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  1. #101
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    My 'guesses' are not blind and I do not believe "gods" are anything other than man-made. God, on the other hand, is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    With all the respect in the world, Peter...your blind guesses that gods exist...especially that a particular "God" exists...are indeed nothing more than blind guesses.

    You probably start by blindly guessing that the Bible contains some truths about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Am I correct on that?
    I do not believe gods exist but are man-made objects of worship, false idols. I believe God exists. What are gods but what people put in the place of the true and living God?

    You may think that but when I read the Bible for the first time I took it for what it claimed, to be God speaking, a written revelation of Him and His dealings with humanity. So, if you like you could say it was a blind guess but I would argue that it was a trust, by His grace, in taking Him at His word.

    I'm sure you have taken people at their word before if they seem trustworthy.

    Why would you ever come to believe in God if you did not believe He existed (Hebrews 11:6)? You will find every excuse you can to deny Him.

    Because of my faith and trust in His Son God has shown/confirmed His word is true. You can't make sense of existence without first presupposing Him. I challenge you to try. What do you know for certain about your belief/belief system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I will stick with my acknowledgment that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY...and I am mystified by your thoughts that my acknowledgement is somehow inferior to your blind guesses.

    I certainly am willing to make blind guesses...and will gladly flip a coin on the question of the existence of gods...if you can give me some reasonable evidence that doing so would be superior to my present position.
    So, who will you trust and what becomes your final authority in settling a matter - your limited mind or other limited minds? My contention is that when you reject God you place another authority in His place. With His reveltion and by trying to think His thoughts after Him (discover His intended meaning) there is sense to be made of reality - of what is.

    Try and make sense of your worldview by going to its roots, its core beliefs (those on which everything else is built and hinge).

    I would invite you to test the truthfulness of Scripture by using your reason rather than your bias. You have probably been influenced by many opinions on Scripture. I usually start a defense of the Bible by citing the Olivet Discourse. It is a hub of prophecy that radiates out into both testaments/covenants. If you don't understand it you can woefully misinterpret it. You see, I believe that every NT book was written before A.D. 70 and every NT book points in its prophetic fulfillment to this point in time - the Day of the Lord/end of the age/coming of the Lord in glory. How reasonable is my belief as opposed to yours on the subject?

    Now, I have good reasons for stating these things and if you want to test them I would be glad to sustain your objections. I do not believe, with the evidence we have available to us, that you can reject prophecy without ejecting logic and reason. I invite you to weigh the two positions - yours and mine (in as much as I can represent the biblical position faithfully).

    You see, I believe what Paul did to those in opposition to the teaching of Scripture back in his time still applies today (2 Corinthians 10:3-5). He exposed their faulty thinking via God's word. I can use some of the same principles.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am an agnostic, so obviously I have chosen it as the preferred position to take. My personal agnostic position is:

    B. I. I do not know if gods exist or not;
    What is a god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...
    No reason! That is a frightening position. I see many reasons why gods do not exist but are constructed as false idols. The OT goes into the discussion on what idols can do - absolutely nothing - for they are not real.

    And, supposing such gods did exist, what would be the cause of their existence unless they were eternal?
    Do you believe they all have the same power and is that power almighty/absolute?
    What do you do with the contrary accounts of gods and their powers? Do you believe in the Law of Contradiction that states that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time and in the same manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    ...so I don't.[/I][/B]

    I have no problem with people who do make guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence (about the existence or non-existence of gods, for instance)...but I do see a problem with those people calling their guesses "beliefs"...and then demanding that propriety requires that they be "respected."
    It is the reason to believe that makes the belief stick. Have you tested your agnostic belief to its merits? How can you know anything for certain? It reminds me of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus spoke of building a house on one of two foundations - solid of fleeting (Matthew 7:24-27). Does your worldview have anything solid that you can rest the foundation on, or is it contructed on a foundation that collapses with scrutiny and dissolves in skepticism? Agnosticism, taken to its full extent is nihilism, IMO.

    Peter

  2. #102
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    PGA...let's start with the question of your acceptance of the Bible.

    All I can do with regard to the Bible is to make the best guess that I can about it.

    Here is my guess about that book (JUST A GUESS):

    It appears to me to be the product of a relatively unsophisticated, superstitious Hebrew sect with limited access to knowledge about the scope of the (presently) known universe. It appears to me to be primarily a self-serving history of the early Hebrews...interspersed with a fanciful (and fearful) mythology. The early Hebrews like the early Greeks, Romans and Norsemen...with their limited knowledge...invented gods to answer mysteries that they encountered in simply being alive. The Hebrews were surrounded by perceived enemies with angry, mean-spirited, vengeful, demanding gods...so it makes sense to me that they would invent an angry, mean-spirited, vengeful, demanding god to protect themselves from their enemies' gods...which is what they did.

    It is my guess that the story of that invention...is what we now call "the Bible."

    Why do you think your guess about the Bible makes more sense than that?

    And why do you think that your guess about the Bible is more than a guess?

  3. #103
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Because of my faith and trust in His Son God has shown/confirmed His word is true. You can't make sense of existence without first presupposing Him. I challenge you to try. What do you know for certain about your belief/belief system?
    I'm curious. Here on ODN, God's abilities are commonly referred to as "God can do anything logically possible", but not the impossible. For instance, God can not make a married bachelor or a square circle. Do you agree?

    ---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    So, are you coming from a position of ignorance then?
    As we all are. Since God will not tell us directly what is expected of us, we must rely on much less than perfect communication. This assumes of course, God exists.
    However, whether God exists or not, we are ALL still in a position of ignorance....

    ---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I don't think there is lack of information to reach the right conclusion.
    Obviously we have different standards when it comes to evidence. How do we know yours is superior?

    ---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    That's just the thing. It doesn't make sense, nor can it, nor do you ever witness such a 'process.'
    My point was, if God created us, he did so from non living matter. So no matter how life arose, it came from non living matter.

    ---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    What happens if you have a debt that you can never afford to pay (an infinite amount/wrong)? What happens if there is One who is owed who can make the payment for you (forgive the debt or offense)? Would you accept the payment or would you insist on paying off the debt by your means, forever?
    What if I have committed no such "infinite wrong" whatever that is?

    However, "One" can forgive anything "One" chooses. No questions, asked nor justifications needed.

    But to answer your question anyway. I think:
    "if you are now, or wish to be, a man of honor", you will take care of your debts as best you can. So ya, I am willing to tell God I own my good as well as my bad, and I take responsibility for ALL those actions. It's honorable to be that way when I'm alive. Should there be life after "death" (which "death" would now have NO meaning whatsoever...), it would still be the honorable thing to do. I take this quite seriously. I see no reason anyone but me should be punished for my errors, nor praised for my good deeds.

    ---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    Ah, you plead ignorance on other points but here on #5 you state something that is true, or you are again in blissful ignorance? Which is it? Are you making an absolute, irrefutable statement on what happens?
    You are quite correct here sir. I was in more of a casual conversation than debate mode with that comment I guess.

    I of course retract the statement.

    Though it's very possible I'm correct, I like everyone else, have no idea what death is like.

  4. #104
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Why do you think your guess about the Bible makes more sense than that?
    Your use of the word "guess" seems to imply that believers cannot be certain that God exists. What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God cannot be certain of His existence?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #105
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your use of the word "guess" seems to imply that believers cannot be certain that God exists. What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God cannot be certain of His existence?
    1.God interacts with human's in similar ways in all three major religions. The three major religions are mutually exclusive, so they can not all be right.
    1a. It seems likely if you had been born in Mexico, you would probably be Catholic. Or born in the middle east, you would likely be Muslim.

    2. The Christion God grants a free will decision regarding worship. To make a decision of one's own free will, one HAS to have clear and true information. That we can even argue whether God exists is testimony for non-existence. The Christian God would certainly allow for (if not require that) his existence to be known with absolute certainty. There is absolutely no way to make a honest choice unless you are certain of the choices being made!

    3. There is no agreement in Christianity on the conditions/requirements/whatever you need to do/however you need to live, to attain salvation. Since this is basic to Christianity and to spend eternity with God, and that is one of his main goals in the Bible, there should be no controversy on this point at ALL.
    3a. Requiring faith instead of having clear, indisputable facts, is testimony for non-existence.

    4. The Christian God being three unique individuals and one individual at the same time is like a married bachelor or square circle.

    Aside:
    1.The idea of "life after death" pretty much renders the common use of the word "death" meaningless.

    2. The idea of Jesus dying on the cross for "our sins" means nothing if he doesn't die! No sacrifice was made if he lives on for eternity, powerful as ever.
    2a. How does Jesus "pay for sins" because he was murdered anyway?
    2b. How can someone else "pay" for YOUR sins in the eyes of God?!?!? ONLY you can truly answer for what YOU have done! There is no justification to punish another for your actions!

    3. What is the point of the second coming of Christ to earth if we are going to be living in Heaven for eternity?
    3a. Doesn't the Bible say the dead are dead until the second coming of Christ?

    While I personally would not say all theists are "guessing", it seems incredibly unlikely God chooses people now and then to reveal himself. So these "personal experiences" of God interactions need careful scrutiny. This really makes no sense, as God wants people to "fallow".
    CLEAR communication of some sort would seem a given.
    The supernatural only seems to exist "when nobody else is looking, and you can't really prove it beyond "I saw/experienced" it". Same claims from most religions. So not impossible, but likely no different that other fantastic claims...
    Last edited by Belthazor; January 15th, 2018 at 07:59 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Belthazor, your non-belief is not evidence that I am uncertain of God's existence.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #107
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Belthazor, your non-belief is not evidence that I am uncertain of God's existence.
    I see no reason not to question things....

    ---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Belthazor, your non-belief is not evidence that I am uncertain of God's existence.
    Nor would I ever make such a ridiculous claim!

    ---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Belthazor, your non-belief is not evidence that I am uncertain of God's existence.
    Would you care to rebut any point I made are do you concede to what I said??

  8. #108
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    For clarity, I will slightly rephrase my question to Frank: What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God are not certain of His existence?

    I'm asking because Frank's use of the word "guess" to describe a belief in God is inaccurate and inappropriate. A 2012 Pew Research poll found that 80% of Americans "never doubt" that God exists (page 18 of http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/1...eRise-full.pdf ). Therefore, that 80% are not making a "guess", which by definition means having doubt or uncertainty. So I'm asking Frank to support the claim that believers are "guessing" at the existence of God.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #109
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    For clarity, I will slightly rephrase my question to Frank: What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God are not certain of His existence?

    I'm asking because Frank's use of the word "guess" to describe a belief in God is inaccurate and inappropriate. A 2012 Pew Research poll found that 80% of Americans "never doubt" that God exists (page 18 of http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/1...eRise-full.pdf ). Therefore, that 80% are not making a "guess", which by definition means having doubt or uncertainty. So I'm asking for him to support the claim that believers are "guessing" at the existence of God.
    That is fairly clear I guess, I will take that as a yes
    Have a great night sir,

  10. #110
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your use of the word "guess" seems to imply that believers cannot be certain that God exists. What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God cannot be certain of His existence?
    I have NOT implied that "believers" cannot be certain that gods do not exist. If there is a GOD...then that GOD could certainly communicate with humans if IT so chose.

    Are YOU saying you have had such a communication? Are you saying YOU are CERTAIN some particular GOD exists?

    ---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    For clarity, I will slightly rephrase my question to Frank: What evidence (facts or logic) do you have that those who believe in God are not certain of His existence?

    I'm asking because Frank's use of the word "guess" to describe a belief in God is inaccurate and inappropriate. A 2012 Pew Research poll found that 80% of Americans "never doubt" that God exists (page 18 of http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/1...eRise-full.pdf ). Therefore, that 80% are not making a "guess", which by definition means having doubt or uncertainty. So I'm asking Frank to support the claim that believers are "guessing" at the existence of God.
    Same response I gave above.

  11. #111
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    If there is a GOD...then that GOD could certainly communicate with humans if IT so chose.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Are YOU saying you have had such a communication? Are you saying YOU are CERTAIN some particular GOD exists?
    I have an inner knowing that God exists, which I think is a communication, though you may dismiss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Same response I gave above.
    Okay, then the word "guess" does not apply.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #112
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Agreed.
    Great. I like when agreements are reached in Internet discussions.


    I have an inner knowing that God exists, which I think is a communication, though you may dismiss.
    "You" think (or guess) that it is a communication.

    I do dismiss it, Evensaul, and, frankly, you should also. "I know in my heart"...is code for "I do not know."

    So is "I have an "inner knowing."

    Me...I do not know if gods exist or not. They may...they may not.


    Okay, then the word "guess" does not apply.
    It really does. It is not an attempt at an insult. It is an attempt to deal with the truth.

  13. #113
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    "You" think (or guess) that it is a communication.
    As I said, it is an inner knowing. Not a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I do dismiss it, Evensaul, and, frankly, you should also. "I know in my heart"...is code for "I do not know."

    So is "I have an "inner knowing."
    So your mission here is to put doubt in the minds of believers, and pull them away from God? Not. Gonna. Happen.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #114
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As I said, it is an inner knowing. Not a guess.
    For some...acknowledging that "inner knowing" is code for "I do not know"...is very difficult.

    Okay. We can go with that.

    So your mission here is to put doubt in the minds of believers, and pull them away from God? Not. Gonna. Happen.
    I have no problem with people who guess there are gods (or is a GOD). I was one of those people myself a long while back.

    I find it interesting that you equate "It is not an attempt at an insult. It is an attempt to deal with the truth" with..."a mission to put doubt in the minds" of people who want to block out anything but their guesses about the truth.

    YOU should be putting the doubt there. You should be acknowledging the doubt, because the doubt is there.

  15. #115
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    It isn’t going to work, Frank.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #116
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    "I know in my heart"...is code for "I do not know."
    Hi Frank, welcome to ODN.

    Did you write this sentence?

    If so, how do you know you wrote it?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #117
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It isn’t going to work, Frank.

    Sometimes one cannot get through.

    If you want to insist your guess is correct...fine with me.

    ---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Hi Frank, welcome to ODN.
    Thank you, Squatch.

    Did you write this sentence?
    I did.

    If so, how do you know you wrote it?
    I was here when I wrote it.

  18. #118
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I was here when I wrote it.
    So you are relying on your personal inner knowledge for that belief?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #119
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    So you are relying on your personal inner knowledge for that belief?
    No...I am relying on my knowledge.

    "Inner knowledge" or "I know in my heart"...are ways of saying, "I do not know" for people who do not want to acknowledge that they do not know.

  20. #120
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    No...I am relying on my knowledge.

    "Inner knowledge" or "I know in my heart"...are ways of saying, "I do not know" for people who do not want to acknowledge that they do not know.
    How is saying "I know in my heart" objectively different than saying "I'm relying on my personal knowledge?"

    Alternatively, couldn't I apply your objection to your response with equal validity? Wouldn't it be just as true to say "'relying on personal experience' is just a way of saying "I do not know" for people who do not want to acknowledge that they do not know?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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