Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11
Results 201 to 203 of 203
  1. #201
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,323
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Indeed we took the guns, they had been using them to wreak havoc on their neighbors and on us. Seems a reasonable thing to do. And it's worked pretty nicely ever since. Taking guns away when people misuse them seems pretty rational to me. It was not some prelude to terrible oppression or exploitation.

    I guess that wasn't quite the story per Belthazor. You have a subservient public and they have been pretty aggressive towards other nations historically.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Lots of Americans don't own any guns and would like to live peacefully. Is being American tantamount to enjoying violence and crime? I'd be happy to see America as a less violent place. Better I think, much better in fact. Should we trust the government? To a degree. If you don't you should be an anarchist. The government is made up 100% of other Americans and it's chosen 100% by Americans. If we don't trust it at all it means we don't trust ourselves at all.

    This is a false set of choices. Gun ownership has no correlation with a desire to live peacefully. Being American means owning a certain amount of responsibility for one's own freedom and happiness. And that includes the right to own a firearm. Whether it be to defend one's home, to hunt, to collect, or for fear of the government, it is a fundamental right protected by our Constitution.

    And sure, our government is made up of Americans. And we don't trust them because we know that with enough power, most of us wouldn't be trustworthy and history defends this world view. Nazi Germany was made up of Democratically elected Germans. Venezuela's government consists of elected Venezuelans. The very existence of our Constitution is an expression of our mistrust of the men who we elect. It is why we have set the confines of government and why we have a bill of rights. The founders (some of them) didn't trust themselves. And I get it Sig. You have an almost childlike faith in government. And I don't mean that perjoratively. We have had similar discussion and you almost always defend those who are in govt and stand up for them. That's fine. It just isn't everyone's view. Hence, I am glad we have a right to own guns.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Carry that attitude forward and you end up saying that we should never learn or change, that perhaps we are perfect and incapable of improvement. Its rubbish I think.

    If other people do something better than you, you should learn from them. Being violent jerks is not our inherent strength. I'd say our real strength is our embrace of change and progress over dogma and tradition.
    Sure, IF other people do something better. I am not about to concede that the Japanese are a more peaceful people than we are because of their stance on private gun ownership. They have launched multiple wars of outright imperialism within the last century. It took a really big bomb (arguably two of them) to get them to express a more pacifistic global policy. Whose system is working better and who is more peaceful? Or do only the last couple of decades count?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. Likes mican333, Belthazor liked this post
  3. #202
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    1,003
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not about to concede that the Japanese are a more peaceful people than we are because of their stance on private gun ownership.
    I missed the significance of this point the first time I read it and it needs to be repeated, apparently often......

  4. #203
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,363
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Gun Control and your stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I guess that wasn't quite the story per Belthazor. You have a subservient public and they have been pretty aggressive towards other nations historically.
    Not especially compared with any other culture. Imperial Japan was more an anomaly than a constant theme. They have had historical wars with China and Korea. But what nation with a 1000+ year history doesn't have such events?

    The fact is, Japan has the kind of low crime society that remains desired but elusive in America. And one result of that is they don't see much purpose for owning guns at home much less carrying them in public.

    This is a false set of choices. Gun ownership has no correlation with a desire to live peacefully.
    I disagree. Anyone who wishes to live a life of violence should probably get themselves a gun. It is a highly effective weapon. If you have no desire to engage in violence, then there are far fewer reasons to own a gun. What you should say is there is not a necessary cause between the two. But... there is a correlation. The people who die most from violence are gang members. Many gang members own firearms. This alone creates a strong correlation in the overall statistics.

    This does not mean any given gun owner is violent. But, violence and guns (or any weapon) go hand in hand, that is what they were designed for after all.

    Whether it be to defend one's home, to hunt, to collect, or for fear of the government, it is a fundamental right protected by our Constitution.
    Indeed, and that attitude is part and parcel of why America cannot shake its high level of violence compared to other countries with a similar level of development and wealth. The idea that we need to be ready for violence makes us ready for violence.

    And sure, our government is made up of Americans. And we don't trust them because we know that with enough power, most of us wouldn't be trustworthy and history defends this world view.
    Yet the people that support gun ownership tend to be the same people that support the massive US military spending and dominance. And they tend to be the people that support militarised police and strict violent punishment for breaking social rules. If the belief is truly that power is inherently dangerous, why do they so often support the most violent apparatus of political power? I think this talk of corruption and the danger of power is just lip service. It doesn't comport with actual behavior.

    What does is the belief that violence is the best tool to settle moral disagreement and so all agents must be ready and able to engage in violence at all times. If you truly distrust political power, don't give politicians political power or more importantly, the martial means to enforce that power. Why are these so-called small government people so rarely in favor of disarming the government? I find it especially foolish because they will never have enough martial power to actually oppose the government if it did become oppressive.

    It is why we have set the confines of government and why we have a bill of rights.
    Indeed, the rule of law. That people follow the law is what we trust. It is just a piece of paper ultimately. It is only the trust that people will obey what is written there that gives it any power at all. It is what we call rule of law. The government's job is to enforce and build upon it. If you don't trust them to some extent to follow the law then there is no law. Wisely, we structure power in balance so that it is difficult for any one person or any small group to control all the levers of power. But... with sufficient conspiracy, there is still nothing but paper between you and tyranny, and any personal firearm won't amount to jack squat when the police or military comes for you.

    So it is faith in the law and faith in people charged to uphold it that is the foundation for society.

    And I get it Sig. You have an almost childlike faith in government. And I don't mean that pejoratively. We have had similar discussion and you almost always defend those who are in govt and stand up for them. That's fine. It just isn't everyone's view.
    You really don't get it. I don't have any special faith in Government. I see the government as just people who have power. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of power. I trust them all about the same. I have to have some trust or it would be most rational to kill them all or myself. That's no way to live. Trusting is a good way to live. It cannot be unlimited because people are not universally good. But you need to at least start from a position of trust and then move towards one of distrust when your trust is broken. Many people seem to think the Government is some alien entity, not like themselves. But the truth is it is just more of themselves. The same human strengths and failings. I only defend the government as being human and a natural extension of social organization. Some governments are mostly good, and some are mostly evil, and all of them are human.

    Hence, I am glad we have a right to own guns.
    And I don't really care if we do or not. But I think that many Americans who own guns do so for foolish reasons. Unfortunately, that makes them more dangerous fools.


    Sure, IF other people do something better. I am not about to concede that the Japanese are a more peaceful people than we are because of their stance on private gun ownership.
    Good, because THAT ISN'T MY ARGUMENT. How many times do I have to say this before it penetrates peoples brains? I will resort to all caps until people stop with this strawman.

    My argument is.....
    JAPANESE CULTURE IS MORE PEACEFUL AND TRUSTING AND THEREFORE THEY DON'T LIKE GUNS AS MUCH AS WE DO. IF WE HAD MORE TRUST WE WOULD HAVE FEWER GUNS AND LESS VIOLENCE.

    They have launched multiple wars of outright imperialism within the last century.
    So did Germany, Italy, China, Russia, and England. And in the past nearly all of Europe. And America had its own wars of expansion and conquest as well if farther back. But it doesn't matter because we are not talking about being pacifists, we are talking about social trust within a society. We are talking about using guns to murder one another, not to engage in war. We are discussing civilian gun ownership, civic violence, crime, and personal safety.

    ---------- Post added at 11:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Most Americans that own guns DO live peacefully!
    Since there is roughly one gun per person in America, if life here were the way you describe, murders by guns would be exponentially higher!
    They are exponentially higher than in other countries where crime is very low. America's murder rate is 5.35 per 100K people. Japan's is 0.28 per 100K people. That's a hell of a lot lower, exponential in fact. Are guns to blame? No. American attitudes and culture are to blame. And that same culture loves guns.

    Now if you could show disarming Americans would necessarily lead to a more peaceful/respectful society you would have a great point!
    OK, you get the Caps treatment too. THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT. I NEVER ARGUED TAKING AWAY GUNS WOULD MAKE US PEACEFUL. I SAID IF WE WERE PEACEFUL WE WOULD NOT WANT SO MANY GUNS.

    IOW, guns in and of themselves DO NOT cause violence, period!
    Yes, I did say that, so WHY DO YOU KEEP ARGUING AS IF I SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11

Similar Threads

  1. There is no tenable stance against gay marriage
    By Zhavric in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 207
    Last Post: August 2nd, 2011, 09:57 AM
  2. Your stance on overpopulation
    By Xanadu Moo in forum ODN Polls
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: August 13th, 2007, 08:11 AM
  3. Something from nothing: the THEIST stance.
    By Zhavric in forum Religion
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: May 16th, 2007, 07:27 AM
  4. Abortion Stance
    By Meng Bomin in forum ODN Polls
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: October 21st, 2004, 09:48 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •