Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 90
  1. #1
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    It isn't all the time that you may want to go to the mat and crank out all those lengthy research and support. Sometimes you may just need to talk it out as you would with anyone else on the street.
    So I want to make myself available to answer any questions you may have about the Christian, conservative view on things.

    To get things rolling, I'll ask you a question, and just feel free to jump in.


    Presupposition, is an assumption that you take into your reasoning and thought process to begin with. It is our bias, or starting point and everyone has them.
    so the question is, does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with?
    To serve man.

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It isn't all the time that you may want to go to the mat and crank out all those lengthy research and support. Sometimes you may just need to talk it out as you would with anyone else on the street.
    So I want to make myself available to answer any questions you may have about the Christian, conservative view on things.

    To get things rolling, I'll ask you a question, and just feel free to jump in.


    Presupposition, is an assumption that you take into your reasoning and thought process to begin with. It is our bias, or starting point and everyone has them.
    so the question is, does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with?
    Thank you, MT.

    Your question is: Does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with?

    I assume that by "conversations"...you mean "conversations about the issue of whether (what you term) 'God' exists or not." Obviously it would not effect how we have conversations about whether the Football Giants will have a better season next year or not.

    Frankly, I would not be willing to have a conversation about the existence of (what you term) "God" without first having a conversation about whether or not at least one god exists...or whether no gods exist.

    Without that preliminary discussion, a conversation about whether (what you term) "God" exists or not...seems to skip a very significant, essential step in the discussion.

    The presupposition that at least one god exists or not...DOES effect the question of how we start any conversations about gods...because it goes to the essential of my agnosticism...which I mention here again so you do not have to backtrack.

    I do not know if gods exist or not;
    I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
    I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
    I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

    ...so I don't.


    (Feel free to substitute "at least one god" for "gods" if you choose.)





    (There is no significance to my bolding other than that I had a minor stroke several years ago that left my sight slightly impaired. Bolding helps me read my text on review before posting.)

  3. Likes MindTrap028 liked this post
  4. #3
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    -God or gods-
    Yea, just substitute the word you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    I assume that by "conversations"...you mean "conversations about the issue of whether (what you term) 'God' exists or not." Obviously it would not effect how we have conversations about whether the Football Giants will have a better season next year or not.
    No, I mean about anything. I mean if we were going to discuss the football Giants, if we assume God doesn't exist, then we will try to evaluate it on the individuals efforts and talents, if we assume God, then we may evaluate it based on God's will, but ultimately when we discuss the Football Giants, we will be making an assumption one way or another, and it will effect our conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Frankly, I would not be willing to have a conversation about the existence of (what you term) "God" without first having a conversation about whether or not at least one god exists...or whether no gods exist.
    I'm not aiming to discuss God actually existing. Just that our presupposition that he does or does not effects our we have a discussion at all.

    -While an agnostic may say he doesn't know if god exists, your only option is to take an approach from either the positive or negative when it comes to most of the philosophical discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    (There is no significance to my bolding other than that I had a minor stroke several years ago that left my sight slightly impaired. Bolding helps me read my text on review before posting.)
    :( and here I thought I had gotten you excited in the discussion. *J*


    My major point of contention with agnosticism, is that it doesn't apply to argumentation. "I don't know" is not a basis for any argument, or rebuttal. One will either live their life consistent with the assertion God exists, or contrary to it, inherently.
    To serve man.

  5. #4
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    -God or gods-
    Yea, just substitute the word you like.


    No, I mean about anything. I mean if we were going to discuss the football Giants, if we assume God doesn't exist, then we will try to evaluate it on the individuals efforts and talents, if we assume God, then we may evaluate it based on God's will, but ultimately when we discuss the Football Giants, we will be making an assumption one way or another, and it will effect our conversation.
    Wow...okay. But if you are asking me if I think it to be a requirement that we do...or if I would do it...my answer would be an unqualified NO.

    Gods may very well exist...I acknowledge that, MT. THERE MAY BE GODS...THERE MAY BE ONE SPECIFIC GOD.

    I could not care less if there are or not.

    If there are gods...and those gods require me to consider them before even having a conversation about the New York Football Giants...I would tell them, as politely as possible, to take a hike.

    If there is one GOD...and that GOD requires me to consider it before even having a conversatio ...I would tell it, as politely as possible, to take a hike.

    If the God I think you are talking about exists...I WOULD LAUGH AT IT. If the God I think you are talking about exists...I am in for a very uncomfortable eternity...which I will accept rather than pretend to feel anything but contempt and scorn for it.

    Not trying to be insulting, MT. Just truthfully sharing the way I feel. We can discuss this in the future, but please read my last paragraph before going further with it at this time.

    ...


    I'm not aiming to discuss God actually existing. Just that our presupposition that he does or does not effects our we have a discussion at all.
    I am telling you that I do not agree.

    Make your case for why you suppose it does...and I'll keep as open a mind as possible. (Please keep in mind my last paragraph.)



    -While an agnostic may say he doesn't know if god exists, your only option is to take an approach from either the positive or negative when it comes to most of the philosophical discussions.
    Well, I suspect I know more about being an agnostic than you...and I can tell you with certainty that you are incorrect there. I can...and do...approach philosophical discussions with the mindset I outlined in my agnostic position above...

    ...and have no trouble doing so.

    I honestly cannot even fathom why you would make the assertion you just did.


    :( and here I thought I had gotten you excited in the discussion. *J*
    Nope.

    ASIDE: My use of bolding has caused incredibly extended discussions on boards...even after I explain the help it afford me.

    Go figure.


    My major point of contention with agnosticism, is that it doesn't apply to argumentation.
    Sure it does...and I suspect the true point of contention is that it puts a damper on most of the arguments you are going to propose in your apologetics.

    "I don't know" is not a basis for any argument, or rebuttal.
    Aha! Yeah...it is a very, very strong position...and CANNOT be rebutted.

    That bothers theists and atheists a great deal.

    Most of my discussions are interactions with atheists. (One of my reasons for trying this board out was the number of theists engaged.) The atheist go ape when they are not arguing against theistic positions (which they see as a breeze to defeat) and instead have to deal with the agnostic position...which turns most of their arguments to mush.

    One will either live their life consistent with the assertion God exists, or contrary to it, inherently.
    MT...that is so totally illogical, I almost wish I could un-read it.

    Rather than get into that, though, I see the danger of entering into this sort of thing without doing what I suggested above.

    FIRST we must have a discussion about whether at least one god exists...or not.

    Save that question...and we can deal with it...and thoughts about how you would lead your life if the (what you term) God does not exists (one possible thing.)


    SO...can we determine whether at least one god exists...or whether no gods exist?

    What do you think...or guess...or suppose?

  6. #5
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    So I'm going to respond to you without quoting everything specifically, except to maybe draw attention. Just an attempt to keep this a bit more streamlined.


    Starting at the end, you asked that we first determine if at least one god exist. However, my contention is, that one can not help but approach that question with presuppositions or a point of view that already assumes the answer. Now you recoiled at reading my assertion that we will live our lives either affirming or denying that assumption. So I will try to address that a bit more. Consider how we would try to answer the question of god? Suppose I offered some supernatural event (say resurrection of Jesus). The skepticism you would bring to bare on that, would be firmly based in a denial of Supernatural and thus God. Basically, you would approach the question from a "naturalist" position and that is a presupposition denial of God.

    I'm not saying that is "wrong" only that it exists and it effects how we are going to have the discussion, and we shouldn't ignore it and we certainly shouldn't pretend to be "neutral".

    - To the point of "I don't know" as a strong argument. .. I don't know about that
    Your approach to philosophical discussion as you referenced in your first post, is not an approach at all. You have described your mindset, not a reason for it. There is nothing in it so as to compel others to agree, nor is it inherent to a "neutral" position on any given piece of evidence one way or the other.


    -So my case is this, our presuppositions about the existence of God effect our approach to all questions, including the question "does God exist". One example is how we deal with and process "evidence". Which we will either take a supernatural or naturalist approach to, and for which there is no "neutral".

    So while you say we must first start with if God exists, I'm saying that our approach to that already assumes one conclusion or another.

    If you like, help me out and show me some tool with which we may use to evaluate God's existence that is "neutral". Or ask a further question.
    To serve man.

  7. Likes PGA2 liked this post
  8. #6
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So I'm going to respond to you without quoting everything specifically, except to maybe draw attention. Just an attempt to keep this a bit more streamlined.


    Starting at the end, you asked that we first determine if at least one god exist. However, my contention is, that one can not help but approach that question with presuppositions or a point of view that already assumes the answer. Now you recoiled at reading my assertion that we will live our lives either affirming or denying that assumption. So I will try to address that a bit more. Consider how we would try to answer the question of god? Suppose I offered some supernatural event (say resurrection of Jesus). The skepticism you would bring to bare on that, would be firmly based in a denial of Supernatural and thus God. Basically, you would approach the question from a "naturalist" position and that is a presupposition denial of God.

    I'm not saying that is "wrong" only that it exists and it effects how we are going to have the discussion, and we shouldn't ignore it and we certainly shouldn't pretend to be "neutral".

    - To the point of "I don't know" as a strong argument. .. I don't know about that
    Your approach to philosophical discussion as you referenced in your first post, is not an approach at all. You have described your mindset, not a reason for it. There is nothing in it so as to compel others to agree, nor is it inherent to a "neutral" position on any given piece of evidence one way or the other.


    -So my case is this, our presuppositions about the existence of God effect our approach to all questions, including the question "does God exist". One example is how we deal with and process "evidence". Which we will either take a supernatural or naturalist approach to, and for which there is no "neutral".

    So while you say we must first start with if God exists, I'm saying that our approach to that already assumes one conclusion or another.

    If you like, help me out and show me some tool with which we may use to evaluate God's existence that is "neutral". Or ask a further question.
    I can condense this even further.

    I did not say "we must first start with if God exists."

    I said we must first start with, "Can we determine if at least one god exists (in other words, if any gods exist)...or if no gods exist.

    I don't pretend to be neutral. I stated in my codification of my agnosticism that I cannot even think of a way of reasonably guessing one way or the other.

    I say it is impossible to determine if any gods exist...or if no gods exist.

    To go that further step that...not only does at least one god exist...it is (what you deem to be) God...and has the qualities and sensibilities which you ascribe to it.

    I really want to insist on dealing first with the question of:

    Can we determine if at least one god exists...or if no gods exist.

    Please give that a shot...and if you come up with any answer besides...NO, WE CANNOT...

    ...let's discuss the whys and wherefores of your take.

  9. #7
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Well, I don't have a problem moving from.
    "Does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with? "
    To
    Can we determine if at least one god exists.

    ---
    We can determine if at least one god exists. First in that we are forced to recognize the incoherence of the statement "God does not exist". As a statement of "A necessary being does not exist" is incoherent (God being understood as a necessary being). Second in that God's existence is the only option to make our life experience intelligible. Such as our access to logic. (In that we can use and appeal to logic), and morality.

    That is one of the short answers on one of my takes.
    To serve man.

  10. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, I don't have a problem moving from.
    "Does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with? "
    To
    Can we determine if at least one god exists.

    ---
    We can determine if at least one god exists. First in that we are forced to recognize the incoherence of the statement "God does not exist". As a statement of "A necessary being does not exist" is incoherent (God being understood as a necessary being). Second in that God's existence is the only option to make our life experience intelligible. Such as our access to logic. (In that we can use and appeal to logic), and morality.

    That is one of the short answers on one of my takes.
    I hope you do better on one of the longer ones.

    If we are going to work with you being allowed to assert "(what you term) God (not just any god)...is a "necessary being"...there is nowhere to go.

    If we allow you to do that...you have to allow me to assert "(what you term) God is not a necessary being...and neither are any other gods."

    We're at a stand-still with that.

    I do agree that "there are no gods" is (what you term) incoherent...although I would use "gratuitous."

    I would use "gratuitous" to describe "there is a necessary being...and that being is my God."

    Let's go at it with a bit more rigor.

    Can we determine that at least one god exists. (I expect some sort of ontological arguments here...most of which I am familiar with and consider EXTREMELY lacking.)

    By the way, I wish you could stay away from that "God" usage. That does nothing for our conversation at this moment...and we are trying to see if we can determine that at least one god exists.

    ASIDE: I was raised a Roman Catholic...and was an observant Catholic until I began designating myself as an agnostic. Would you be willing to tell me your religion...demonination, if you will...so that I have information that might be helpful in understanding where you are coming from. We each, as you observed earlier, will have our biases.

  11. #9
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    If we allow you to do that...you have to allow me to assert "(what you term) God is not a necessary being...and neither are any other gods."

    We're at a stand-still with that.
    Well, it isn't so much as be 'allowed" as it is what the word "God" means.

    Also, you may be able to define things however you like, but that just means your talking about a different thing. Such that you and I can both agree that a god that isn't necessary doesn't exist, but that does not address the question of God as defined.

    Like, does a car exist (where a car is defined as having 4 wheels) or does a car exist (where car is defined as having 18 million wheels).

    You are arbitrarily rejecting an understanding that is pretty common. I see no reason to accept your objection, and you are free to it, but it is from bias not reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Can we determine that at least one god exists. (I expect some sort of ontological arguments here...most of which I am familiar with and consider EXTREMELY lacking.)
    We can't consider the question unless we know what your talking about when you say "god".

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    By the way, I wish you could stay away from that "God" usage. That does nothing for our conversation at this moment...and we are trying to see if we can determine that at least one god exists.
    Count it as force of habit if you like.

    As long as you do not contend that a necessary being can not possibly exist, then the question before you is does one actually exist, To which my point is directed at considering, and is the question I'm addressing. Just to make sure we are discussing the same thing.

    You are of course free to introduce your own definition of god so that I can address that.
    To serve man.

  12. #10
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    [QUOTE=MindTrap028;558543]

    As long as you do not contend that a necessary being can not possibly exist,
    I contend...and will insist...that you cannot gratuitously assert that a "necessary being" is a "necessary being"...unless you are willing to allow me to gratuitously assert that there is no such thing as a necessary being.

    Do you really want to make this conversation a dead-end this soon?

    I am willing to use your definition of gods...necessary beings...as long as I am able to assert gratuitously that there is no such thing as a necessary being.

    So...in order to avoid that dead-end...

    ...can we determine if at least one god exists or not?

    (HINT: The answer is OF COURSE WE CANNOT...NO WAY...NO HOW.)

    Now...using that hint...I ask again:

    Can we determine if at least one god exists or not?

  13. #11
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    I contend...and will insist...that you cannot gratuitously assert that a "necessary being" is a "necessary being"...unless you are willing to allow me to gratuitously assert that there is no such thing as a necessary being.
    Well your problem is not with me, your problem is with the logical law of identity. It is not gratuitous to say A=A
    and that is exactly what you are objecting to when you say that I can not assert that "necessary being" is a "necessary being".

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    I am willing to use your definition of gods...necessary beings...as long as I am able to assert gratuitously that there is no such thing as a necessary being.

    So...in order to avoid that dead-end...
    Indeed I have already addressed the logical absurdity of such an assertion. You are of course free to maintain a logically absurd position.


    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    ...can we determine if at least one god exists or not?

    (HINT: The answer is OF COURSE WE CANNOT...NO WAY...NO HOW.)
    Well, certainly not if we are not willing to submit to the logical law of identity. If your intention is to reject logic in it's most basic form, then it is a dead-end.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Can we determine if at least one god exists or not?
    I think as long as my objection to your response here is sound then my position is the most reasonable one so far presented.

    of course, I have supported my conclusion with some reason, and I see that you have stated that we can not, but I see no reason to accept that especially in the face of what I have offered.

    ---and I slipped out of my not quoting line for line.. sorry. Will try next time.
    To serve man.

  14. #12
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well your problem is not with me, your problem is with the logical law of identity. It is not gratuitous to say A=A
    and that is exactly what you are objecting to when you say that I can not assert that "necessary being" is a "necessary being".
    Okay...we will do it your way.

    Your problem is with logic in general. You are simply asserting the existence of a "necessary being." You are doing that gratuitously...and I reject it. (See how easy that is!)


