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  1. #181
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I am happy to see you back, it has been a while

    Funny that "AR-15" is just named after the manufacturer of that rifle. It has no inherent meaning of "assault rifle" as is somewhat commonly thought. The media does lean toward a "if the AR-15 were just specifically outlawed, no more mass shootings".

    Not as funny, here in WA ST "we" just decided the Ruger 10/22 rifle my dad gave me when I was 12 is now an "assault rifle".

    ---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------



    Not particularly appropriate example. In Japan after the last major quake/tidal wave was handled with civility. Imagine when that happens to CA in the US. The carnage will not be because of guns, but more of the difference in morality.
    Thanks! Good to be back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think most Americans can and do agree to a certain level of gun control. We'd like to see gun ownership require some sort of registration. We would like to see guns that can be traced back to their owners. Most of us agree some class of gun, generally those made for combat, should be outlawed for civiliian use. For example, there is general agreement that automatic weapons should be banned.

    However, there is a lot of distrust of the government. Lots of Americans do not believe the government (the individuals that make up government) are acting with the citizenry's best interests in mind. I am one of them to a certain degree. What would/could government do with a list of registered gun owners is one example. Could this be used to compell a gun program whereby citizens are forced to give up their guns? Could it be used to levy taxes on these individuals? LK brought up her own fear that banning a class of guns, such as assault weapons, would lead to a slippery slope that would result in further and more draconian gun bans. While a slippery slope argument may be a logical fallacy, in and of itself, the argument highlights the general fear of gun owners in light of a distrust of those who run the government.

    I think there should be agreement that whatever gun regulations exist must be coherent with the 2nd amendment. The courts have been pretty clear that civilians have the right to own guns. I know there are some people who don't agree with this interpretation. The right to privacy is contested, yet our laws have been forced to comply with this constitutional interpretation.

    Let's look at the cause for this distrust. Democrat Presidential candidate, Eric Swalwell wants to ban and buyback all assault weapons.
    https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/04/10/eric-swalwells-grand-plan-to-ban-and-buy-back-guns-gets-a-reality-check-not-for-sale-buddy-743201

    Again, to LK's point, he does not define what an assault weapon is.

    This is what Diane Feinstein once said
    "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an
    out right ban
    , picking up every one of them....Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in. I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."

    Jan Schakowsky (D - Ill)
    “I believe…..this is my final word……I believe that I’m supporting the Constitution of the United States which
    does not give the right for any individual to own a handgun
    ….”

    William Clay (D-MO)
    ” …we need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns

    So, there is a reasonable fear, I think, that allowing for further regulations is a backdoor (or maybe just opening the front door) for those in government that want to get rid of all guns. And those people exist.

    So, in my estimation, there cannot be any gun regulation at this point. The people don't trust the representatives. Frankly, none of the regulations I have heard being proposed would actually reduce violence.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm_term=.30cb52416223


    We can reduce violence in America. I don't think focusing on guns is the way to do it. There are root causes for violence and guns are simply not the root cause.

    I agree. This is a problem here in America. We tend to ban the tool rather than address the real problem. A man shot up a movie theater? Ban the gun. A pitbull mauled a woman? Ban pitbulls. We need to focus on the real issues... not the instruments.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

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  3. #182
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Not particularly appropriate example. In Japan after the last major quake/tidal wave was handled with civility. Imagine when that happens to CA in the US. The carnage will not be because of guns, but more of the difference in morality.
    But it is actually. It is the character of a nation that values civility and cooperation that we should try to emulate. Once we do that, then we won't be so eager to protect our right to own and operate lethal weapons in our day to day lives. We won't be fantasizing that we need to fight back against our own elected officials or that random strangers will leap out and try to rape or kill us. It is a better way to live your life. Not that everything is perfect here in Japan, but that aspect of society is much better than in America.

    ---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    We can reduce violence in America. I don't think focusing on guns is the way to do it. There are root causes for violence and guns are simply not the root cause.
    True, though I think if we addressed the root cause, opposition to banning guns would all but disappear. Those who most desire to have them are often part of the cultural current that keeps them protected and which makes them dangerous.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #183
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    "When the statistics are weighted for population, the rate of murders per 100,000 people was higher in London than in New York in February and March."

    ...

    "As of April 9 there have been more than 30 murders in London so far in 2019.

    The most recent fatal stabbing was on April 8 when a man, aged in his 20s, died in Manor Park, East London at around 9.30pm after being stabbed and shot.

    Just five days earlier a man in his 40s died in Harrow, North London following a "machete attack".

    Two people were fatally stabbed in separate knife attacks in the capital, in the first six hours of 2019.

    The first knife murder victim of the new year was Charlotte Huggins, 33, who died in Camberwell, London, just after 4am on January 1.

    A 34-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and has been bailed to return in mid-January.

    The second person to be killed was a Romanian bouncer, Tudor Simionov, who was stabbed to death by gatecrashers outside a New Year's Eve party in London's exclusive Mayfair area.

    He was attacked while working as a doorman at a £12.5million central London townhouse.

    On January 8 Jaden Moody, 14, died after being stabbed in Waltham Forest after his moped was rammed off the road, witnesses have claimed.

    On January 11 the body of a woman in her 30s was found in City Island Way and a 46-year-old man was taken into custody for her murder.

    On January 29 Nedim Bilgin, 17, died in the street on Caledonian Road, North London, after being stabbed in the chest at around 7pm.

    And Polish national Kamil Malysz was found dead at his home in Acton on January 27.

    Two men were arrested on suspicion of murder after a man died following a fire that broke out at a North London hospital.

    The 46-year-old man died after the blaze ripped through Highgate Mental Health Centre in Dartmouth Park Hill, Highgate, on February 3.

    On February 5, a teenager was stabbed to death outside his family home - just 500 yards from Prince George's school.

    Lajean Richards, 19, a Domino's delivery driver, was knifed repeatedly in a car park outside a four-storey block of flats where he lived with his mum.

    He is the third teenager to be stabbed to death in London already this year.

    In the early hours of February 10 a Dennis Anderson, 39, was stabbed to death in East Dulwich.

    Another man has died after being stabbed in a central London street before collapsing in a hotel lobby.

    Eleven people have been arrested on suspicion of murder following the horror at The Wesley Hotel at around 11pm last night, February 18.

    The victim is believed to have been knifed in the street at around 10.45pm before stumbling into the four-star hotel on Euston Street, near London Euston station.

    On February 26, a man was knifed to death outside Ilford train station in what was the fourth stabbing in the capital in less than eight hours.

    The victim, aged 20, was stabbed at around 8.48pm in the latest bloodshed to hit London.

    On March 1 Jodie Chesney, 17, was stabbed to death in an east London park.

    And on March 2 50-year-old was found dead with fatal knife injuries at a property in Hendon, north-west London. A 54-year-old man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder.

    On March 22, a 17-year-old boy was stabbed to death in Isleworth, West London.

    On March 24, a man was found stabbed to death in Pinner, North West, London

    There were 132 murders in the capital in 2018.

    The total number of London murders, excluding victims of terrorism, has shot up by 38 per cent since 2014."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/827314...019-stabbings/
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #184
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    If you want to look at murder rates, the real pattern for where they are highest is where you find well established criminal gangs. If you look at cities with the highest per capita murder rates, they are all in the Americas, most of them in Latin America, and a few in American cities. Every one of them has very serious criminal gang problems.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  7. #185
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If you want to look at murder rates, the real pattern for where they are highest is where you find well established criminal gangs. If you look at cities with the highest per capita murder rates, they are all in the Americas, most of them in Latin America, and a few in American cities. Every one of them has very serious criminal gang problems.
    And the dramatic rise in stabbing murders since 2014 in London has been attributed to gangs of Eastern Europeans who immigrated there. The larger point, for this thread, is that the lack of guns hasn't prevented murders from being committed.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  9. #186
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    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But it is actually. It is the character of a nation that values civility and cooperation that we should try to emulate. Once we do that, then we won't be so eager to protect our right to own and operate lethal weapons in our day to day lives.
    Still sounds like apple and oranges to me.

    Are you saying that if gun ownership were less restrictive in Japan they would no longer be civil people with values?
    Or the corollary, that if the gun ownership in the US weren't legal people here would be dramatically more civil/moral?

    Now if you could show Japan had a lot of violence in the past. Then put highly restrictive gun ownership laws into affect and the violence dramatically subsided you would have a great point. However I see reality being a bit different:

    https://crimeresearch.org/2016/04/mu...fter-gun-bans/
    "Every place that has banned guns (either all guns or all handguns) has seen murder rates go up. You cannot point to one place where murder rates have fallen, whether it’s Chicago or D.C. or even island nations such as England, Jamaica, or Ireland."
    "Regarding Japan, the point to make clear is that Japan has had a very low murder rate for as long as data is available, and more importantly, the guns were banned by private citizens. Some point to the drop in homicides after the 1958 gun law, but they ignore the 1946 regulations under the Allied Occupation and the 1950 Order that continued “the general prohibition of possession of guns by civilians.” The issue here is to separate out whether it is gun control or something else different about Japan that is important, and unless you can see a change before and after there has been a change in gun control laws it is difficult to infer anything about the impact of gun control laws."

    ---------- Post added at 04:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Not that everything is perfect here in Japan, but that aspect of society is much better than in America.
    Agreed, now if you can show banning guns/particular guns currently, would in and of itself lend a society to be more moral/civil/less damn dangerous, you may be able to win me over.
    Reality is (in CA for instance) the gov't has already told people that they could be on their own for days when the next big earthquake hits. CA isn't Japan and the looting that will take place will only be the beggining. Crime will soar in big cities until the gov't can respond adequately. How would you protect your family in this very likely scenario if you lived in CA?

    ---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    True, though I think if we addressed the root cause, opposition to banning guns would all but disappear. Those who most desire to have them are often part of the cultural current that keeps them protected and which makes them dangerous.
    Please don't take this as an insult, but this is a very, very naïve position!

    1. Many in the US like to collect things. Guns are a major one. These people never even fire the weapon! They are displayed similar to art, and indeed, thought of as art!
    2. You totally misunderstand how ingrained hunting is (a passion I do not share BTW) in the US. I work in the construction industry. It is a male dominated field that is also dominated by hunters.
    3. Some people (me included) just like to shoot at targets occasionally.
    4. I personally have needed a weapon for protection of my family until the police had enough time to arrive and take over.
    5. Peace of mind can not/should not be underestimated. If a person feels safer and sleeps better because they have a gun in the house, they will be healthier overall. Even if they never needed it, if it hurts no one and makes some one feel/sleep better....
    6. It's a cliché but, make guns illegal and only criminals will have them is basically true here. The US is a big country with massive borders, as long as there is demand, there will be supply so long as the rest of the world doesn't go along with the ban (this goes back to root causes and differences in values) criminals will still have guns.

    You are aware there are still mass murders in Japan, yes? Is it really better if the weapon is something other than a gun?
    http://time.com/4423216/mass-killings-japan-tsukui/
    "In the early hours of Tuesday, a man entered a care center for mentally disabled people in Japan’s Kanagawa prefecture, about 30 miles west of Tokyo, and embarked on a stabbing rampage. According to initial reports, the 26-year-old man, named as Satoshi Uematsu, was a former employee at the facility, and may have been upset about being fired. He later turned himself in at the nearby Tsukui police station, having killed 19 people and wounding 25 more."


    I know you responded to this comment a few posts ago, but I don't think you did so adequately to rebut the point:
    "Set an explosive by the power meter at any stadium or shopping mall, block an exit or two just prior to the explosion, let people kill themselves trying to get away.
    Pick any large gathering of people and I will tell you a way for mass murder/killing." without using a gun.

    Again, the cause of the violence is ultimately of more concern than the tools of violence, if we are truly interested in less suffering.
    Last edited by Belthazor; April 19th, 2019 at 03:44 PM.

 

 
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