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  1. #461
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    to your diqualification of parental teaching- I see no reason to justify the prejudice against parents as proper authority to derive beliefs from
    I'll focus on this, for now. I'm of the opinion that accepting a claim because an authority tells you it's true (or simply tells you to accept the claim), does not rationally justify the belief. Sure, you could say it justifies the belief for the authority, and even for you, and the claim may even turn out to be correct, but none of that qualifies as rational justification for believing the claim.

    On what basis do you say that coming from an authority serves as rational justification for belief in a claim, since this is clearly not a reliable pathway to truth?

  2. #462
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy
    I'll focus on this, for now. I'm of the opinion that accepting a claim because an authority tells you it's true (or simply tells you to accept the claim), does not rationally justify the belief.
    I think we are using "authority" different here?

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    On what basis do you say that coming from an authority serves as rational justification for belief in a claim, since this is clearly not a reliable pathway to truth?
    You will have to support that it is "clearly" not a reliable pathway to truth. It seems to me that in regards to things like history authorities are almost our exclusive access to knowledge.
    We rely on authorities all the time, and are perfectly rational to do so.
    It may not be the maximum possible on a reliability scale, however it is not only the maximum that qualifies as rational to believe.

    Your argument is from the position of a negative and inferring that it is irrational to believe a less than maximally reliable path to truth.
    You need to support that. Given how many pay for an education, I think you have an uphill climb in your argument against authorities.
    To serve man.

  3. #463
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Again, this thread is specifically about whether or not a broad, theistic belief is rational. This argument is presented in that context here, and in no other.
    I have said this before in this thread but feel it needs repeating. I am only arguing against beliefs in a specific religion, not theism as a whole.

    ---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    To reiterate, I'm using the term "fine-tuning" in the same manner as physicists and astrophysicists use the term. Do you disagree with their use or my definition of their use? If so, please detail how their usage, or my understanding of their usage is incorrect.
    This sounds fine. Now can you show they think this was because of intent and not just saying the parameters for our universe to exist in it's current form are very limited?

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Define fantastic in a measurable sense. I think when we use subjective discriptors of that nature we end up just enshringing out initial conclusions against the argument. Perhaps all the answers are "fantastic" it doesn't mean that one of them isn't the most likely.
    I see no reason to do that.
    Since you agree that "perhaps all of these answers are fantastic", even your "most likely" just doesn't sound very likely.

    The fact you think "God" cares what I think on the matter and won't allow me to know the truth, even though "He" wants me to fallow the truth actually makes it seem a less likely possibility...

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    By reading the Constitution? By reading the 16th Amendment a person could clearly answer the question of whether or not the government is allowed to levy an income tax without once appealing to understanding about the IRS.
    HUH? You said a person with no knowledge of Gov't! By reading/learning before making a proper decision you have rendered your point to irrelevance.

    ---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Right, we can rule out chance because a chance event resulting in a 787 is statistically less likely than other explanations. But your response skipped a step. When you say that no one doubts that it was made by man, you are right, artificial creation by humans is a category of explanation.

    If you were to offer that category to me, I wouldn't be justifid in saying, "but you don't know each step in a 787's creation, therefore we can't rule out chance." That would be absurd. That is the exact form of your objection here. You are saying we can't rule out an entire category of options because we can't detail the specific steps on another category.

    To employ an argument ad absurdum rebuttal, your argument could be applied to say "we can't reject the widely discredited primeval atom theory of the origin of the universe because we don't understand the full model of the universe." Clearly that isn't the case, we have rejected that particular theory, despite our understanding.
    Um, no.
    My point was/is, one is obvious, the other is not at all.

    ---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    In statistical terms, yes it is actually a very big deal. That is why there are hundreds of peer-reviewed articles on these subjects, why it is a perenial discussion in the physics community, and why it is discussed at conferences.

    Regardless of however you want to subjectively assess it, we have to deal with the premise offered. "The fine-tuning of the universe is explainable through either necessity, chance, or design."

    What it means is other universes may exist but they would not be like ours at all...

    To support the universe was indeed "fine tuned" you would have to show intent ie a consciousness that purposefully did this.

    ---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Oh? Can you detail which part of the nicene creed requires that life be present in all parts of the universe?

    I think it, more accurately, would counter some inferences that people have about Christian teaching (including some Christians to be fair) rather than any core doctrine or theology.
    I said no such thing for goodness sake.
    Unless humans travel faster than light safely, almost all of the universe is out of our reach (assuming humans won't survive for billions of years). That and the fact that most of the universe is deadly to humans leads me to believe it wasn't "made just for us".

    ---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    No, why would I need to propose a universe God resides in? What rule have I proposed that God is exempt from?
    To the first:
    ok, you are saying God resides "where" since he can not be a part of our universe?

    To the latter:
    God needs no cause.
    God IS an actual infinity.
    God need fallow no natural law.
    God is conscious but has no physical presence and is timeless etc (how could such a being even be said to exist?).
    God need not have existed in another universe prior (or even now) to creating this one.

    ---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The first statement is correct. That there is no temporally prior moment to T=0 in the big bang. The second statement is correct, that there is a causal prior to the big bang. The third statement is not correct. The causal prior didn't happen "when" anything since time is not related, dimensionally, to that prior. Rather, I would say, that the cuasal prior exists absent time.
    You change my words all the time but usually fail to show a significant difference. I would rather focus on my ideas than semantics, though I appreciate your thoroughness...

    So the "causal prior" exists when time does not.
    We define time as only applying to our universe.
    Correct?

  4. #464
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think we are using "authority" different here?
    Please explain - this is quite vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You will have to support that it is "clearly" not a reliable pathway to truth.
    Well, assuming, for the sake of argument, that only one theistic belief system is true - let's say yours. All the people in the world who believe in the wrong deity because a person of authority (their parents) told them it's true, do not have the true belief. Therefore, this method is not a reliable pathway to truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    We rely on authorities all the time, and are perfectly rational to do so.
    Please give an example where we take an authority's word on a claim simply because they are an authority and without any further support which that authority can provide to back up their claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It may not be the maximum possible on a reliability scale, however it is not only the maximum that qualifies as rational to believe.
    I'd argue that an authority that expects someone to believe their claims just because they're the authority (and not even an authority on the field in question, in the case of parents presenting theistic claims to their children), is quite low on the reliability scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your argument is from the position of a negative and inferring that it is irrational to believe a less than maximally reliable path to truth.
    No, I not saying anything about varying scales of reliability. Either a pathway is reliable or it isn't. If it isn't, then believing in the claim via such a pathway is irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You need to support that. Given how many pay for an education, I think you have an uphill climb in your argument against authorities.
    Comparing the expertise professors and teachers have in their fields with parents claiming to their kids that a deity exists is simply absurd. Academia has a sound foundation of support for the claims they make. This is not the case with the theistic claims which parents make.

  5. #465
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    -partial answer for .. time permitting--

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Please explain - this is quite vague.
    I am not using "authority" in the sense that one is in charge or in control of another.
    Just so we are on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Well, assuming, for the sake of argument, that only one theistic belief system is true - let's say yours. All the people in the world who believe in the wrong deity because a person of authority (their parents) told them it's true, do not have the true belief. Therefore, this method is not a reliable pathway to truth.
    This is an arbitrary declaration on your part.
    First of all(given your assumptions here), by your standard the fact that the vast majority of the world believe that God exists in some way (theistic) then it is very reliable. So you ignore that part.
    Second, suppose that Christianity represents 1/3 of the worlds population. Then how much consensus is required before an "authority" is trustworthy? .. any example or reasoning you can offer for clarification?
    Third, Reliability is important.. but the bar is a little different then that, and that is "reason-ability". Can a reasonable person accept the authority, and I think that answer is yes when it comes to parents and their kids.
    A reasonable child will believe their parents, and they are not being unreasonable in doing so, nor are parents an unreasonable source. Even if it is not the most accurate source possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Please give an example where we take an authority's word on a claim simply because they are an authority and without any further support which that authority can provide to back up their claims.
    So that little "can provide to back up their claims" is rejected.
    Because it is not that an authority CAN it is if you expect it to be offered or not. You have in this thread demanded that they offer the support, so you can't compare it to any situation where you don't demand support.

    So an example would be something like who your parents are. You accept that your mom is your mom and your dad is your dad, based only on their word. Sure they "could" in most cases provide a birth certificate, but lets not pretend that you demanded a birth certificate before you believed them, or even really questioned it when you first got your birth certificate.
    So the point is we do this all the time in our daily life with all sorts of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    I'd argue that an authority that expects someone to believe their claims just because they're the authority (and not even an authority on the field in question, in the case of parents presenting theistic claims to their children), is quite low on the reliability scale.
    Maybe, but I'm only arguing that it isn't so low that a person is irrational to believe it. I have supported this by showing rational people regularly accept the standard I am offering.

    ... got to go.. more soon hopefully.
    To serve man.

  6. #466
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    -partial answer for .. time permitting--

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Please explain - this is quite vague.
    I am not using "authority" in the sense that one is in charge or in control of another.
    Just so we are on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Well, assuming, for the sake of argument, that only one theistic belief system is true - let's say yours. All the people in the world who believe in the wrong deity because a person of authority (their parents) told them it's true, do not have the true belief. Therefore, this method is not a reliable pathway to truth.
    This is an arbitrary declaration on your part.
    First of all(given your assumptions here), by your standard the fact that the vast majority of the world believe that God exists in some way (theistic) then it is very reliable. So you ignore that part.
    Second, suppose that Christianity represents 1/3 of the worlds population. Then how much consensus is required before an "authority" is trustworthy? .. any example or reasoning you can offer for clarification?
    Third, Reliability is important.. but the bar is a little different then that, and that is "reason-ability". Can a reasonable person accept the authority, and I think that answer is yes when it comes to parents and their kids.
    A reasonable child will believe their parents, and they are not being unreasonable in doing so, nor are parents an unreasonable source. Even if it is not the most accurate source possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Please give an example where we take an authority's word on a claim simply because they are an authority and without any further support which that authority can provide to back up their claims.
    So that little "can provide to back up their claims" is rejected.
    Because it is not that an authority CAN it is if you expect it to be offered or not. You have in this thread demanded that they offer the support, so you can't compare it to any situation where you don't demand support.

    So an example would be something like who your parents are. You accept that your mom is your mom and your dad is your dad, based only on their word. Sure they "could" in most cases provide a birth certificate, but lets not pretend that you demanded a birth certificate before you believed them, or even really questioned it when you first got your birth certificate.
    So the point is we do this all the time in our daily life with all sorts of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    I'd argue that an authority that expects someone to believe their claims just because they're the authority (and not even an authority on the field in question, in the case of parents presenting theistic claims to their children), is quite low on the reliability scale.
    Maybe, but I'm only arguing that it isn't so low that a person is irrational to believe it. I have supported this by showing rational people regularly accept the standard I am offering.

    ... got to go.. more soon hopefully.
    To serve man.

  7. #467
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    First of all(given your assumptions here), by your standard the fact that the vast majority of the world believe that God exists in some way (theistic) then it is very reliable. So you ignore that part.
    "In some way theistic" doesn't make their specific beliefs true. Again, not having a true belief makes the method by which one came to that belief unreliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Second, suppose that Christianity represents 1/3 of the worlds population. Then how much consensus is required before an "authority" is trustworthy? .. any example or reasoning you can offer for clarification?
    A method of acquiring the truth which is only right 33% of the time (again, only assuming that Xtianity is true) cannot be called a reliable pathway to truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Third, Reliability is important.. but the bar is a little different then that, and that is "reason-ability". Can a reasonable person accept the authority, and I think that answer is yes when it comes to parents and their kids.
    Children cannot reason in the way a fully-developed mind can. Which is why, when you think about it, they need to be able to rely on authorities to give them information on how to act and live.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    A reasonable child will believe their parents
    Yes, a child, who cannot reason fully, needs to rely on an authority. This does not make the method a reliable pathway to truth. Luckily, for most mundane daily things, this method serves quite well. However, for claims like an invisible man in the sky and life after death, it is notoriously unreliable (only 33% accuracy).

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    they are not being unreasonable in doing so, nor are parents an unreasonable source.
    The parents are the only source for a mind which cannot reason by itself. Once it can, the authority is no longer reasonable as a source by itself without any support.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Even if it is not the most accurate source possible.
    Hence it is not a reliable pathway to truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So that little "can provide to back up their claims" is rejected.
    Because it is not that an authority CAN it is if you expect it to be offered or not. You have in this thread demanded that they offer the support, so you can't compare it to any situation where you don't demand support.
    I'm not sure I get your point here. What I'm saying is that, if we are going to use an authority as a pathway to truth, then the authority needs to be able to backup their claims. If we don't expect the authority to do so, then it's our own fault for not being rational and ending up believing something incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So an example would be something like who your parents are. You accept that your mom is your mom and your dad is your dad, based only on their word.
    Well, I've seen my birth certificate, so your example doesn't really apply to me. But, by the time the child is able to reason fully, it's not just the parent's word that is offered. There's other family members' word, there's photographs - much much more than just the parent's word. As a child grows older and is able to reason better, the supporting evidence piles on so thick that it would be silly to think that the only reason they accept the people are their parents simply based on their word. Do you honestly claim that the only reason you, still to this day, believe that the people calling themselves are your parents, is simply because they say they are? Your example fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So the point is we do this all the time in our daily life with all sorts of things.
    The only example you provided was one where a child-mind, which is not able to reason fully, accepts that the people in a position of authority are their parents based solely on their word, before any other support is offered and the child no longer needs to accept it solely on the word of the authority. Please give an example where we (meaning people who are able to reason fully - not a child) take an authority's word on a claim simply because they are an authority and without any further support which that authority can provide to back up their claims.

  8. #468
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by future
    "In some way theistic" doesn't make their specific beliefs true. Again, not having a true belief makes the method by which one came to that belief unreliable.
    Their specific belief here is that God exists. Given your assumptions this gives the form a 90% accuracy rate vs the 33 you are trying to use.
    My point is that your being arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    A method of acquiring the truth which is only right 33% of the time (again, only assuming that Xtianity is true) cannot be called a reliable pathway to truth.
    you are still cherry picking. Your not taking all the truth claims gained through this, your cherry picking specific one.
    So the simplist "God exists" claim is agreed upon by just about everyone. Given the assumption you agree to (for sake of argument I know) it follows that it is 90% accurate in that intance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Children cannot reason in the way a fully-developed mind can. Which is why, when you think about it, they need to be able to rely on authorities to give them information on how to act and live.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Yes, a child, who cannot reason fully, needs to rely on an authority. This does not make the method a reliable pathway to truth. Luckily, for most mundane daily things, this method serves quite well. However, for claims like an invisible man in the sky and life after death, it is notoriously unreliable (only 33% accuracy).
    33% Is not agreed upon. You did not answer the question regarding how accurate is "reasonable". I'm assuming it isn't 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    The parents are the only source for a mind which cannot reason by itself. Once it can, the authority is no longer reasonable as a source by itself without any support.
    When it comes to Christianity, personal experience eventually is involved, and so it is no longer "because my mom said so".
    So I don't see this as particularly relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Hence it is not a reliable pathway to truth.
    Not MOST accurate =/= not accurate, and no reasonable person would accept it.
    Which is the bar you have to reach..a nd your not.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    I'm not sure I get your point here. What I'm saying is that, if we are going to use an authority as a pathway to truth, then the authority needs to be able to backup their claims. If we don't expect the authority to do so, then it's our own fault for not being rational and ending up believing something incorrect.
    Your not describing irrationality. .. your calling it that, but none of what you said here leads to "irrational to belive".

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    Well, I've seen my birth certificate, so your example doesn't really apply to me. But, by the time the child is able to reason fully, it's not just the parent's word that is offered. There's other family members' word, there's photographs - much much more than just the parent's word. As a child grows older and is able to reason better, the supporting evidence piles on so thick that it would be silly to think that the only reason they accept the people are their parents simply based on their word. Do you honestly claim that the only reason you, still to this day, believe that the people calling themselves are your parents, is simply because they say they are? Your example fails.
    Your saying. that personal experience comesinto play? Hey.. that is what I said above.
    Great we agree.

    So.. my example doesn't fail, your just shifting the frame of referance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUTURE
    The only example you provided was one where a child-mind, which is not able to reason fully, accepts that the people in a position of authority are their parents based solely on their word, before any other support is offered and the child no longer needs to accept it solely on the word of the authority. Please give an example where we (meaning people who are able to reason fully - not a child) take an authority's word on a claim simply because they are an authority and without any further support which that authority can provide to back up their claims.
    Well, basically in all the examples that don't have access or ability to have the kind of "evidence" that you saw.
    Like places that don't have cameras (like anything pre 1600s) or birth certificats as I am sure you wouldn't hold a family tree drawing on the same par as a gov issued birth certificate.

    As to other examples, I wasn't trying to limit to child mind stuff. You do it every time you ask someone "what did you do today", and then don't follow that up with a demand for some sort of documentation.
    To serve man.

 

 
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