Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 141
  1. #61
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Your rebuttal hinged on your ludicrous claim of natural change. Because the rebuttal fails, my claim stands. It's that simple.
    That's simply false. First, my post #46 explained in detail the most straight-forward & likely interpretation of the Pew data. Your response made only two points: 1. questioned my use of the word "natural" and asked for explanation of it, and 2. asked for an explanation of why I described the GOP end position a far-right, which I provided. Neither of the points you made in response addressed the actual content of the interpretation of the Pew data - you simply got fixated on some wording of the characterization of it.
    Further, I have already re-stated the particular portion of my post, removing the reference to "natural" which caused you to dig a rabbit hole for yourself to complain about. Therefore, your claim that my "rebuttal hinged on a claim of natural change" is simply nonsense. The points I made in post #46 remain the same, and you have not addressed them.

    Again, the information you provided for 1994-now shows the following:
    1994-2004
    Dems showed a gradual shift to the left.
    GOP matched this gradual shift to the left.

    2004-2014
    Dems continued the gradual shift to the left at a similar rate.
    GOP veered sharply back to the right, ending up even further right than in 1994.

    This data does not support your claims.

  2. #62
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    That's simply false. First, my post #46 explained in detail the most straight-forward & likely interpretation of the Pew data. Your response made only two points: 1. questioned my use of the word "natural" and asked for explanation of it, and 2. asked for an explanation of why I described the GOP end position a far-right, which I provided. Neither of the points you made in response addressed the actual content of the interpretation of the Pew data - you simply got fixated on some wording of the characterization of it.
    Further, I have already re-stated the particular portion of my post, removing the reference to "natural" which caused you to dig a rabbit hole for yourself to complain about. Therefore, your claim that my "rebuttal hinged on a claim of natural change" is simply nonsense. The points I made in post #46 remain the same, and you have not addressed them.

    Again, the information you provided for 1994-now shows the following:
    1994-2004
    Dems showed a gradual shift to the left.
    GOP matched this gradual shift to the left.

    2004-2014
    Dems continued the gradual shift to the left at a similar rate.
    GOP veered sharply back to the right, ending up even further right than in 1994.

    This data does not support your claims.
    The overall data from the entire period shows R moving slightly right and D moving way left. That is indisputable. You're pushing an invalid interpretation by focusing on sub-movements within that time frame. It just doesn't fly, even if you leave out the "natural" claim you made earlier. Even more so without it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #63
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The overall data from the entire period shows R moving slightly right and D moving way left.
    Again, to repeat once more for another time yet again, "R moving slightly right" is a misrepresentation of what happened. The data does not support this.

  4. #64
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    I just realized you're using the less complete data and not 1994 to 2017 which I used in the op. Why?

    My argument is based on the 2017 report, including the stacked graphics jpeg to which you provided a link. I'm not misrepresenting that in any way. It shows a small move to the right by R and a big move left by D. Do you dispute that?

    By focusing on a subset of the available data, you are using selective attention, or cherry picking data without the full available context. Cherry Picking data is a logical fallacy.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #65
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I just realized you're using the less complete data and not 1994 to 2017 which I used in the op. Why?
    Like Dio, I was looking at the interactive tool offered on the Pew page for the report released in 2014. The source you offered for the 2017 report was just in PDF form, and did not have the ability to cycle through the years in the granular fashion afforded by the interactive tool. I have since found the 2017 report online pages:
    Full report article: http://www.people-press.org/2017/10/...-values-widen/
    Interactive tool: http://www.people-press.org/interact...ion-1994-2017/

    Cycling through the years shows the gradual shift left of both D & R to the left, with an abrupt and quite large jump to the right by R in 2011.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    My argument is based on the 2017 report, including the stacked graphics jpeg to which you provided a link. I'm not misrepresenting that in any way. It shows a small move to the right by R and a big move left by D. Do you dispute that?
    Yet again, you're focusing on the 1994 and 2017 graphs alone, and ignoring the transition which occurred in the time between, during which R moved further left than it is in 1994.

    I can't believe how many times I've had to explain this: just looking at 1994 and 2017 and saying that "R did a small move right" is misleading. They didn't just make "a small move right" and nothing else during 1994-2017. They made a gradual move left along with D in 1994-2004, and then did a 180 and made a big move right, covering ground which it took D nearly twice as long in their move left over the entire period.

    Again, from the 2014 Pew article: "the GOP ideological shift over the past decade (2004-2014) has matched, if not exceeded, the rate at which Democrats have become more liberal".
    This is the literal antithesis of "R did a small move right".

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    By focusing on a subset of the available data, you are using selective attention, or cherry picking data without the full available context. Cherry Picking data is a logical fallacy.
    Really? Please, tell me more!
    So, you're saying that focusing on a subset of available data, say, for example, comparing only 1994 and 2017 and saying that the change between the two represents the totality of the change which took place during that time is fallacious? Why didn't anybody mention this before? Oh wait, I DID.

    The investors article does the exact same thing by showing only the 1994 and 2017 graphs, conveniently leaving out the 2004 graph showing that R and D had both moved further left between 1994 and 2017 before R moved back right and D continued left. Of course, they had to do that so that they could make misleading statements like "while the Republican center moved only slightly to the right over the past 23 years, the center of Democratic part shifted far to the left".

    And here you're accusing me of cherry picking because I was looking at 1994-2014, and not 1994-2017, a difference of three years? And even when I've been repeatedly pointing out to you that you're ignoring changes which happened in 1994-2011? Seriously?

    Again, and hopefully for the last time, I'm simply looking at the entirety of the changes exhibited throughout the years, and pointing out that statements like "R moved slightly right" are misrepresentations of what the full and granular data shows happened.

    You need to acknowledge this fact before any truly valuable discussion can be had about the changes which happened, why they happened, and what it means for D & R now. Until you do, you're part of the problem.

  6. #66
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy
    Seriously?
    Seriously.

    You’re focusing on a couple year segment when R moved right, several years ago, rather than a summary of the entire data set. You also refuse to consider how D now embraces Socialism, and the big picture of how D has changed over the past sixty years.

    Keep yammerin and hammerin about how R went right for a couple years, though, if you need more finger exercise. Won’t bother me none.
    Last edited by evensaul; July 5th, 2018 at 04:25 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #67
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You’re focusing on a couple year segment when R moved right, several years ago, rather than a summary of the entire data set.
    Another misrepresentation. I've already explained repeatedly that I'm looking at the data in its entirety and pointing out that your statements are incorrect. Looking at a summary of the entire data set can be helpful, sure, but the only statement the summary change (1994-2017) allows one to make is that "this is where they were then, and this is where they are now". Such a comparison doesn't allow one to state anything about what happened during that time, which is what you are doing with "R did a small move right but D moved way left". Again, R didn't just make "a small move right" and nothing else during 1994-2017.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You also refuse to consider how D now embraces Socialism, and the big picture of how D has changed over the past sixty years.
    Yet another misrepresentation. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the data doesn't support your statements. Once you start treating the data honestly and admit that your statements aren't supported because you're just comparing two positions at different times and saying that the difference is the totality of the change, then we can have a discussion where we consider what happened. My refusal to consider your statements (about D or R) with regards to what that data shows is due to your lack of honesty thus far.

    And again, if you want to discuss the changes in the past 60 years in the same context as what we're discussing regarding the Pew data which you've stated is your most significant support for the OP, please provide data for the past 60 years which is similar to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Keep yammerin and hammerin about how R went right for a couple years, though, if you need more finger exercise. Won’t bother me none.
    Again, misrepresenting things. I don't "keep yammerin about how R went right for a couple years". I'm pointing out that the data, when looked at in its entirety, doesn't support statements like "R did a small move right".

  8. #68
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,238
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is, I believe, a salient point. Perhaps we should measure the current Democrat position not by how far it is from some constantly shifting center or an arbitrary starting point, but by how near it is to the farthest Left possible. Likewise, Republicans should be measured by how far they are from the farthest right possible.
    Sort of. I imagine it as more as a bright line. Either you cross it or you don't. So long as you don't cross the line, then we just have shifting positions and usually these are based on whether our societal structures have become too corrupt, too much based on power lending to larger inequality or too flat, not allowing for competency to allow for individual success. These positions are constantly shifting and adjusting, which is a good thing. We don't want too much inequality. Likewise, we do want competency to allow for success. However, if all we care about is competency, then it is just a given that inequality will be very high. And if we don't give enough freedom for individual competency, then innovation is too constrained. So, we have to strike some sort of balance and this is the role of the conservative and liberal views. It is only when either view wanders off into its extreme position where we have a real problem and this problem is usually followed by millions of people dying. So, I am not worried about some socialist positions liberals hold. Socialism is a means of offering less inequality to the system. We can argue about how much is ok and which markets should be socialized. These are political arguments and they are useful. However, when liberals hold Marxist positions, meaning socialism must be imposed through some sort of force or revolution or when the actual goal is to completely eliminate all free markets which, from what I can tell is exactly what Democratic Socialism is proposing, then I think we have something real to worry about. It is worrying not because Democratic Socialists exist but because the liberal party has allowed itself to be co-opted with people that hold this ideological position. I am not interested in how has it occurred or whether it is considered more left or right compared to some other position. It is no less worrying than if the GOP openly embraced people from the American Nazi Party or the American Front. We'd be outraged and people in the GOP would openly revolt. And they'd be right to do so. And the entirety of America would be right to worry. So, the idea we can watch the Democrat party accept members of the Democratic Socialist party into its fold should be no less worrying. Perhaps, part of the problem is that we have sort of, on the right, demonized the concept of socialism with this really broad generalization and we don't really do a good job of differentiating between socialism and Marxism. Sort of like the left conflates all nationalism with fascism. On the right though, we have this boogeyman of Hitler to clearly mark the line between nationalism and actual fascism. For some reason, as a culture, we have not put Marxists like Che Guevarra, Castro, Lenin, et al. in the same box of evil. Ultimately, though, it comes down to liberal determining the line on their own. On the ideological right, we don't really have the power to tell liberal where the line should be drawn. So, hopefully, they figure it out because right now, Americans should be a little worried. We should, at the very least, be paying great attention to what the Democratic party is becoming.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Another legitimate measure of relative extremes could be the velocity or rate of change within each party. It is indisputable that the Democrats are moving leftward faster than Republicans move right. It is even reflected in the labels (progressive and conservative) applied to the "base" of each party.
    Not really. Why are we concerned about "rate of change"? We simply don't want either party crossing the proverbial line into their extremist position. If Democrats are moving quickly to the left, it could be a reflection of a large amount of inequality. If Republicans are moving quickly right, it could be due to nothing more than a need to create structure due to some void from leftist expansion. Both could be desirable at any given moment. Unless, you or someone else can show that velocity can be correlated with crossing the line, then it really isn't interesting. At least not in a discussion on extremes.

    However, sadly, reading posts in this thread, it still seems to be on track as little more than a **** fight over which opposition party is more off-center. As though this really mattered much when discussing extreme positions. In other words, this thread has become little more than a shouting match over which party is more to the left or to the right and predictably, it comes down to little more than confirmation bias.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  9. Likes MindTrap028 liked this post
  10. #69
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Ibelsd, I understand your criticism of the general quality of the debate in this thread. And I wish you could get liberals to engage in thoughtful argument about the dangers of Socialism. But I doubt that will happen, here or anywhere else because, from what can tell, modern American socialists think they will be able to implement socialism without any dangerous excess. It comes from a mix of ignorance and hubris that isn't going to change, because our universities are full of liberal/socialist professors who, over the course of four or five years, turn ordinary kids into dangerous little leftists.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #70
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    This is just getting comical, and more than a little sad, at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    this thread has become little more than a shouting match over which party is more to the left or to the right
    That's exactly what this thread was intended to be.
    Here's the title: "Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans"
    Here's the opening line: "The Left often accuses Republicans of extremism, but available evidence suggests that, on the whole, it is Democrats who are becoming more and more extreme"
    And from evensaul's first reply: "I think the Pew Research reports are a pretty good analysis on their own at showing that Democrats are more extreme than Republicans."

    So it hasn't "become little more than a shouting match over which party is more to the left or to the right", that is what is was from the very beginning, by design. Indeed, even some debaters' attempts (including your own) at having a different kind of discussion have been quashed by evensaul.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Ibelsd, I understand your criticism of the general quality of the debate in this thread. And I wish you could get liberals to engage in thoughtful argument about the dangers of Socialism.
    If you wanted to "engage in thoughtful argument about the dangers of Socialism", you had a funny way of going about it.

    Ibelsd's very first post did indeed contain thoughtful points. He obviously spent time considering the OP and it might have led to some fruitful discussion.
    But what did you do? You ignored the meat of his post, grabbed the single line you could think of which could be twisted into forwarding your flawed OP's narrative ("the Democrats are playing with the margins"), and went on to continue the shouting match with "It is indisputable that the Democrats are moving leftward faster than Republicans move right", yet again misrepresenting the data you have offered as support.
    Based on your conduct it's clear that you couldn't care less about having thoughtful arguments.

    Also, the way in which you take his continued criticism of your flawed OP and try to co-op it into a general agreement with it is tenuous, at best. Although I have to say I admire the attempt, as dishonest as it is. It really approaches the realm of art, in a way.

    It would be nice if you actually followed through with one your earliest statements:
    "I think the Pew Research reports are a pretty good analysis on their own at showing that Democrats are more extreme than Republicans. But you and I, and anyone else who wants to participate, can work together to provide a more complete analysis, including rating how significant each item is."

    So, instead of misrepresenting things, erecting strawmen, and trolling, you might try actually responding to the issues which have been repeatedly pointed out with your incomplete and cherry-picked analysis. If reaching a more complete analysis of the data which you tout as your most significant support is your goal as you stated, then you need to stop ignoring the issues with your analysis. I suspect, however, that this was never your true goal, and all you wanted to achieve with this thread, like your other threads, was to spew out your confirmation bias and ignore criticism of your flawed interpretation of the data. This is the kind of conduct which makes ODN even more like the perfect echo chamber it was apparently designed to be.
    Way to be part of the problem, dude.

  12. #71
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Lol. 500 words of kvetching and no attempt to offer anything new.

    If you thought Ibelsd's posts could lead to fruitful dialogue why haven't you made any effort in that direction? He and I generally agree with each other on the dangers of the Left, so I don't have need for deep discussion with him. But you have a great opportunity here, so go for it, boy!
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #72
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Lol. 500 words of kvetching and no attempt to offer anything new.
    Nothing new is required - I've repeatedly pointed out why your statements are flawed. Either address the rebuttal or retract the claims you've made. Further comments such as these which don't add anything to this thread, such as it is, will be reported as spam.

  14. #73
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    You do that, whenever necessary. In the mean time, you go engage Ibelsd in that fruitful dialogue. I'd like to see it (but expect that I won't).
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #74
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You do that, whenever necessary. In the mean time, you go engage Ibelsd in that fruitful dialogue. I'd like to see it (but expect that I won't).
    The irony is pretty thick here, but if Ibelsd wants to start a thread on the dangers of Socialism, I might be tempted to participate, depending on the OP. I can already tell I'd agree with him on some points, which may surprise you, since you've obviously had me pegged as a rampant socialist liberal simply because I criticized your flawed interpretation of the data (criticism which you yourself invited).

    But again, that's not what this thread is about,and you still haven't supported the claims you've made:
    Post # 16: "From your same study, look at the interactive feature on this page, and note that the median line for Democrats from 1994 to 2014 moved waay left, while the Republican median moved slightly right."
    Post # 28: "Republicans moved slightly right since 1994, while Dems moved waaay left."

    The Republican median line did not simply move slightly right from 1994-2014.

    If you could just for a second get over whatever rage that is blinding you to the facts, it would really help finally have a discussion about the changes which happened, why they happened, and what it means for D & R now. Until you do, you're part of the problem.

    So, from the top:
    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul;post560464
    Republicans moved slightly right since 1994, while Dems moved waaay left.
    Statements like this can be quite misleading. Republicans didn't simply "move slightly right since 1994". They moved left from 1994 to 2004, following a gradual shift to the left which was also exhibited by the Dems, then "veered sharply back to the right" (from http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/...y/#interactive).

    So a more accurate statement would be:
    1994-2004
    Dems showed a gradual shift to the left.
    GOP matched this gradual shift to the left.

    2004-2014
    Dems continued their gradual shift to the left at a similar rate.
    GOP veered sharply back to the right, landing even further to the right than when they started in 1994.

    You can see this shift quite clearly when clicking through the years from 1994-2014. The article sums it up with: "The GOP ideological shift over the past decade has matched, if not exceeded, the rate at which Democrats have become more liberal".

    Your statement appears to attempt to imply that both sides have moved away from the center, but the Dems did so waaay more extremely, which isn't the case.
    In fact, both were moving left, and then the GOP veered sharply right, making a full swing to far-right, while Dems continued on the same gradual move left previously shared by the GOP.

    I guess it depends on how one defines "extreme", when it comes to political ideology. A gradual shift to the left on both sides, followed by one side's abrupt cessation of the gradual shift left and a veering to the far-right, seems like a pretty extreme change in ideology, if you ask me.

  16. #75
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    FB, I really just do not agree with your representation of the data. So repeating the same arguments won't convince me any more than you'd be convinced by a repeat of my interpretation. We're at an impasse. I can live with that, if neither of us can come up with something more persuasive.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  17. #76
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    FB, I really just do not agree with your representation of the data.
    Unless you explain how my representation of the data is flawed, then the rebuttal stands and your claims are unsupported.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    So repeating the same arguments won't convince me any more than you'd be convinced by a repeat of my interpretation.
    Simply repeating your flawed interpretation in response to my explanation of why it is incorrect does nothing, so no wonder it's unconvincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    We're at an impasse. I can live with that, if neither of us can come up with something more persuasive.
    If you refuse to adequately respond to criticisms, then you abandon your argument.

  18. #77
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    Unless you explain how my representation of the data is flawed, then the rebuttal stands and your claims are unsupported.
    I'll say it a different way: Your rebuttal is based on specific movements or subsets of the total 1994-2017 data, rather than the larger picture. I don't believe those fluctuations within the timeline are very significant, and instead think the 1994 starting points and 2017 endpoints are most important. You may be right, but I don't think so. I may be right, but you don't think so. That is the impasse. I don't see a way around it. Do you?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  19. #78
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'll say it a different way: Your rebuttal is based on specific movements or subsets of the total 1994-2017 data, rather than the larger picture. I don't believe those fluctuations within the timeline are very significant, and instead think the 1994 starting points and 2017 endpoints are most important. You may be right, but I don't think so. I may be right, but you don't think so. That is the impasse. I don't see a way around it. Do you?
    This is all quite irrelevant to the fact that your statement of "Republicans moved slightly right since 1994" isn't supported by the data, which shows that there was more which happened during those years than simply "moved slightly right". Do you dispute this?
    The most you could say is "Republicans are slightly more conservative than they were in 1994, disregarding any other changes which took place between then and now".

  20. #79
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Sorry, but I really don't see a significant difference in terms of effect on the op.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  21. #80
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    665
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Democrats are More Extreme than Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sorry, but I really don't see a significant difference.
    You don't see a difference between saying that something just changed a little bit during a period of time and saying that something didn't just change a little bit during a period of time? Wow.

  22. Likes mican333 liked this post
 

 
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. An Extreme Choice
    By LookAtTheStars in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 20th, 2012, 04:48 PM
  2. Replies: 28
    Last Post: August 21st, 2009, 07:41 AM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: October 20th, 2007, 08:07 PM
  4. Replies: 12
    Last Post: September 12th, 2006, 10:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •