Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5
Results 81 to 90 of 90
  1. #81
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    This strikes me as a question of change vs continuity, tradition vs innovation. For me, that is the root of conservatism vs liberalism (in the very base sense of the words). Yet what strikes me, is you seem to be saying that the conservative viewpoint is the one endorsing change and evolution of new standards. To me, that is a very liberal perspective, to embrase developing and changing standards from the bottom up, rather than to preserve traditional standards and impose them from the top down. (But as I noted before, you are not a traditional conservitive in my expereince and that's what makes this dialog very interesting to me.)
    I'm more noting that the family is the proper structure to initiate change, and that it is a change that can't be stopped.
    I mean, look at the transition the family has gone through because of the sexual revolution (and the enabling of the state). We now have what I would consider "borken" families with mass single motherhood.
    I think that is a bad change, and as the name "broken family" implies, I think it isn't right. However the state really has not place in stopping it, even though it has some hand in enabling it to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    How would you synergize your view of authoritin and continuity of government vs the authority and continuity of religious teaching? Is it simply that the agent of authority is more trusted in religion (being God) rather than the structure (Authoritarian and unchanging)?
    Maybe I'm not understanding the question properly. For me, God defines and creats the family, families should define the gov, and the gov should be limited to specific and certain things.
    I am not sure if that answers your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Is this some kind of principle? That a later institution cannot comment on or modify the institution that spawned it? I don't understand why this is necessarily true.
    It is more of an observation. That the family doesn't need the gov to define it. That is not to say that the gov can't influence the family structure or anything like that.
    I think I have argued that it does, has, and is generally bad. From my christian perspective, that is because that inherently separate identity of the family is defined by God apart from the state.
    However it seems to be a religiously neutral observation that the family doesn't need the state to define it in order for it to have meaning.

    There may be a principle in there that we can apply... just not sure what it is.
    To serve man.

  2. #82
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    ...does the presupposition that God does or doesn't exist effect how we start to have conversations to begin with?
    I doubt it. If anything, my guess would be that most conversations start off being theistically neutral, unless the conversation touches on theism in an important way. I suspect most conversations in general start off with a neutral stance on such things; they simply aren't a factor.

    For example, if a conversation about buying a house comes up, I don't have any good reason to think that my own or my conversational partner's position on extraterrestrial life has any relevance. In order for bias to play a role in the conversation, there would have to be some relevance to the conversation.

  3. Thanks MindTrap028 thanked for this post
  4. #83
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I doubt it. If anything, my guess would be that most conversations start off being theistically neutral, unless the conversation touches on theism in an important way. I suspect most conversations in general start off with a neutral stance on such things; they simply aren't a factor.

    For example, if a conversation about buying a house comes up, I don't have any good reason to think that my own or my conversational partner's position on extraterrestrial life has any relevance. In order for bias to play a role in the conversation, there would have to be some relevance to the conversation.
    Well, a presuppositionalist, would say that if your going to use logic then you are making some assumption about God.
    Also, there is some assumption involved regarding other minds actually existing. If that relates to Gods existence, in a similar way as the logic point.. I'm not sure.
    To serve man.

  5. #84
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, a presuppositionalist, would say that if your going to use logic then you are making some assumption about God.
    What do you mean?

  6. #85
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    What do you mean?
    Some assumptions when one engages with another person with logic.

    1) That there are other minds and things outside of ones own. If your consciousness is the source of all things, then you are basically the definition of God.
    - So the God related assumptions is first, that you are not God.

    2) One assumes that Logic is or is not dependent on God as it's source.


    So the presuppositionalist would say that you are making some assumptions about God when you try to argue with another with logic. From there it goes... When you engage with someone who assumes that logic is based in God, then you lose the ability to appeal to logic consistently with them without first justifying it without God. .. Yet we skip this all the time in debate. Its a bit of borrowing from anthers world view without merit.
    To serve man.

  7. Thanks Dionysus thanked for this post
  8. #86
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Some assumptions when one engages with another person with logic.

    1) That there are other minds and things outside of ones own. If your consciousness is the source of all things, then you are basically the definition of God.
    - So the God related assumptions is first, that you are not God.

    2) One assumes that Logic is or is not dependent on God as it's source.

    So the presuppositionalist would say that you are making some assumptions about God when you try to argue with another with logic. From there it goes... When you engage with someone who assumes that logic is based in God, then you lose the ability to appeal to logic consistently with them without first justifying it without God. .. Yet we skip this all the time in debate. Its a bit of borrowing from anthers world view without merit.
    I don't know if I agree with how you're saying people make assumptions in the context of this conversation. You describe it as if people take a moment to set up and agree upon all these pre-conditions before having a conversation.

    Consider that right now, we're having a conversation. But I'm not actively assuming that there are other minds than my own. That is to say, I'm not granting that your mind exists for the sake of facilitating the discussion. I simply behave as if you're a person just like I am, for no other reason than I have no reason to behave otherwise.

    If anything, the assumption is completely passive. That is, I don't know of another way of behaving other than behaving as if I'm not the only conscious thing in existence.

  9. Likes MindTrap028 liked this post
  10. #87
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I don't know if I agree with how you're saying people make assumptions in the context of this conversation. You describe it as if people take a moment to set up and agree upon all these pre-conditions before having a conversation.

    Consider that right now, we're having a conversation. But I'm not actively assuming that there are other minds than my own. That is to say, I'm not granting that your mind exists for the sake of facilitating the discussion. I simply behave as if you're a person just like I am, for no other reason than I have no reason to behave otherwise.

    If anything, the assumption is completely passive. That is, I don't know of another way of behaving other than behaving as if I'm not the only conscious thing in existence.
    I agree that it isn't generally an active assumption.
    However, the fact that there are "hidden assumptions" is relevant in logical debate.

    It is however precisely hidden assumptions which makes certain positions incapable of being lived out consistently with the belief. ... .. I am sure I could think of a good example if I were brilliant.
    ..... .. nope, nothing.
    To serve man.

  11. #88
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,569
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I agree that it isn't generally an active assumption.
    However, the fact that there are "hidden assumptions" is relevant in logical debate.
    I understand what you're claiming, but I don't see the relationship you're describing.

    You asked if the "God" question is necessarily a component of any conversation.

    I enjoy pink Starburst candies more than other Starburst candies. How does my position on the "God" question bear on this?

  12. #89
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    8,719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIO
    I understand what you're claiming, but I don't see the relationship you're describing.

    You asked if the "God" question is necessarily a component of any conversation.

    I enjoy pink Starburst candies more than other Starburst candies. How does my position on the "God" question bear on this?
    I see your point. I don't think I can really challenge that, or explain around it. So i would have to say that the "any conversation" is too broad.
    I guess It should be more specific to any logical debate.
    So. .. You have .. basically answered that question. Thanks You get a +1 to your stick of smiting.
    To serve man.

  13. #90
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mind Trapped By: Omnibus ask anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I enjoy pink Starburst candies more than other Starburst candies. How does my position on the "God" question bear on this?
    Because your moral sense of right and wrong have no more meaning or weight than your choice of Starburst candies you godless heathen!

    Sorry, couldn't resist, I get that line too often. :D
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. Likes Dionysus liked this post
 

 
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •