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  1. #41
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    Re: Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    As am I.
    So, you are claiming your opinions of the NN are objective?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Not true, there have been many accounts on practically a weekly basis for a year on his ignorance. Iím surprised this is even debatable.
    You may BELIEVE he is ignorant and you may have reasons to believe this, but it is still just a belief and not an objective fact. That you believe your opinions are not biased is hilarious. Am I supposed to rebut that?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Maybe you need to look up what a fact is vs an opinion. If someone doesnít know something he is by definition ignorant of that information. Thatís not subject to debate or opinion. Itís about a shared world of factually reported happenings and tweets.
    IF someone does not know something. You are now an expert on what Trump knows and does not know? You are inside his head? His tweets and actions are all subject to interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Meh. As I pointed out heís an awful man but the country is being protected by our wonderful checks and balances. Heís not going to be able to inflict all the doom and gloom some have been projecting.
    The same checks and balances which protected us from Obama, Bush, Reagan, so on and so forth. Being an awful person does not mean awful president. He could simultaneously be the worst human being ever and the best U.S. president ever. If one were to look at his work objectively. It is clear you cannot or will not. Furthermore, as I have pointed out, you are basing his success through the prism of your own views and opinions. So, he could be a fabulously successful president, but you'd call him a failure because he didn't succeed the way you want him to succeed (see our discussion of NN).
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. #42
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    Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, you are claiming your opinions of the NN are objective?
    I am pointing out factual instances in which NN was invoked so that the FCC could step in to prevent harm to customers. So you either have to say these things never happened, or that customers werenít harmed or that NN wasnít used to highlight or explain the harm or that the regulations werenít strengthened to give the FCC more power to prevent the harm.

    All these things are factually true. They did happen for the reasons stated so thereís little room for actual opinion. So what are you saying is subjective?

    You may BELIEVE he is ignorant and you may have reasons to believe this, but it is still just a belief and not an objective fact. That you believe your opinions are not biased is hilarious. Am I supposed to rebut that?
    Well first of all, it isnít a surprise that a businessman knows nothing of government so I really donít see what bias has to do with anything. I doubt that any president that came in from outside of government would know too much of its inner workings so the charge of ignorance should not be a shock but an expectation. What would be a nice was if he actually boned up or listened to his advisors, which he doesnít do;indeed he often says the opposite of his own government.

    Similar charges were made against Obamaís lack of ďexecutiveĒ experience. This was also true but at least you could see him learn, see him being thoughtful and taking advice of his people.

    IF someone does not know something. You are now an expert on what Trump knows and does not know? You are inside his head? His tweets and actions are all subject to interpretation.
    His tweets are directly from his mind - unfiltered, unverified, and unvetted. Theyíre as close to him talking as is possible. And if his claims are proven to be untrue, or false or misleading or ignorant, then that fact can be objectively determined. I donít see any ďinterpretationĒ is necessary or needed.

    In fact, when these problems are pointed out, the rebuttal from the White House, from Conway to Sanders and in between, arenít to admit the wrong but to point out, as you have, that his supporters donít care; they not only agree but believe his statements over the facts. Conway said it best with her ďalternative factsĒ. The only interpretation of reality being done is by Trump and his enablers and his supporters.

    The same checks and balances which protected us from Obama, Bush, Reagan, so on and so forth. Being an awful person does not mean awful president. He could simultaneously be the worst human being ever and the best U.S. president ever. If one were to look at his work objectively. It is clear you cannot or will not. Furthermore, as I have pointed out, you are basing his success through the prism of your own views and opinions. So, he could be a fabulously successful president, but you'd call him a failure because he didn't succeed the way you want him to succeed (see our discussion of NN).
    This is rubbish. I posted this specifically to say that Trumpís presidency isnít going to be totally bad. His ineffectiveness, lack of executive skill to put the right people in the right job (as evidenced by the lack of knowledge of several of his appointees), the failure of him to cut his signature ďdealsĒ and his constant blaming of underlyings prove that he is not so much a leader but an ignorant tyrant.

    Heís threatened or insulted every institution that provides checks and balances on his powers. Heís tried to fired critics within his own government or otherwise tried to get external critics fired when he has no power to do so. And most laughably, heís too ignorant to do these things when theyíre actually illegal or immoral or anti-constitutional.

    Perhaps you need to stop watching Hannity and other sycophants who explain his flaws away as being irrelevant or unimportant or minor. I think youíre wearing the rose-colored lenses here when you canít distinguish between many documented instances of his failures. If your only argument is that it is ďjust my opinionĒ then you have sorely lost; ad-homening yourself into victory just shows how you have no rebuttals based on facts. Good luck with that!
    Last edited by SharmaK; February 6th, 2018 at 04:06 AM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I am pointing out factual instances in which NN was invoked so that the FCC could step in to prevent harm to customers. So you either have to say these things never happened, or that customers werenít harmed or that NN wasnít used to highlight or explain the harm or that the regulations werenít strengthened to give the FCC more power to prevent the harm.

    All these things are factually true. They did happen for the reasons stated so thereís little room for actual opinion. So what are you saying is subjective?


    Well first of all, it isnít a surprise that a businessman knows nothing of government so I really donít see what bias has to do with anything. I doubt that any president that came in from outside of government would know too much of its inner workings so the charge of ignorance should not be a shock but an expectation. What would be a nice was if he actually boned up or listened to his advisors, which he doesnít do;indeed he often says the opposite of his own government.

    Similar charges were made against Obamaís lack of ďexecutiveĒ experience. This was also true but at least you could see him learn, see him being thoughtful and taking advice of his people.


    His tweets are directly from his mind - unfiltered, unverified, and unvetted. Theyíre as close to him talking as is possible. And if his claims are proven to be untrue, or false or misleading or ignorant, then that fact can be objectively determined. I donít see any ďinterpretationĒ is necessary or needed.

    In fact, when these problems are pointed out, the rebuttal from the White House, from Conway to Sanders and in between, arenít to admit the wrong but to point out, as you have, that his supporters donít care; they not only agree but believe his statements over the facts. Conway said it best with her ďalternative factsĒ. The only interpretation of reality being done is by Trump and his enablers and his supporters.


    This is rubbish. I posted this specifically to say that Trumpís presidency isnít going to be totally bad. His ineffectiveness, lack of executive skill to put the right people in the right job (as evidenced by the lack of knowledge of several of his appointees), the failure of him to cut his signature ďdealsĒ and his constant blaming of underlyings prove that he is not so much a leader but an ignorant tyrant.

    Heís threatened or insulted every institution that provides checks and balances on his powers. Heís tried to fired critics within his own government or otherwise tried to get external critics fired when he has no power to do so. And most laughably, heís too ignorant to do these things when theyíre actually illegal or immoral or anti-constitutional.

    Perhaps you need to stop watching Hannity and other sycophants who explain his flaws away as being irrelevant or unimportant or minor. I think youíre wearing the rose-colored lenses here when you canít distinguish between many documented instances of his failures. If your only argument is that it is ďjust my opinionĒ then you have sorely lost; ad-homening yourself into victory just shows how you have no rebuttals based on facts. Good luck with that!
    I am only continuing this because you amuse the crap out of me and demonstrate how warped the perceptions of progressives tend to be.

    1) First. NN... sheesh. You need to understand my argument before you go onto your rant-like rebuttal. The NN is harmful based on your world view and how you think/believe things ouhgt to be. I am NOT getting into a debate on NN. However, even if I agreed that your example was harmful in that particular instance, it needn't lead to the conclusion that the NN is good. I could believe other solution exist which would work better. Don't ask me for examples, because, again, it is not relevant. The point here is you are biased towards a specific world view. That is fine. However, it is crippling the discussion because you cannot simply admit it.

    2) Your use of the word ignorance is generally considered and if we are being honest with ourselves, your attempt to cast an insult. It is an objective fact that Trump had little experience with government prior to winning office. It is subjective that he has remained ignorant. You've made all sorts of conclusions about what he has or has not done based on Tweets??? Should we all be judged with such flippancy? Is my lack of Tweeting a sign of total ignorance about anything? It is your opinion that he does not listen to his advisers. You certainly aren't in the room with him when he is being briefed, are you?

    3) No one knows what's in his mind when he is Tweeting. Is he saying what he thinks or is he just trolling people? I dunno. As I noted above, I don't have a Twitter account, so I don't read anything anyone Tweets. However, I know enough to know that a Tweet is not the same as reading someone's mind. You do make one correct observation. Usually, whatever is said via Tweet can be objectively determined to be either false or true.

    4) You posted to say his presidency isn't going to be totally bad, but you are basing bad on his ability to accomplish anything. In other words, you believe that the more he does, the more bad he'll do. You offer this backhanded compliment to say that because you believe he is totally incompetent, little will get done. Again, this is a subjective statement based on your belief of his ability and your belief as to what constitutes good government action.

    Realize that through this entire little back and forth, all I've been asking is that you admit your beliefs are subjective. You cannot admit to it. You firmly believe that your world view isn't simply your opinion, but objective truth. And you criticize Trump for trying to act like a tyrant??? Imagine the tyranny you'd attempt to unleash if you were ever to succeed as much as Trump. It'd make me shiver (not in a Chris Mathews way either).

    Finally, you accuse me of being a Hannity sycophant. This is amusing and hilarious. After all, point to a single argument I've made which is based on having a positive view of Trump. I have not defended him on a single issue. For that matter, I have not attacked him either and I guess this is where you get your opinion of me. After all, if I'm not against him, then I must be with him. Am I right? Not getting all frothy at the mouth about how awful he is must mean I am just a Hannity watching sycophant. Well, if that is true and your vitriol for Trump is 10x's greater than my support for him, I wonder, who's knob are you slobbering over?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #44
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    Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am only continuing this because you amuse the crap out of me and demonstrate how warped the perceptions of progressives tend to be.
    Me too. Itís amazing the lengths people go to in order to defend Trump.

    1) First. NN... sheesh. You need to understand my argument before you go onto your rant-like rebuttal. The NN is harmful based on your world view and how you think/believe things ouhgt to be. I am NOT getting into a debate on NN. However, even if I agreed that your example was harmful in that particular instance, it needn't lead to the conclusion that the NN is good. I could believe other solution exist which would work better. Don't ask me for examples, because, again, it is not relevant. The point here is you are biased towards a specific world view. That is fine. However, it is crippling the discussion because you cannot simply admit it.
    So in your opinion NN may be bad. But thatís just opinion. NN is factually the principles that the internet has been running under and whether you like it or not is a irrelevant as is my opinion as to whether it is good or not.

    However, here, youíre confusing factual objective actions (the enforcement of NN) with your own opinion or what you believe is my opinion as to whether NN itself is good or bad. Youíre getting so twisted in your discussion it is little wonder you are losing track of what is being discussed!


    2) Your use of the word ignorance is generally considered and if we are being honest with ourselves, your attempt to cast an insult. It is an objective fact that Trump had little experience with government prior to winning office. It is subjective that he has remained ignorant. You've made all sorts of conclusions about what he has or has not done based on Tweets??? Should we all be judged with such flippancy? Is my lack of Tweeting a sign of total ignorance about anything? It is your opinion that he does not listen to his advisers. You certainly aren't in the room with him when he is being briefed, are you?
    Again, youíre impugning your own opinions of my opinions to confuse the provable (and now, finally admitted) fact of Trumpís ignorance. And indeed you realize this and now youíre moving the goalposts as to whether he REMAINs ignorant. Which is not the point - he was ignorant on matters, got smacked and is now less ignorant than originally. Of course he then goes on to prove his ignorance on other issues. So the charge stands.

    So nice try changing the argument around and bringing other issues that are irrelevant. No one is saying he canít learn here. The point of argument is that heís ignorant.

    Stop trying to move the goal posts and bringing up strawmen. Youíre literally arguing against yourself at some point!


    3) No one knows what's in his mind when he is Tweeting. Is he saying what he thinks or is he just trolling people? I dunno. As I noted above, I don't have a Twitter account, so I don't read anything anyone Tweets. However, I know enough to know that a Tweet is not the same as reading someone's mind. You do make one correct observation. Usually, whatever is said via Tweet can be objectively determined to be either false or true.
    Again, you bring in more fallacies with each step. No one is saying there is mind reading going on! This is a straw man since no one is claiming to know his mind. We know only his words and they are ignorant. And youíre really quibbling about whether heís trolling or not - sowhose mind reading now? What does trolling have to do with anything! Trotting out the ďheís only jokingĒ excuse just happened today so I guess youíre keeping up with your excusing of Trump. Still irrelevant though.

    4) You posted to say his presidency isn't going to be totally bad, but you are basing bad on his ability to accomplish anything. In other words, you believe that the more he does, the more bad he'll do. You offer this backhanded compliment to say that because you believe he is totally incompetent, little will get done. Again, this is a subjective statement based on your belief of his ability and your belief as to what constitutes good government action.

    Realize that through this entire little back and forth, all I've been asking is that you admit your beliefs are subjective. You cannot admit to it. You firmly believe that your world view isn't simply your opinion, but objective truth. And you criticize Trump for trying to act like a tyrant??? Imagine the tyranny you'd attempt to unleash if you were ever to succeed as much as Trump. It'd make me shiver (not in a Chris Mathews way either).
    And that actually is opinion! Which I havenít denied! Youíre getting so confused now, Iím at a loss as to help you how to get things straight. You clearly cannot tell the difference between objective truths (Trumpís ignorance and his proven lack of ability to get things done and take responsibility for his mistakes, all qualities of a poor leader) with opinions (heís a tyrant). Sigh! Colored me not surprised.

    You are so invested in your narrative to make everything I say an opinion that youíre even pointing it out when it is clearly obvious itís an opinion and there would be no dispute in you saying so. When one is so blatantly blindly on an automatic attack mode, as you are here, there is very little else to discuss. As hilarious as you are in these posts all youíre doing at this point is arguing with yourself and my future posts will have to point out all you flaws all the way through. I suggest you desist and take the loss!


    Finally, you accuse me of being a Hannity sycophant. This is amusing and hilarious. After all, point to a single argument I've made which is based on having a positive view of Trump. I have not defended him on a single issue. For that matter, I have not attacked him either and I guess this is where you get your opinion of me. After all, if I'm not against him, then I must be with him. Am I right? Not getting all frothy at the mouth about how awful he is must mean I am just a Hannity watching sycophant. Well, if that is true and your vitriol for Trump is 10x's greater than my support for him, I wonder, who's knob are you slobbering over?
    Not sure where I called you a sycophant of Hannity. I clearly said ďHannity and other sycophantsĒ and in the context of supporting Trump. That is, i was accusing you of following sycophants of Trump.

    Again, itís not a surprise that your lack of attention to detail as you painfully try to extricate yourself from your origins bad arguments by going on an all out attack on the everything. I guess itís just practice for you but all your mistakes and distractions and poor understand and confusions shows that youíre following the path here.

    On the point of not being a Trump supporter, you donít have to say anything positive in your support. All your excuses are straight from the Hannity playbook. Your world of alternate facts is so twisted that actual facts are now a matter of opinion and anyone criticizing Trump must be guilty of being partisan, even when they state something objectively true!

    Itís like in the old Obama days when he says the sky is blue then the Rís would say itís orange. Your interpretation of facts is very similar. I canít say Iím shocked.

    Donít get too confused in your next post and keep track of your original positions and try and actually read my side properly so you donít end up arguing against yourself. Good luck!
    Last edited by SharmaK; February 7th, 2018 at 04:18 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Weíre only a year into probably one of the worst presidencies in history: a misogynistic, racist, largely ignorant buffoon that spends more time watching Fox News than boning up for his job. Heís a true product of what the Tea Party grass roots really craved.

    That said, the economy is up and other than embarrassing the country constantly he hasnít quite started a war yet. His insurance policy in the form of Pence still holds - an incompetent President prevented from doing anything is better than a competent one. The Russia probe is as much blackmail from the internal institutions of politics/spies/media as it is a actual Russian plot; and that keeps him in check: the real target probably isnít collusion, itís likely money laundering.

    Despite all the terrible things heís said, he really hasnít done anything terrible. His EOs are just as reversible when the democrats get back in power and any damage to the other departments also easily fixable when the time comes.

    So is his presidency really going to be bad? It may be mostly ineffective and humiliating but is there anything permanent or irreversible that heís doing? Personally, I havenít heard people discuss politics as much as when Trump is being challenged. His ignorance is corrected publicly and everyone is learning in real-time his government works, why the policies and programs we have in place are good (eg net neutrality) and we all get to argue again, all learning at the same time.

    So what do people think?


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    The ignorance is what frightens me about our current president. The fact that he has had no political experience makes me more than a little nervous. He is managing to alienate us from our allies, and America is basically the laughing stock of the world. He has cut out major chunks of funding to environmental agencies regarding anything having to do with climate change. His attitude towards all Muslims is shameful, and what is scary about that fact is that many Americans are excusing the behavior. I am proud to be from a state that did not vote for him.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

  6. #46
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    Re: Is the Trump presidency that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    The ignorance is what frightens me about our current president. The fact that he has had no political experience makes me more than a little nervous. He is managing to alienate us from our allies, and America is basically the laughing stock of the world. He has cut out major chunks of funding to environmental agencies regarding anything having to do with climate change. His attitude towards all Muslims is shameful, and what is scary about that fact is that many Americans are excusing the behavior. I am proud to be from a state that did not vote for him.

    Me, too, LadyK.

    Like you, his ignorance frightens me. His unwillingness to learn...to lessen his ignorance...frightens me even more.

    IS THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY THAT BAD?

    It's worse!

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