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  1. #1
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    Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Trump tax cuts summarized:

    Trump: Give me $100 to give to the rich
    You: Are you crazy? I donít have $100 to give to the rich
    Trump: Itís OK, just borrow it from your credit card
    You: No, I donít want to borrow money just to give it to the rich
    Trump: How about if I give you 20 dollars now, then you can borrow $100 dollars to give to the rich, and you can pay it back, with interest, later.
    You: OK, sounds good

    I hope that everyone understands that any tax cuts that are not accompanied by spending cuts are actually money that you are borrowing that you and your descendants will have to pay back later. Tax cuts are the ultimate political con because politicians are able to use your own money to buy your vote, but you dont have to pay the bill until later.

  2. #2
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Well, first of all it isn't your money they are giving to the rich. They are simply letting the rich keep more of their money.
    The congress is spending your money, that is true. But it doesn't mean that the money being taxed is originally "yours".
    So your narrative is wrong. The better are more "just" context would be to talk about the percentage of the total U.S. Budget that the rich are ultimately paying.

    Like, are they paying 5%... 10%.. 80%? Is that amount just? The way you have framed the debate is fundamentally flawed, because it would still be valid if the rich were paying 100% of all taxes. Which would of course be unjust, and thus your approach is flawed.
    Last edited by MindTrap028; February 20th, 2018 at 09:22 AM.
    To serve man.

  3. #3
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    I would also question the assumption that the benefits of these cuts are going disproportionately to the rich. Is there any evidence of that?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.Ē -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #4
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I would also question the assumption that the benefits of these cuts are going disproportionately to the rich. Is there any evidence of that?
    In 2015 45%+ paid no income tax at all.

    If the bottom half of all "taxpayers" currently pay NO income tax at all, they just can not be given a tax cut virtually by definition.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/45...tax-2016-02-24
    "An estimated 45.3% of American households — roughly 77.5 million — will pay no federal individual income tax, according to data for the 2015 tax year from the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan Washington-based research group. (Note that this does not necessarily mean they won’t owe their states income tax.)"

    So who paid what (by income level)?

    https://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/...s-income-taxes

    In 1980 the top 1% of earners paid 19.29% of all personal income tax, in 2015 it was 39.04%.
    In 1980 the top 25% of earners paid 73.12% of all personal income tax, in 2015 it was 86.62%.

    The bottom 75% of wage earners in 1980 paid 26.88% of all personal income tax, in 2015 it was 13.28%.

    So in the last 35yrs the top one percent of earners has seen their contribution of total $'s double, while the bottom 75% is contributing half as much of total $'s as they were in the same time period.

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  6. #5
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    If the bottom half of all "taxpayers" currently pay NO income tax at all, they just can not be given a tax cut virtually by definition.
    No disagreement here, and an excellent point. I would add what prompted my question, that those top earners under the current plan actually see their taxes go up (those above $1M in income in California and New York) due to the cap in state tax credits. Its an odd argument to say this was a "tax cut for the rich" when the very rich saw their taxes go up and literally every other tax payer saw their taxes go down.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.Ē -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #6
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    No disagreement here, and an excellent point. I would add what prompted my question, that those top earners under the current plan actually see their taxes go up (those above $1M in income in California and New York) due to the cap in state tax credits. Its an odd argument to say this was a "tax cut for the rich" when the very rich saw their taxes go up and literally every other tax payer saw their taxes go down.
    People who owned businesses say their business profit taxes drop pretty dramatically. Anyone who owns shares in a corporation saw corporate taxes take a nose dive and thus those investments increase in potential future value. Both of these things are a big boon to people who have substantial wealth invested in those areas.

    The estate tax rollbacks only affect people with very large estates, aka only benefit the rich. It was also a boon if you have significant overseas bank accounts, not something you see much among the lower or middle class.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  9. #7
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    People who owned businesses say their business profit taxes drop pretty dramatically. Anyone who owns shares in a corporation saw corporate taxes take a nose dive and thus those investments increase in potential future value. Both of these things are a big boon to people who have substantial wealth invested in those areas.
    But neither of these groups are predominately made up of "the rich." Certainly the rich are in those groups, but half of all small business owners (IE the sole proprietorship primarily affected here) take home $0/year. For the other half, the average is something like $70k.

    Same with stock owners. There are certainly gigantic hedgefunds with the megawealthy that benefited (though given their general portfolios, not as much as you might think), but the majority of stock owners do so through index funds, retirement pension funds, or other conglomerations of relatively small holdings.

    I don't think that anyone is arguing that no "wealthy people" received a benefit, but rather that it is disengenous to say that these tax cuts are really "tax cuts for the rich" or even (as the OP put it) a massive transfer payment to the rich. That seems a bit extreme given the data, right?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.Ē -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  10. #8
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    Re: Trump Tax Cuts - Ultimate Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    But neither of these groups are predominately made up of "the rich." Certainly the rich are in those groups, but half of all small business owners (IE the sole proprietorship primarily affected here) take home $0/year. For the other half, the average is something like $70k.
    Those taking home $0 aren't paying anything in business taxes so generally speaking so they don't enter into the picture. And the statistics you offer are generally for "small business owners" but the tax breaks are for all business owners. Some of the worlds biggest businesses are not coproprations but are privately held businesses. There are private businesses worth more than 100 billion in anunal revenue. So using "small business" is automatically de-selecting the wealthy business owners for the most part. What you want is "private business".

    Same with stock owners. There are certainly gigantic hedgefunds with the megawealthy that benefited (though given their general portfolios, not as much as you might think), but the majority of stock owners do so through index funds, retirement pension funds, or other conglomerations of relatively small holdings.
    Nope. http://time.com/money/5054009/stock-...rcent-richest/ The top 10% of Americans own 84% of US stock holdings. Yes, lots of middle income people own some stock, but they are bit players compared to the wealthy. Money begets money, that's how capitalism works and it is the rich who do most of the investment and thus reap most of the rewards.
    I don't think that anyone is arguing that no "wealthy people" received a benefit, but rather that it is disengenous to say that these tax cuts are really "tax cuts for the rich" or even (as the OP put it) a massive transfer payment to the rich. That seems a bit extreme given the data, right?
    No. It largely benefits the wealthy, and it was designed to largely benefit the wealthy. It's being sold as a benefit to everyone, and yes everyone can get a little taste of the lower taxes, but by and large, the rich get the biggest breaks here and because they have the most at stake, far and away the biggest total windfall in straight dollars.

    Here's the thing though, taxes will always be largely about the wealthy, both increases and decreases. That's where the money is. A small sliver of the population owns the lions share of capital and collects the lions share of income. When it comes time to pay the governments bills, they will be on the hook for the lions share of that. So they are always the ones with their hands in the meat grinder for bettter or worse.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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