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  1. #81
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Okay. And also the issue is whose subjective opinion is the relevant one in the debate. Well, the OP makes it clear.

    "Please be as thorough with your reasoning as possible"

    So the ONLY moral judge who's relevant to this discussion is ME and likewise whether something is moral or valid is my own.
    O, if the op was directed at only you, then I guess I will sit back and read your answer.
    I thought it was like, our thoughts from the POV of the person on the cliff. Or about the persons on the cliff, like what could be some valid reasons they would give from their pov.

    Sorry, didn't realize the OP was directed at you specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But the OP asked for MY position so it's the only relevant one. So it's the only valid one.
    Sorry, I misunderstood the context of the OP. didn't realize it was directed at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    From my subjective perspective there is no alternative.
    So, other people can't be right and thus have a position to sway you towards?
    That sounds more closed minded then anything else. But it is your belief so it is a valid one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Okay. But right now we are using my POV exclusively.
    Not "we".. "you".

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    And if you are looking at subjective morality from a subjective perspective, you can only entertain one opinion at a time. You have to leave your own subjective view of matters in order to consider the another viewpoint might invalidate your own.
    I thought that is what I was doing by answering according to the person on the cliffs potential answers.

    But we should just make this a private thread as I wasn't invited.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Not from the subjective perspective. No matter who does the judging, they will have an opinion on who is right and who is wrong. I think she should not drop the baby. She thinks she should drop the baby. If someone else is the judge of which opinion is valid and subjectively thinks she should not drop the baby, then my view is valid and hers is invalid.
    This is inconsistent with what you just finished saying.
    Namely, we have to set our view aside.
    Or were you implying that we can't do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    It's only from the objective view that both opinions are equally valid (they objectively contradict each other and if the judge does not offer his own subjective opinion on the matter, then they cancel each other out). But subjectively (where the judge does use his own subjective criteria), one is superior to the other.
    Not at all. Subjectivly one could have no opinion on the matter.
    Do you like what is in box A or Box B?
    What is in Box a? "punt the baby". What is in Box B "don't punt the baby".
    I can see why she would do iether, and both appear to be internally valid.

    Or I could suspend my position and put myself in their shoes.

    Both are consistent with a subjective morality and so your claim that it is ONLY from the objective POV that both can be seen as equally valid is incorrect.


    Your appeal to objecitve reality, is not about which is moral. In that context they are both moral within their own contexts.
    your statement
    "I think X is wrong"
    and her stateent
    "I think X is right"

    Are both true statements. that is all it means to say they are both valid. You are just breaking the context in which a statement is made to say they cancel out.
    Your thinking X, doesn't make someone else thinking on X go away.
    To serve man.

  2. #82
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Very funny

    May I ask:

    how did you come by the title of ?:
    "ODN's Crotchety Old Man"

    I mean, were you awarded it, or was it your idea?

    Please take no offense, I usually enjoy reading your posts and I am genuinely curious.

    Sorry for such an off topic comment, but I don't think I am the only one reading that might wonder
    It came about as a consequence of some damn kids wandering onto my lawn...

    Actually, back when I was a member of staff, one of the perks of being a member of staff was being able to creat custom lables for yourself. I put that one in as a dumb joke, but now that I’m no longer staff, I can’t edit it. So now I’m stuck with it.

  3. Likes Squatch347 liked this post
  4. #83
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So, other people can't be right and thus have a position to sway you towards?
    That sounds more closed minded then anything else. But it is your belief so it is a valid one.
    I never said that one can never change their moral views or what would justify such a change. Nor do I see the relevance to the current discussion.

    In terms of the debate, what is relevant is what I think at the moment I'm asked to justify my viewpoint. How it might be change


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not "we".. "you".
    I'm pretty sure there are two of us having this discussion. Aren't "we"?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This is inconsistent with what you just finished saying.
    Namely, we have to set our view aside.
    Or were you implying that we can't do that?
    I have no idea what you are talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not at all. Subjectivly one could have no opinion on the matter.
    Do you like what is in box A or Box B?
    What is in Box a? "punt the baby". What is in Box B "don't punt the baby".
    I can see why she would do iether, and both appear to be internally valid.
    It sounds like you are saying that one can hold two contrary opinions as equal by refraining from morally judging them. That is true, but then that person has no basis to say that either position is valid (since validity is based on moral judgement).

    So it stands that one cannot subjectively judge two contrary moral positions without considering one of them more valid than the other.


    And I assume "internally valid" means that both parties hold that their own views are valid. While it is true that people's views are all internally valid, that is a fact/observation, not a moral judgment (and also objectively true).


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Or I could suspend my position and put myself in their shoes.
    And you would not be morally judging their positions.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your appeal to objecitve reality, is not about which is moral. In that context they are both moral within their own contexts.
    your statement
    "I think X is wrong"
    and her stateent
    "I think X is right"

    Are both true statements. that is all it means to say they are both valid. You are just breaking the context in which a statement is made to say they cancel out.
    Your thinking X, doesn't make someone else thinking on X go away.
    I didn't say they cancel out. From my subjective moral perspective, one is valid and the other is not.
    Last edited by mican333; May 8th, 2018 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #84
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    It came about as a consequence of some damn kids wandering onto my lawn...

    Actually, back when I was a member of staff, one of the perks of being a member of staff was being able to creat custom lables for yourself. I put that one in as a dumb joke, but now that I’m no longer staff, I can’t edit it. So now I’m stuck with it.

    I appreciate your candor, and though as some others at times have commented on the occasional appropriateness of the "title", I'm sure Squatch would change it if you mentioned it

  6. #85
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    And the reason why has been clearly explained to you.

    Does the person have an abortion CHOOSE to have an abortion?
    Does the person with a mosquito on their arm CHOOSE to swat the mosquito off?
    Yes?
    Then the analogy works.

    You see, when you set up such limited criteria for an analogy, completely disregarding the nuances of what you're actually trying discuss, you can set up literally any analogy to support literally any position.
    I accept your concession.

  7. #86
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    I accept your concession.
    Dude, I just demonstrated how any analogy could fulfill the criteria you set and lead to a completely opposite result regarding the morality than what you reach with your analogy. It's perfectly acceptable to swat the mosquito off, therefore, abortion is perfectly fine, unless you want to say that it's wrong to swat mosquitoes.

  8. #87
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Dude, I just pretended like there's no difference between a human life and an insect so I could try to convince you any analogy could fulfill the criteria you set and lead to a completely opposite result regarding the morality than what you reach with your analogy. It's perfectly acceptable to swat the mosquito off, therefore, abortion is perfectly fine, unless you actually give a **** about reality and understand that humans and insects aren't in any way equal.
    Fixed that for you.

  9. #88
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    humans and insects aren't in any way equal
    Oh, so there are aspects of my analogy that you think fail to match the real-world situation it's intended to represent? Sorry dude, you can't change the context.

  10. #89
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Oh, so there are aspects of my analogy that you think fail to match the real-world situation it's intended to represent? Sorry dude, you can't change the context.
    I'm sorry, did you think we were still going? I gave you a challenge, spelled out what you needed to do and you failed to provide it. The analogy is a comparison of choices of ending a human life/starting a human life from happening. You insisted that an insect was relevant.

    It wasn't.

    So we're done. You lost. That's settled. Next time don't give a terrible argument when challenged. If you need to have the last word, go for it. but don't think for a MOMENT that you in any way answered my challenge.

  11. #90
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    You insisted that an insect was relevant.
    No, I demonstrated why your analogy sucks by providing a likewise faulty analogy which fulfills the exact same criteria you provided, yet leads to the opposite conclusion. You then responded with the further criteria regarding the nature of the entity being removed - thus attempting to change the context. Your criticism of my analogy is exactly the same objections you've been receiving about your analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    don't think for a MOMENT that you in any way answered my challenge.
    I didn't even try to answer it. The challenge fails due to the faulty analogy.

  12. #91
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Sad that my first response didn't get a reply.... but, I realize I was too influenced by the responses anyway and didn't actually address the question. So I'm doing a do-over...

    Its a goofy thought experiment but sure, I'll play along.

    Answer: I can't think of a solid moral reason to drop the kid rather than the wallet, not from my moral viewpoint. I can imagine other moral frameworks where it would be moral, but I don't ascribe to them so I'm not much interested in them.

    Critique: You basically came up with a tortured analogy to ask, what is more valuable, a child's life or a financial loss. I don' think that is a strong analogy to abortion as the title of the thread suggests.

    Conclusion: If someone thinks this argument is persuasive, then I think they are morally bound to donate, say, 1/2 of your net income to programs to feed and care for children in the developing world right now and for the rest of your life. If children's lives are woth a financial sacrifice, then it's the right thing to do to spend as much of your money as they can helping kids in need.

    Critique of Conclusion: I point this out, because again, there is always more to life than this kind of scenarios. They may be good at isolating a very specific question from a broader one, but that doesn't always help us make a good life decision. I mean, I'd aplaud someone who put half their income into helping strangers kids, but I don't think its a very likely way that everyone can live, or should. The key here is you don't nessesarily have a moral responsibility to kids you don't know and are far away with many others much closer and more connected to them. Its a very generous gesture, but probably not the best way to help kids in the end.

    Abortion has a lot of vectors. What you think about the sacntity of life. How you see the nature of life and personhood. Weighing potential outcomes and possibilities of the future agaisnt realities of the mometn. Body autonomy, individualism, state responsibility and more. Its damned complicated to be honest. We can isolate individual elements of it, but that doesn't simplify the whole of it all that much for us, it may even obfuscate how intrinsicly complicated it is.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #92
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Answer: I can't think of a solid moral reason to drop the kid rather than the wallet, not from my moral viewpoint. I can imagine other moral frameworks where it would be moral, but I don't ascribe to them so I'm not much interested in them.
    Thank you for following the rules and starting the debate up.

    Critique: You basically came up with a tortured analogy to ask, what is more valuable, a child's life or a financial loss. I don' think that is a strong analogy to abortion as the title of the thread suggests.
    I think of it more as a lifestyle loss. Yes, there are some financial hardships. But a common reason given for abortion is "I can't afford a child" or "the consequences of the poverty it would cause are too daunting" or some wording there of. Let me ask you this: If you take away rape, incest, and threat of death due to medical complication then what reasons are we left with for abortion?

  14. #93
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Thank you for following the rules and starting the debate up.
    I guess you missed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    ...Let's say an entitled teenager whose daddy gives her an allowance gets pregnant because YOLO and in the ninth month decides to suck that thing outta there because she doesn't want her daddy to stop giving her an allowance and OMG stretch marks. In such a case, I would freely admit that I find her decision to be immoral....
    As you can see, I agreed that such a circumstance would be immoral. I know it's easy to miss things when a person is caught up in throwing a fit, but this scenario which I agreed was immoral was equivalent to the ridiculous conditions you put in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    I think of it more as a lifestyle loss.
    And if ALL reasons for having an abortion were that simple, you'd have a good point. But they aren't, so you don't.

  15. #94
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    And if ALL reasons for having an abortion were that simple, you'd have a good point. But they aren't, so you don't.
    Excepting rape, incest, and medical risk for the mother, what are those reasons?

  16. #95
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Excepting rape, incest, and medical risk for the mother, what are those reasons?
    It could be that the mother simply doesn't want to carry the pregnancy to term. For example (you might have missed this earlier; trapped in thrall of tantrums and so forth) It could be the case that a parent's reason is based on a prenatal screening which reveals that the baby has severe brain defects (let's say anencephaly). And since we're leaving out reasons that can actually matter (rape, incest, risk to the mother), and we're trivializing other things that matter very much (finances; overall quality of life) it could be the case that she simply sees no point in bringing such a pregnancy to term. It could be ENTIRELY a lifestyle choice. It could be nothing to do with lifestyle at all. In any case, in such circumstances, I would say that her choosing to have an abortion is a perfectly moral decision to make. I would say the same thing if she decided to bring it to term.

  17. #96
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    So your list of acceptable abortion reasons are "because I feel like it", "because I feel the kid might stress me out / be a big burden", and because "I don't feel like changing my lifestyle."

    How are these different from your YOLO gal you mentioned?

  18. #97
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    So your list of acceptable abortion reasons are "because I feel like it"...
    Nope. Not necessarily, and not what I said. It can be something like that (such as in the example I provided), but that doesn't mean that these reasons are de facto sufficient to be rightly considered moral. There are a number of things to consider when evaluating the intrinsic moral value of an act; it's not something that can be neatly distilled with sweeping generalizations or forced analogies.

  19. #98
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    There are a number of things to consider when evaluating the intrinsic moral value of an act;
    What are they?

  20. #99
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    I want to remind everyone that is participating in this thread to keep it civil. No personal attacks, no baiting, just debate the issues. Consider this an official warning. Further flaming or trolling will result in a ban from the thread and stiff infraction.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  21. #100
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    Re: The Cliff: a thought experiment on abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    I think of it more as a lifestyle loss. Yes, there are some financial hardships. But a common reason given for abortion is "I can't afford a child" or "the consequences of the poverty it would cause are too daunting" or some wording there of. Let me ask you this: If you take away rape, incest, and threat of death due to medical complication then what reasons are we left with for abortion?
    1. Whether you are or are not a parent.
    2. How many people are in your family.
    3. What activities you will spend your time doing.
    4. The possibility of other children being born.
    5. Fear of the unknown.
    6. Changing the priorities you have for the other members of your family.
    7. The possibility of losing someone you come to care about.
    8. Hormonal changes.
    9. Changes to future health risks.
    10. Social embarrassment and stigma
    11. The decreased ability to find a spouse whom you can marry and raise children with.
    12. The loss of friends and family
    13. The loss or degradation of your professional career
    14. The autonomy not to love someone you haven't chosen to love

    Hows that for starters?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
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