexual attraction to children, despite objective evidence of pedophilia. For the condition to be diagnosed, an individual must either act on their sexual urges or experience significant distress as a result of their urges or fantasies. Without these two criteria, a person may have a pedophilic sexual orientation but not pedophilic disorder. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/c...ons/pedophilia


    Dr James Cantor, of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada, spends much of his time exploring the brains of paedophiles using MRI scans. He has reached a startling and controversial conclusion. "Paedophilia is a sexual orientation," he says. "Paedophilia is something that we are essentially born with, does not appear to change over time and it's as core to our being as any other sexual orientation is." Cantor found that the brains of the paedophiles he studied were wired differently to non-paedophiles - something he describes as effectively a "cross-wiring" of the brain. "It's as if, in these people, when they perceive a child, it's triggering the sexual instincts instead of triggering the nurturing instincts," he says. https://p2c.com/students/pedophilia-...tian-morality/

    This past year, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) classified pedophilia as a sexual orientation in their latest edition of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-5.(1) There was an immediate and substantial backlash, which moved the APA to publish a ‘correction’.(2)The correction, however, is interesting. It makes a distinction between the sexual orientation of pedophilia, and acting on that orientation, which they refer to as pedophilic disorder. Only the latter is considered to be a disorder. https://p2c.com/students/pedophilia-...tian-morality/
    So, there are a number of issues with the support you've provided. In the Psychology Today article, their classification clearly doesn't align with the APA's definitions. "For [paedophilic disorder] to be diagnosed, an individual must either act on their sexual urges or experience significant distress as a result of their urges or fantasies."
    This is not what the APA's definition states. For paedophilic disorder to be diagnosed, the individual must either:
    - feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval;
    or
    - have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent
    Given that Psychology Today get's the definition of paedophilic disorder wrong, the differentiation they make with "a person may have a pedophilic sexual orientation but not pedophilic disorder" is invalid, and therefore doesn't support that paedophilia should be considered a sexual orientation.

    Regarding the Power to Change article, all it states is that paedophilia was listed as an orientation erroneously and later corrected to be not a sexual orientation. So, as it stands currently, paedophilia is not classified as a sexual orientation.
    Further, the quotation from Dr. Cantor saying paedophilia is a sexual orientation is taken somewhat out of context. He's explaining how deeply-ingrained paedophilia is, and comparing it to sexual orientations in terms of how they work within the brain. He isn't making a statement of how paedophilia should be considered or treated the same way as sexual orientations.
    In the original article from which P2C quotes, he clarifies further: Cantor found that the brains of the paedophiles he studied were wired differently to non-paedophiles - something he describes as effectively a "cross-wiring" of the brain. "It's as if, in these people, when they perceive a child, it's triggering the sexual instincts instead of triggering the nurturing instincts," he says.
    So paedophilia is a cross-wiring of the brain, and paedophiles have brains which are different than non-paedophiles. This is not how sexual orientations are defined, especially for the purposes of our discussion, and therefore, the P2C article also doesn't support that paedophilia should be considered a sexual orientation.

    As it stands, you have not supported that sexual orientations, commonly defined as being based on attraction to a gender, should include paedophilia.
    We need only look at common sources which actually offer definitions sexual orientations (ie.: are not just statements taken out of context) to see that sexual orientations are defined as attraction based on gender (opposite, same, both, none). The APA has defined sexual orientation in this way since at least DSM-III. This definition does not include "attraction caused by cross-wiring in the brain which triggers sexual instincts instead of nurturing instincts".

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The physical assault is what causes harm.
    There is also the harm to the subject in the form of distress resulting from society’s disapproval. So yes, the disorder does cause harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A mental disorder, if there is to be such classification, should be identified by what is happening in the mind, not on whether acting on the mental process causes harm, and most certainly not on what is legal or illegal in a certain jurisdiction.
    Again, this has already been addressed in our previous exchange. The definition of what's classified as a paraphilic disorder includes what is happening in the mind. Here it is again, from your OP:
    - feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval;
    or
    - have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent

    Both of those criteria are based on the desire, or what's happening in the mind.

  20. #238
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Is that about right?
    That pretty much nails it, though I may want to clarify a few points.

    Proceed.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  22. #239
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    That pretty much nails it, though I may want to clarify a few points.

    Proceed.
    That's ok (but feel free to elaborate; I'll certainly read it although I may not say anything). I really just didn't want to leave the conversation with the idea floating around out there that you don't give a damn about harm. Of course you do. That's really all I wanted to get out of it, so thanks for that.

  23. #240
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    Re: Why is Pedophilia Categorized as a Disorder?

    Well, that's a letdown. I thought you were building up to a big masterstroke. I was really looking forward in anticipation.

    It might have been easier to ask "Hey, evensaul, do you care whether anyone is harmed by people with mental disorders?"

    Meeting adjourned, I guess.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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