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  1. #21
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Haven't followed the whole thread, but it does seem to me that Bernie sanders is significantly more a shift to the left, then Donald is to the right.
    So at least on some level I think a large shift to the left has been made then to the right. Though it doesn't appear that way on your nifty chart

    Now, I could be wrong, but isn't open socialism kinda an "extreme" left position, and he had at least a decent shot at winning the nomination (IE it isn't an insignificant minority).
    And while Trump ran as a republican, he hardly represents the kind of right that Regan was, and that is what I would consider a more "extreme" move to the right.

    so I think I see what he is talking about... That you don't makes me think i have one of the above wrong... what say you?
    I say you should probably go over the thread. The point I'm making is that, if you don't define something very well (in this case, "extreme"), then it's very hard to say something IS extreme. Of the criteria listed in the OP, all of it has been dealt with except for the Pew study, against which I offered a counter example, also from Pew Research, that strongly suggests that no one group of people "owns" the polarization problem as is claimed in the OP. The study I cited shows that the overall "distance" from political center is virtually the same for Republicans and Democrats. The only difference is that Democrats actually had travel further than Republicans already were from the center to get to as an "extreme" position as Republicans.

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  3. #22
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    I've been wanting to answer this thread, but also wanted to put some thought into it. The OP's main point is that Democrats are more extreme than Republicans (its also the title). As support, the OP offers up examples such as Bernie Sanders and others. I think the rebuttal was fairly obvious, put up some "extreme" players on the right side of the aisle. Now, its a numbers game and a game of gotcha at that. I also don't think the OP sets up the question in a very meaningful way. Extreme. What the heck does that mean anyhow. I see a chart introduced into the thread showing Republicans and Democrats are more entrenched in their positions than they were a decade ago, but it does not indicate that extreme is less controversial or more accepted. I also think, in the OP, some of the support suggested that the policy positions espoused by mainstream Democrats were extreme therefore, the Democrats must be increasingly extreme since they are voting for these people. Positions like universal healthcare or disbanding ICE fall into this category. Again, there are two relatively straightforward rebuttals to this. 1) The policies aren't extreme at all. Lacking a definition of extreme, this is a reasonable argument. 2) Even if the policies are extreme, Republicans have their own extreme policy positions. So, again we are left with bean counting and trying to measure things without knowing exactly what we are measuring.

    So, I think it probably would serve some purpose in this thread to actually define what is meant by extreme. I suppose this should probably be left to the OP to define, but I don't think my definition will be controversial and I'd expect most people will agree. Extreme, first of all shouldn't relate to actual policies. We cannot say disbanding ICE is extreme without knowing the motivation and really, the devil is in the details. If the proposal is to disband ICE and replace it with multiple agencies then you may wonder what it would be replaced by and would the replacement be more or less effective. And so on and so forth. I think, if we are discussing the parties and what entails their extremes, we want to examine the ideologies are the far right and the far left respective to each party.

    If we assume the GOP is the conservative party and its basic philosophy, ideology, if you wish, pertains to maintaining the current structures, invoking nationalism and loyalty, then the extreme position of such a set of philosophies is probably fascism. I mean, if we take the extreme of nationalism, structure and loyalty, you essentially would have some sort of fascist state. Right? So, that would be the extreme position of the GOP.

    On the other hand, the Democrats, liberal, probably look to higher levels of compassion and idealism with a concern on equality of outcome. Everyone can do anything if given the chance and the only way we know we have equality of opportunity is by having equality of outcome. So, for the liberal, the extreme position would be socialism.

    And for these definitions of extremism, tailored to each party, I think it fits reasonably well with reality. We do indeed see Democrats who either embrace socialism or, at least like to dance with it. On the other side, we do see Republican tendencies towards fascism. If Trump's nationalism does not make you pay attention a little, then you are naive or just need to read more history books. And I am not saying Trump is fascist nor that we are bordering on fascism, but if we are talking about extremes and policing our own, then, yeah, we should be interested in making sure Trump isn't stepping over the line. And that's a complex issue and beyond the scope of this debate so I don't want to go too far down that road. However, in general, the GOP does a pretty good job of drawing the line and they've made it pretty clear that fascism isn't ok. That doesn't mean they rebuke nationalism, of course. However, every nation needs some sort of nationalist principles. If you didn't have that you wouldn't have a nation. So, if you're a liberal, you want and need Republicans. You just don't want them crossing the line and implementing fascism. And, luckily, the Republican party, to some degree, has policed its own and you'd never see a national GOP candidate running on a fascist platform.

    On the other side, we need liberals too. The problem with capitalism is certainly that you'll always have some group of people who have nothing and will always have nothing. And, if the inequality gets too great then there is no reason not to overthrow the entire system. So, liberals keep capitalism in check in a manner of speaking. They look to open up the game, decrease inequality, spread the wealth, etc. However, there is an extreme position problem here too. The natural tendency of liberals is to overthrow the order. Upturn the hierarchies society needs to function. So, the extreme form of this is communism and this is where we get Marxism as the perceived pathway to the ultimate end of all the evil hierarchies.

    Just as fascism is evil and there is no doubt it is. Millions have died under fascist regimes. There should equally be no doubt about the evil of Marxism.

    So, if we are going to argue over which party has become more extreme, we'd want to examine each party as it relates to its extreme version of itself. I think I already noted that Trump certainly has increased the nationalist rhetoric from prior Republican administrations. I don't think we can say his views are fascist and we can definitely say he has not come out and endorsed fascism. Maybe one of our resident Trump-haters has a different take on this, but I suspect that the argument would be accusatory and light on actual facts. I am open to being wrong though.

    On the left side, though, I think it is interesting. Bernie Sanders and others have latched Democratic Socialism onto the Democrat party and it isn't clear that they received much, if any, push back. And, as far as I can tell, there isn't a significant difference between Democratic Socialism and Marxism. I believe Marx theorized that the people would rise against the bourgeiose and that he related this to a Democratic uprising. I can go point by point on how the two are basically one and the same, but here's the link to a website that purports to explain what Democratic Socialism is.
    https://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism

    So, going back to my original premise, we define extremism as it relates to the party and reaches a point where it is no longer desirable from a U.S. and Western point of view. I mean, if you have communism, you really don't have a U.S.A. anymore. So, if you have a group of people in the Democrat party openly advocating for socialism as a means to achieve communism, which Democratic Socialism is, and no one in the Democrat party is willing to say, no, that does not work for us, then I'd have to say, right now, the Democrats are playing with the margins and really, embracing an extreme and destructive politic.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  5. #23
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Fair enough. Of course, I'm not asking you to pretend anything. I'm just wondering what you want to get out of it except the whole "Get off my lawn!" cane-shaking sensation. If that's it, I get it. It can be cathartic to get stuff off your chest. No sarcasm implied or intended.
    Some of that. Unlike you, I can't discuss these topics at work. I'm the owner and many of our employees are liberal, so discussing politics would be a really bad idea.

    btw, I also started a thread taking issue with canned hunts and even deer hunting from a blind as legitimate sport. I think they are poor attempts at manhood. And another thread arguing we should not pledge allegiance to the flag. Those positions would probably be opposed by about 95% of Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    FACT: If nothing had happened in the last few years with regards to protected classed in the Obama era, the thread you're talking about would not exist. Surely you won't deny this. So it WAS disingenuous insofar that, ultimately, you were just grinding an axe against the left.
    Well, this is a natural but false assumption on your part. My arguments to include looks and height in anti-discrimination classes are sincere. And the impulse to start that thread was helping a blind woman through our application process a few weeks ago, and discussing potential accommodations with her. Unfortunately, I concluded there was no way to get even a 50% level of productivity from her compared to other employees doing the same job.

    But to the topic of this thread...


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If we assume the center of the chart is actual political center, where's there's no particular bias in any direction, then the left was closer to center than the right was in 1994. In fact, if you look at the image I've attached, the "distance" either group has moved from center is almost exactly the same.
    A problem, I think, is that the center can move left without it being obvious. For example, if a large percentage of Dems move left, the center moves, making the median for Republicans appear to move further right, when they may not have moved at all. And I suspect that accounts for much of the apparent move to the right by Republicans - we're not moving right, but the center moving left over time makes it appear that way. But I could be totally wrong on that.

    ---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    ...the Democrats are playing with the margins...
    This is, I believe, a salient point. Perhaps we should measure the current Democrat position not by how far it is from some constantly shifting center or an arbitrary starting point, but by how near it is to the farthest Left possible. Likewise, Republicans should be measured by how far they are from the farthest right possible.

    Another legitimate measure of relative extremes could be the velocity or rate of change within each party. It is indisputable that the Democrats are moving leftward faster than Republicans move right. It is even reflected in the labels (progressive and conservative) applied to the "base" of each party.
    Last edited by evensaul; July 3rd, 2018 at 08:07 AM.
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  6. #24
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Some of that. Unlike you, I can't discuss these topics at work. I'm the owner and many of our employees are liberal, so discussing politics would be a really bad idea.
    I can certainly understand that. You're talking about having a conversation that could adversely affect your livelihood. It makes perfect sense. Of course, my point wasn't that you should talk about these things at work; my work example was simply to show that, even in the Lion's Den, it's possible to have healthy, meaningful conversation. My point is that it's possible to talk about these things in a way that isn't polarizing. Also, I never said you're insisting that anyone think or believe like you. I'm saying that I can't believe you're still dead set on viewing these things through a myopic lens; that you still "insist" on doing it this way. But you've explained it, and I understand. You don't discuss it at work. Friends and family can be tricky too, which I also understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    btw, I also started a thread taking issue with canned hunts and even deer hunting from a blind as legitimate sport. I think they are poor attempts at manhood.
    I'm not so sure that such a brave stance to take as a partisan issue. I mean, I get that blind hunters can get pretty defensive when you point out that "hunting" feeder-trained animals is a pet name away from hunting dogs and cats, but I don't see where you're really challenging a conservative idea, per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And another thread arguing we should not pledge allegiance to the flag. Those positions would probably be opposed by about 95% of Republicans.
    Would it have been opposed by 95% of Texas Republicans when they were talking about seceding from the United States while Obama was in office because they somehow they got it in their heads that he was behaving like a dictator and infringing on state's rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, this is a natural but false assumption on your part. My arguments to include looks and height in anti-discrimination classes are sincere. And the impulse to start that thread was helping a blind woman through our application process a few weeks ago, and discussing potential accommodations with her. Unfortunately, I concluded there was no way to get even a 50% level of productivity from her compared to other employees doing the same job.
    Ok, help me understand this. You helped a blind woman through your application process, along the way discussing possible accommodations for her condition that would allow her to work, but were not able to make sufficient accommodations that would make her suitable for employment given her condition. Because of how moved and sympathetic you were to this person's disability during this process, you created a thread advocating adding farts and BO as government-protected classes, on the basis that chronic farting is equal to, and therefore as worthy of legal protections as things like blindness, deafness, paralysis, etc?

    Or, were you simply irritated at how arbitrary some protected classes seem to be, and wanted to highlight that arbitrariness by introducing obviously absurd additions to protected classes?

    In other words, are you claiming that the thread in question had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with axe-grinding against the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    A problem, I think, is that the center can move left without it being obvious. For example, if a large percentage of Dems move left, the center moves, making the median for Republicans appear to move further right, when they may not have moved at all. And I suspect that accounts for much of the apparent move to the right by Republicans - we're not moving right, but the center moving left over time makes it appear that way. But I could be totally wrong on that.
    Oh, for God's sake, Even. If the center can move left without it being obvious, then it can move right without it being obvious. Can't you just grant that, yes, as far as the evidence in question in our exchange shows (i.e. the Pew Research interactive tool), the left isn't any more "extreme" than the right?

    "But I could be totally wrong on that." That's a handy disclaimer. Reminds me of when Fox News or CNN puts a question mark on the end of some ridiculous claim, just so they can claim they didn't actually make it. "Obama's Terrorist Fist Bump?"

    Good GOD.

  7. #25
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Or, were you simply irritated at how arbitrary some protected classes seem to be, and wanted to highlight that arbitrariness by introducing obviously absurd additions to protected classes? In other words, are you claiming that the thread in question had absolutely nothing whatsoever with axe-grinding against the left?
    Oh, it could have a little to do with it, but not all that much. I'm after the truth on these things, Dio, but there are lots of influencers that go into a mix and produce action. That's human nature. As I alluded to in that thread, the Left has "pet" classes that it wants to protect, and ignores other classes that should be legitimately protected. Is there any good reason for protections on the basis of race, but not on facial looks or height or political affiliation? None that I can see. So I wanted to discuss what should be added, what might be removed, and what should stay on. If you don't believe me, oh well. And if you want to discuss further, how about posting in that thread?


    And maybe my thread(s) jumped out at you because nobody else is making an effort to start some. Mican has started maybe two this year. You've started what, five in the last two years? If you want more diversity in threads, and their tone, then maybe your side should step up and contribute. Otherwise, you've got no standing to bitch and moan about me and my posts. Seems almost like an personal attack at this point, and I've been reprimanded for doing that to Mican. Continue if you like, though. From here out I'll just ignore it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If the center can move left without it being obvious, then it can move right without it being obvious.
    Theoretically, yes, but a basic knowledge of what is happening in politics would tell you that's not happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Can't you just grant that, yes, as far as the evidence in question in our exchange shows (i.e. the Pew Research interactive tool), they left isn't any more "extreme" than the right?
    Nope. I think it does show that Democrats have moved further to the left than Republicans have to the right, even with just a casual review.
    Last edited by evensaul; July 3rd, 2018 at 10:47 AM.
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  8. #26
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Oh, it could have a little to do with it, but not all that much.
    Alright, so let's recap what happened here. I claimed that you never challenge any conservative ideas. You offered your thread about discrimination as evidence that you do. I challenged that, then you countered with a sympathetic tale about your helping a blind woman, and upon my questioning that, it turns out that it DOES have to do with axe-grinding against the left.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Theoretically, yes, but a basic knowledge of what is happening in politics would tell you that's not happening.
    Ok, again, we'll keep the claims in focus here. Is your claim that the left is generally more extreme than the right, or that the Left is currently more extreme than the right? Bear in mind that I've already agreed that the left is currently ridiculous in their current beliefs/behaviors.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Nope.
    Of course not. In spite of the evidence from your own source (Pew Research) right in front of your face, of course not.

    ---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Otherwise, you've got no standing to bitch and moan about me and my posts.
    Boy, that's an excellent point. Doing nothing but bitching and moaning sure does get old, doesn't it?

  9. #27
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, again, we'll keep the claims in focus here. Is your claim that the left is generally more extreme than the right, or that the Left is currently more extreme than the right?
    Both, from what I see. Dems are currently sprinting left, and seem to never stop moving in that direction. Can you provide any significant area in which they have moved right or even held position over the past thirty years? I can't think of any.

    ---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post

    Of course not. In spite of the evidence from your own source (Pew Research) right in front of your face, of course not.
    From the 2017 report, page 11: "At the same time, the center of the scale has shifted in a somewhat liberal direction over time. To a large extent, this is the result of the public’s growing acceptance of homosexuality and more positive views of immigrants, shifts that are seen among both Democrats and Republicans (GOP attitudes about immigrants are little changed over the last decade, but Republicans are substantially less likely to view immigrants as a burden on the country than they were in the 1990s).

    As I said, a basic knowledge of political trends in the US would lead to a conclusion that the center of the scale is moving left, but above is the explicit statement to prove it.
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  10. #28
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Can't you just grant that, yes, as far as the evidence in question in our exchange shows (i.e. the Pew Research interactive tool), the left isn't any more "extreme" than the right?
    From the 2017 report data:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	extremes.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	31.4 KB 
ID:	3797

    Republicans moved slightly right since 1994, while Dems moved waaay left. Are you telling me not to believe my lying eyes?
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  11. #29
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Can you provide any significant area in which they have moved right or even held position over the past thirty years? I can't think of any.
    Do you mean apart from high taxes, an over-reliance on identity politics, an under-reliance on the established rule of law, and the idea that literally anyone can do literally anything with enough education (as opposed to the conservative idea that any literally anyone can do anything with enough work)?

    Nope, can't think of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the 2017 report, page 11: "At the same time, the center of the scale has shifted in a somewhat liberal direction over time. To a large extent, this is the result of the publicís growing acceptance of homosexuality and more positive views of immigrants, shifts that are seen among both Democrats and Republicans (GOP attitudes about immigrants are little changed over the last decade, but Republicans are substantially less likely to view immigrants as a burden on the country than they were in the 1990s).
    Ok, fair enough. This does state explicitly what you claimed.

    But I do have to point out that I still don't see the word "extreme" though. I DO see the word "somewhat", referring to the center, I also see the word "substantially", which is a little closer to "extreme" than is "somewhat", but it's referring to a shift in Republican attitudes and not Democrat attitudes. So I'm still grappling with the idea of this generally "extreme" thing.

    ---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the 2017 report data:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	extremes.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	31.4 KB 
ID:	3797

    Republicans moved slightly right since 1994, while Dems moved waaay left. Are you telling me not to believe my lying eyes?
    Ok, you posted this while I was still commenting. Where is this in the study? I'd like to look at it.

    ---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

    Alright, I looked at the 2017 study, and the word "extreme" only appears once. Here is the context:

    "It is important to note that while members of the two parties have grown further apart over the past two decades, this does not necessarily mean there has been a rise in politically “extreme” thinking among either Republicans or Democrats, as Pew Research Center’s 2014 study of political polarization found."

    I don't see the graphs labeled "Moving to the Extreme". What page can I find that on?

  12. #30
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Do you mean apart from high taxes, an over-reliance on identity politics, an under-reliance on the established rule of law, and the idea that literally anyone can do literally anything with enough education (as opposed to the conservative idea that any literally anyone can do anything with enough work)?
    Yeah, when you're already at the edge, its hard to move further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, fair enough. This does state explicitly what you claimed.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    But I do have to point out that I still don't see the word "extreme" though. I DO see the word "somewhat", referring to the center, I also see the word "substantially", which is a little closer to "extreme" than is "somewhat", but it's referring to a shift in Republican attitudes and not Democrat attitudes. So I'm still grappling with the idea of this generally "extreme" thing.
    Well, it's just the word of choice by Democrats, so I used it. If you prefer, you can replace with "far" or "farther left". I don't really care. The point of the op is that the description actually applies to Democrats, not Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, you posted this while I was still commenting. Where is this in the study? I'd like to look at it.
    Created from page 12, stacking the left and right images.
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Created from page 12, stacking the left and right images.
    Did you add the words "Moving To The Extreme", or were they actually in the study somewhere? If they were already in the study, that doesn't square from this language in the same study:

    "It is important to note that while members of the two parties have grown further apart over the past two decades, this does not necessarily mean there has been a rise in politically “extreme” thinking among either Republicans or Democrats, as Pew Research Center’s 2014 study of political polarization found."

    (Page 9)

    If you added them, why would you add such a misleading statement, given the statement above? Surely you're not misrepresenting the data to suit your claims. That would be enormously disappointing, man.

    ---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Well, it's just the word of choice by Democrats, so I used it. If you prefer, you can replace with "far" or "farther left". I don't really care. The point of the op is that the description actually applies to Democrats, not Republicans.
    Ok, so your claim is that Democrats are "far" or "farther left" than Republicans? I'm not sure that's a real revelation.

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Did you add the words "Moving To The Extreme",
    I lifted the jpeg from a political editorial.

    ---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Ok, so your claim is that Democrats are "far" or "farther left" than Republicans? I'm not sure that's a real revelation.
    No, my claim is that the word extreme applies more to Democrats than to Republicans. That's a pretty simple claim, which I thought I made pretty clear in both the headline and the op. But I guess not.
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Republicans moved slightly right since 1994, while Dems moved waaay left.
    Statements like this can be quite misleading. Republicans didn't simply "move slightly right since 1994". They moved left from 1994 to 2004, following a gradual shift to the left which was also exhibited by the Dems, then "veered sharply back to the right" (from http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/...y/#interactive).

    So a more accurate statement would be:
    1994-2004
    Dems showed a gradual shift to the left.
    GOP matched this gradual shift to the left.

    2004-2014
    Dems continued their gradual shift to the left at a similar rate.
    GOP veered sharply back to the right, landing even further to the right than when they started in 1994.

    You can see this shift quite clearly when clicking through the years from 1994-2014. The article sums it up with: "The GOP ideological shift over the past decade has matched, if not exceeded, the rate at which Democrats have become more liberal".

    Your statement appears to attempt to imply that both sides have moved away from the center, but the Dems did so waaay more extremely, which isn't the case.
    In fact, both were moving left, and then the GOP veered sharply right, making a full swing to far-right, while Dems simply continued on the same gradual move left previously shared by the GOP.

    I guess it depends on how one defines "extreme", when it comes to political ideology. A gradual shift to the left on both sides, followed by one side's abrupt cessation of the gradual shift left and a veering to the far-right, seems like a pretty extreme change in ideology, if you ask me.

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I lifted the jpeg from a political editorial.
    Did you lift it from a political editorial, or did you create it by stacking the images from page 12 of the study?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, my claim is that the word extreme applies more to Democrats than to Republicans.
    And THEN you said "If you prefer, you can replace with "far" or "farther left". I don't really care.", which I did, which leaves is with "Democrats are "far" or "farther left" than Republicans". So which is it? Both groups are extreme, as you just said, so is your concern that the left is extremely extreme, where the right is simply extreme?

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Did you lift it from a political editorial, or did you create it by stacking the images from page 12 of the study?
    I just told you, I lifted it from a political editorial. I did not alter it in any way. Even if I had, you're quibbling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    And THEN you said "If you prefer, you can replace with "far" or "farther left". I don't really care.", which I did, which leaves is with "Democrats are "far" or "farther left" than Republicans". So which is it? Both groups are extreme, as you just said, so is your concern that the left is extremely extreme, where the right is simply extreme?
    More quibbling. Read the headline. Read the op. It isn't that hard, Dio.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Here's the political editorial he got it from:
    https://www.investors.com/politics/e...-extreme-left/

  19. Thanks Dionysus thanked for this post
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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    It isn't that hard, Dio.
    No, I'll tell you what's not that hard: Being honest.

    When I first asked where the image was in the study, which you cited as the reference, you said "Created from page 12, stacking the left and right images." This suggested to me that YOU created it BY referencing the image. Of course, you didn't say "I created it"; you just said "created", which leaves you enough wiggle room to deny what you implied. When I pressed more, you admitted that you lifted the image from a political editorial, which is NOT what you cited as the source FOR THE IMAGE, which is what I asked.

    When I pressed about the word "extreme", you said that "extreme" is just a word you co-opted, and that I could use "far" and "farther left" if I preferred. When I did that, you said I got it wrong. So what did I get wrong?

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    No, I'll tell you what's not that hard: Being honest.

    When I first asked where the image was in the study, which you cited as the reference, you said "Created from page 12, stacking the left and right images." This suggested to me that YOU created it BY referencing the image. Of course, you didn't say "I created it"; you just said "created", which leaves you enough wiggle room to deny what you implied. When I pressed more, you admitted that you lifted the image from a political editorial, which is NOT what you cited as the source FOR THE IMAGE, which is what I asked.

    When I pressed about the word "extreme", you said that "extreme" is just a word you co-opted, and that I could use "far" and "farther left" if I preferred. When I did that, you said I got it wrong. So what did I get wrong?
    Believe what you like, Dio. I really donít care.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    The article at investors.com really seems to favour the kind of language which clearly attempts to mislead the reader in interpreting the Pew data.
    Example:
    Everyone knows that the country is more politically polarized than ever, but most don't know why. Data from the highly respected Pew Research Center provides a definitive answer. It's because Democrats have moved sharply to the extreme left.
    "Moved sharply to the extreme left" is hardly what happened, but it makes total sense that conservatives would want to make it seem as though it was, especially since the data came from "the highly respected Pew Research Center"...

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    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    I guess it depends on how one defines "extreme", when it comes to political ideology. A gradual shift to the left on both sides, followed by one side's abrupt cessation of the gradual shift left and a veering to the far-right, seems like a pretty extreme change in ideology, if you ask me.
    Okay, I can understand why you might have that opinion. If we apply your criteria of abrupt change to what's happening in politics today, this year, or even the past few years, isn't it the Democrats who are changing the most rapidly?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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