Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 5 of 25 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 15 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 495
  1. #81
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,304
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Could you expand on that thought so I can be sure what you mean?
    LOL. I do not understand what you mean by "The Christian God calls for less than subjectivity at the very least." I know the definitions of each individual word, but the overall meaning escapes me. So I'm completely clueless as to how it is a special pleading.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #82
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    LOL. I do not understand what you mean by "The Christian God calls for less than subjectivity at the very least." I know the definitions of each individual word, but the overall meaning escapes me. So I'm completely clueless as to how it is a special pleading.
    You find the question funny?
    Your term "opaque" sounded quite insulting, but I wanted to make sure of your intent before commenting. Why would that be funny?

    To your question;
    the Christian God is somewhat clear in expectations. Subjectivity is at a minimum.

  3. #83
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,304
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You find the question funny?
    Your term "opaque" sounded quite insulting, but I wanted to make sure of your intent before commenting. Why would that be funny?
    No insult intended. No, I just find our continuing mutual inability to communicate effectively with each other to be funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    To your question;
    the Christian God is somewhat clear in expectations. Subjectivity is at a minimum.
    Not true in a lot of cases. Just one example that jumps to mind is the use of parables by Jesus. The Golden Rule is another. There are lots of things in the Bible that have to be read and reread and connected with other parts of the Bible to understand. Much of it can be a bit unclear even then. But I think that is intentional - making people read and reread to understand promotes discussions among Christians and with others.

    So, I'm still at a loss to understand what you think is a special pleading. Explain please. And are you sure you understand what a special pleading fallacy is? No offense intended.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #84
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No insult intended. No, I just find our continuing mutual inability to communicate effectively with each other to be funny.
    Hmmm. Ok, I guess.
    I thought we were communicating fairly well, but I will take you at your word

  5. #85
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Not true in a lot of cases. Just one example that jumps to mind is the use of parables by Jesus. The Golden Rule is another.
    While that is true, I don't see that it affects my point much. Many important aspects are quite clear, as in Jesus is God or not or salvation. These type of things are quite clear and carry the weight of living for eternity with God or not.

    ---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So, I'm still at a loss to understand what you think is a special pleading. Explain please. And are you sure you understand what a special pleading fallacy is? No offense intended.
    No offense taken. In this, you may be correct also. This is my first and only debate site, and really the only time I have ever tried to debate. So ya, you could be right.

    However, we agree (for instance) that there is no way to discern for sure if the New Testament is the true word of God. This is a detail all religious text share. There has been no other reasoning offered that is not quite subjective. If we had a Rabbi or Muslim cleric speaking with us, I am very sure they could make a great case why their religious choice was correct. It also would be incredibly similar to your argument for Christianity. You all you the same types of evidence and argumentation.

    If I were an alien that just landed here and knew nothing of human's (but could communicate with us) and heard the competing claims. I would conclude they (the three religions we are discussing) are equally likely to be true. I realize you do not think they are equally likely, but the only evidence you have offered reaches the same level of certainty as the other two.

    Perhaps not special pleading, but flawed logic, even though you still may have reached the correct answer...

    I find all three very unlikely as they all describe a God that would not leave it up to interpretation or argumentation as to whether they existed or not at all.

  6. #86
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,304
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Yes and no on the equality. Yes, none of them can be conclusively proven based on pure facts. But no, they are not equal in terms of supporting data. The death and resurrection of Christ had witnesses. Prophecies were fulfilled. And more after that, though I'm not going to go into detail. Islam has one guy with some visions. And Judaism seems to ignore the evidence that Christianity offers.

    I think I'm done here. There are lots of resources on the internet you can read, or maybe someone else will be willing to take over and explain it better than I have. Or, maybe, you might want to stop by your local church and meet the pastor, who would probably be willing to spend some time with you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #87
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes and no on the equality. Yes, none of them can be conclusively proven based on pure facts. But no, they are not equal in terms of supporting data.
    And again, here is the issue. A Rabbi would tell me something very similar. But his claims can not be proven on "pure facts" either.

    ---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The death and resurrection of Christ had witnesses. Prophecies were fulfilled. And more after that, though I'm not going to go into detail.
    Jews and Muslims do not believe that it happened at all. They would have been there to witness as well. But again, their claims that conflict carry no more weight than Christianity

    ---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Islam has one guy with some visions. And Judaism seems to ignore the evidence that Christianity offers.
    The Bible has a guy with visions (of course not how the Bible came to be).
    Judaism would claim Christians are ignoring their evidence.

    This is one of them he said/she said things. All three religions offer similar support and evidence of their claims, yet all three or even two, can not be true, as they conflict at a basic level (being able to spend eternity with God for instance).

    ---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think I'm done here.
    As you wish, I hope I have not inadvertently said something wrong.

    I appreciate you sharing something so personal and I hope you have a good night sir.

  8. #88
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Hi, Futureboy. New here. Gotta get started somewhere...and this was the first thread to catch my eye.

    I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified.

    Neither, however, are atheistic "beliefs."

    Some atheists assert that they have no "beliefs"...but some do. The "beliefs" of those atheists are as suspect as the "beliefs" of theists.

    It seems to me to be important to recognize that in the context of "religion"...most, perhaps all, "beliefs" are not rationally justified. They are just "beliefs"...guesses, of a sort, about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Do you agree?

  9. #89
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Hi, Futureboy. New here. Gotta get started somewhere...and this was the first thread to catch my eye.

    I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified.

    Neither, however, are atheistic "beliefs."

    Some atheists assert that they have no "beliefs"...but some do. The "beliefs" of those atheists are as suspect as the "beliefs" of theists.

    It seems to me to be important to recognize that in the context of "religion"...most, perhaps all, "beliefs" are not rationally justified. They are just "beliefs"...guesses, of a sort, about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Do you agree?
    Good day sir, I hope you enjoy your stay here at ODN


    You have an interesting view point, and generally, I agree...

    What are your feelings on agnostics?

  10. #90
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    What are your feelings on agnostics?
    I am an agnostic, so obviously I have chosen it as the preferred position to take. My personal agnostic position is:

    I do not know if gods exist or not;
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

    ...so I don't.


    I have no problem with people who do make guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence (about the existence or non-existence of gods, for instance)...but I do see a problem with those people calling their guesses "beliefs"...and then demanding that propriety requires that they be "respected."

  11. #91
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Just to say, beliefs don't need to be rationally justified, as they are beliefs. If one saw evidence, it is not a belief anymore. You could believe what you read is correct, or incorrect, you could believe the evidence has been tricked but the thesis itself, as long as it is directly connected to the evidence, is not. It is a conclusion reached through logical deduction.
    I'd like to add that it is imporssible to prove that something doesn't exist

  12. #92
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by JeanDupont View Post
    Just to say, beliefs don't need to be rationally justified, as they are beliefs.
    I agree, Jean.

    And when using "beliefs" in a religious context...they are essentially blind guesses. We do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and almost anything is possible. Just about everything said about whether gods exist or do not exist in REALITY...are guesses.

    Some guesses seem to have more substance. The "god" of the Bible seems unlikely to me from a variety of perspectives. Most of the "gods" that have been worshiped on planet Earth seem every bit as unlikely.




    If one saw evidence, it is not a belief anymore. You could believe what you read is correct, or incorrect, you could believe the evidence has been tricked but the thesis itself, as long as it is directly connected to the evidence, is not. It is a conclusion reached through logical deduction.
    Not sure about that last sentence, but the first made lots of sense, although using the word "guess" where you used "belief" would have made it more substantial to me.



    I'd like to add that it is imporssible to prove that something doesn't exist
    It certainly is difficult in some contexts, but I think "impossible" is too strong.

    One can assert: There are no live, visible elephants existing in my top, left desk drawer. And you can "prove" that by opening the drawer.

    But I acknowledge that proving there are no gods...is ia totally different matter.

  13. #93
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Hi, Futureboy. New here. Gotta get started somewhere...and this was the first thread to catch my eye.

    I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified.

    Neither, however, are atheistic "beliefs."

    Some atheists assert that they have no "beliefs"...but some do. The "beliefs" of those atheists are as suspect as the "beliefs" of theists.

    It seems to me to be important to recognize that in the context of "religion"...most, perhaps all, "beliefs" are not rationally justified. They are just "beliefs"...guesses, of a sort, about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Do you agree?
    Forgive me for piping up, and welcome aboard!

    I agree that, logically, two conflicting theistic and opposite beliefs cannot both be true. Now for some points of contention.

    I do not agree that EVERY theistic elief is false (John 4:23-24).

    All atheists have beliefs. I believe that atheistic beliefs cannot be logically supported when you get to the core that atheism revolves around/rests upon.

    When you say that all "religious beliefs" (of which I could argue that atheism and agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief) are guesses, you are making what I see as a self-refuting statement. It questions its own truth claim. How do you know all beliefs are guesses?

    Peter

  14. #94
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Forgive me for piping up, and welcome aboard!

    I agree that, logically, two conflicting theistic and opposite beliefs cannot both be true. Now for some points of contention.

    I do not agree that EVERY theistic elief is false (John 4:23-24).
    I have never said that EVERY theistic belief is false...nor would I.

    One theistic "belief" is that a god of some kind exists.

    Could be true; could be false.

    So we agree on that...not disagree.

    (I have no idea of why you suppose the John quote you offered is appropriate or germane.)


    All atheists have beliefs. I believe that atheistic beliefs cannot be logically supported when you get to the core that atheism revolves around/rests upon.
    I suspect that most atheists make guesses about the REALITY...just as theists make guesses about the REALITY.

    Guesses normally cannot be "rationally justified."

    When you say that all "religious beliefs" (of which I could argue that atheism and agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief) are guesses, you are making what I see as a self-refuting statement.
    You are paraphrasing there, Peter.

    If you quote what I said, I will defend what I said.

    I am suggesting that any religious context comments (referred to as a "belief") about the true nature of the REALITY of existence is a guess. If you can give me an example of one that isn't, I certainly will consider it. It seems to me that none of us KNOWS the true nature of the REALITY of existence.


    It questions its own truth claim. How do you know all beliefs are guesses?
    I did not say that all beliefs are guesses. Please quote what I said...and question that. I'll be delighted to defend anything I actually said.

    ******

    Peter, on a personal note, I am a four day a week golfer (although with an index in the mid-20's) so your screen name in interesting to me. Are you a pro?

  15. #95
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am an agnostic, so obviously I have chosen it as the preferred position to take. My personal agnostic position is:

    I do not know if gods exist or not;
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

    ...so I don't.


    I have no problem with people who do make guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence (about the existence or non-existence of gods, for instance)...but I do see a problem with those people calling their guesses "beliefs"...and then demanding that propriety requires that they be "respected."
    Here we agree. "A God" may exist. however some particular "Gods" have been proven to not exist (Thor for instance).

    ---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I agree that, logically, two conflicting theistic and opposite beliefs cannot both be true.
    Agreed

    ---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I do not agree that EVERY theistic elief is false (John 4:23-24).
    And you may be correct. The issue however, is you could be wrong and no God exists.

    ---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    All atheists have beliefs. I believe that atheistic beliefs cannot be logically supported when you get to the core that atheism revolves around/rests upon.
    I have not argued it before, but my gut feeling is you are correct here.

    ---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    When you say that all "religious beliefs" (of which I could argue that atheism and agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief) are guesses, you are making what I see as a self-refuting statement. It questions its own truth claim. How do you know all beliefs are guesses?

    Peter
    I am most curious to here how "agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief" ??

  16. #96
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I have never said that EVERY theistic belief is false...nor would I.
    Perhaps you needed to clarify your statements further, and now have:


    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    [1] I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified...[2] It seems to me to be important to recognize that in the context of "religion"...most, perhaps all, "beliefs" are not rationally justified.
    [1] You did not qualify further, so the statement "theistic beliefs" would include all of them.

    [2] Perhaps all are not rational suggests that no one can be trusted as true, at least in your mind (but what makes your mind or my mind the gauge that truth is derived from?); its all a matter of subjective opinion by your worldview analysis.

    I would ask, What would be necessary for a belief to be known as true, that it is certain, or without a doubt? I'll give you my thoughts and then you can counter:

    There would have to be a revelation from a Being who was omniscient and omnipotent, thus objective.

    Can your worldview qualify for having such a criteria? If so, then we can test its truth claims.

    If not then what makes your belief system any BETTER than any other? Is it because you say it is. If it is not 'better' then why should I, or anyone else, believe it? How do you qualify 'better' without an ultimate best as the measure? Do you just make it up? The world is replete with man-made/made-up systems all claiming to be better than the others. Wars are fought over such beliefs.

    I claim, and am willing to demonstrate to a reasonable degree, that my system of belief can be justified because of its foundation. I would claim that yours, if it is not the same, cannot.

    If you would like to test this out I would invite you to tell me what your beliefs are. I can also explain to you further why my beliefs are justifable - God has given proof via the Bible (Prophecy).


    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    (I have no idea of why you suppose the John quote you offered is appropriate or germane.)
    It is my way of identifying which belief system is true. I only support the biblical system as the true belief when rightly discerned. It is the only one I will defend.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    All atheists have beliefs. I believe that atheistic beliefs cannot be logically supported when you get to the core that atheism revolves around/rests upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I suspect that most atheists make guesses about the REALITY...just as theists make guesses about the REALITY.

    Guesses normally cannot be "rationally justified."
    That is the nature of a guess but I contend that the biblical revelation is the only justifiable system. It is a bold assertion that I believe can be shown with adequate reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    When you say that all "religious beliefs" (of which I could argue that atheism and agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief) are guesses, you are making what I see as a self-refuting statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    You are paraphrasing there, Peter.

    If you quote what I said, I will defend what I said.
    I tried to sum it up. What do you mean by ALL religious beliefs?

    It was an evaulation I made on the statement you issued. And I included atheism as a religious belief, that can be defended as such on particular criterion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    [1]I am suggesting that any religious context comments (referred to as a "belief") about the true nature of the REALITY of existence is a guess. If you can give me an example of one that isn't, I certainly will consider it. [2] It seems to me that none of us KNOWS the true nature of the REALITY of existence.
    [1] Although we cannot know in full since we are finite beings I believe we can know with certainty only if God exists and has revealed such facts to us. Otherwise, what makes your band of scholars the final word on anything?

    [2] When you say, "It seems to me...no one knows" it begs the question of how YOU know that no one knowss? Again, your statement is a self-refuting statement. It self-destructs in its claim. How do you know that no one knows?

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    It questions its own truth claim. How do you know all beliefs are guesses?
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I did not say that all beliefs are guesses. Please quote what I said...and question that. I'll be delighted to defend anything I actually said.
    Okay, either there is a God or there is not (logically). It is not an and/both, but an either/or.

    You say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified.

    Neither, however, are atheistic "beliefs...They [religious beliefs] are just "beliefs"...guesses, of a sort, about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.
    "
    What belief is left, given that you include atheism as a belief system? That is why I included atheism in my reply.

    I included atheism in the religious catergory because, in a sense, every religious belief worth its salt give credence to who we are, where we came from, why we are here, what difference it makes, and what happens to us when we die, plus we put our faith in our belief system. You have faith that what you believe is true, but I invite you to justify it.

    What belief system do you fit under, generalizing.

    ******

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Peter, on a personal note, I am a four day a week golfer (although with an index in the mid-20's) so your screen name in interesting to me. Are you a pro?
    (^8

    I would like to be a four day a week golfer. The weather in Canada does not permit that type of commitment. Neither does my bank account.

    My dad and mom gave me names that correspond to those initials. At one time he was close to a scratch golfer. He had a modest collection of golf trophies. He liked the game and I like the game.

    Peter



    ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------


    @Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I do not agree that EVERY theistic belief is false (John 4:23-24).
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    And you may be correct. The issue however, is you could be wrong and no God exists.
    My contention is that without God nothing ultimately makes sense, and why are you seeking to make sense of the world, the universe, and give it meaning/purpose? If there is no God, there is no ultimate meaning, no ultimate purpose, yet here you are with meaning and purpose.

    If I am wrong then why would anything in a random, chance universe makes sense and sustain itself, or matter? There is NO REASON that it would, yet you continue to give "it" reason and meaning. Why? It doesn't ultimately matter without God. How does chance DO anything? How can something without intent cause anything? The atheist ASSUMES it can. Big assumption coming from a subjective, relative limited mind.

    When you take the absence of God argument far enough I am convinced you end up in nihilism.

    Then, the Bible gives sufficient reason that we may trust it as the word of God. The revelation is that God chooses a particular people (Israel) to make Himself known to the world through and showcase His holiness and purity. He uses Israel as the vehicle to repair the relationship lost in Eden, for though Israel the geneology of the Son is traces who fulfills everything we could never (in our sinful state) accomplish - restroration to God for those who believe!

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    All atheists have beliefs. I believe that atheistic beliefs cannot be logically supported when you get to the core that atheism revolves around/rests upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I have not argued it before, but my gut feeling is you are correct here.
    I believe it is logical.
    From necessary personal Being comes other personal beings.
    From a rational Mind comes other reasoning and rational minds.
    From a meaningful Being comes meaning and purpose.

    Where do you witness personal, reasoning, purposeful, living beings coming from anything other than the same?
    How CAN something that is non-living become living?
    How can something devoid of intelligence, purpose, or intent sustain anything - indefinitely? It is like rolling six continually without ceasing. Some people ASSUME it (whatever it or this 'something' is - what is 'it?') can.
    First there has to be something to roll the dice, then there has to be something that fixes the six. People believe it can work in theory. Even though they can understand and notate an infinite series, they cannot demonstrate it in the real world, just in theory. In the same way, try rolling a six one billion times in sucecssion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I am most curious to here how "agnosticism fit the bill of a religious belief" ??
    The agnostic fits the same bill that any other religious belief fits; it attempts to answer life's ultimate questions but comes up with skepticism and uncertainty - ignorance.

    1) Who are we?
    2) Why are we here?
    3) Where did we come from?
    4) What difference does it make?
    5) What happens to us when we die?

    For some or all of these beliefs, there is the answer that "We don't know" (Ignoramous) but still, the speculation is via reason of uncertainty - they can never be sure.

    The irony I see with agnosticism is that the agnostic will still argue against all belief systems but his/her own, that he/she can't know anything as certain, neither can anyone else.

    Are we just biological bags of matter or is there more to us?
    Are we really here or is this all a figment of the mind; if just a figment, why look both ways when crossing the street? Why take the time? Why would it matter? Their belief system would break down and be inconsistent at this point.
    Is there a God or is everything matter and energy? Is the universe all there is, was, or ever will be? They don't know. Thus, they don't know how we got to be, but many argue against and exclude God from the equation as the likely explanation.
    They don't really know what they believe makes any difference. How can it ultimately if there is no God?
    They don't know what happens when we die, or whether it matters.
    Many are what some would call softcore atheists who still believe what atheists have been indoctrinated to believe (the requisite of atheism), yet even here, they have their doubts because they are forever skeptics, non-commital, intellectual islands in mid-air.

    Peter

  17. #97
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post

    My contention is that without God nothing ultimately makes sense, and why are you seeking to make sense of the world, the universe, and give it meaning/purpose?
    Why would it be that the universe MUST make sense to human's to be true?
    It's quite possible that there is no "purpose". Most people don't affect the world much. What purpose do they serve?

    ---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    How CAN something that is non-living become living?
    Interesting question indeed.

    Look at a virus or motor proteins. They can move and do all kinds of stuff but are said to not be alive. Without them you would be dead.
    There are more bacteria living in the human body than the number of human cells.

    Whatever is going on, it's obvious we come from non-living material somehow. After all, even by your world view, god made us from non-living stuff (or he "recycled" us from other living organisms somehow).

    ---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    The agnostic fits the same bill that any other religious belief fits; it attempts to answer life's ultimate questions but comes up with skepticism and uncertainty - ignorance.

    1) Who are we?
    2) Why are we here?
    3) Where did we come from?
    4) What difference does it make?
    5) What happens to us when we die?
    I strongly disagree here! This is not the case at all. It's a whole bunch closer to, agnostic doesn't have enough info make an intelligent choice, so such a choice is withheld.


    But, to comment on your questions:
    #2. The question presupposes that there is indeed an answer where none may exist.
    #4. Seemingly little, except to you and the "few" people around you. Vast billions of people will never know, nor care since an individual person makes little difference in the world.

    #5. You go back to what and where you were before you became alive.

    ---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    The irony I see with agnosticism is that the agnostic will still argue against all belief systems but his/her own, that he/she can't know anything as certain, neither can anyone else.
    It's not all that ironic.

    Choosing a particular religion pretty much is special pleading. All religions use similar arguments and "evidence" (if it could be proven one religion is true, we could have mid east peace).

    Another way to say it is, an agnostic can side with each religion when they think all the others are wrong and the reasons why.

    ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Then, the Bible gives sufficient reason that we may trust it as the word of God.
    If I may ask:

    Let us say you and I are friends. You rob a bank. I don't want you to get in trouble, so I confess to the robbery, am convicted and sent to jail.

    Has justice been served?

  18. #98
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I would ask, What would be necessary for a belief to be known as true, that it is certain, or without a doubt? I'll give you my thoughts and then you can counter:

    There would have to be a revelation from a Being who was omniscient and omnipotent, thus objective.
    You do realize there could be a "god" that is not omniscient nor omnipotent, right?

    You do realize that the true nature of the REALITY of existence could be something much, much, much more complex than a "god" concept?

    Can your worldview qualify for having such a criteria? If so, then we can test its truth claims.
    Yeah, my "worldview" is that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and therefore cannot exclude the possibility of gods...nor can I exclude the possibility of no gods.

    If you want to "test" whether I do not know it, I am willing to testify under oath. I am, after all, the world's foremost authority on what I do not know.



    I claim, and am willing to demonstrate to a reasonable degree, that my system of belief can be justified because of its foundation. I would claim that yours, if it is not the same, cannot.
    The greatest minds the planet has ever known have grappled with this question and come up short. But if you think you can "justify" your blind guesses that gods exist...don't bother. You don't need to justify a guess.

    If you would like to test this out I would invite you to tell me what your beliefs are.
    On questions like "Do gods exist?"...I do not have beliefs or guesses. I've already offered a description of my agnosticism. Take another look at it.



    I can also explain to you further why my beliefs are justifable - God has given proof via the Bible (Prophecy).
    I doubt you can do that justice, but I am willing to listen to anyone try explain their religious guesses.


    You covered lots of stuff in your post, Peter...and I have responded to just a bit. Let's try to discuss this in a more coherent way. Let's take what you think to be the most salient item...discuss it and then move on. The scattergun approach seldom works.

  19. #99
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I would ask, What would be necessary for a belief to be known as true, that it is certain, or without a doubt? I'll give you my thoughts and then you can counter:

    There would have to be a revelation from a Being who was omniscient and omnipotent, thus objective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    You do realize there could be a "god" that is not omniscient nor omnipotent, right?

    You do realize that the true nature of the REALITY of existence could be something much, much, much more complex than a "god" concept?
    What I realize is this is spoken by someone who doesn't know.
    What I realize is that it is pure fiction unless you can offer something other than 'what-if' make-believe, maybe. If you are able to do that convincingly it would be easier to believe than this hype and speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    Can your worldview qualify for having such a criteria? If so, then we can test its truth claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Yeah, my "worldview" is that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and therefore cannot exclude the possibility of gods...nor can I exclude the possibility of no gods.

    If you want to "test" whether I do not know it, I am willing to testify under oath. I am, after all, the world's foremost authority on what I do not know.
    So, are you coming from a position of ignorance then?

    Logically, does your core beliefs make sense then? (By core beliefs I mean those that everything else hinges on)

    Which is more logical?
    1) A logical personal omniscient Being created the universe.
    2) The universe is here by blind, unintelligent, unguided, illogical chance.
    Please explain!


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I claim, and am willing to demonstrate to a reasonable degree, that my system of belief can be justified because of its foundation. I would claim that yours, if it is not the same, cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    The greatest minds the planet has ever known have grappled with this question and come up short. But if you think you can "justify" your blind guesses that gods exist...don't bother. You don't need to justify a guess.
    Lots claim otherwise.
    My 'guesses' are not blind and I do not believe "gods" are anything other than man-made. God, on the other hand, is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    If you would like to test this out I would invite you to tell me what your beliefs are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    On questions like "Do gods exist?"...I do not have beliefs or guesses. I've already offered a description of my agnosticism. Take another look at it.
    I'll look at it and tackle the post itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I doubt you can do that justice, but I am willing to listen to anyone try explain their religious guesses.
    It boils down to justifying that it is most reasonable and logical to believe that God has revealed Himself via the Bible and confirmed He is who He claims to be by prophecy (telling events that would happen before they did, and in great detail).

    Then, another avenue is to invite you to make sense of anything without first presupposing God exists and see if there is any sense to be made from your position (or is God necessary to make sense?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    You covered lots of stuff in your post, Peter...and I have responded to just a bit. Let's try to discuss this in a more coherent way. Let's take what you think to be the most salient item...discuss it and then move on. The scattergun approach seldom works.
    The Bible is mainly concerned about two covenants.

    The OT is mainly addressing a people God chose to make Himself known to the world. Through these people God would send a Messiah to save them. They agree to be His people and He agrees to be their God by a conditional covenant relationship. Through that relationship God promises to set up a 'better covenant' as well as judging the covenant people for their sins. He continually warns these people to turn from false gods by sending prophets to them that predict what will happen in the short term and sometimes the long term. The long term is A.D. 70 when He brings that Old Covenant to an end. The proof is in the prophecy and is quite detailed (so much so that most people, including Christians are ill-informed).

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    My contention is that without God nothing ultimately makes sense, and why are you seeking to make sense of the world, the universe, and give it meaning/purpose?
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Why would it be that the universe MUST make sense to human's to be true?
    Because if it doesn't then how do you know that anything is true? Do you exist, or am I just having this conversation with me, myself, and I? Or is PGA2 just a figment of your imagination?

    Is physical reality all there is or is there something more significant?

    Why are you making it matter?

    If God does not exist and there is no ultimate purpose what does anything matter?
    What does it matter if you or I die now? Nothing for nothing meaningful is indifferent, and nothing is what we come from and return to.

    Why? What is more reasonable to believe? Do you want to construct your beliefs on the irrational and meaningless?

    Where do you SEE meaning coming from the meaningless?
    Where do you SEE life arising from non-life? You don't, yet you believe it can without a shred of evidence, just pure supposition built on the back of others with the same currency (like sheep to the slaughter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It's quite possible that there is no "purpose". Most people don't affect the world much. What purpose do they serve?
    If there is no purpose what is the point in making one? Why do you spend your whole life looking for meaning and purpose? I have an answer: God has made us human beings to seek Him out, but because of the Fall we prefer to do our own thing and go against reason and logic in doing so. It's senseless to look for meaing in a meaningless universe. How would you ever find it?

    ---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    How CAN something that is non-living become living?
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Interesting question indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Look at a virus or motor proteins. They can move and do all kinds of stuff but are said to not be alive. Without them you would be dead.
    There are more bacteria living in the human body than the number of human cells.
    How do you explain how they can is more the question I am interested in.

    It makes you wonder how pure, unadulterated chance can produce and sustain such complicated systems. In fact, tell me what 'chance' can do since there is no intention behind it. How do you get uniformity of nature in a random chance universe? (IOW's, why is anything able to be sustained for long, almost infinite periods of time? Back to the dice roll. Roll six repeatedly, indefinitely without fixing the dice. Just the fact that you decide to roll the dice creates what is necessary to make them move, then to make them consistently throw the same number requires information, intention, and intelligence from an intelligent being, among other definites. In theory, you can roll six one out of six times but how many times in a row can you roll six without fixing them? Now consider a dice with 100 or a million numbers on it, if that were possible, and continue to roll six)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Whatever is going on, it's obvious we come from non-living material somehow. After all, even by your world view, god made us from non-living stuff (or he "recycled" us from other living organisms somehow).
    That's just the thing. It doesn't make sense, nor can it, nor do you ever witness such a 'process.'

    ---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The agnostic fits the same bill that any other religious belief fits; it attempts to answer life's ultimate questions but comes up with skepticism and uncertainty - ignorance.

    1) Who are we?
    2) Why are we here?
    3) Where did we come from?
    4) What difference does it make?
    5) What happens to us when we die?
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I strongly disagree here! This is not the case at all. It's a whole bunch closer to, agnostic doesn't have enough info make an intelligent choice, so such a choice is withheld.
    I don't think there is lack of information to reach the right conclusion. I think the agnostic does not want to make the logical decision. It interferes with self-autonomy, the same problem Adam discovered in the Garden when He decided to go it alone, without God's guidance.

