Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 23 of 28 FirstFirst ... 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 ... LastLast
Results 441 to 460 of 555
  1. #441
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You don't really realize it, but your doing a bit of shifting here.
    I've repeatedly explained what the goal of this thread was, and repeatedly reiterated the topic with statements like:
    "this is quite irrelevant to the OP, which is about an individual person's belief"
    "This OP is about the latter - the every-day theist who believes that there's an invisible man in the sky and an afterlife"
    "in the interests of actually having an honest and worthwhile discussion, what do you believe, and why? That's all I'm interested in anyway"

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The OP refers to ALL claims. The problem is you appear to be pigeon holing all paths to christian beliefs. Specifically appealing to how one originally "reasoned" to the belief in Christ.
    The OP refers to theistic beliefs. This means, "beliefs held by theists". If you have a theistic belief which you think is rationally justified, please provide it and we can discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It isn't what brings one to a belief, but why one maintains a belief.
    Upon realizing that a cherry tree is not rational justification for a belief, the correct course of action is to abandon the belief. And later, when sufficient justification is offered, the belief can be accepted again. This is not what theists do. Theists believe for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continue believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempt to justify those beliefs with flawed arguments which, in this case, don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief. I know of no proponent of these arguments who came to the beliefs they're trying to support with them by those arguments alone, but they all claim that the arguments support the belief.
    If you want to try and call that rational, fine, but it's not.

  2. #442
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    The OP refers to theistic beliefs. This means, "beliefs held by theists". If you have a theistic belief which you think is rationally justified, please provide it and we can discuss.
    One has been discussed here... Namely that God exists. Squatch has offered several substantive responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Upon realizing that a cherry tree is not rational justification for a belief, the correct course of action is to abandon the belief. And later, when sufficient justification is offered, the belief can be accepted again.
    But your demanding that people use the original reason, and that demand is not justified. Per my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    This is not what theists do. Theists believe for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continue believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempt to justify those beliefs with flawed arguments which, in this case, don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief. I know of no proponent of these arguments who came to the beliefs they're trying to support with them by those arguments alone, but they all claim that the arguments support the belief.
    If you want to try and call that rational, fine, but it's not.
    I don't see any reason to accept this declaration from you as true and certainly don't see any rational justification for the belief that it is. Sounds more like a hasty generalization fallacy.
    To serve man.

  3. #443
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But your demanding that people use the original reason, and that demand is not justified. Per my point.
    Please indicate where I have demanded anything of the sort.

  4. #444
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Please indicate where I have demanded anything of the sort.
    Here is the quote again.
    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Now I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that a key factor in having a belief is how one came to it it, and whether that process was rationally justified.
    Given the context of the discussion you had with squatch, it appears you are referring to the very initial basis for various beliefs in truth claims.

    Let me know if I have misunderstood you here. Otherwise, I don't see my objection o it being very controversial, or majorly disputable.
    To serve man.

  5. #445
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Please explain how:
    "Now I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that a key factor in having a belief is how one came to it, and whether that process was rationally justified."
    is the same as:
    "But your demanding that people use the original reason, and that demand is not justified."

    I'm attempting to have a discussion about the rational justification for a/some/any theistic belief(s).
    I don't deny that why someone maintains a belief is important, but you seem to be disputing that the process behind how someone came to a belief in the first place is also important. Because if we don't care about how we come to a belief, and only whether we can justify it later, then one can use pretty much any non-specific argument to justify their belief in a specific deity - indeed, this is exactly what we see happening. Case in point: KCA is called so because it was used as justification for Islamic beliefs, not Christian.

    Also, you have not addressed my earlier statement:
    Theists believe for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continue believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempt to justify those beliefs with flawed arguments which, in this case, don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief. I know of no proponent of these arguments who came to the beliefs they're trying to support with them by those arguments alone, but they all claim that the arguments support the belief.
    If you want to try and call that rational, fine, but it's not.
    Whether this actually is the case or is just a hasty generalization is beside the point. Do you agree that a theist whose belief is built upon such a foundation cannot call it rational?

  6. #446
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Also, you have not addressed my earlier statement:
    I did address it. There is no reason to accept it.

    For example...
    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Theists believe for a very long time for insufficient reasons
    Why should I accept that? It doesn't appear to be true at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    but you seem to be disputing that the process behind how someone came to a belief in the first place is also important.
    Yes, I am. I still think America is the greatest country in the world and in history, but not for anything related to a cherry tree.
    So, if you see some relevance.. please explain.
    To serve man.

  7. #447
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I did address it. There is no reason to accept it.
    For example...
    Why should I accept that? It doesn't appear to be true at all.
    Then don't accept it, by all means. However, again, whether it actually is the case or just a hasty generalization is not the point, for now, at least.
    A simple yes or no question: Do you agree that a theist whose belief is built upon such a foundation cannot call it rational?

  8. #448
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Then don't accept it, by all means. However, again, whether it actually is the case or just a hasty generalization is not the point, for now, at least.
    actually it is the point. because the second part is a truism.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    A simple yes or no question: Do you agree that a theist whose belief is built upon such a foundation cannot call it rational?
    This is the relevant part IE the "such a foundation".

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Theists believe for a very long time for insufficient reasons,
    "for insufficient reasons" is sort of the definition of irrational.
    So "YES" any belief based on insufficient reasons is irrational.

    Now you can support your claim that Christians do this.. IT the "theists believe for a long time for insufficient reasons".
    To serve man.

  9. #449
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So "YES" any belief based on insufficient reasons is irrational.
    Wait, are you saying "YES" to the entire foundation, or just to the part where one is believing on initially insufficient reasons?
    Here it is again, please confirm:
    "Someone who believes for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continues believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempts to justify those beliefs with vague arguments which don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief."

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Now you can support your claim that Christians do this.. IT the "theists believe for a long time for insufficient reasons".
    One example would be someone who believes for at least the first decade of their life just (two decades for many) because it's what their parents taught them to believe - in other words, a belief that they didn't reach/establish naturally on their own.

  10. #450
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    I am saying that believing for insufficient reasons.. is insufficient. As I said it is a truism. I do not agree that you have established any support from that christians fall in that category or any criteria for it.
    To serve man.

  11. #451
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I am saying that believing for insufficient reasons.. is insufficient.I do not agree that you have established any support from that christians fall in that category or any criteria for it.
    Then you disagree that the following foundation for a belief is irrational?
    "Someone who believes for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continues believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempts to justify those beliefs with vague arguments which don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief."

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I do not agree that you have established any support from that christians fall in that category or any criteria for it.
    I provided an example, do you dispute that there are such Xtians?

  12. #452
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Insufficient reasons are insufficient. The rest of your description is imaginary projection on no one specific.

    That such Christian's do exist is not relevant, unless you are arguing that it is normative. Which I don't agree.
    To serve man.

  13. #453
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Ok, since you're not responding directly to my requests for clarification, let's take this one step at a time.

    Question to opponent.Do you agree that there are Xtians who believe for at least the first decade of their life (two decades for many) just because it's what their parents taught them to believe - in other words, a belief that they didn't reach/establish naturally on their own?

  14. #454
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Yes, everyone has such beliefs and hold then their entire lives.

    Question.. are you making a case for something, or playing 21 questions?
    To serve man.

  15. #455
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes, everyone has such beliefs and hold then their entire lives.
    So you agree that there are Xtians who believe for a long time for insufficient reasons (because some authority told them it's true), and continue believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient?

  16. #456
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    First, I am giving you the curtisy of answering your questions. I hope to be offered the same when I ask you one.
    Second, what you are saying is not a repeat of your question and doesn't follow logically from it or my answer at all.
    To serve man.

  17. #457
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    First, I am giving you the curtisy of answering your questions. I hope to be offered the same when I ask you one.
    My apologies if I missed a question relevant to the OP which you asked. Please indicate the question I missed and I will do my best to answer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Second, what you are saying is not a repeat of your question and doesn't follow logically from it or my answer at all.
    Could you be a bit more specific? Which "your question" are you referring to? It would help if you listed the two things ("what you are saying" and "your question") via quote, so that I can fully understand what you mean.

  18. #458
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Responding from my phone... So no quoting for now. I was referencing your post 455. What you say in post 455 doesn't follow logically from the two posts that come before it.
    To serve man.

  19. #459
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Responding from my phone... So no quoting for now. I was referencing your post 455. What you say in post 455 doesn't follow logically from the two posts that come before it.
    I think these are the statements you're referring to:
    #451: Someone who believes for a very long time for insufficient reasons, continues believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient, and later attempts to justify those beliefs with vague arguments which don't necessarily by themselves support any specific belief
    #453: Xtians who believe for at least the first decade of their life (two decades for many) just because it's what their parents taught them to believe - in other words, a belief that they didn't reach/establish naturally on their own?
    #455: Xtians who believe for a long time for insufficient reasons (because some authority told them it's true), and continue believing even after they should know that those reasons aren't sufficient
    I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't follow logically", since this isn't really a logic chain, but my attempt to narrow down your objection due to the vagueness with which you have been responding and avoiding my direct requests for clarification.

    It looks like it might be because you don't consider "believing because some authority told you it's true" to be an insufficient reason for believing something, even for someone over the age of 10, but it would really be best if you clarified.

  20. #460
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    "Someone who believes for insufficient reasons."
    I object that this applies to Christian's as a group, specifically that the reasons are insufficient.
    "Vague arguments that don't justify."
    I object that this applies to Christian's as a group especially given the total body of arguments offered by Christian's.
    "After they should know the reasons are insufficient"
    Given that I don't accept your general assertion that Christian's don't have sufficient reasons, then I certainly reject this as well.

    To your criteria of justified belief..
    "A belief that is reached and established on their own"
    I see no reason to accept this as true or exhuastive of reasonable belief.
    - to your diqualification of parental teaching- I see no reason to justify the prejudice against parents as proper authority to derive beliefs from.

    Here I make a distinction from ultimately correct vs reasonable cause to hold a belief.

    ---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    "Someone who believes for insufficient reasons."
    I object that this applies to Christian's as a group, specifically that the reasons are insufficient.
    "Vague arguments that don't justify."
    I object that this applies to Christian's as a group especially given the total body of arguments offered by Christian's.
    "After they should know the reasons are insufficient"
    Given that I don't accept your general assertion that Christian's don't have sufficient reasons, then I certainly reject this as well.

    To your criteria of justified belief..
    "A belief that is reached and established on their own"
    I see no reason to accept this as true or exhuastive of reasonable belief.
    - to your diqualification of parental teaching- I see no reason to justify the prejudice against parents as proper authority to derive beliefs from.

    Here I make a distinction from ultimately correct vs reasonable cause to hold a belief.
    To serve man.

 

 
Page 23 of 28 FirstFirst ... 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Philosophy: Does a necessary beng exist, and is it consistent with the theistic God?
    By cstamford in forum Member Articles & Essays
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: October 15th, 2015, 06:02 AM
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: April 25th, 2015, 09:37 AM
  3. The Theistic Definition Thread
    By Meng Bomin in forum Religion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: January 26th, 2007, 02:13 PM
  4. Theistic Evolution????
    By nanderson in forum Religion
    Replies: 152
    Last Post: April 13th, 2006, 06:53 AM
  5. Theistic Death
    By Iluvatar in forum Religion
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: April 2nd, 2005, 08:01 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •