Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 233
  1. #81
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Manchester, NH
    Posts
    80
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    To ask people for their stance on an issue without delving into their reasons or their stance is unreasonable and not a very good debate at all. When you enter into a debate, there should be certain indisputable facts upon which to build.

    You assert that a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy and site that it is her body. Many people believe that the "clump of twenty cells" is a human life, and to allow the termination would be murder. In essence, you are asking them if a woman should be allowed to commit murder because the life form resides in her body.

    Here is an interesting question for you: Does this mean that a surrogate mother who is carrying a pregnancy to term for a couple has the right to terminate said pregnancy? It is her body, after all.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

  2. #82
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Now you're just arguing semantics, which is unproductive.
    It is NOT unproductive if you keep calling it a baby.

    It is not. It is a zygote or a fetus.



    Because it is convenient? Seems to me that is why the government picks the moment of birth. After birth, you can identify gender, take footprints and wrap ID tags on the wrist, charge money for a birth certificate, start tracking data by date of birth and all that. Is there some other reason I'm missing?
    Just the common sense factor.

    During the pregnancy...a zygote is a zygore...and a fetus is a fetus.

    Because a human is a human is a human, regardless of the stage of development. That's just science, Frank. You do believe in science, right?
    I do not do "believing."

    A fetus is not a baby...it is a fetus. That is why scientists call it a fetus.

    Going back to your claim of empathy. I don't see it. What I see is selfishness. If you were a pregnant woman, you wouldn't want anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. It has nothing to do with other women. It's all about you. Right?
    Yeah...it is about me making a decision about my own body.

    What problem do you have with that.

    AND THE RELIGION QUESTION...why do you keep avoiding it?

  3. #83
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    How do you know the zygote is not a person?
    How do you know that it is? It appears that your position is that because it comes from a human, it is a human being.

  4. #84
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Just the common sense factor.
    It's convenient. And here that just equates to lazy, Frank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Yeah...it is about me making a decision about my own body.
    Right. So save the bullsh1t empathy line. Nobody's buying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    AND THE RELIGION QUESTION...why do you keep avoiding it?
    Because it isn't relevant, Frank. If I brought in religious lines of thoughts you'd dismiss them. And that is what you really want, so that you don't have to keep up the mantra of "a potential person is not a person" and "a zygote is a zygote" that nobody is buying either.

    Hey, I found what you really think of this site and others like it, where you wrote on another site:

    "The Internet forum...IS PREDOMINATELY ABOUT SHARING OPINIONS. If you think the forum was set up so that you ask and others answer...that is just one more mistake you are making." Tell us again that you're not here pontificating. LOL.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #85
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Why is the above necessary?
    Because life isn’t free and it takes serious commitment for those parents that have to raise a seriously disabled child. If a choice can be made to kill it at birth and before it becomes more than a bunch of little cells then parents should be allowed that choice since it’s their lives at stake.

    And why does it matter whether the unborn baby is fully formed (at 24 weeks)? If you don't see a massive moral issue at two months, why should there be one at eight months? You seem to have no qualms about killing an unborn child at any point in maturity, with or without physical or mental abnormalities, right? So why discuss those details?
    Of course it makes a difference - the more features it has as a human, the more squeamish it is. I certainly have issues for late term abortions and haven’t really explored the line that I’d draw but the first trimester seems a reasonable limit.


    So, you are admitting here that abortion is an evil. Interesting. Is that why you feel compelled to discuss and justify the reasons for abortion?
    I never said it wasn’t evil. It’s most certainly removing a living entity from the universe. However, it is still justified as a mercy killing if the baby is not viable anyway, and also if the parents would resent or otherwise end up abusing the child. It’s their own lives too and the woman’s body as well. They should have the right to decide.

    Abortion is one of those important social rights that we have. It was hard fought for with lives of women and we still see women being murderer by the doctors who refuse to abort even the most unviable of babies. So it’s not always a clear cut evil and neither is it necessarily a good thing either: it’s just less evil than what the child would have to put up with.

    What compels me to argue it is mainly because it is pretty much a religious issue; it’s motivated by religion and fueled by religion. I know we agree on many points already so I know you’re not a zealot. But for me, the presence of religion in matters sexual are far behind where we need to be.

  6. #86
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It's convenient. And here that just equates to lazy, Frank.
    You asked if there was anything you were missing. I answered. "The common sense" factor. You were missing it. I was just trying to answer your question and give you a bit of help.

    Right. So save the bullsh1t empathy line. Nobody's buying it.
    Ahhh, you speak for everyone.

    Well, you don't speak for me...and I have empathy for the real human involved.


    Because it isn't relevant, Frank. If I brought in religious lines of thoughts you'd dismiss them. And that is what you really want, so that you don't have to keep up the mantra of "a potential person is not a person" and "a zygote is a zygote" that nobody is buying either.
    It is relevant...which is why you want to pretend it isn't.

    And, just as an oak tree is an oak tree and a cement mixer is a cement mixer...a zygote is a zygote and a fetus is a fetus.

    You gotta come to grips with that...unless your religion forbids it.


    Hey, I found what you really think of this site and others like it, where you wrote on another site:

    "The Internet forum...IS PREDOMINATELY ABOUT SHARING OPINIONS. If you think the forum was set up so that you ask and others answer...that is just one more mistake you are making." Tell us again that you're not here pontificating. LOL.
    Okay...I'm easy to get along with.

    I AM NOT PONTIFICATING.

    Oh, one more thing. The Internet forum IS PREDOMINANTLY ABOUT SHARING OPINIONS.

    You have a problem with that?

  7. #87
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    You believe the woman should choose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    In discussions of this sort, I do not do "believing." If you are saying "It is your opinion that..."...please use that.
    I'm saying the unborn is a human being by nature and it is a fact and I believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2
    I believe that it is not a question about a woman's right to do with her body as she desires but the killing of another human being. It is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Okay...that is "what you believe"...which is to say, "that is your opinion."

    We have differing opinions.
    Everything you say comes about by belief. One belief is built upon another to form a comprehensive worldview. The question is whether that belief is true to what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    We can go through all the usual abortion debate nonsense about whether a human zygote or human fetus is a "human being" or not (the subject of that other thread about terms)...but that never goes anywhere.
    Whether or not an unborn is a human being or not is what the whole issue of abortion hangs on. If it is not human then it makes no difference what you do with it; if it is a human being, then you are devaluing its life. If you devalue one group of human beings then what is to stop you from devaluing other groups. This devaluing is what Hilter did. It is what slavery did. It is what apartheid did. It is what the Caste System does. It is what a dictator does to get his way in exterminating huge chunks of undesirables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    WHATEVER the fetus or zygote is...IT IS WHAT IT IS.
    That is a tautology. It says nothing.

    Tautology - a phrase or expression in which the same thing is said twice in different words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am saying it is my opinion that WHATEVER IT IS...it definitely IS A PREGNANCY.
    ....And pregnancy is about two human beings - the mother and unborn human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    There is no getting away from that.

    IT IS A PREGNANCY!
    So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    And I am saying that the person who's body is host to the the embryo, zygote, or fetus (the person who is pregnant)...should be the one who makes the "decision" about whether to end the pregnancy if she wants.
    What you are saying is that a person can choose to murder another human being and receive no repercussions for such violence.

    Remember, there are two human beings involved, not one. If you disagree give factual and scientific evidence to support your position. I have already provided many quotes from medical, biological, scientific texts that state that the unborn is a human being. Now it become a question of authority since you continue to say that it is not ha human being and have not supported your OPINION/BELIEF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    If a woman is pregnant and wants to terminate that pregnancy...she should be totally free to do so without interference from you or the government.
    Let me show the flaw of this kind of argumentation.

    1) There is not just one human being in the equation. There are two. What she is doing is harming another life in her selfish desire. She has the right to do whatever she wants with her body within limits, but not the right to do whatever she wants with another human beings body.
    2) One Pro-life site (I included the address in my last post to Dionysus - http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/30/...ter-arguments/) gave the example of smoking. You have a right to harm your body by smoking, but you do not have the right to harm someone else via second-hand smoke. That is why smoking is banned in public in my country - Canada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    You, nor the government, should be allowed to frame the pregnancy in a way in which YOU get to determine what the woman can do with regard to a pregnancy occurring in her own body.

    Deal with that.
    It is a question of human rights. Do all humans have the right to life? If you say no, you put yourself in the same camp as all those who exploit others by devaluing their human worth.

    To counter the last statement, you first have to prove that the unborn is not a human being. You can't do this with reason and logic. I can list text after text that describes the unborn as a human being. Medical texts, biology texts, scientific texts, all recognize the unborn as a human being. You go against a wealth of scientific understanding.

    The whole issue revolves around what the unborn being is. Many governments can legislate human beings out of existence like Hitler did, as Kim Jong-Un does, as Communism has done. They can't do this without first devaluing the intrinsic worth of a human being. Are you willing to go there?
    If you are, you have a worldview that is inconsistent for the very reason that as soon as you get put in the position of devalued, you scream for justice. You recognize the inconsistency in devaluing human beings when it gets personal.

    Peter

    ---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    To ask people for their stance on an issue without delving into their reasons or their stance is unreasonable and not a very good debate at all. When you enter into a debate, there should be certain indisputable facts upon which to build.

    You assert that a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy and site that it is her body. Many people believe that the "clump of twenty cells" is a human life, and to allow the termination would be murder. In essence, you are asking them if a woman should be allowed to commit murder because the life form resides in her body.

    Here is an interesting question for you: Does this mean that a surrogate mother who is carrying a pregnancy to term for a couple has the right to terminate said pregnancy? It is her body, after all.
    I know it is not me but I was wondering if this is addressing Frank or Evensaul?

  8. #88
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Well, you don't speak for me...and I have empathy for the real human involved.
    The real human? Why don't you just label the unborn Untermensch, Frank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    It is relevant...which is why you want to pretend it isn't.

    And, just as an oak tree is an oak tree and a cement mixer is a cement mixer...a zygote is a zygote and a fetus is a fetus.

    You gotta come to grips with that...unless your religion forbids it.
    You gotta recognize that unborn children are real humans, Frank, unless your Nazi calling forbids it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I AM NOT PONTIFICATING.
    Of course you are. That's what you do. That's why back in the dark ages you got an article printed in Newsweek, another on the New York Times, and a bunch of letters to the editors printed in local newspapers. You see yourself as a semi-professional pontificator, and you want everyone to know it. That's why you put all that info in your profiles. So why try to deny it here? Very odd.

    ---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Because life isn’t free and it takes serious commitment for those parents that have to raise a seriously disabled child..
    Okay, let me ask you a question. Let's say newborn baby is disfigured. Face is badly messed up with a cleft palate. And the kid has Down Syndrome. It's going to be a long hard road for parents and child. Should the parents be allowed to kill the kid and try again? Explain your answer.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #89
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    651
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, thank you for that.

    My sense is that your position is that life begins at conception; that at the moment of conception, the zygote is effectively a human being, and should be legally endowed with the same rights and privileges you and I share as fellow human beings.

    Is this correct?
    Yes. It seems just a stage of life like any other.
    I just can't make sense when else life could "begin".

    The pro-abortion side seems to give an amazing power to a woman's womb, because when inside, no life worth protecting exists. However, as soon as it exits the womb SUDDENLY a life worth saving and protecting appears (seemingly from nowhere as the ones still in the womb matter not).

  10. #90
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    How do you know that it is? It appears that your position is that because it comes from a human, it is a human being.
    This is the extent of your rebuttal?

    Please answer the following:

    1) Is the unborn a being?

    2) If it is, then what kind of a being is it?

    Now for my reply.

    I know that the life of a human being begins at conception. It is logical and it is reasonable to believe this. Science confirms this.

    Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”
    Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

    Please dispute this if you do not believe it.

    “It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
    Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

    At conception!

    Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.
    The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

    Please note - a change of environment, not a change of kind.

    “The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization … The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”
    J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.

    What kind of being is developing? Is it a human being or some other kind of being?

    Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.
    “[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

    What other kind of being could it be???

    “The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”
    James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

    “….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”
    Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

    When does human life begin in your opinion?

    From Newsweek November 12, 1973:
    Human life begins when the ovum is fertilized and the new combined cell mass begins to divide.”
    Dr. Jasper Williams, Former President of the National Medical Association (p 74)

    Scarr, S., Weinberg, R.A., and Levine A., Understanding Development, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., 1986. page 86
    “The development of a new human being begins when a male’s sperm pierces the cell membrane of a female’s ovum, or egg….The villi become the placenta, which will nourish the developing infant for the next eight and a half months.”

    Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99
    Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex …structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection.”

    So the unborn is a SEPARATE human being!

    Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943
    “Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun…. The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life.”

    Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974
    “In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

    Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3
    The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

    From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.
    “Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed… Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments… The zygote … is a unicellular embryo..”

    The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:
    “[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.


    Unique human beings begin to develop at fertilization/conception. What is developing is a unique personal human being.

    The following quotes were taken from this site:

    http://www.lifenews.com/2015/01/08/4...at-conception/

    Here is another list of texts:

    http://clinicquotes.com/list-of-quot...at-conception/

    Now, please establish otherwise.

    Peter

  11. #91
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I'm saying the unborn is a human being by nature and it is a fact and I believe it.
    The zygote and fetus are not persons, PGA.



    Everything you say comes about by belief. One belief is built upon another to form a comprehensive worldview. The question is whether that belief is true to what is.
    If you think so...fine. I disagree...and if that is not fine with you...tough.



    Whether or not an unborn is a human being or not is what the whole issue of abortion hangs on. If it is not human then it makes no difference what you do with it; if it is a human being, then you are devaluing its life. If you devalue one group of human beings then what is to stop you from devaluing other groups. This devaluing is what Hilter did. It is what slavery did. It is what apartheid did. It is what the Caste System does. It is what a dictator does to get his way in exterminating huge chunks of undesirables.
    The issue of abortion is about whether or not a pregnant woman should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body.

    That is what it is about...and that is the issue about which I am offering my opinion.



    That is a tautology. It says nothing.
    IT SAY PLENTY ABOUT THE ISSUE...but you are bothered by the fact that it says something important.



    ....And pregnancy is about two human beings - the mother and unborn human being.



    So what?



    What you are saying is that a person can choose to murder another human being and receive no repercussions for such violence.

    Remember, there are two human beings involved, not one. If you disagree give factual and scientific evidence to support your position. I have already provided many quotes from medical, biological, scientific texts that state that the unborn is a human being. Now it become a question of authority since you continue to say that it is not ha human being and have not supported your OPINION/BELIEF.
    A pregnant woman who decides to terminate her pregnancy should be able to do so...and do so safely. She should not have to worry about people like you trying to interfere. The zygote or fetus...IS NOT A HUMAN BEING any more than a tonsil or tumor is a human being. You can look it up.



    Let me show the flaw of this kind of argumentation.

    1) There is not just one human being in the equation. There are two. What she is doing is harming another life in her selfish desire.
    Of all the things you have said, PGA...that statement is particularly disgusting.

    She has the right to do whatever she wants with her body within limits, but not the right to do whatever she wants with another human beings body.
    If she chooses to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body, she should be allowed to do so...and to do it safely. She should not be stopped because it bothers you.


    2) One Pro-life site (I included the address in my last post to Dionysus - http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/30/...ter-arguments/) gave the example of smoking. You have a right to harm your body by smoking, but you do not have the right to harm someone else via second-hand smoke. That is why smoking is banned in public in my country - Canada.
    Interesting. Thank you for sharing.



    It is a question of human rights. Do all humans have the right to life? If you say no, you put yourself in the same camp as all those who exploit others by devaluing their human worth.

    To counter the last statement, you first have to prove that the unborn is not a human being.
    I do NOT have to do that at all.

    It is a unique situation...pregnancy is.

    If a woman who is pregnant decides to terminate her pregnancy...she should be allowed to do it without interference from people like you.


    You can't do this with reason and logic. I can list text after text that describes the unborn as a human being. Medical texts, biology texts, scientific texts, all recognize the unborn as a human being. You go against a wealth of scientific understanding.

    The whole issue revolves around what the unborn being is. Many governments can legislate human beings out of existence like Hitler did, as Kim Jong-Un does, as Communism has done. They can't do this without first devaluing the intrinsic worth of a human being. Are you willing to go there?
    If you are, you have a worldview that is inconsistent for the very reason that as soon as you get put in the position of devalued, you scream for justice. You recognize the inconsistency in devaluing human beings when it gets personal.
    What particularly bothers me about this nonsense is that almost all of it is the direct result of religious fervor...and religious fervor has been the driving force of most of the misery humans have suffered throughout their existence.

    In any case, if a pregnant woman decides to terminate her pregnancy...she should be allowed to do it.

    ---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The real human? Why don't you just label the unborn Untermensch, Frank?
    I do not have to. "The unborn"...has a label. It is a zygote or a fetus.

    You gotta recognize that unborn children are real humans, Frank, unless your Nazi calling forbids it.
    A zygote or a fetus can become a human, Evensaul. But if a pregnant woman decides she wants to terminate her pregnancy, she should be allowed to do so without interference from people like you.

    I am not a Nazi...and I thought that kind of thing was not allowed in this forum.

    Of course you are. That's what you do. That's why back in the dark ages you got an article printed in Newsweek, another on the New York Times, and a bunch of letters to the editors printed in local newspapers. You see yourself as a semi-professional pontificator, and you want everyone to know it. That's why you put all that info in your profiles. So why try to deny it here? Very odd.
    If you want to suppose I am pontificating...do so. I am not, but if it makes you feel better...no problem.

  12. #92
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    A zygote or a fetus can become a human, Evensaul.
    Name:  chall4a.jpg
Views: 34
Size:  3.1 KB: Support or retract your claim that the fetus "can become a human" but is not yet human. You may not continue making this claim unless it is adequately supported.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #93
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Name:  chall4a.jpg
Views: 34
Size:  3.1 KB: Support or retract your claim that the fetus "can become a human" but is not yet human. You may not continue making this claim unless it is adequately supported.
    Ahhh...I must support a claim you made?

    Where is that written?

  14. #94
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Ahhh...I must support a claim you made?

    Where is that written?
    My claim is that the fetus we are discussing is a prenatal human. That is a scientific fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus You may not continue to claim that the fetus "can become a human" without support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am not a Nazi...and I thought that kind of thing was not allowed in this forum.
    Your effort to dehumanize the fetus makes an allusion to Nazism (untermensch) or even an explicit connection completely appropriate. Or we can compare you to slave traders and slave owners. Or to any other person or system that classifies a group as less than human so that they may be treated as objects rather than as humans with rights.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. Thanks PGA2 thanked for this post
  16. #95
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    My claim is that the fetus we are discussing is a prenatal human. That is a scientific fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus You may not continue to claim that the fetus "can become a human" without support.
    That may be...but you asked me to support a claim I did not make.

    If you are asking me to support the claim that a fetus can become a human being...I would direct your attention to all of the pregnancies that have ever occurred on planet Earth.

    The question of "when does human personhood begin" is a philosophical one...one debated by many for ages. You can read up on it here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginn...man_personhood

    Your effort to dehumanize the fetus makes an allusion to Nazism (untermensch) or even an explicit connection completely appropriate.
    Not sure how to operate that "challenge tag"...but I understand one does not have to use it to challenge a comment.

    I challenge this one. Either support it...or withdraw it.



    Or we can compare you to slave traders and slave owners.
    You are going to compare me to slave traders and slave owners???

    Okay. Not sure what to do with this bit of nonsense. I hope you do not mind if I just laugh at it.

    I must say, though, that you are not doing the quality of this forum any favors with comments like this.




    Or to any other person or system that classifies a group as less than human so that they may be treated as objects rather than as humans with rights.
    Still laughing.

    Your train seems to have come off the tracks.

  17. #96
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    The question of "when does human personhood begin" is a philosophical one...one debated by many for ages.
    A philosophical question is not science, but rather a construct of the mind, and not relevant to whether the fetus is human. The question of personhood is a Red Herring Fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

    The prenatal human fetus is in one stage of continuing development as a human being, which will include birth and continued growth to maturity, unless interrupted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ment_(biology)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I challenge this one. Either support it...or withdraw it.
    I stand by the comparisons.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #97
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A philosophical question is not science, but rather a construct of the mind, and not relevant to whether the fetus is human. The question of personhood is a Red Herring Fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
    The question of personhood is anything but a red herring fallacy. It is a question that has been debated by some of the finest minds going. What it is...is an inconvenience to people like you who want to unilaterally declare personhood to a clump of cells.


    The prenatal human fetus is in one stage of continuing development as a human being, which will include birth and continued growth to maturity, unless interrupted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ment_(biology)
    Okay...and I agree with you. The prenatal human fetus IS a prenatal human fetus.

    See...we can agree.


    I stand by the comparisons.
    The comparison was a gutter comparison..uncalled for and totally inappropriate.

    No need to stand.

    You can just lie there.

  19. #98
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    My claim is that the fetus we are discussing is a prenatal human. That is a scientific fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus You may not continue to claim that the fetus "can become a human" without support.

    Your effort to dehumanize the fetus makes an allusion to Nazism (untermensch) or even an explicit connection completely appropriate. Or we can compare you to slave traders and slave owners. Or to any other person or system that classifies a group as less than human so that they may be treated as objects rather than as humans with rights.
    I have also been waiting for Frank to support his claim about the unborn not being a human being with well substantiated fact. Thanks for the challenge!

    Peter

  20. Thanks evensaul thanked for this post
  21. #99
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    It is a question that has been debated by some of the finest minds going.
    Yes, just as some of the finest minds approved of slavery and counted those slaves as 3/5ths of a person. Just as the best minds of the Third Reich sent Jews to the gas chambers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    The comparison was a gutter comparison..uncalled for and totally inappropriate.
    The comparison is completely valid and justified because of how you want to dehumanize the human fetus and justify killing it. The way you think is the real offense.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  22. #100
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Another abortion debate opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2 View Post
    I have also been waiting for Frank to support his claim about the unborn not being a human being with well substantiated fact. Thanks for the challenge!

    Peter
    There is no challenge at present, because Evansaul challenged his own words...not mine.

    Frankly, it is my opinion that a person is not a person until birth. That is an opinion shared by many others...which I showed to be the case with some links. I also recognize that it is a philosophical question that is hotly debated...with some people coming down on one side...and others on the other side.

    For the record, I think a chicken becomes a chicken when it breaks out of its shell...and oak tree becomes an oak tree when it sprouts from the ground...and it is my opinion that a person becomes a person when it exits the body in which it has been developing.

    ---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, just as some of the finest minds approved of slavery and counted those slaves as 3/5ths of a person. Just as the best minds of the Third Reich sent Jews to the gas chambers.
    Yup...so we agree. It IS a question that has been debated by some of the finest minds going. And I am not willing for you to arbitrarily decide the question the way you want.


    The comparison is completely valid and justified because of how you want to dehumanize the human fetus and justify killing it. The way you think is the real offense.
    Yeah, if it makes you feel better about yourself to think that of me...go for it. I'm sure your god will give you high marks for feeling that ...and for testifying that your religion does not provide a significant impetus for your regards on this question.

    I'm sure truth and forbearance are no big deal with your god.

    Right?

 

 
Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Terms in the abortion debate
    By mican333 in forum General Debate
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: February 7th, 2018, 08:56 AM
  2. Is Equal Opportunity Possible?
    By UNC Reason in forum Politics
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: August 6th, 2012, 09:14 AM
  3. Missed terrorist opportunity?
    By FruitandNut in forum Current Events
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: September 13th, 2007, 04:52 PM
  4. Abortion: split from a 1 vs 1 debate
    By CC in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: April 26th, 2006, 05:37 PM
  5. Debate Mastery: Abortion
    By TheOriginal in forum General Debate
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: April 20th, 2004, 07:43 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •