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  1. #161
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    NO...it is not...and your link did not work, futureboy.

    And some would refer to them as being strongly atheistic with regard to that specific deity. Sorry.
    Don't be sorry. Anyone can be wrong.

    Dude, you literally just said that you can't have a rational discussion with me because you thought I was trying to re-define strong atheism. So, the actual content of the discussion I was forwarding was irrelevant to you just because you disagreed with my use of the term.
    Dude, I am telling you that if you are going to re-define "strong atheist" there is no way I can discuss this topic with you rationally.

    Not everyone here is going to re-define "strong atheist."

    First of all, your original remark in post # 88 made absolutely no reference to strong atheism.
    No it didn't. It said exactly what I intended to say. I stand by my remarks there.


    Second, my response to you in post # 148 didn't refer to strong atheism in any way either, and specifically brought up issues surrounding beliefs and the nature of beliefs vs. evidence, in general. Your response to that completely ignored the statements I made regarding beliefs vs evidence.
    Bottom line..."strong atheism" is defined as an assertion or belief that no gods exists.

    Deal with that.

    So while I understand that you now say your post # 88 was intended to refer to only strong atheists as commonly defined, my very first response to it had already introduced other topics related to the question of beliefs vs. evidence based on the statements you made referring to atheists in general, and not specifically strong atheists. I get that you wanted to clarify that post # 88 was about strong atheists, but in doing so you have completely ignored any further discussion about the topics introduced afterwards and the questions posed to you.
    Here is what I am saying: If an atheist asserts a "belief" that there are no gods...that "belief" is no more "rationally justified" than a theistic "belief" that a particular god exists.

    Like I said, please re-read my posts. If you want to continue the discussion I raised in my very first response to you, you should at least want to/be able to do that in order to understand what I was talking/asking you about.
    If you disagree with anything I have written here...tell me why you disagree and we can discuss it.

    I'm sorry, Frank, but the way in which you have ignored not only the general direction of the discussion I've been trying to have with you but also specific questions to you, as well as your terse and somewhat dogmatic dismissal of any further considerations of what it means to have strong atheistic positions really makes it seem like you're just out to bicker. Again, not everyone is out to argue with you.
    If you disagree with anything I have written here, futureboy, tell me why you disagree and we can discuss it.

    I suspect it might be better to pick one specific thing...and discuss that until we resolve it...and then move on to something else.

    I would choose the definition of "strong atheist" if I were you.

  2. #162
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    NO...it is not...and your link did not work, futureboy. Don't be sorry. Anyone can be wrong.
    I'm again sorry you're being so stubborn with this, but you said that the term isn't used as I described, and I simply provided you with an example where it is actually used in that way. The link works fine for me, but here is the text:
    Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    No it didn't. It said exactly what I intended to say. I stand by my remarks there.
    Again, in post 88 you refer to atheists in general using the term "atheists". You later clarified (twice) that your post refers only to strong atheists. Now you're saying that you said exactly what you intended to say, meaning your statements in post 88 are about atheists in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Bottom line..."strong atheism" is defined as an assertion or belief that no gods exists. Deal with that.
    I have - I've provided an example explaining the somewhat deeper considerations of the different types of theists with regard to how they reject claims and assert their antithesis. But again, the question about strong atheists is somewhat pointless and this is all really irrelevant to the further discussion I attempted to promote with my very first response to you, which you still seem to be ignoring. As I stated earlier, I think a meaningful discussion could be had by exploring the implications of denying the existence of certain deities such as Zeus, while maintaining that strong atheists who also deny the existence of all the other more main-stream deities are being irrational. Where does one draw the line? At what point does it become acceptable to take a strong atheistic stance and deny the existence of a modern deity just like we've long since done with those such as Zeus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Here is what I am saying: If an atheist asserts a "belief" that there are no gods...that "belief" is no more "rationally justified" than a theistic "belief" that a particular god exists.
    Then it's merely an issue of you not expressing yourself clearly, since post 88 makes no reference whatsoever to strong atheists' belief that there are no gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    If you disagree with anything I have written here...tell me why you disagree and we can discuss it.
    Well, at least you're no longer simply assuming incorrectly that I disagree with anything you've written, and are now asking whether that's the case, so I guess some progress there. Again, I'll simply direct you to and ask that you re-read my previous responses to you where I have clearly expressed the ideas I think are worth considering that have nothing to do with pointless bickering about what strong atheism is.

  3. #163
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    I'm again sorry you're being so stubborn with this, but you said that the term isn't used as I described, and I simply provided you with an example where it is actually used in that way. The link works fine for me, but here is the text:
    Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.
    I tried your link several times...to no avail. The link says something about "Thought.com." I have no idea of what that is and I am not interested in looking it up. But perhaps it is a site that decided to re-define strong atheism.

    Here is a link to Wikipedia that defines it:

    Positive atheism, also called strong atheism and hard atheism, is the form of atheism that additionally asserts that no deities exist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negati...sitive_atheism

    That is the only definition I've ever seen used...but whatever.

    Here is my original post. Let's start there...and let's take it sentence to sentence.


    Hi, Futureboy. New here. Gotta get started somewhere...and this was the first thread to catch my eye.
    I cannot imagine you have any problem with sentence number one.

    I agree with your initial premise..."theistic beliefs" truly are not rationally justified.
    I cannot imagine you have any problem with sentence number two.

    Neither, however, are atheistic "beliefs."
    If you have a problem with that...tell me what it is.

    Some atheists assert that they have no "beliefs"...but some do. The "beliefs" of those atheists are as suspect as the "beliefs" of theists.
    Here is the qualifier for that last sentence. I am stating that some atheists assert they have no beliefs. Obviously my previous statement does not apply to them. That previous statement does apply to "...but some do." And I assert that the "beliefs" of the atheists who have "beliefs" are as suspect as the "beliefs" of theists.

    What in the world can you disagree with on that?



    It seems to me to be important to recognize that in the context of "religion"...most, perhaps all, "beliefs" are not rationally justified. They are just "beliefs"...guesses, of a sort, about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Do you agree?
    Okay...deal with this.

  4. #164
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    Re: Theistic beliefs are not rationally justified

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by this.

    How does one measure the "weight of a claim?"

    I suspect, what you mean (given the rest of your post) is whether the claim runs counter to pre-existing assumptions, facts, or understanding. I would argue that that doesn't make the claim more weighty, it makes the "against" column larger.
    I see no reason evidence can have "weight" but a claim can't have "weight", but I'm not a word arguer, I argue ideas, so I go with your definition here (unless you are going to be "that guy again .......

    Now, a claim of supernatural something (for instance) has a "larger against column". Are we good so far?



    (actually, it sounds like the "against column" is weighing down the claim
    (just trying to keep a bit of humor in my argumentation)

    ---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Underlying this is an implicit definition of "extraordinary" that says they are claims for which we already have disconfirming evidence. Those claims need strong confirming evidence for sure, not because they are extraordinary fundamentally, but because the positive evidence has negative evidence it needs to outweigh.
    Well, I tried to get away from the term "extraordinary".

    However, I don't believe there has been a documented case of the supernatural so that type of claim would need, as you say " strong confirming evidence for sure, not because they are extraordinary fundamentally, but because the positive evidence has negative evidence it needs to outweigh.",
    Do you agree?

    ---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    In all of the examples of claims I think would fall into "extraordinary" in Sagan's mind, I can't think of one where the rational skepticism isn't based on pre-existing understanding or evidence, but on the nature of the claim itself.

    I suppose something like, "I met a married bachelor" today might be one because it is internally contradictory, but I think most of what we are talking about are claims that counter something we feel we already know or understand.

    Does that definition make sense? Am I missing something?
    Could you condense this down a bit please?

    ---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    No, God has confirmed that He is who He says in numerous ways to my mind concerning His Word. Personally, He has also answered prayer and shown me grace and mercy by drawing me to His Spirit. After my father died, I was looking for meaning. I returned to Africa, and I continually had people who believed in God placed in my life - my uncle, my roomie at the place I worked, his friends, other work acquaintances. Then the accident. Then back to Canada. I was skeptical but decided to investigate further. That was over 38 years ago. That is my personal experience that you can doubt, but to me it is real.
    I truly believe you are being sincere and I appreciate your candor.

    The problem here is:
    Let's say I had decided God did exist and I wanted to worship in the manner God has chosen. I narrow my search to Christianity, Judaism, and Muslim. How to decide which is true, since they are mutually exclusive? You have spoken of a personal experience that confirmed your belief. I have actually spoken to Jewish people before, and they often have a similar personal experience that confirms their belief.
    Jews and Muslims were around the time of Christ, and they deny Jesus is God and that he rose from the dead. They have ancient text with prophecy and history as support just as Christians do.
    I realize you believe Christianity's text is stronger. I have read some of the other two religions text as well and submit the are very similar in strength.
    How am I to decide?

 

 
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