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  1. #41
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I have spoken only to the part dealing with abortion. You are, inappropriately, extrapolating the part about "any other thing."

    If you have some other things in mind...start a thread on them and I will participate, if I consider it to be of interest.
    But have I mischaracterized your position? If a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with regards to pregnancy, why wouldn't that extend to anything else she wishes to do with her own body?

  2. #42
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    But have I mischaracterized your position? If a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with regards to pregnancy, why wouldn't that extend to anything else she wishes to do with her own body?
    You are most assuredly mischaracterizing MY position if you do that extension.

    I have limited my responses to what a woman with a pregnancy occurring in her own body should be able to do with regard to continuing or terminating that pregnancy.

    Not sure what you are up to here, Dionysus...but I'll meet you half way.

    A woman (or man, for that matter) should be able to remove or shape hair, get a tattoo, have long fingernails or short, get a nose job, make boobs bigger or smaller, wear glasses or contacts...without interference by government or one of us.

    Now...if you want to ask me about a particular not mention here (there are tons)...just ask about it...rather than that general thingy.

    Here: Should a woman be able to____________if she chooses to?

    Fill in that blank with anything...and I will give my opinion.

  3. #43
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Not sure what you are up to here, Dionysus.
    I'm not "up to" anything.

    In post #35 you said "Please question me further if I have not been clear...or, even if I have been clear, if you want something further identified", and in post #38 you said "No...I think there is plenty [of debate] to be had...".

    I take these things to mean that you have actual reasons for holding the position that you do; that your position based on more than your gut feeling about the subject. But as far as I can tell, you've never clearly expressed those reasons in this thread. All you've said is that the woman should get to choose what to do with her own body. You haven't said why she should get to choose what do with her own body. What principle are you applying here? Individual autonomy? Free agency? Freedom of choice? Freedom for a person to do what they will with their own bodies? Do these principles apply only to woman? Do they only apply to pregnant women? Do these principles apply elsewhere? Why or why not? Why should any reader value these principles?

    Precision is important if you're trying to engage in thoughtful discourse. Your question above suggested to me that you're looking to engage in thoughtful discourse. I am therefore trying to probe the subject to stimulate such discourse.

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  5. #44
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    RvW isn't so much about supporting abortions but making sure that when abortions had to be done that they were done ethically and safely.
    This is just false. The RvW ruling restricts abortion in the third trimester, because at the time of the ruling that was a general point of viability for the unborn child. The Court set a point at which the unborn child had rights superseding those of the mother. And very few abortions "had to be done" then (or now). Women choose to kill their unborn babies for a variety of reasons (mostly because they feel unready for motherhood, have economic concerns, or because they don't want more children) and only a small percentage are medically necessary.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #45
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I'm not "up to" anything.

    In post #35 you said "Please question me further if I have not been clear...or, even if I have been clear, if you want something further identified", and in post #38 you said "No...I think there is plenty [of debate] to be had...".

    I take these things to mean that you have actual reasons for holding the position that you do; that your position based on more than your gut feeling about the subject. But as far as I can tell, you've never clearly expressed those reasons in this thread. All you've said is that the woman should get to choose what to do with her own body. You haven't said why she should get to choose what do with her own body. What principle are you applying here? Individual autonomy? Free agency? Freedom of choice? Freedom for a person to do what they will with their own bodies? Do these principles apply only to woman? Do they only apply to pregnant women? Do these principles apply elsewhere? Why or why not? Why should any reader value these principles?

    Precision is important if you're trying to engage in thoughtful discourse. Your question above suggested to me that you're looking to engage in thoughtful discourse. I am therefore trying to probe the subject to stimulate such discourse.
    And I thought I have been very clear about that.

    I'll repeat my position:

    If a pregnant woman decides to terminate (FOR WHATEVER REASON) her pregnancy...she should be able to do it without interference from anyone.

    She should have that right to have dominion over her body in that instance.

    It certainly is a right I would want to have if I were a woman...and I were pregnant. And considerations of what I would want for myself...what I consider fair for myself...come into these decisions for me...sort of an extension of "...do unto others what you would have them do unto you"...or more particularly, "...do not do unto others what you would not have done unto you"...so to speak.

    Now perhaps that IS just a gut feeling...and if you must consider it to be that...that is fine with me.

    If you think that I ought to have further reason, such as "individual autonomy, free agency, freedom of choice, or freedom for a person to do what they will with their own bodies...I think you are over-reaching.

    Whatever has gone on in my life to lead me to this position...and other complex positions...are the things that have gone on.

    Under any circumstances, to move from what I have given you to the generalization, "a person should be able to do whatever they want to with their own bodies"...is unwarranted and inappropriate.

    If you have something in mind...just fill out that blank in my last post...and we can discuss the particular.

  7. #46
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    And I thought I have been very clear about that.
    Well, no. That's exactly why I asked the questions I asked (and which you invited me to do).

    By reading your reasons above, I can only see THAT you hold that women should have the right to have an abortion, but I don't see you expressing WHY they should have that right. I am only asking questions to examine those reasons, because without them, all we're left with is "Women should have the right to have abortions because Frank Apisa thinks they should". I was under the impression that you were wanting to explore the topic in depth. Have I misunderstood your intention?

  8. #47
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, no. That's exactly why I asked the questions I asked (and which you invited me to do).

    By reading your reasons above, I can only see THAT you hold that women should have the right to have an abortion, but I don't see you expressing WHY they should have that right. I am only asking questions to examine those reasons, because without them, all we're left with is "Women should have the right to have abortions because Frank Apisa thinks they should". I was under the impression that you were wanting to explore the topic in depth. Have I misunderstood your intention?
    Yes, you have.

    As I said in my introductory remarks..."As I see it..." Essentially I am expressing an opinion.

    As I mentioned to Mican, "I also see no reason for you (OR ANYONE ELSE) to "accept" my position. It simply is "my position" and I am articulating it here...and I will champion it whenever legislation is proposed to limit a woman's ability to choose to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body."

    If you are looking for me to do an on-line introspection to determine what got me to the point where I am on the issue...stop looking. It is not going to happen.

    This MAY be germane: I see almost all opposition to a woman being able to decide to terminate a pregnancy...coming as a result of RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS.

    For the most part, I think those considerations suck. I would fight to defend an individual's right to those considerations and to act on them...but I think they suck.

    Perhaps a part of my vehemence on the issue comes from my considerations of those considerations.

  9. #48
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    I donít think Iím confused - you appear to have missed a retort for contraceptions in general. So is this an honest mistake or are you avoiding the topic altogether for some reason?
    I'm not opposed to contraception.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Do you agree that contraceptions are an effective way to prevent unwanted pregnancies? Do you further agree that we need to educate our children on matters of human sexuality, in particular safe sex practices as well as contraception?
    Yes to all. No problem with any of that. Do you have a problem with also teaching abstinence as the only 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy? If so, why?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    It is understood that there are pregnancies that exist that are unviable for the baby but cause harm to the woman OR could be viable but also cause harm to the woman OR could be viable but would lead to a highly distressed and painful life for the child OR could be viable but would lead to a hard life for the child and the family. In all these cases, an abortion for early detection has been a preferable choice when taking into account the health of the mother and the quality of life for the family. Do you disagree with that assessment?
    The percentage of pregnancies that might cause medical harm to the mother is very low, probably below 1%. I'm not opposed to abortion when the mother's life is in actual danger. The other 99% are abortions for convenience. Those I have a problem with. If a mother killed her newborn, she'd be arrested, because we value the life of infants. There is very little difference between a baby in the womb at 24 weeks and a newborn baby. Why should we value them differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Itís your primary reason for your position though, is it not?
    If I'm not bringing my religious views into the discussion, then they are not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Killing another human deliberately has never been a black and white issue - we do so in many justified cases. In war, when others attack; in punishment, when it fits the crime; and in all societies, euthanasia before birth or at an old age or due to health issues has been a valid choice to avoid suffering or to save anotherís life.
    Sure there are sometimes gray areas, but they are the exceptions. Every country has laws against killing of innocent human children, which the unborn most certainly are.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #49
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Yes, you have.

    As I said in my introductory remarks..."As I see it..." Essentially I am expressing an opinion.
    Well, fair enough. My sense was that you started this thread to have a discussion to stimulate deeper thinking on the matter and to, perhaps, persuade people who hold the opposite opinion; to encourage people think beyond their own preconceptions. I now understand that this is not the case.

    Thank you for taking the time to clarify this.

  11. #50
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    As I said in my introductory remarks..."As I see it..." Essentially I am expressing an opinion.

    As I mentioned to Mican, "I also see no reason for you (OR ANYONE ELSE) to "accept" my position. It simply is "my position" and I am articulating it here...and I will champion it whenever legislation is proposed to limit a woman's ability to choose to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body."
    ODN is not a bulletin board for you to pontificate, Frank. It is a debate site.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #51
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, fair enough. My sense was that you started this thread to have a discussion to stimulate deeper thinking on the matter and to, perhaps, persuade people who hold the opposite opinion; to encourage people think beyond their own preconceptions. I now understand that this is not the case.

    Thank you for taking the time to clarify this.
    Actually, I started this because of a discussion I was having that seemed to be veering off course in another thread...one of yours.

    I've been engaged in Internet discussions for 20 years now in almost a dozen different fora. As I see it, there are no "deeper thinking" discussions of abortion in them. There are people who are determined to call everything after inception a living human being...and are therefore not to be "killed." There are others, myself being one, who feels a pregnant woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she chooses.

    If you were to take the religious arguments out of the equation...there would be almost no opposition to allowing a woman to do this...but it is my experience that many (perhaps, most) religious objectors recognize the deficiencies of the religious arguments...and are pretending to argue against abortion from other angles.

    As for "... persuade people who hold the opposite opinion; to encourage people think beyond their own preconceptions. I now understand that this is not the case"...I'll try not to think of that as an insult. You should have known my motives, because they came into being in your thread...prompted by your comments to me.

    My purpose is as I stated it in the OP.

    In any case, nearly as I can tell...on this issue, no one thinks beyond their own preconceptions. In fact, many refuse even to see their preconceptions to be preconceptions. At best, we can offer our opinions...and listen, as respectfully as possible, to the opinions of others.

    ---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    ODN is not a bulletin board for you to pontificate, Frank. It is a debate site.
    I am not pontificating...and there is nothing I have posted that should lead anyone with any intelligence to think that I am.

    I also am not pretending to be arguing from a position other than my true position...which I think you may be doing in your post up above.

  13. #52
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'm not opposed to contraception.
    Then weíre in agreement here.

    [Quote] Yes to all. No problem with any of that. Do you have a problem with also teaching abstinence as the only 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy? If so, why?
    [Quote]
    We agree again! I agree that abstinence should be taught alongside sex education though. I donít think abstinence only teaching has been very effective in the real world. And indeed those teenagers from tightly run religious communities are in more risk of doing dangerous things and getting pregnant anyway.



    The percentage of pregnancies that might cause medical harm to the mother is very low, probably below 1%. I'm not opposed to abortion when the mother's life is in actual danger.
    I think weíre in general agreement so far. This is good!


    The other 99% are abortions for convenience. Those I have a problem with. If a mother killed her newborn, she'd be arrested, because we value the life of infants. There is very little difference between a baby in the womb at 24 weeks and a newborn baby. Why should we value them differently?
    But even here, we can finely distinguish between situations from A:the baby being so severely disabled so as to not live for long anyway, B:to babies that are disabled but will be a huge burden on their families and society, C:to mental issues such as Downs, D:to simply not being able to afford the child, E:or it could be a child out of wedlock or F:some embarrassing situation, G: or it could be because they are girls.

    Iíve ordered the list in terms of ďconvenienceĒ to use your metric and Iíd draw the line at around C.

    On your second point as to when, it depends on the situation. Most women know within a month or two that they are pregnant and perhaps it may be just for convenience, but I donít see a massive moral issue dumping it if youíre not ready for a baby. Downs is detected early too but we donít know the severity and most people lean towards the worst case scenarios.

    So perhaps, using your own 24-week metric, if it can be done within that period then anything goes?


    If I'm not bringing my religious views into the discussion, then they are not relevant.
    I actually appreciate that.

    Sure there are sometimes gray areas, but they are the exceptions. Every country has laws against killing of innocent human children, which the unborn most certainly are.
    I donít disagree with that. It is definitely a life that is being extinguished but Life isnít fair either. That same baby killed via the murder of the mother would actually be a double murder so the law already recognizes that this life is sacred in some way.

    Yet, the same legal system allows a mother to kill that same baby. And it is a quandary. To answer this, I go back to my earlier point that doing it legally and safely at least is the lesser of the two evils; the other evil being coat hangers in some dirty alley.

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  15. #53
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am not pontificating...and there is nothing I have posted that should lead anyone with any intelligence to think that I am.
    You're not trying to persuade others, and are not asking questions to better understand the positions of others. Instead you're stating your dogmatic opinion loudly and obnoxiously in bold, caps, blue and large fonts. That all fits the definition of "pontificate" pretty damn well.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #54
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Actually, I started this because of a discussion I was having that seemed to be veering off course in another thread...one of yours.
    Yes, I recall that. I also recall making the distinction between the problem in that thread and how the question here is different from that one, as it was not apparent from the OP what question was being addressed in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I've been engaged in Internet discussions for 20 years now in almost a dozen different fora. As I see it, there are no "deeper thinking" discussions of abortion in them. There are people who are determined to call everything after inception a living human being...and are therefore not to be "killed." There are others, myself being one, who feels a pregnant woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she chooses.

    If you were to take the religious arguments out of the equation...there would be almost no opposition to allowing a woman to do this...but it is my experience that many (perhaps, most) religious objectors recognize the deficiencies of the religious arguments...and are pretending to argue against abortion from other angles.
    Well, I find this to be a strange objection given that you invited someone - anyone - to offer something different than what you've heard before (and to "dispose of them", but I'm happy to leave that presupposition to the side, in the spirit of charity).

    My questions were meant to stimulate exactly that, but because I have no idea why you hold the position you do, it is difficult to appeal to any of the values or principles that motivate that position.

    I'll give you an example of a principle that motivates my position: Free agency and autonomy

    In a truly free society, any able-minded person should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, whether it be tattoos, plastic surgery, abortions, suicide, etc, provided that the things they choose to do neither inflicts nor imposes any harm on any other person. Neither the government nor any other agent has the right to impose their will on a person's free agency and autonomy with regards to their own bodies.

    In general, would this principle be something you could also endorse? Why or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    As for "... persuade people who hold the opposite opinion; to encourage people think beyond their own preconceptions. I now understand that this is not the case"...I'll try not to think of that as an insult.
    Please do. I don't mean it as an insult. I can only infer what your motivations are by what you actually say, and what you said in the other thread bore no more content regarding your reasons for holding your position than this one does.

  17. #55
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're not trying to persuade others, and are not asking questions to better understand the positions of others. Instead you're stating your dogmatic opinion loudly and obnoxiously in bold, caps, blue and large fonts. That all fits the definition of "pontificate" pretty damn well.
    If you do not like the way I am presenting my arguments...you are welcome to avoid reading them.

    I am attempting to be reasonable and courteous.

    I am not willing to have YOU use terms like "pontificate" toward me.

    A part of my arguments is the presentation of opinions. I see others doing it. YOU are doing it in your last two posts to me.

    Now...if you want to report me for not participating the way I should...do it. If I am sent on my way...so be it. This is not a huge board...and I participate elsewhere while participating here.

    Are we good? Or are you going to continue the nonsense?

  18. #56
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    But even here, we can finely distinguish between situations from A:the baby being so severely disabled so as to not live for long anyway, B:to babies that are disabled but will be a huge burden on their families and society, C:to mental issues such as Downs, D:to simply not being able to afford the child, E:or it could be a child out of wedlock or F:some embarrassing situation, G: or it could be because they are girls.

    I’ve ordered the list in terms of “convenience” to use your metric and I’d draw the line at around C.
    Why is the above necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    On your second point as to when, it depends on the situation. Most women know within a month or two that they are pregnant and perhaps it may be just for convenience, but I don’t see a massive moral issue dumping it if you’re not ready for a baby. Downs is detected early too but we don’t know the severity and most people lean towards the worst case scenarios.

    So perhaps, using your own 24-week metric, if it can be done within that period then anything goes?
    And why does it matter whether the unborn baby is fully formed (at 24 weeks)? If you don't see a massive moral issue at two months, why should there be one at eight months? You seem to have no qualms about killing an unborn child at any point in maturity, with or without physical or mental abnormalities, right? So why discuss those details?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Yet, the same legal system allows a mother to kill that same baby. And it is a quandary. To answer this, I go back to my earlier point that doing it legally and safely at least is the lesser of the two evils; the other evil being coat hangers in some dirty alley.
    So, you are admitting here that abortion is an evil. Interesting. Is that why you feel compelled to discuss and justify the reasons for abortion?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #57
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Yes, I recall that. I also recall making the distinction between the problem in that thread and how the question here is different from that one, as it was not apparent from the OP what question was being addressed in this thread.

    Well, I find this to be a strange objection given that you invited someone - anyone - to offer something different than what you've heard before (and to "dispose of them", but I'm happy to leave that presupposition to the side, in the spirit of charity).

    My questions were meant to stimulate exactly that, but because I have no idea why you hold the position you do, it is difficult to appeal to any of the values or principles that motivate that position.

    I'll give you an example of a principle that motivates my position: Free agency and autonomy

    In a truly free society, any able-minded person should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, whether it be tattoos, plastic surgery, abortions, suicide, etc, provided that the things they choose to do neither inflicts nor imposes any harm on any other person. Neither the government nor any other agent has the right to impose their will on a person's free agency and autonomy with regards to their own bodies.

    In general, would this principle be something you could also endorse? Why or why not?
    With reservations, I can endorse your "in a truly free society" notion. My reservations deal with matters unrelated to the abortion matter. I am of the opinion that a "truly free society" requires that the people living in it agree to give up LOTS of their right to freedom, in order for the society to function reasonably.

    Anyway...as nearly as I can tell, the only strong arguments against the right of a woman to have an abortion (even one just for convenience sake) have to do with religious considerations.

    I object to that. The details of my objections are many...and are too much for me to outline for you here. I have noted that the religious objectors, in my estimation, realize the deficiencies of religious arguments...and have hidden that motivation.

    A part of my motivation deals with divorcing society and civilization from religious motivations.

    Please do. I don't mean it as an insult. I can only infer what your motivations are by what you actually say, and what you said in the other thread bore no more content regarding your reasons for holding your position than this one does.
    Respectfully as possible...I think it was meant as a thinly veiled insult.

    My motivation for thinking a woman should have the rights I've mentioned...DO INDEED stem from my feelings that if I were a woman, I would want that freedom to end a pregnancy if I chose. You saw that commentary earlier. Go over it again. It makes the case I want to make in this regard.

  20. #58
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    This is not a huge board...and I participate elsewhere while participating here.
    Because the size of audience is important to someone who only wants to be heard.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  22. #59
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Because the size of audience is important to someone who only wants to be heard.
    If you have something to say on topic...I will be happy to discuss it with you. If you are unsettled because I am on the opposite side of an issue and you are trying to make me be "the bad guy" because of it, you are wasting your time.

    I want to be heard...and I want to hear what others have to say...even from bad-attitude people like you.

  23. #60
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    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    With reservations, I can endorse your "in a truly free society" notion. My reservations deal with matters unrelated to the abortion matter. I am of the opinion that a "truly free society" requires that the people living in it agree to give up LOTS of their right to freedom, in order for the society to function reasonably.

    Anyway...as nearly as I can tell, the only strong arguments against the right of a woman to have an abortion (even one just for convenience sake) have to do with religious considerations.
    Well, for what it's worth, I agree that society often gives far too much deference to religious considerations (click here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Respectfully as possible...I think it was meant as a thinly veiled insult.
    Well, I can't help how you interpret my motivations. At the point at which I made the observation, you'd made it clear that you're simply expressing an opinion, and you have no intention of being persuaded from it, or of persuading anyone towards it; you seemed quite adamant that your views are your views, and you don't give a damn what anyone has to say on the matter. If that is not the case, then I can only say that it isn't apparent from your responses to my questions.

    A friend once told me that it's impossible to give offense. One can only take offense. That might be appropriate here.

 

 
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