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  1. #1
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    Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    In this thread I will be looking for evidence that Trump colluded with Russia to illegally steal the 2016 presidential election, as Democrats and the liberal media have been claiming for more than a year.

    Anyone?

    Anyone?

    There is no evidence.
    Last edited by evensaul; May 24th, 2018 at 10:14 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Not just Democrats, Even - last I heard nearly half of the Republican party was in favour of the investigation.
    You need to update the title to "Democrats, liberal media, and a large portion of the Republican party" - but that would defeat the purpose of your thread as a snide response to CowboyX.

    In any case, this really shouldn't be in the Debate Forum, since there's no argument being forwarded.

  3. #3
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Just for you, boy, I added a four word sentence to the op to forward an argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There is no evidence.
    First, are you claiming that there was no collusion, or simply expressing your interpretation of an ongoing investigation?
    Second, are you aware of the requirements for an investigation like this to even be seriously considered by the various agencies involved, let alone actually undertaken?
    Third, are you aware that the investigation has already resulted in numerous guilty please and criminal indictments?

  5. #5
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    First, are you claiming that there was no collusion, or simply expressing your interpretation of an ongoing investigation?
    Second, are you aware of the requirements for an investigation like this to even be seriously considered by the various agencies involved, let alone actually undertaken?
    Third, are you aware that the investigation has already resulted in numerous guilty please and criminal indictments?
    Enlighten me.

    In the mean time, you might also read the House Intelligence Committee final report that found NO EVIDENCE of collusion between Trump and Russia:

    https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/I...-1_1-p1-U3.pdf


    It's kind of long, so here is a summary:

    There is no evidence that Trump specifically, or even any members of his campaign, colluded with Moscow to break any election laws. There was no evidence of vote tampering. No evidence of hacking election voting machines or ballots or any other part of the election. No evidence of any illegal hacking performed by or with the knowledge of Trump or campaign officials. There IS NO EVIDENCE.

    Maybe Trump's staff were naive or even incompetent in some ways by taking meetings with questionable people, but there is absolutely no evidence they did anything illegal.

    But because Putin and the CLINTON campaign managed to convince intelligence agencies that there may have been illegal activities, or that Trump might be susceptible to blackmail over an invented episode in a Moscow hotel, Obama's administration, through the intelligence agencies, began spying on the opposing candidate and his political staff. THAT is the real scandal.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    In the mean time, you might also read the House Intelligence Committee final report that found NO EVIDENCE of collusion between Trump and Russia
    Wow, a committee headed by avid Trump-supporter Nunes released a heavily-redacted and already widely-criticized report exonerating (though not really) Trump? Impossible!
    But I guess that settles it for you, right? The fact that they found no evidence means there literally is no evidence, and whatever Mueller is (still in the process of) doing is completely made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    But because Putin and the CLINTON campaign managed to convince intelligence agencies that there may have been illegal activities, or that Trump might be susceptible to blackmail over an invented episode in a Moscow hotel, Obama's administration, through the intelligence agencies, began spying on the opposing candidate and his political staff. THAT is the real scandal.
    Yes, we'll see how the "real scandal" plays out after the real investigation, which has already resulted in convictions and indictments, plays out.

  7. #7
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Wow, a committee headed by avid Trump-supporter Nunes released a heavily-redacted and already widely-criticized report exonerating (though not really) Trump? Impossible!
    But I guess that settles it for you, right? The fact that they found no evidence means there literally is no evidence, and whatever Mueller is (still in the process of) doing is completely made up.
    This is not a refutation, at all. You've offered no evidence. None. But that is exactly what I expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Yes, we'll see how the "real scandal" plays out after the real investigation, which has already resulted in convictions and indictments, plays out.
    Again no evidence against Trump or anyone else regarding "collusion with Russia". None. Zero. NADA!
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Obama's administration, through the intelligence agencies, began spying on the opposing candidate and his political staff. THAT is the real scandal.
    Why wouldn't you post your evidence in my thread?
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  9. #9
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why wouldn't you post your evidence in my thread?
    Why aren't you refuting my op?

    Given that Dem lies and Obama administration actions (apparently by Dem supporters in intelligence areas with Obama approval) created this nonsense effort to deligitimize the Trump presidency, I don't see much wrong with his claiming it is a deep state effort. But debating you about that in your thread would have been a red herring or hijack, right? So it made sense for me to start a new thread for my purpose.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #10
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    There is something of a strawman here, or a sort of Half-Strawman.

    Officially
    The investigation was never "Trump colluded with the Russians" It was whether members of the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. While that could include Trump, from what we know, he was not personally the primary focus of the investigation.

    Other members of his campaign however were and not shockingly, that's where the indictments have been made so far, among the campaign staff. So far, they have not proven collusion there either, instead, they uncovered a number of financial crimes in the course of the investigation. Other indictments are against foreign nationals.

    So the straw man is that officially, this was never an effort to prove Trump colluded with Russians. Therefore demanding evidence that this is shown is demanding evidence for something that was never specifically claimed.

    Unofficially
    Of course, there are people who suspect Trump of collusion, but you are correct in that there is no strong evidence saying he did. I suspect he did not. I think it's possible he did violate a law or two, but only because he isn't very careful about such things and has a long history of doing shady deals. Not nefarious exactly, just without much concern for if they are strictly ethical or legal. That said, I don't think any of them will be significant enough to impeach him or indict him.

    So it's fair to ask people who think he colluded to show you their support for that, but it's not really fair to ask that of the FBI (or their apologists) since that was never a claim put forward.

    What I think
    There is very strong evidence Russia did meddle in the election, nearly everyone who is honest about it admits this is well established. It is also agreed all around that this is not legal.
    Whether Putin directed it specifically is much harder to prove. It is reasonable, he is the former head of the KGB after all. So he probably has some say in what Russian intelligence gets up to.
    There is strong evidence that some of Trump's aids in the campaign had strong Russian connections and participated in illegal financial transactions. Others in very suspect transactions but not strictly illegal.
    The preponderance of the evidence shows that the preponderance of interference was anti-Hillary. A bit less than it was pro trump.
    There is no evidence that strongly supports the notion that the interference changed the outcome of the election, it is possible, but not very likely.

    I do not think that there was coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians meddling in the election. Nor is there yet strong evidence to show there was.
    We know meddling happend, we know there were strong Russian connections, but we don't know that any kind of deal was struck or coordination happened. And I suspect there wasn't.

    That doesn't mean there wasn't cause to investigate. We knew there was a crime. We knew certain people were connected to the perpetrators of that crime in meaningful ways. What we didn't know is if there was coordination, and that is what the investigation set out to discover. So far, it has not shown any, but it is not finished just yet.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    There is something of a strawman here, or a sort of Half-Strawman.

    Officially
    The investigation was never "Trump colluded with the Russians" It was whether members of the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. While that could include Trump, from what we know, he was not personally the primary focus of the investigation.
    While I appreciate your reply, I think the only straw man here is yours, Sig. I never said or implied that the official investigation by the FBI (or the House committee) was about whether Trump colluded with Russians. The headline of this thread and my argument, is that Democrats and their lackeys in the media have worked very hard to make the public think that there was collusion, and to make average Joe think that the investigations are about the supposed collusion. And I think that claim is self-evidently true to anyone watching the news for the past year.

    ---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Yes, we'll see how the "real scandal" plays out after the real investigation, which has already resulted in convictions and indictments, plays out.
    Btw, this is an Argument to the Future fallacy. A natural effort, though, because without it you've got nothing.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Btw, this is an Argument to the Future fallacy. A natural effort, though, because without it you've got nothing.
    No, it's a valid approach to the whole mess - let's just wait and see, instead of making snide and pointless threads on ODN.

  13. #13
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    No, it's a valid approach to the whole mess - let's just wait and see, instead of making snide and pointless threads on ODN.
    If you feel that way, you are very welcome to not participate, boy. It's real easy. When you see a thread headline you don't like, just move on to the next one. Or maybe, here's a tougher one, start your own thread on a subject you think isn't pointless, more often than once every six months, instead of making snide comments on threads you don't see a point.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #14
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    While I appreciate your reply, I think the only strawman here is yours, Sig. I never said or implied that the official investigation by the FBI (or the House committee) was about whether Trump colluded with Russians. The headline of this thread and my argument, is that Democrats and their lackeys in the media have worked very hard to make the public think that there was collusion, and to make average Joe think that the investigations are about the supposed collusion. And I think that claim is self-evidently true to anyone watching the news for the past year.
    Granted, sorry, I argue this with some other folks that go farther on this than you and claim that the FBI is actually just doing the Democrats dirty work on their behalf using the deep state etc... That said...

    Can you show me some evidence that the Democratic party or the mainstream media is arguing that Donald Trump colluded with the Russians? I have challenges with these kinds of claims as I don't watch TV news, which most people do (or so I'm told) I sometimes listen to NPR, and I use news aggretation sites like Google News to link me to written articles aobut news stories from various sources.

    From those channels, I have never seen a straight claim that there is proof Donald Trump has been shown to collude with Russia during the election. Mostly they report about the investigation, and they report about what various pundits say when trying to analyze the information that is available.

    I do see the right wing media claim that the left wing media is saying that, but I've never actually seen them say that. Individual pundits and the like, sure, but not actual news organizations or the Democratic party as a whole. So while you might have that impression, I'd like to see where you get it from that isn't simply someone else saying that they say that.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Individual pundits and the like, sure, but not actual news organizations or the Democratic party as a whole. So while you might have that impression, I'd like to see where you get it from that isn't simply someone else saying that they say that.
    Well, the Democratic National Committee has filed a lawsuit alleging a broad conspiracy between Russia, wikileaks and the Trump campaign. https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f1ca68bc1bdd

    Dems high and low along with the liberal media have pushed rumors of new "bombshell" information every couple months for a year and a half, trying to delegitimize the Trump presidency. And most of the liberal media have given countless on air hours to Dems and their proxie pundits pushing the same fraud. It has been almost non-stop for a year and a half. With NO evidence offered.

    So the headline for this thread doesn't say that Dems started the investigation, or are leading it in any official way, but rather that they are masters of the fraudulent spin still being perpetrated against the American public.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #16
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, the Democratic National Committee has filed a lawsuit alleging a broad conspiracy between Russia, wikileaks and the Trump campaign. https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f1ca68bc1bdd
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I think that certainly supports your assertion. I suppose the lawsuit would outline what they feel is their evidence. I suspect it is pretty weak.

    Dems high and low along with the liberal media have pushed rumors of new "bombshell" information every couple months for a year and a half, trying to delegitimize the Trump presidency. And most of the liberal media have given countless on-air hours to Dems and their proxie pundits pushing the same fraud. It has been almost non-stop for a year and a half. With NO evidence offered.
    I don't see a lot of difference between that and the pressure on Obama and Clinton from the right. We had 8 years of it pretty solid. I don't see why we'd expect different with Trump. And again, I don't see the news making specific claims, they report the claims that others make.

    So the headline for this thread doesn't say that Dems started the investigation, or are leading it in any official way, but rather that they are masters of the fraudulent spin still being perpetrated against the American public.
    I don't see anything too exciting in that claim. The Republicans also have lots of BS spin on this that and the other topic. I don't see one worse or better than the other in that regard. Which is not to say you are wrong, just that it's not all that unusual for political parties to spin hard and fast to attack their political opponents. They are supposed to be bias and confrontational.

    I am more concerned about media making blatantly false claims or sharing blatantly false information. That's very problematic to me. Bias I can handle, but false claims I don't like at all.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  17. #17
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I am more concerned about media making blatantly false claims or sharing blatantly false information. That's very problematic to me. Bias I can handle, but false claims I don't like at all.
    But Sig, when bias becomes so all-consuming that virtually all the selected news reports and guest opinions are in line with that bias, it becomes a blatantly false representation of what is happening in politics and the nation. Constantly cherry picking news stories to fit a preconceived plan is a way to misinform the public on the larger reality. All of those slanted and stacked deck news stories collectively become a form of fake news.

    A Democrat voter writes today in The Federalist:

    "The Democrats and their supportive media outlets (CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times) have been saying for a year that Trump and his campaign likely colluded with the Russians to win the 2016 election, that Special Counsel Robert Mueller will eventually find proof of it, and that Trump will, as a result, get impeached...

    ...I’m a Democrat, and it would be easier to accept my side’s version of unfolding events. It would certainly make my life easier when talking with my liberal friends. But facts are pesky things, and I’ve become increasingly aggravated by my own side. It seems the desire to win the 2016 election and Trump hatred has not only warped the Democratic political and media establishments, but exposed them for what they are.

    Yes, Trump is intemperate, narcissistic, and the most unconventional president ever. But it appears that his opponents in our political and media establishments are far worse: they wanted to subvert democracy to save it from Trump; they wanted to thwart the will of Trump’s 63 million voters and not just undermine his presidency, but to concoct an investigation to impeach him and get him out of office.

    Looked at this way, it appears that Trump’s election is vindicated for many reasons: There appears to be a deep state in this country comprising both Republicans and Democrats, which will not abide an outsider president.

    This Is a Horrible Look for Democrats

    Meanwhile, my fellow Democrats aren’t in a good spot: They are increasingly becoming the kind of low-information voters they despise and think are only on the other side. For instance, a 2017 poll showed that a majority of Democrats (52 percent) believed Russia tampered with vote tallies in the 2016 election to help elect Trump, despite no evidence. That is akin to 69 percent of Americans believing in September 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

    Further, many of my Democratic friends are in the dark about many of the smaller events and facts surrounding the Mueller investigation. They don’t know, for instance, that a federal judge, T. S. Ellis, rebuked Mueller for trying to target Trump. They don’t know that one of the Russian companies Mueller indicted for tampering in the 2016 election, Concord Catering, didn’t exist at the time of the election, and that when they showed up in court to contest the charges, Mueller was unprepared to proceed with the case.

    This isn’t entirely ordinary Democrats’ fault, but that of the legacy media outlets they rely on for their news and analysis, which have let their audiences down completely. These media outlets (CNN, ABC, NBC, The New York Times, etc.) have devoted little or no time to many of the stories that “help” Trump or fail to advance the Russia collusion narrative. For instance, ABC, CBS, and NBC together spent a total of just 153 seconds covering Ellis’s rebuke of Mueller.

    This Is Not Just a Media Problem

    There is only one word to describe CNN and MSNBC’s coverage in the last year and half: grotesque. They’ve gone so over-the-top with their anti-Trump coverage, so lacking in self-awareness, that even criticizing them seems like a waste of time."...

    http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/...-scares-trump/
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #18
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Evensaul

    I suppose it's a perception thing on my part. The way I consume the news is either to listen to NPR (which I have not done recently) or to use a news aggregator that offers me a bunch of articles on a given topic.

    I read articles from all those sources, but I don't go to their home pages to get my news. So if they are selling a particular narrative via coverage, I don't really see it because I'm only reading individual articles. The articles themselves are usually fine. The headlines can be BS, but the articles tend to give you the facts as they are available, who said what, and just how well established said claims are. I mostly ignore editorials unless they have something really interesting to say. Usually I just want to know what is claimed and I'll make my own conclusions.

    So I decided to visit each of those home pages CNN ABC NBC and NYT to see what I think...

    CNN - Definitely has a liberal narrative drive going on - lots of focus on trump criticism

    ABC News - I found it to be pretty generic, one headline about Trump, the rest pretty normal sorts of news coverage

    NBC News - Their front page didn't have a strong narrative, pretty good mix of stories including ones of conservative interest and few judgemental headlines

    New York Times - Kind of a mixed bag, were I not trying to find a narrative, I wouldn't see one, partly because the page is such a hodgepodge. The editorials are very anti trump, the news stories are a mix, though a heavier political focus than ABC and NBC. It's definatlely liberal leaning, but its also got a lot of just plain generic news stuff on it.

    And for fun...

    Fox News - Definitely has a conservative narrative for pro trump here. A much nicer site than its rivals though, easy to read. I'd say it's the flip side of the CNN site in terms of bias.

    NPR US and World news page - Also a nice easy to read page. Leads with a potentally Trump critical narative post (with a very neutral headline) but has neutral Trump and pro Trump stories in the feed. A lot more world events news. Definately the best of this lot by a long stretch.


    So I'd say CNN and Fox are two sides of a coin, strongly appealing to a political faction. ABC and NBC are walking a pretty generic corporate media line. NYT shows a strong liberal bent in opinion but seems to try and play it straight on story selection, but man do they need a new web designer! And if you are smart, start with NPR because they seem to actually be trying to bring people a balance of stories about what is happening beyond the american info bubble.

    I think there is a perspective thing going on. If you take Fox news as a baselie, then ABC and NBC are going to look really bias to you because they are not showing you a conservitive bias. But taking them in spectrum, NBC and ABC are pretty middle of the road, slight left bent but not a bery hard narative one like CNN or Fox who seem pretty commited to a political narative. NYT is definately left. NPR comes out to me as the most even handed, but it does have a high-brow skew on the stoires offerd (which appeals to me as I could give a rats ass asbout celebrities or hot TV shows etc...)
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #19
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    In this thread I will be looking for evidence that Trump colluded with Russia to illegally steal the 2016 presidential election, as Democrats and the liberal media have been claiming for more than a year.

    Anyone?

    Anyone?

    There is no evidence.
    This seems to be engaging in the argument from ignorance fallacy.

    You can't use your lack of knowledge of evidence as the basis for your claim that there is no evidence.

    Obviously the Mueller investigation is keeping a lot of what it knows secret. So whether they have, or in the future will have, strong evidence of Trump colluding with Russia is simply not known by common people like you and me.

    So the fact is you don't know if there's evidence or not. If you are going to claim that you do know there is no evidence, you will need to support that assertion.

    ---------------------------

    And beyond that, even if when all is said and done, it turns out that Trump did not collude, it's plainly ridiculous to say that the Russia investigation is a "made up nonsense investigation" cooked up by the Democrats. It's pretty much the consensus of the US Intelligence community that Russia did interfere with our election which is a serious issue and should be investigated. Do you disagree with me on that?
    Last edited by mican333; May 24th, 2018 at 03:33 PM.

  20. #20
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    Re: Democrats - masters of the made up nonsense investigation - RussiaGate

    Okay nitpicker Mican, the Democrats and media who promote the idea of Trump-Russia collusion have offered no evidence that it is true.

    If an atheist says there is no evidence that God exists, is that also an argument from ignorance fallacy? Or do you have a special pleading ready for that argument?


    And you are offering a straw man, because I didn't say the investigation is nonsense, or that Democrats started it or officially run it. I'm saying the claim of Trump-Russia collusion is made up nonsense. By Dems and the media. With no evidence. Get that? If you don't understand the diff, then I don't really care to discuss it further with you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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