    But, if you want to believe otherwise, who am I to tell you contrary to what you will accept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    But, to comment on your questions:
    #2. The question presupposes that there is indeed an answer where none may exist.
    Yes, it does. It presumes that somethings actually matter, like truth/true belief and justice. You are looking for an answer because you believe one exists, or you are just wasting your time and are on the way to nihilism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    #4. Seemingly little, except to you and the "few" people around you. Vast billions of people will never know, nor care since an individual person makes little difference in the world.
    What difference it makes tackles the issue of meaning.

    If you say there is no ultimate meaning, then don't also tell me that some things are 'good' and others are 'bad' for the very fact that you will be inconsistent with your core beliefs that there is no meaning.

    One thing I know; when someone is inconsistent with what they say they believe (no meaning while making a meaningful statement) they are showing that their belief is illogical or contradictory.

    These people have to borrow from my Christian worldview belief to justify their own which is inconsistent with their own and their worldview lacks what is necessary to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    #5. You go back to what and where you were before you became alive.
    Ah, you plead ignorance on other points but here on #5 you state something that is true, or you are again in blissful ignorance? Which is it? Are you making an absolute, irrefutable statement on what happens?

    The problem with agnosticism is that it can never know. The problem without an objective, ultimate Being revealing what is is that we are all in this camp, stumbling in the dark (John 1:4).

    ---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    The irony I see with agnosticism is that the agnostic will still argue against all belief systems but his/her own, that he/she can't know anything as certain, neither can anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It's not all that ironic.
    I disagree. Arguing against something for the sake of argument without having a sufficient contrary and logical explanation that is based on truth or what is necessary for truth is what I would call foolish. It always boils down to, How do you know and what is necessary for you to know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Choosing a particular religion pretty much is special pleading. All religions use similar arguments and "evidence" (if it could be proven one religion is true, we could have mid east peace).
    Do you not think that pleading that there is no way of knowing is also special pleading?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Another way to say it is, an agnostic can side with each religion when they think all the others are wrong and the reasons why.
    And never know what is true!

    The problem with siding for each religious belief is that each one contradicts the other and therefore, logically, they cannot all be true. ONLY ONE can, if any.

    ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    Then, the Bible gives sufficient reason that we may trust it as the word of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If I may ask:

    Let us say you and I are friends. You rob a bank. I don't want you to get in trouble, so I confess to the robbery, am convicted and sent to jail.

    Has justice been served?
    No, and I know where you are going with this.

    What happens if you have a debt that you can never afford to pay (an infinite amount/wrong)? What happens if there is One who is owed who can make the payment for you (forgive the debt or offense)? Would you accept the payment or would you insist on paying off the debt by your means, forever?

    Since God is the offended One, He has the right to forgive the debt. But as I said, to do this and remain just He must have His justice satisfied.

    So, now I ask you:
    What makes you think you have lived a "good enough" life to qualify for God's forgiveness if such a God exists because
    a) God is perfectly righteous and holy/pure,
    b) God is just and will punish evil, and
    c) God has offered to pay the debt for us, and at the same time satisfy His justice.

    Peter

  20. #100
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    My 'guesses' are not blind and I do not believe "gods" are anything other than man-made. God, on the other hand, is not.


    Peter
    With all the respect in the world, Peter...your blind guesses that gods exist...especially that a particular "God" exists...are indeed nothing more than blind guesses.

    You probably start by blindly guessing that the Bible contains some truths about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Am I correct on that?

    I will stick with my acknowledgement that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY...and I am mystified by your thoughts that my acknowledgement is somehow inferior to your blind guesses.

    I certainly am willing to make blind guesses...and will gladly flip a coin on the question of the existence of gods...if you can give me some reasonable evidence that doing so would be superior to my present position.

 

 
Page 5 of 25 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 15 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Philosophy: Does a necessary beng exist, and is it consistent with the theistic God?
    By cstamford in forum Member Articles & Essays
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: October 15th, 2015, 05:02 AM
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: April 25th, 2015, 08:37 AM
  3. The Theistic Definition Thread
    By Meng Bomin in forum Religion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: January 26th, 2007, 01:13 PM
  4. Theistic Evolution????
    By nanderson in forum Religion
    Replies: 152
    Last Post: April 13th, 2006, 05:53 AM
  5. Theistic Death
    By Iluvatar in forum Religion
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: April 2nd, 2005, 07:01 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •