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  1. #1
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    Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    A protected group or protected class is a group of people qualified for special protection by a law, policy, or similar authority. In the United States, the term is frequently used in connection with employees and employment.

    Where discrimination on the basis of protected group status is concerned, a single act of discrimination may be based on membership in more than one protected group. For example, discrimination based on antisemitism may relate to religion, national origin, or both; discrimination against a pregnant woman might be based on sex, marital status, or both.[1]

    U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information (added in 2008). Many state laws also give certain protected groups special protection against harassment and discrimination, as do many employer policies. Although it is not required by federal law, employer policies may also protect employees from harassment or discrimination based on marital status or sexual orientation. The following characteristics are "protected" by United States federal anti-discrimination law:

    Race – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Religion – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    National origin – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Age (40 and over) – Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
    Sex – Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
    The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission interprets 'sex' to include discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity[2]
    Pregnancy – Pregnancy Discrimination Act
    Citizenship – Immigration Reform and Control Act
    Familial status – Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
    Disability status – Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
    Veteran status – Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
    Genetic information – Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group

    Some individual states have added protections against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity and perhaps other characteristics.

    So the question for this thread is: Should federal law protecting classes of people against discrimination in employment be expanded and, if so, to cover which additional groups? Or should federal law remain as-is? Or should the list of protected classes be pared down in some way?

    I'm thinking that employment should also not be denied on the basis of political ideology, alcoholism, low IQ, natural body odor and flatulence, because those are all immutable characteristics of an individual.
    Last edited by evensaul; May 26th, 2018 at 12:41 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    The root of all this is the American egalitarian principle of equality under the law and by extension of that, equality within society.

    The legal principle behind these laws is that the government has an obligation to serve the public in protecting them from significant harm. Civil rights legislation was done in the face of wanton discrimination following a long period of legal discrimination. Both race and gender have been codified by US law as unequal for a good long time, despite the rhetoric of the founding fathers and our foundational documents.

    We have gone somewhat beyond that however so I don't know hos justified such federal regulations really are if there isn't a history of legal discrimination in law. If it is merely widespread social bias, then I think that gives less standing, and if it is relatively narrow social bias, even less so.

    The social agenda is to have people treated without significant prejidice in the wider marketplace. And in a country so defined by the ethos of capitalism and the market, and steeped int he idea of egalitarianism, I think it makes sense we would seek to reduce or eliminate bigotry in marketplace transactions, especially those as essential as work contracts.

    I think it is a well intentioned goal, but I'm not convinced federal regulation is the appropriate vehicle for it. State legislation is better, but ultimately, social and market enforcement is probably the most effective and appropriate remedy for more edge case discrimination.

    I fully support race and sex as they were so badly enforced by law for so long. I support the others in the sense that I think they deserve equal treatment, but I tend not to actually favor such laws at the federal level on principle, even if I do support them from an ethical standpoint. I'm just a bit reluctant to turn all my ethical principles into law.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The social agenda is to have people treated without significant prejidice in the wider marketplace. And in a country so defined by the ethos of capitalism and the market, and steeped int he idea of egalitarianism, I think it makes sense we would seek to reduce or eliminate bigotry in marketplace transactions, especially those as essential as work contracts.

    I think it is a well intentioned goal, but I'm not convinced federal regulation is the appropriate vehicle for it. State legislation is better, but ultimately, social and market enforcement is probably the most effective and appropriate remedy for more edge case discrimination.

    I fully support race and sex as they were so badly enforced by law for so long. I support the others in the sense that I think they deserve equal treatment, but I tend not to actually favor such laws at the federal level on principle, even if I do support them from an ethical standpoint. I'm just a bit reluctant to turn all my ethical principles into law.
    Where would you place sexual orientation and gender identity in all of that? Are they worthy of federal protection, state protection, or "social and market enforcement" (which I don't understand)?
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    [QUOTE=Sigfried;560025}I fully support race and sex as they were so badly enforced by law for so long. I support the others in the sense that I think they deserve equal treatment, but I tend not to actually favor such laws at the federal level on principle, even if I do support them from an ethical standpoint. I'm just a bit reluctant to turn all my ethical principles into law.[/QUOTE]

    Assuming one agrees that every single American should have such protections, then a federal law definitely makes sense.

    As a scenario, if we left it to the states and one of the states decides that they won't protect blacks from being fired just for being black (and if was agreed that such a policy cannot stand) then the state would have to be overruled by a higher authority which in this situation would have to be federal government.

    ---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Where would you place sexual orientation and gender identity in all of that? Are they worthy of federal protection, state protection, or "social and market enforcement" (which I don't understand)?
    Of course they should receive protection. If gays can't find a job because they are gay, then they will have a harder time surviving within our society than a straight person.

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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Assuming one agrees that every single American should have such protections, then a federal law definitely makes sense.

    As a scenario, if we left it to the states and one of the states decides that they won't protect blacks from being fired just for being black (and if was agreed that such a policy cannot stand) then the state would have to be overruled by a higher authority which in this situation would have to be federal government.
    It's a question of what federal authority they are claiming such legislation under. From a legal standpoint, the feds can't simply make any law they like, it has to fall under the implicit or explicit powers granted to congress. The states have a much wider latitude. So long as they are not violating the federal or state constitution, they can make just about any law they like.

    ---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Where would you place sexual orientation and gender identity in all of that? Are they worthy of federal protection, state protection, or "social and market enforcement" (which I don't understand)?
    It's well-intentioned, aka I don't think it is ethical or right to discriminate in the market against someone for those reasons. That said, I think it has to be shown to be a widespread problem in order to justify federal legislation from a legal perspective.

    I'm happy we have such laws, I'm not entirely sure they are legally justified.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    To the extent that laws should exist specifically to protect specific minority groups, I think it is hard to say. I'd want to know what it is the specific goal the law is attempting to achieve. I'd want to know if there is a criterion such that the law is deemed no longer needed and whether there is a mechanism to sunset the law when that criterion is met. I certainly think it is worth having a conversation about whether a specific law is needed to protect some minority group. I'd also want to know how intrusive the proposed law may be. Every law has a trade-off where we agree to trade away some liberty or other value in exchange for something we feel is more important. Laws opposing murder clearly impeded on my right to take someone's life, but we probably all agree that the liberty gained from those who may not be murdered is a worthwhile trade. So, I'd want to know what is the cost of another law to protect the targeted minority group. As it is, at least within the confines of this discussion, I have not heard much discussion regarding any of these things.

    We all can agree that discrimination probably exists. That's an easy bar to reach. We have not really grappled with the question of how much a specifically proposed law will actually solve the problem. Nor have we really grappled with the problem of cost. And if we are not able to be specific about the law being proposed, meaning it is largely hypothetical, then how can we really have a conversation about it at all? A hypothetical law can only have hypothetical costs and benefits and we can set them subjectively and make them whatever fits our argument best. How helpful is that?

    Let me go a little deeper. In the post-antebellum south, where men were rather suddenly freed from bondage and where the structures of control, particularly in the south, continued to exist, it seems rather obvious we needed laws to explicitly undo those structures and to provide some amount of guidance to the general public on how to recognize people as complete citizens with equal rights. The cost was high, but the benefits were clearly worth the cost. If one criticism could be made, there was never a criterion established which we could use to determine that these laws were no longer needed. So, rather than the laws being allowed to end and giving everyone equal standing, promoting a sort of equilibrium, we expanded on these laws, adding more groups. Even if you don't think we'd have ever met the criterion should it have been established, it would at least offer a tangible goal. Imagine running a race, marathon, and having no idea how far you'd run nor how far you have left to go. Eventually, you'd stop. You'd quit. Maybe even just a few minutes from the end line.

    So, I think simple arguments like, such laws take away freedoms or conversely, what if society is discriminatory; are ideological arguments, but aren't, in any way, reasonable for a meaningful and thoughtful discussion.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Assuming one agrees that every single American should have such protections, then a federal law definitely makes sense.
    Lookism is discriminatory treatment toward people considered physically unattractive; mainly in the workplace but also in social settings.[1] While not classified in the same way as racial, cultural, sexual discrimination, "lookism" is widespread and affects how people are perceived as well as affecting their opportunities in terms of romantic relationships, job opportunities, etc... According to Nancy Etcoff, a psychologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, "we face a world where lookism is one of the most pervasive but denied prejudices".[12] Referring to several studies, Angela Stalcup writes that "The evidence clearly indicates that not only is there a premium for prettiness in Western culture, there is also penalty for plainness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism

    Should ugly be a protected class?
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Lookism is discriminatory treatment toward people considered physically unattractive; mainly in the workplace but also in social settings.[1] While not classified in the same way as racial, cultural, sexual discrimination, "lookism" is widespread and affects how people are perceived as well as affecting their opportunities in terms of romantic relationships, job opportunities, etc... According to Nancy Etcoff, a psychologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, "we face a world where lookism is one of the most pervasive but denied prejudices".[12] Referring to several studies, Angela Stalcup writes that "The evidence clearly indicates that not only is there a premium for prettiness in Western culture, there is also penalty for plainness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism

    Should ugly be a protected class?
    First off, there are no protected classes.

    Regarding race, the rule is not that one cannot discriminate against blacks. The rule is that one cannot discriminate against people based on race. So while that rule does mean that one cannot refuse to serve someone because he's black, it also means that one cannot refuse to serve someone because he's white, asian, latino, native American and so on. So basically the law protects everyone equally and therefore there are no protected classes that one person belongs to but another person does not. As an analogy, the fact that it's illegal to kill a black person does not make blacks a protected class because the law that protects blacks from murder protects non-blacks as well.

    So the question should be whether comeliness should join race and gender and sexual orientation as something that one cannot refuse service based on. Since that is not part of my argument, I currently have no position on that. If you want to make an argument regarding whether comeliness should be included, go ahead.
    Last edited by mican333; Yesterday at 09:03 AM.

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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The root of all this is the American egalitarian principle of equality under the law and by extension of that, equality within society.

    The legal principle behind these laws is that the government has an obligation to serve the public in protecting them from significant harm. Civil rights legislation was done in the face of wanton discrimination following a long period of legal discrimination. Both race and gender have been codified by US law as unequal for a good long time, despite the rhetoric of the founding fathers and our foundational documents.

    We have gone somewhat beyond that however so I don't know hos justified such federal regulations really are if there isn't a history of legal discrimination in law. If it is merely widespread social bias, then I think that gives less standing, and if it is relatively narrow social bias, even less so.

    The social agenda is to have people treated without significant prejidice in the wider marketplace. And in a country so defined by the ethos of capitalism and the market, and steeped int he idea of egalitarianism, I think it makes sense we would seek to reduce or eliminate bigotry in marketplace transactions, especially those as essential as work contracts.

    I think it is a well intentioned goal, but I'm not convinced federal regulation is the appropriate vehicle for it. State legislation is better, but ultimately, social and market enforcement is probably the most effective and appropriate remedy for more edge case discrimination.

    I fully support race and sex as they were so badly enforced by law for so long. I support the others in the sense that I think they deserve equal treatment, but I tend not to actually favor such laws at the federal level on principle, even if I do support them from an ethical standpoint. I'm just a bit reluctant to turn all my ethical principles into law.
    Should we have laws which are rooted to a social agenda? It sounds like you are not entirely sure and I don't blame you. Here is where I think your argument needs more thought. You and I agree that the U.S. was founded on the concept of egalitarianism. All men are created equal. Justice. These are all concepts that the American legal system are based upon. However, how much intent was there in the government actively enforcing these? Consider that the U.S. federal government was created to prevent some malevolent, horrible, evil person from mucking things up. The system, the bicameral legislature, the separation of powers, check and balances were all designed to limit the ability of a small group of people from ruining the whole experiment. So, when you comment on actions which are based on a social agenda, if you've been paying attention to world history, your ears should perking up and hair should standing on end.

    Having good intentions is nice, but we've already established that our government wasn't designed to assume good intentions. You can be damn well sure that, at some point in the future, someone with very bad intentions will come along and use all the tools used to promote the well-intentioned social agenda. Marx may have had good intentions, but Stalin and Lenin certainly didn't. Both used the idea of egalitarianism as justification to kill millions. And if you think we are so much better and nothing like that could happen in the U.S., just keep creating the kinds of openings tyrants have always used to form revolutions and impose changes. And to me, these laws, as well-meaning as they may seem to be, by there open-ended nature and lack of defining problem, are just massive black holes waiting to be exploited.

    You support sex and race anti-discrimination laws, but consider the following: According to the progressive left, sex is completely subjective. What do you think bad actors can do with that? Well, we've seen what they are doing. They are using it to dictate (legislate) which ideas are publicly acceptable. It isn't merely to ensure everyone has some sort of access to the marketplace of things. It is being used to suppress the conscientiousness of others. If a baker cannot choose to refuse to be part of a ceremony he feels is immoral or a group which opposes abortion is compelled by law to advertise for abortion, we can certainly see where these sorts of laws are headed and really, the true intention of the people behind these laws.

    I say all this and understand you and I probably are similarly positioned to mistrust laws like these. I think, though, you may be a bit more accepting of them than I am and I think you should trust your instincts here and not be swayed by your impulse towards moderation.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And to me, these laws, as well-meaning as they may seem to be, by there open-ended nature and lack of defining problem, are just massive black holes waiting to be exploited.
    And I disagree on that. From my perspective, they are not open-ended and the restrictions are quite specific and I've seen no supported position that it will lead to anything else in particular. Just positing a slippery slope does not support that one exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You support sex and race anti-discrimination laws, but consider the following: According to the progressive left, sex is completely subjective. What do you think bad actors can do with that? Well, we've seen what they are doing. They are using it to dictate (legislate) which ideas are publicly acceptable.
    I've seen no such thing. Please support this assertion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It isn't merely to ensure everyone has some sort of access to the marketplace of things. It is being used to suppress the conscientiousness of others.
    Again, I disagree so please support this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If a baker cannot choose to refuse to be part of a ceremony he feels is immoral or a group which opposes abortion is compelled by law to advertise for abortion, we can certainly see where these sorts of laws are headed and really, the true intention of the people behind these laws.
    No baker is forced to be part of a ceremony unless one takes a really, really, really broad interpretation of what level of involvement qualifies as being "part of a ceremony". There has been no valid legal case that argues that the baker who is baking a cake is a participant in the ceremony.

    And to say the intention is something other than the stated intention of the laws likewise requires support. What you are forwarding sounds like a conspiracy theory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think, though, you may be a bit more accepting of them than I am and I think you should trust your instincts here and not be swayed by your impulse towards moderation.
    I think such laws are in place to ensure that people have equal access to the marketplace and making sure that people are treated equally regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation and I've seen no real evidence that the agenda is something other than that. If you are going to argue that there is a different agenda, please support that.

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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I disagree on that. From my perspective, they are not open-ended and the restrictions are quite specific and I've seen no supported position that it will lead to anything else in particular. Just positing a slippery slope does not support that one exists.
    Just recently, the a U.S. court has decided to include gender identity within the scope of the equal rights amendment even though the law makes no mention of identity. In fact, when the law was created, it'd be hard to imagine that Congress intended it to be included.

    http://www.rutgerspolicyjournal.org/...tection-clause
    "Evancho and Johston begin to illustrate how the Third Circuit may decide a Fourteenth Amendment claim brought by a transgender student. In Evancho the students in question succeeded by presenting sufficient evidence of an Equal Protection violation and the Western District of Pennsylvania found that “discrimination based on transgender status in these circumstances is essentially the epitome of discrimination based on gender nonconformity, making differentiation based on transgender status akin to discrimination based on sex for these purposes”[26], whereas two years earlier this decision may have fallen more in line with Johnston. [27] In Johnston the Western District of Pennsylvania found that both the Third Circuit and the Supreme Court of the United States have yet to recognize transgender as a “suspect classification” under the Equal Protection Clause and therefore applied the rational basis standard. The future of transgender students’ bathroom rights is still murky and unclear throughout the nation, however New Jersey and the Western District of Pennsylvania are trending towards granting transgender students’ the right to choose the bathroom which conforms with their identity, be it through state legislation, such as New Jersey, or case law, such as in the Western District of Pennsylvania."

    So, no, the rules are not specific, are open to interpretation, and easily expanded based on the ideological view of the court.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I've seen no such thing. Please support this assertion.
    Of course, the progressive left views gender to be subjective. This is why New York now has 31 different categories to describe gender and the list is growing.
    http://dailycaller.com/2016/05/24/ne...er-identities/


    Facebook has over 50.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-e...-options-means


    Obviously, these are not based on some sort of objective science. The labels, themselves are based on an individual's self-identification. That is the very definition of subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, I disagree so please support this.
    I'd have to know why you disagree here. It isn't clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No baker is forced to be part of a ceremony unless one takes a really, really, really broad interpretation of what level of involvement qualifies as being "part of a ceremony". There has been no valid legal case that argues that the baker who is baking a cake is a participant in the ceremony.
    Fair enough. Let's allow that the baker isn't expressly being forced to be part of a ceremony. However, the baker in the example is being compelled to use his art/skills to create a message which is antagonistic to his conscientious beliefs. It should be noted that the case recently decided by the Supreme Court noted that the city allowed bakers to refuse service for messages that were anti-gay. The point is not whether he is being made to participate in a ceremony. The point is whether the laws we are discussing may be used to compel individuals to certain forms of speech. Clearly, that is one way these laws are being used. That isn't even up for debate as I believe your claim is that forcing the baker to write a message which is against his beliefs is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And to say the intention is something other than the stated intention of the laws likewise requires support. What you are forwarding sounds like a conspiracy theory.
    Not a conspiracy theory at all. We have seen the 14th amendment, originally intended solely to ensure blacks post-civil war were considered citizens, was expanded by the courts, not Congress, to include gender, and now sexual identity. And seeing as how those pushing for gender identity to be included don't even believe that gender identity is an objective truth, but based on subjective feelings, then there is no other explanation than to acknowledge these laws are being hijacked by the progressive left which is an ideology based on post-modernism and neo-Marxism.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I think such laws are in place to ensure that people have equal access to the marketplace and making sure that people are treated equally regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation and I've seen no real evidence that the agenda is something other than that. If you are going to argue that there is a different agenda, please support that.
    Sure. I supported my argument above. If you disagree, then please help us understand gender. There isn't a legal definition for transgender, so explain how this identity can be protected by the law. As a society, and this is supported by the New York and Facebook examples above, we don't even agree on the basis for explaining non-binary gender types. It is a figment of the progressive-lefts imagination and supports their deconstructionist views. This is an ideological argument which they are trying to code into law. In other words, they are trying to make their ideological view into law. In the example of the baker, he was not denying service to gay people, or women, or anyone else. He simply refused to use his trade to convey a message which went against his conscience. Anti-abortion centers in CA are being required to post info to people on how to obtain an abortion. Again, the laws are being written to enforce an ideological view such that people aren't merely prevented from using certain words or performing some action, but are being compelled to say things. This isn't merely a slippery slope I am presenting because the examples already exist.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
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    Has this happened to you?
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Has this happened to you?
    LOL!. I should have expected that.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    I think such laws inherently violate the freedoms to associate. While it is nice and good to not discriminate for stupid reasons it is ultimately the job of the church and not the state to effect people's moral choices like these. It also isn't effective as long as people put a little thought into their actions. Like, you can in fact discriminate based on sex, if you call then models. As it is a motivation that is being legislated against, it can be impossible to police, and is impossible to actually stop in by the state.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think such laws inherently violate the freedoms to associate. While it is nice and good to not discriminate for stupid reasons it is ultimately the job of the church and not the state to effect people's moral choices like these. It also isn't effective as long as people put a little thought into their actions. Like, you can in fact discriminate based on sex, if you call then models. As it is a motivation that is being legislated against, it can be impossible to police, and is impossible to actually stop in by the state.
    What happens, though, when your religious institutions fail to do so? Are complicit. Or worse yet, their beliefs are used to support such practices?

    As for your example, the law makes provisions for "reasonable accommodations". Yes, you're not going to have a fat, bald, hairy guy as a waitress at Hooters, nor would you have a non-endowed female. But that doesn't preclude them from working in the kitchen, as management, or in the corporate office.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think such laws inherently violate the freedoms to associate. While it is nice and good to not discriminate for stupid reasons it is ultimately the job of the church and not the state to effect people's moral choices like these.
    But I assume you agree that society does have a responsibility to ensure that societal rules do correspond to obviously correct morals.

    For example, regardless of where we get the moral edict "don't murder", it is society that has a responsibility to inhibit murder and punish those who murder innocent people.

    And the same principle applies to economic laws. For example, we have laws against fraud so businesses can't steal from each other.

    And assuming that one agrees that amongst our economic laws, we SHOULD have laws against denying access to the market based on race or gender (and so on), then society should have laws against certain kinds of discrimination.

    ---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So when you asked, as opposed to making a counter argument, what happens when the church fails it job. The answer is that society is screwed, because there is no other mechanism capable of addressing that. Just like parents are the only mechanism capable of raising children en mass, and the state is completely inadiquite to take parents place if they fail as an institution.
    People can certainly address moral issues without a church. As far as I know, there is no significant difference in the morality of people who do and don't go to church and countries that have had a significant decrease in religious participation (like many European countries) aren't any worse off morally.

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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think such laws inherently violate the freedoms to associate. While it is nice and good to not discriminate for stupid reasons it is ultimately the job of the church and not the state to effect people's moral choices like these. It also isn't effective as long as people put a little thought into their actions. Like, you can in fact discriminate based on sex, if you call then models. As it is a motivation that is being legislated against, it can be impossible to police, and is impossible to actually stop in by the state.
    Considering there are a good number of claims and judgements, I would not say it is impossible to police. It is impossible to police it 100%, but that is true of nearly every crime in the books.

    It does impinge on freedom of association to some small degree, though I think it leaves that right mostly intact and is justified by a long history of laws specifically designed to prevent such freedoms in a much more egregious way. When you commit a crime, you loose some your rights, and I think that is just. America commited the moral crime of saying that some people were property, and then that some people were not full people in the eyes of the law. Now, we must limit ourselves to some small degree by not allowing any such discrimination in our commercial markets. That seems rather just to me.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    What happens is society is screwed. It is just like me saying. He gives is not equipped nor is it it'sjob to raise kids, that is the job of parents.. and you respond, what happens when your precious family unit fails or is complicated in raising children.. then what. See that objection doesn't change the gov proper roll or better equipped it to do what it can't do.

    Your Hooters example doesn't address my point.
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Your Hooters example doesn't address my point.

    It addresses your model example perfectly. What else should I address, your last post is a bit muddled. Could you explain it a little better for me?
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    Re: Protected Classes: Expand, Reduce or Maintain?

    My point was that you can still descriminate if you put some thought into it. I appealed to basically the Hooters example. You responded by repeating the example and calling it reasonable. However that doesn't address my point that people can discriminate if they put a little thought into it and don't come out and explicitly stating so as to be a clear indication of discrimination.
    My point is the states inability to effect motive. That is the roll of the church. Not a church or a religion, but religion in general.
    So when you asked, as opposed to making a counter argument, what happens when the church fails it job. The answer is that society is screwed, because there is no other mechanism capable of addressing that. Just like parents are the only mechanism capable of raising children en mass, and the state is completely inadiquite to take parents place if they fail as an institution. So like the answer to your question as it applies equally here. If they fail society is screwed.
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