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  1. #21
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    If there were certainly a gender pay gap, as long as men are last off the sinking boat, then I consider it a tax for that purpose.
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  2. #22
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Zhav, I was just about to start writing a reply, when I noticed your new thread. Given that you're probably about to get banned, again, I'm going to wait to see if there is any reason to write and post. Suffice to say, for now, that you've offered fallacy after fallacy, without any substantive argument. All rhetoric and no meat makes a crappy argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If there were certainly a gender pay gap, as long as men are last off the sinking boat, then I consider it a tax for that purpose.
    Can you make that a bit clearer? :scratching head:
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #24
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    @ even.
    Suppose men are payed $5 an hour more than woman at any given job with all things being equal.

    Say for example they are both waiters on a cruise ship. The man makes $10 an hour and the woman makes $5.
    She complains that she is not being payed equally.

    So here I play the part of the male waiter.
    and I would respond to this as follows.

    Yes, you are equally qualified in every way with regards to our jobs, but in the case that the ship does sink. You (the woman) will be given preference by rescuers, you will be given preference for seats on the life boats. The call will go out to all the ship "woman and children first". As such, the $5 difference in pay that you see, is the price .. a Tax if you will, for that preference and unequal treatment in life and death situations.

    As long as that preference in life and death situations exists, the complaints for pay inequality falls on deaf ears.
    To serve man.

  5. #25
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Okay, that seems a fair analogy.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  7. #26
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If there were certainly a gender pay gap, as long as men are last off the sinking boat, then I consider it a tax for that purpose.
    FYI: That's more of a literary fiction than a real-life practice. Disabled, injured, and elderly tend to go first, then its catch as catch can. No maritime law specifies ladies first, nor do most rescue operations prioritize by sex.
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  8. #27
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    FYI: That's more of a literary fiction than a real-life practice. Disabled, injured, and elderly tend to go first, then its catch as catch can. No maritime law specifies ladies first, nor do most rescue operations prioritize by sex.
    I contend that it is a real life expectation.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...ren-first.html
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    One of the features of the disaster that has provoked a great deal of comment is the stream of reports from angry survivors of how, in the chaos, men refused to put women and children first, and instead pushed themselves forward to escape; and how the Italian crew ignored passengers and reportedly shouldered their way past mothers and pregnant women to get into lifeboats.
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    When the Titanic went down in April 1912, the Captain’s orders were: ‘Women and children first!’

    Although this legendary edict was never part of maritime law, it was adhered to so strictly on the Titanic that men were actually stopped from boarding lifeboats, many of which went to sea only three-quarters full.

    There were only a few exceptions to the unvarying tales of heroism: three men in steerage who disobeyed the rule — Italians, coincidentally — were shot.

    The chivalry was reflected in survival rates: 74 per cent of the women were saved; 52 per cent of the children; and just 20 per cent of the men.
    So your correct about maritime law.. however the figures don't lie about the bias.


    It wasn't always that way for sure.. the link goes on to tell of many previous accounts where women were basically neglected, as an all for your self attitude was the rule.
    However, it did have a start (below) and became an expectation of conduct. .. which as shown above, still exists today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    It seems that the seafaring command about women and children being first to board lifeboats originated with the sinking of HMS Birkenhead off the coast of South Africa in 1852. The ship was carrying 480 British troops and about 26 women and children.

    When the ship foundered, the soldiers’ commander told his men to ‘stand fast!’ and allow women and children to make use of the few lifeboats on the vessel.

    Some women did not want to go on their own — they had to be torn away from their husbands, carried over to the bulwark and dropped over the ship’s side. Most of the soldiers and sailors aboard drowned or were eaten by sharks, but all the women and children survived, and the chivalric ethos became known as the Birkenhead Drill, celebrated in a Rudyard Kipling poem, Soldier An’ Sailor Too:

    To take your chance in the thick of a rush, with firing all about

    Is nothing so bad when you’ve cover to ’and, an’ leave an likin’ to shout;

    But to stand and be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew,

    An’ they done it, the Jollies — ’Er Majesty’s Jollies — soldier an’ sailor too!

    The notion of women and children first reached its apogee in the late Victorian and Edwardian eras, for the idea that women are weak and need protecting by males went hand-in-hand with the belief that women should be excluded from positions of responsibility.
    So... I think I am justified in the belief that the expectation exists, and thus reasonable to think the standard will be applied in life & Death situation, or at the very least after the fact.
    Basically, men were shamed for saving themselves by society, I think that supports my point.


    I think it is important to note that this is only applies to the more orderly evacuations. If a ship sinks in 5 min.. I don't really expect to see anything but every man for themselves mentalities.
    So, it isn't a catch all.
    To serve man.

  9. #28
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    Re: The Gender Pay Gap: convince me

    Still I think, given it is little more than a sometimes followed social custom, it is not really worthy of consideration in pay if you are trying to be just about such a thing.

    I think a number of the arguments offered are a bit like this, arguments that while rational, don't actually apply to the modern business world all that much.

    Take the whole idea abut women not lasting as long on the job and thus we loose our training benefits etc...

    The problem with that is that career jobs are really the exception in the modern economy. Most workers move jobs many times in their careers, largely because they tend to gain the most in salary and position when changing companies rather than remaining loyal to one. Companies fire people whenevery they need to, there is little to no actual loyalty down the chain. So it makes sense for employees to have little no none either. In the end you either offer a competative salary, or the top employees will jump ship before long. So the idea that you would price people based on their long term development is generally a sham. There are exceptions, but it's not the way most companies opperate.

    That said, when women do take time of to raise a family, or when they have kids, keep working, but make sure to take the time needed to be a parent, they often will find they fall behind in their careers. That's just life, same happens when a guy gets too into his hobbies or the like. Take time and focus from work, and you probably won't fare as well in it. Make work your life, you will probably succede more. So this part I think is both inevitable, valid, and to be expected.

    I also think the whole labor market, but women a bit more so, suffer in terms of not negotiating or themselves very effectively.
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