    Indeed I have already addressed the logical absurdity of such an assertion. You are of course free to maintain a logically absurd position.
    This is always were it ends up with theists unwilling to see the obvious...and with atheists unwilling to see the obvious. Both...theist and atheist...argue that I am maintaining a logically absurd position because I will not agree with their guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Fine...I will continue to assert that I am still waiting for a logical response to "Can we determine if at least one god exists (or not)"...which is something other than, "Hell no. We cannot."

    Give it another try.



    Well, certainly not if we are not willing to submit to the logical law of identity. If your intention is to reject logic in it's most basic form, then it is a dead-end.
    There is nothing logical about what you have said.

    You are not asking me to "submit" to any logical laws...you are asking me to submit to what you want to be logical laws so that you can continue to that god you want to get to.


    I think as long as my objection to your response here is sound then my position is the most reasonable one so far presented.
    Your response is NOT sound...and easily the most reasonable response so far is: I have no idea if there are any gods or not.

    of course, I have supported my conclusion with some reason, and I see that you have stated that we can not, but I see no reason to accept that especially in the face of what I have offered.
    What you have offered is nothing but gratuitous assertions, MT. NOTHING but gratuitous assertions followed by other gratuitous assertions.

    The atheists do it all the time also. They know their assertions have no base...but they feel they can force me to accept that there are no gods...and to assert that there has to be because "all this" necessitates one...is absurdly illogical.

    ---and I slipped out of my not quoting line for line.. sorry. Will try next time.
    No problem. You are not materially distorting what I am saying. I can live with paraphrasing...until it becomes distortion.

  15. #13
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Okay...we will do it your way.

    Your problem is with logic in general. You are simply asserting the existence of a "necessary being." You are doing that gratuitously...and I reject it. (See how easy that is!)
    I'm not simply asserting that a necessary being exists. I'm saying that if we are going to have a conversation, we can not consistently conceive of saying a necessary being does not exist.

    Thus we have disproved the contrary.

    That is not simply asserting. As long as the idea of a necessary being is coherent we can not have a coherent discussion that denies it's existence.
    The idea is not incoherent, we have disproved the contrary... we are left with only one option.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    This is always were it ends up with theists unwilling to see the obvious...and with atheists unwilling to see the obvious. Both...theist and atheist...argue that I am maintaining a logically absurd position because I will not agree with their guesses about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

    Fine...I will continue to assert that I am still waiting for a logical response to "Can we determine if at least one god exists (or not)"...which is something other than, "Hell no. We cannot."

    Give it another try.
    I apprecaite your feelings on the matter, but it doesn't substanitvly respond to what I said.
    Your position was that A=/=A That is absurd by defintion.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    There is nothing logical about what you have said.

    You are not asking me to "submit" to any logical laws...you are asking me to submit to what you want to be logical laws so that you can continue to that god you want to get to.
    I'm a little confused..
    Are you denying the law of identity? (A can no be both A and not A in the same sense at the same time).
    Are you denying that you violated the law of identy?
    Are you asserting that I violated it or did not use it properly?
    or is it some other?

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    The atheists do it all the time also. They know their assertions have no base...but they feel they can force me to accept that there are no gods...and to assert that there has to be because "all this" necessitates one...is absurdly illogical.
    Well, I'm interested in how that figures.
    To serve man.

  16. #14
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm not simply asserting that a necessary being exists. I'm saying that if we are going to have a conversation, we can not consistently conceive of saying a necessary being does not exist.
    You are asserting the need for a "necessary being."

    I am saying it is a gratuitous assertion. The reason I am saying that...is because it is.


    Thus we have disproved the contrary.
    Thus we have proved the contrary. (See how easy that is!)

    That is not simply asserting. As long as the idea of a necessary being is coherent we can not have a coherent discussion that denies it's existence.
    It is simply asserting...and there is no way you are going to assert it without me telling you that it is a gratuitous assertion.

    What you are trying to do here is say, "The notion that there is no god"...is illogical.

    It is not illogical...it is one POSSIBLE truth about the REALITY.

    By the same token, there are those who claim that "The notion that there is a god"...is illogical.

    That also is not illogical. It is one POSSIBLE truth about the REALITY.


    The idea is not incoherent, we have disproved the contrary... we are left with only one option.
    My goodness...these unsubstantiated, gratuitous assertions are really piling up.

    Stop for a while.


    I apprecaite your feelings on the matter, but it doesn't substanitvly respond to what I said.
    Your position was that A=/=A That is absurd by defintion.
    Now...that was a poor characterization (not even close to paraphrasing) of what I am saying.



    I'm a little confused..
    Are you denying the law of identity? (A can no be both A and not A in the same sense at the same time).
    Are you denying that you violated the law of identy?
    Are you asserting that I violated it or did not use it properly?
    or is it some other?
    I have no idea of what you are doing with it...but if it were alive, I am sure it would resent what you are doing. Some states might even require to register for what you are doing.


    Well, I'm interested in how that figures.
    Ask an atheist.

    BACK TO THE BEGINNING: Can we determine if at least one god exists or not?

    I know the answer. The answer is NO, WE CANNOT.

    Earlier in the conversation, I was trying to find out if you are willing to acknowledge that is the correct answer.

    Now, I am attempting to determine if you are able to realize it is.

  17. #15
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    The most important thing, and I was tempted just to post this question.

    Question to opponent.do you understand what the logical law of identity is?

    Because the conversation seems to be stuck on my trying to
    communicate a point relying on that, and I want to make sure we are communicating well.


    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    You are asserting the need for a "necessary being."

    I am saying it is a gratuitous assertion. The reason I am saying that...is because it is.
    What part did I say we "need" necessary being? I have so far focused on what it is exactly we are talking about
    and the logical limits on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Thus we have proved the contrary. (See how easy that is!)
    Well, words have to have meaning still.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    It is simply asserting...and there is no way you are going to assert it without me telling you that it is a gratuitous assertion.

    What you are trying to do here is say, "The notion that there is no god"...is illogical.

    It is not illogical...it is one POSSIBLE truth about the REALITY.

    By the same token, there are those who claim that "The notion that there is a god"...is illogical.

    That also is not illogical. It is one POSSIBLE truth about the REALITY.
    Well once we define our terms, some things are illogical.
    Your position is that both must be equally tenable, and they are not. One is inherently gibberish to say.

    You are simply assuming that they are both equally tenable, and not actually showing a logical flaw in what I have offered you.
    That is question begging.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Now...that was a poor characterization (not even close to paraphrasing) of what I am saying.
    I am in no way producing a straw-man.. this is what you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK POST 10
    I contend...and will insist...that you cannot gratuitously assert that a "necessary being" is a "necessary being"..
    This is you saying A=/=A is something you are going to contest.
    Where A is "necessary being".

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    I have no idea of what you are doing with it...but if it were alive, I am sure it would resent what you are doing. Some states might even require to register for what you are doing.
    not helpful.
    Do you know what the logical law of identity is?

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    BACK TO THE BEGINNING: Can we determine if at least one god exists or not?

    I know the answer. The answer is NO, WE CANNOT.

    Earlier in the conversation, I was trying to find out if you are willing to acknowledge that is the correct answer.

    Now, I am attempting to determine if you are able to realize it is.
    Well, again you are assuming that both answers are equally tenable. I have given you an argument for why that is not the case.
    As I see it, we are currently stuck on if you recognize the logical law of identity, or if you recognize how your quoted above objection is a logical fallacy.

    Other than that, your simply asserting your answer without evidence or reason, which is just bias speaking at that point.
    Your welcome to your opinion and all i'm just trying to make sure we are communicating here.
    To serve man.

  18. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The most important thing, and I was tempted just to post this question.

    Question to opponent.do you understand what the logical law of identity is?
    Yes.

    Because the conversation seems to be stuck on my trying to
    communicate a point relying on that, and I want to make sure we are communicating well.

    We are communicating...but I would say NOT VERY WELL.

    I just deleted the balance of your post.

    Let's start over again.

    Can we determine if gods (or a god) exists or not?

    Is there a way we can do that?

    Just answer the questions as posed...without the balance of things. Allow me time to be sure we are on the same page...and I'll ask other specific questions at that point.

    (Both of those questions can be answered with either a "YES" or a "NO." And certainly you are welcome, even encouraged, to ask any you want to ask.)




  19. #17
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    We are communicating...but I would say NOT VERY WELL.
    Well English is't exactly my proficient language.. it is all I have though, so i'm stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Let's start over again.

    Can we determine if gods (or a god) exists or not?
    As my good friend Curly from the 3 stooges would say. "Certainly".

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Is there a way we can do that?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK

    Just answer the questions as posed...without the balance of things. Allow me time to be sure we are on the same page...and I'll ask other specific questions at that point.
    cool beans.

    --
    My turn.
    Are you a fan of the NFL New York Giants? I'm a saints fan, but the Manning Family is great to us.
    To serve man.

  20. #18
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well English is't exactly my proficient language.. it is all I have though, so i'm stuck.


    As my good friend Curly from the 3 stooges would say. "Certainly".


    Yes.


    cool beans.

    --
    My turn.
    Are you a fan of the NFL New York Giants? I'm a saints fan, but the Manning Family is great to us.
    Last things first.

    I AM a fan of the NY Football Giants. My wife and I have a house festooned with Giants regalia...and our porch sports a Giants flag or banner most of the year. But this year has been a TEST.

    The lousy season I could handle...but the treatment of Eli at the hands of that clod of a Head Coach is something that will take me a long while to forget. Eli has been a gentleman throughout his years in NY...and has shown more respect and class than 99.9% of all the professional athletes I've seen. He led mediocre Giants teams to the Super Bowl...and won them...beating the Pats and Brady twice!

    That benching was one of the worst moves any team has ever made against a star player.

    Yeah...the Manning team and New Orleans go way back. My sister lived in the Garden Section...and one of my great memories was Mardi Gras there. Saints fans are dear to me.

    Now...back to the game at hand.

    You seem to be sure you can determine whether gods exist or not...and I'd like to see the reasoning that you use.

    I would like to do this slowly...so that we do not talk over each other. Please treat any explanations as though you are working with a slow learner. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree...but I will keep up as best I can.

    My feelings are that you have been attempting a syllogism of sorts...but I have not been able to fathom its essentials.

    So...will you please lay out for me the major premise that will get you to the determination...which I expect will be that at least one god exists...and probably even "at least one god HAS TO EXIST.'

    Offer the major premise...the P1...as clearly as you can...and allow me to ask questions about it if I am not able to instinctively see what the P1 is.

  21. #19
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,540
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Last things first.

    I AM a fan of the NY Football Giants. My wife and I have a house festooned with Giants regalia...and our porch sports a Giants flag or banner most of the year. But this year has been a TEST.

    The lousy season I could handle...but the treatment of Eli at the hands of that clod of a Head Coach is something that will take me a long while to forget. Eli has been a gentleman throughout his years in NY...and has shown more respect and class than 99.9% of all the professional athletes I've seen. He led mediocre Giants teams to the Super Bowl...and won them...beating the Pats and Brady twice!

    That benching was one of the worst moves any team has ever made against a star player.

    Yeah...the Manning team and New Orleans go way back. My sister lived in the Garden Section...and one of my great memories was Mardi Gras there. Saints fans are dear to me.
    O yea, the benching was the absolute worst coaching move. As a saints fan I was upset by it, but I can't imagine what a die hard fan would feel. Good Luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRANK
    Now...back to the game at hand.

    You seem to be sure you can determine whether gods exist or not...and I'd like to see the reasoning that you use.

    I would like to do this slowly...so that we do not talk over each other. Please treat any explanations as though you are working with a slow learner. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree...but I will keep up as best I can.

    My feelings are that you have been attempting a syllogism of sorts...but I have not been able to fathom its essentials.

    So...will you please lay out for me the major premise that will get you to the determination...which I expect will be that at least one god exists...and probably even "at least one god HAS TO EXIST.'

    Offer the major premise...the P1...as clearly as you can...and allow me to ask questions about it if I am not able to instinctively see what the P1 is.
    1- God is defined as a necessary being.
    To serve man.

  22. #20
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    207
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    O yea, the benching was the absolute worst coaching move. As a saints fan I was upset by it, but I can't imagine what a die hard fan would feel. Good Luck.



    1- God is defined as a necessary being.
    Okay...I counter with god is not defined as a necessary being. Or...god is defined as blah, blah, blah.

    Which do we go with?

    And why?

 

 
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •