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  1. #21
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Support or it will be considered retracted that we have an illegal immigration problem and that that problem is happening at the border with Mexico.
    Legal immigrants receive a medical examination to prevent those with disease from infecting American citizens. Illegal aliens entering the country without this examination pose a risk to the health of Americans. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowb...rants-refugees

    Legal immigrants undergo criminal background checks. Illegal immigrants pose a criminal risk to American citizens because they do not undergo a background check. https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/H...-Chapter2.html

    Low-skilled American workers must compete for jobs against an estimated 8 million illegal immigrants in the US workforce. This causes unnecessary high unemployment for Americans, especially for African-American workers who are unskilled. https://cis.org/Testimony/Illegal-Im...-Black-Workers

    Those three are just the tip of the support iceberg.

    And although I didn't specify "the border with Mexico" as the area of illegal entry we should secure, here is some data: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
    Last edited by evensaul; June 30th, 2018 at 08:21 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Good, your own support classifies those seeking asylum as "inadmissables" and doesn't count them as attempting to enter the country illegally. The important number is the number of apprehensions which looks like it averages about 350,000. Has that number changed over time?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    I'm looking to debate someone in favor of open borders, Cowboy. If that's not you, or you're not willing to make a case for it, then I'm done with you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #24
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    So you're not arguing for increasing border security rather just that the open borders movement is misguided.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Either crossing the border illegally is a crime or it isn't. If you don't want it to be crime, write your Congressman and support open borders. It isn't like those crossing illegally carry id cards which say things like "hard working", "gang member", "looking for free health care", etc. They cross the border and when caught, under catch and release, they almost never showed up to their immigration hearings and then 10 years later, people are crying that we can't deport them now because they have been here so long. It is just a completely corrupt system. I suppose my analogy would be better if I said would you rather your house have overpriced iron walls or no walls. You're right, the front door is absolutely wonderful. Alarm. Peephole. And for those who choose to ring the bell and come through the front door, all is well. However, anyone with half a bit of sense just avoids the door and walks through the empty space where we should have walls.
    With any and every law, you have to balance the value of enforcment agaisnt the cost of enforcement. That is what I've been saying all along here. You have yet to respond to that but to say that we shouldn't have open borders. Anything we do needs to have a relative cost advantage. Yes, problems come from illegal imigration, but also there are benefits to immigration (of any sort). By creating a system that is attractive to immigrant workers and is legal, you funnel the valuable people into that channel and allow for less costly enforcement against those who could never qualify. And instead of building walls, you pursue cheaper and more effective options. Most illegal imigrants dont cross the southern border, they come in legally and then just don't leave. If you want to deal with the bulk of those you need a better internal system for identifying citizens, and that means biting the bullet on some kind of national ID. Which has all kinds of other benefits. Resistance to it is largely from the same camp that wants to erect walls. Its stupid.

    I'm for more open borders, but not entirely open borders, I'm not an anarchist, clearly. But I don't want to waste money on destructive things like walls when I could instead make something constructive.

    Again, and you simply refuse to acknowledge this point, all the other means of controlling immigration we agree upon aren't happening.
    I am not ignoring that point, its just a terrible argument. Again its like saying that I should castrate my kids because itz the only way for them to stop having sex. How about I just let them have some sex instead? If that''s the solution, I'll stick with the original problem. Other solutions that are less stupid and destrictive are fine, but that one isn't. So I'm not supporting it even if other solutions are ignored.

    So... we either get a wall or more of the same.
    I'd much perefer more of the same.

    And living in CA, watching tax money wasted on poverty and crime, and drugs, much of it (not all of it), a result of our illegal immigration problem and watching the quality of life decrease for middle-class people who get the brunt of the policy stick, I'd like this issue dealt with in any way possible. I am simply being pragmatic. If our corrupt, whoring politicians stepped up and chose to fix the problem, it could probably be done without a wall.
    I've lived in So-Cal for the last 8 months, seems pretty nice and peaceful here. This part of the country does not have an especially high crime rate. Its a little higher than the national average, but not by a lot. Many cities with far fewer illegal imigrants have much higher crime rates. There is no real crisis in southern california. In fact crime rates are at historic lows.

    http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3708

    Your assertions are just jinned up claims typeical of bigoted lines of argument the world over targeting anyone who isn't "like us" and blaming them for any and all social problems despite no real evidence they are having a significant impact. I'm not saying you are a bigot, but you are using their playbook here.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  6. #26
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    With any and every law, you have to balance the value of enforcment agaisnt the cost of enforcement. That is what I've been saying all along here. You have yet to respond to that but to say that we shouldn't have open borders. Anything we do needs to have a relative cost advantage. Yes, problems come from illegal imigration, but also there are benefits to immigration (of any sort). By creating a system that is attractive to immigrant workers and is legal, you funnel the valuable people into that channel and allow for less costly enforcement against those who could never qualify. And instead of building walls, you pursue cheaper and more effective options. Most illegal imigrants dont cross the southern border, they come in legally and then just don't leave. If you want to deal with the bulk of those you need a better internal system for identifying citizens, and that means biting the bullet on some kind of national ID. Which has all kinds of other benefits. Resistance to it is largely from the same camp that wants to erect walls. Its stupid.

    I'm for more open borders, but not entirely open borders, I'm not an anarchist, clearly. But I don't want to waste money on destructive things like walls when I could instead make something constructive.



    I am not ignoring that point, its just a terrible argument. Again its like saying that I should castrate my kids because itz the only way for them to stop having sex. How about I just let them have some sex instead? If that''s the solution, I'll stick with the original problem. Other solutions that are less stupid and destrictive are fine, but that one isn't. So I'm not supporting it even if other solutions are ignored.



    I'd much perefer more of the same.



    I've lived in So-Cal for the last 8 months, seems pretty nice and peaceful here. This part of the country does not have an especially high crime rate. Its a little higher than the national average, but not by a lot. Many cities with far fewer illegal imigrants have much higher crime rates. There is no real crisis in southern california. In fact crime rates are at historic lows.

    http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3708

    Your assertions are just jinned up claims typeical of bigoted lines of argument the world over targeting anyone who isn't "like us" and blaming them for any and all social problems despite no real evidence they are having a significant impact. I'm not saying you are a bigot, but you are using their playbook here.
    Your boiling down everything to crime. There are plenty of other factors. How about education? Where does CA rank. You don't think illegal immigration places a strain on limited education funding? How about traffic? You don't think illegal immigration places more strain on our roads? How about housing? We have a housing shortage and it is generally unaffordable. You don't think illegal immigration impacts this problem? I've lived in So CA for 40+ years. So, I've seen how it has actually changed and become a worse place to live.

    Why do 1/3 of welfare recipients live in CA?
    https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2015/04/19/...-boom-or-bust/

    We are near last in K-12 education
    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ings/education

    We have one of the highest tax rates in the U.S.
    https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips...axes/L6HPAVqSF

    Homelessness has skyrocketed
    http://www.politifact.com/california...kyrocketed-an/

    Funny thing immigration in general, but specifically we are discussing illegal immigration harms low income natives the most.
    https://cis.org/Report/Impact-Immigration-California

    The report also notes that
    "Immigrants as a group do not pay enough in taxes to cover their consumption of public services, though the size of the impact is undetermined and varies considerably by country of origin, education level, and admission category."
    This is an issue which we expect would be more true for illegal immigrants than other immigrants.

    I am not saying all these issues are magically solved by solving illegal immigration. I am saying illegal immigration negatively impacts all the issues I've noted above. As a CA resident I pay more in taxes and see less and less in return. I see roads crumbling and schools failing. I am asked to pay more, but the additional revenues aren't being used to fix these problems. They get used to set up special programs for illegal immigrants or diverted into more welfare programs. So, yes, it is negatively impacted our quality of life. It should also be noted that illegal immigration does not impact the people making the policies. They live in gated communities or areas which price immigrants, in general out of the market so they never actually encounter the issues middle and lower class CA's are told to deal with. Oh, and then when these points and issues are brought up, the R word or bigotry are trotted out like that is an actual response. Let's suppose I am an absolute bigot for the sake of argument. It does not actually rebut any point I've made. It does not matter which playbook the data comes from. Either they are facts or they are not. Argue the merits not the person.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  7. #27
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It's too simple. We already have locks on the door, they keep out most people who aren't determined. But when someone is very determined a lock is not much of an abstacle. Same as the border. So we have locks already, we installed some deadbolts, and we have an alarm company working for us. The border wall is like putting up barbed wire around your house, digging a moat and installing deadly dobermans. I'm not intersted in any of that.
    You probably would become interested, if your house was constantly being broken into, with your family attacked or your livelihood stolen. That is what is happening across on our southern border (of our collective house), and in much of the US to the victims of crime by illegal aliens, and to low skilled Americans unable to gain employment.

    And Democrats are basically saying that it is all okay with them. They want neither border enforcement nor internal apprehension and deportations of illegals. It's just unfathomable to me how anyone can agree with those positions, unless it is all about increasing votes for Democrats in the long run. That is the only thing that makes sense of it.
    Last edited by evensaul; July 6th, 2018 at 08:55 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #28
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    The most outrageous thing happening on the border, which in my opinion best exemplifies the gov failure to do it's most basic and fundamental job, is that drug cartells and gangs of Mexico are on invading our country and killing our citizens on the border. This should be completely unacceptable to any American and military force should be brought to bare on the problem. This horrible situation is only rivaled by American children being kidnapped and sold into sex slavery as a direct result of soft borders. That it is not part of the national discussion is an Injustice and a travesty to our nation.

    Secondarily, I don't see how the blanket argument for people coming to America is not also an argument for American invasion and control of that region. If Mexico is so bad, that it's citizens are compelled to break our laws to get in, then why should we not save all of them from their horrible country? Why should we have compassion on only the few who are driven away?
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  9. #29
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    My simple point is that you do keep it locked in a way that a mom with kid coming to your door can't just walk right in. Our country's border should have at least the same.
    Lofty goal also seen in the animal kingdom, where many animals mark their territory.

    However, by simplifying the issue to a do we enforce or not; black or white issue , you do not clarify the debate; you dumb it down.

    The answer always been to allocate reasonable ressources after a cost/benefit analysis. The US and for that matter, all countries in the world already do that.

    ---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Secondarily, I don't see how the blanket argument for people coming to America is not also an argument for American invasion and control of that region. If Mexico is so bad, that it's citizens are compelled to break our laws to get in, then why should we not save all of them from their horrible country? Why should we have compassion on only the few who are driven away?
    It's estimated that the declining number of Mexican migrating in the US illegally is about 100,000 per year (0,08% percent of the population)*
    Do you really think 99.9% of the population of Mexico will be thankful for the sudden invasion of Gringos onto their motherland?

    *The Center estimates that, since 2009, there has been an average of about 350,000 new unauthorized immigrants each year. Of these, about 100,000 are Mexican, a much smaller share than in the past. In the years leading up to the Great Recession, Mexicans represented about half of new unauthorized immigrants.
    Link

    Population of Mexico in 2016: 127 millions
    Last edited by Vandaler; July 9th, 2018 at 10:56 AM.
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  11. #30
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And Democrats are basically saying that it is all okay with them. They want neither border enforcement nor internal apprehension and deportations of illegals.
    Which elected Democrats are saying they don't want border enforcement, internal apprehension, or deportation of undocumented immigrants?
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  13. #31
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It's a simple question, and I'm seeking a debate about the larger picture, not every little detail of policies and enforcement measures. Should the United States have a secure border that prevents illegal immigration? Or should we have an open border that allows any who want to cross it come into our country?

    I believe we should have a secure border, with controlled and legal immigration, and those attempting illegal entry should be turned back.

    Is there someone who disagrees and wants to debate the issue?
    Let's try to cut away some of the chaff and see where we land.

    Do we want open borders or not?

    For open borders:
    I know we are kinda taught in school a one world gov't and such would eliminate wars, famine etc as without defense spending there would be enough money for social issues.
    What people don't think about is a world wide democracy would mean people in the US would live by a "world law" not US law. One would note American's are a minority on a world wide scale. India and China would rule the world like "Seattle" (the I5 corridor) does for Wash State.

    For controlled borders:
    I know the middle ground people "know better" than people that take a stance, however, I don't see a choice other than a felony (an offense resulting in arrest if caught) if you want a controlled border. You can't just write them a ticket and expect them to go back to their country and apply for legal citizenship. That is more than nave.

    Having said that, the "wall" is a stupid waste of money!

    Checking employers is good, but there is an illegal market that easily employs illegals so that will only get you so far.

  14. #32
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    The answer always been to allocate reasonable resources after a cost/benefit analysis. The US and for that matter, all countries in the world already do that.
    Let's round the cost of a secured border up to $20 billion. That would be a one-time expenditure equal to about two days of the annual federal budget. That isn't much in terms of relative cost, and I think there is a pretty large benefit. Project approved!

    p.s. Good to see you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #33
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    Re: Should the US have a Secure Border?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    It's estimated that the declining number of Mexican migrating in the US illegally is about 100,000 per year (0,08% percent of the population)*
    Do you really think 99.9% of the population of Mexico will be thankful for the sudden invasion of Gringos onto their motherland?
    I don't think that addresses my point at all. I mean, I get that there are reasons to not invade, I'm just saying that the stronger the argument is used that they are escaping from a hell hole to the land flowing with milk and honey.
    Then the stronger the argument TO invade and bring milk and honey to the barren, drugscapes of Mexico. .. or any other place that makes up the incoming naked masses.
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