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  1. #621
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    You said:
    "Setting aside the objectivity question that prompted this"
    so the "objectivity" point is still unrebutted.
    There was a miscommunication. When I said that it was set aside, I was referring to your response. You didn't address my rebuttal, so I assumed you had set it aside. In post 611 you didn't address or defend objectivity, you simply invoked it again, but in the context of a different point you were making. Thus I inferred you had moved beyond that point. If you wish to still argue it for some reason you’d need to address the rebuttal I offered in post 608, that being part of a different instance of the same process does not make one more objective as to the nature of that process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    I see no reason for biologists opinions here.
    You are literally the only person I have ever talked with that promoted that life evolved from simple to complex and then God gave only one of the Great Apes sentience and that was the "first humans"!....
    I’m sorry you haven’t had more experience with this position, it is quite common in Christian circles in a whole variety of forms. It is common to all ID thinking, theistic evolution, old earth creationism, really every train of Christian thought on the matter that isn’t young earth creationism (which is relatively small as an intellectual movement).

    I think the opinions of biologists are incredibly important when we are discussing biological matters. We just need to be careful to not carry over assumptions from one field to a different one. Just like when people carry over their every day language into law and get worked up about Citizens United. If we conflate definitions across fields we are going to draw incorrect conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    "Speciation" is a human construct is it not?
    Our alien friends likely would not classify Earth life in the same way as humans.
    Biologists would argue that it isn’t. That they are trying to describe something objectively true. I mean clearly there is an objective classification difference between a sea star and a manatee. The question is how do we understand that difference and whose definition most correctly fits the underlying, objective mechanism. [To be fair, evolutionary biologists are in a bit of a crises as they are having a harder and harder time defining exactly what mechanism gives rise to that change].
    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    On this point I am thinking you are right..?...
    You see Evolution basically as true. The difference seems, when God picks one of the Apes to be sentient (human).
    I will wait to comment on this line further till you have had a chance to say agree/don't agree (in one of your kinda cryptic/esoteric responses... )
    Oh you called it. Cryptic it shall be.

    I am totally fine with evolutionary processes being the final answer, but I’m not sure I would necessarily subscribe to them. There are a lot of current flaws in evolutionary biology (I wish Chad the geneticist were still here) that I think can lead to some reasonable doubt. And even a quick perusal of an evolutionary biology journal will find some pretty fundamental disagreements about what/if that process is.

    Sufficed to say that I am agnostic on exactly the mechanism used to bring about biological diversity on this planet, but that none of the current contenders really seem to be an issue for me aside from the materialist “blind evolution” (which I’m not very concerned about because evolutionary biologists also don’t hold that position).

    TLDR version: Yes I more or less agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    Basically I agree, save this "Eve" has a more diverse DNA pool than a truly "first" human, and the point you are missing, is all of the males she and her children had sex with would not be directly related so no incest issue and no "Adam".
    Your Eve was not the first human woman (pre your source), and no Adam (first human man) is even speculated on.
    So:
    1. your source does not lend any credibility to Genesis
    2. your source does not lend any credibility to your claim that "all humans are the product of incest".
    I’m not sure what you mean when you say that Eve “has a more diverse DNA pool than a truly ‘first’ human…” How so? Diverse in what aspect?

    No male is speculated on because we don’t pass along mitochondrial DNA of course. It isn’t some argument that there wasn’t one (hell by definition there has to be a first if we are going to have any kind of speciation definition), just that this form of genetic analysis plays no part in male understanding.

    You are also assuming, against human social and genetic construct, polyandry. Humans are generally monogamous partners (especially in more austere environments where teamwork means survival), and even when we create social constructs that aren’t, polyandry is vanishingly rare (there are exactly two instances of it that I’m aware of, both in societies well under 1000 people).

    I would disagree with you assessment, on both counts. The second claim is certainly not something I’ve said, but something you’ve tried to use to put words in my mouth, so I can put that claim aside since it isn’t something I’ve said nor something I support. The first claim depends on what assumption you bring to the evidence. It is certainly true that it lends credibility to the Genesis account when compared to traditional views on speciation evolution which hold that large swaths of the population continually migrate and dilute DNA alterations and that populations do not bottleneck in this way. In that sense it is a revolutionary finding (which is why it is so discussed in biological literature, obviously not for its theological implications) and paints a story that is far more like the Genesis account than the standard evolutionary account. That, at least, adds some credibility (even if you think it is vanishingly small) to Genesis..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    You are of course correct here, my apologies.
    Ahh, I could never stay mad at you. 

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    You gave the premise, "Adam & Eve" being the "first two humans", but also suggested they had "ancestors". I was commenting on that thought.
    Again I will say, you are the ONLY person ever to suggest to me that Eve had ANY ancestors.
    Only person you’ve met, right? 

    Your statement was: “If there were humans before Adam an Eve, then they were not the first humans.” My point was, in order for us to answer this question, I need to know what you mean by “human.” Were Eve’s ancestors humans or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel
    I know you are saying this does not conflict with Genesis (though I think this is a minority position for a Christian), though does it square with
    "created in the image of God"?
    If God had picked a different Great Ape to grant sentience to, they would be the "human"?
    Since all us apes are related thru evolution we all must be in the "image" or is sentience all that matters to be the "image"?
    Given, as I discussed earlier, that God is spirit, thus without physical form, image can only refer to non-physical traits. There is certainly no discussion in any Jewish or Christian literature that I’m aware of that our “image” refers to anything physical about us.

    But we also need to be careful, because we aren’t defining human as solely as being created in the image of God. This would fall into Docetism, which is a whole set of problems. The answer to your question is I have no idea fully why this particular form was chosen by God to be the physical aspect of humans versus, say Gigantopithicus. This, to some sense, gets back to the asteroid question, is it possible? I guess, I’m not sure why the possibility matters. It certainly isn’t the aspect of our humanity that God has emphasized with us in the Torah, OT, or NT.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #622
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    There was a miscommunication. When I said that it was set aside, I was referring to your response. You didn't address my rebuttal, so I assumed you had set it aside.
    In post #608 you just kinda waved your hand and say all life is "part of the same process" so my point didn't matter.
    Though you didn't show all life anywhere/everywhere in the universe started in the same way and had the same evolutionary pressures. Even If you can do that, they would still see life going from just an "animal" to sentience" before their "eyes". Something humans can not witness/experience/observe. They also could have "seen" how/when life started on Earth which is another perspective humans just can not have.

    Further even if that were the case, you gave no reason why an unrelated observer is necessarily less or equally objective as that which is being observed.

    ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I’m sorry you haven’t had more experience with this position, it is quite common in Christian circles in a whole variety of forms. It is common to all ID thinking, theistic evolution, old earth creationism, really every train of Christian thought on the matter that isn’t young earth creationism (which is relatively small as an intellectual movement).
    I wonder if you can find a Christian on ODN that agrees with you?
    Actually, I just did a search and will say that the % is much higher than my personal experience would allow, though it still is no where near the mainstream everybody believes it:
    https://www.christianpost.com/news/h...w-you-ask.html
    "If you ask white evangelical Protestants whether they believe “humans have evolved over time,” 32 percent agree that they have"

    Even the 71% estimate leaves nearly a third not believing.

    ---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Biologists would argue that it isn’t. That they are trying to describe something objectively true. I mean clearly there is an objective classification difference between a sea star and a manatee. The question is how do we understand that difference and whose definition most correctly fits the underlying, objective mechanism. [To be fair, evolutionary biologists are in a bit of a crises as they are having a harder and harder time defining exactly what mechanism gives rise to that change].
    In a way that makes "sense to humans" yes?

    Would an alien life form based on silicon instead of carbon see it the same way?

    ---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I’m not sure what you mean when you say that Eve “has a more diverse DNA pool than a truly ‘first’ human…” How so? Diverse in what aspect?
    Since you ascribe to evolution this matters not as much I'm thinkin, but, a first human would have no history of mutations/adaptations/or a mixing of ancestry in general. No immunities, possibly no recessive traits. I could be wrong, but DNA would seem to have differences if one had no ancestors at all?

    ---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    No male is speculated on because we don’t pass along mitochondrial DNA of course. It isn’t some argument that there wasn’t one (hell by definition there has to be a first if we are going to have any kind of speciation definition), just that this form of genetic analysis plays no part in male understanding.
    Oh, then just what I said.
    Your source does not lend support to a first human male! Agreement!

    Again, it also does not lend support to an actual first human female either, just to humans born after she was born, not before. The many generations prior shows conclusively she was not the first female human.
    Your "bottleneck" of current generations matters little to this fact.

    ---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Humans are generally monogamous partners (especially in more austere environments where teamwork means survival).
    Where in the HELL did you get that idea? I wait with bated breath your support of this position!

    http://www.creditdonkey.com/infidelity-statistics.html

    Now when looking at these stats above consider:
    % of humans that mate for life, not just who has an affair/cheats!
    IOW, how many people only have ONE sexual partner, total? Because you only have sex with one person at a time hardly makes one monogamous.

    ---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The second claim is certainly not something I’ve said, but something you’ve tried to use to put words in my mouth, so I can put that claim aside since it isn’t something I’ve said nor something I support.
    This is a disappointing comment. I would not do that, certainly not intentionally, and in this case NOT at all.
    Should you care to challenge me, I will go back till I find the quote (it is before page 16 because I got that far before I ran out of time) but I believe our conversation went pretty close to:
    Me: if you believe in Adam and Eve then you believe ALL humans since then are the product of incest?
    You: so do you since you believe in evolution
    Me: so what was first, the chicken or egg? answer, there was no first chicken, no first chicken egg, nor first human

    You (as of now), just because there was one human male and one human female that started the entire human race does not mean I said incest was involved.....


    Yes you did say it, no you can not set it aside!
    If you support only two humans started the human race, then all humans since then are a product of incest. There is no alternative that you have forwarded.

    ---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I would disagree with you assessment, on both counts.
    Your source shows human females existed before your "Eve" and doesn't speak to males at all so no, it doesn't support Genesis, at all.

    ---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Ahh, I could never stay mad at you. 
    What do you mean "stay" mad? You have been mad at me before
    j/k

    ---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Ahh, I could never stay mad at you. 
    I appreciate that since our relationship so far is mostly "adversarial"

    I really enjoy talking with you!

    ---------- Post added at 06:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Only person you’ve met, right? 
    Well, no. You have spoken with MT (for instance) yes? He is very Christian and disagrees with you all over the place (not to put words in his mouth, but he is on record recently on ODN stating he only believes in "micro evolution", not evolution in general). In fact, I can't think of a theist on ODN that shared your opinion, but I may be wrong...

    ---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Your statement was: “If there were humans before Adam an Eve, then they were not the first humans.” My point was, in order for us to answer this question, I need to know what you mean by “human.” Were Eve’s ancestors humans or something else?
    I get that now, however my previous understanding was "first" meant nothing/no ancestor before.

    I haven't raised that distinction though. I just see humans as any other life on earth mostly.

    ---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The answer to your question is I have no idea fully why this particular form was chosen by God to be the physical aspect of humans versus, say Gigantopithicus.
    Actually your answer is:
    "yes, there is nothing special about humans except God granted us alone "sentience".

 

 
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