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Thread: Fake Meat

  1. #21
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, the website in the op includes the following: "The revolutionary plant-based burger that looks, cooks and satisfies like beef."

    Why is it important to look like beef at every step of packaging, cooking and eating?
    Because it makes the product more appealing to consumers who want an approximation of cooking and consuming a real hamburger.

    The goal is to sell the things, after all.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 09:32 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Right, it is a “fake burger” as you described it before modifying your post. And it only looks like hamburger before or after cooking because it is made with beet juice added to look like hamburger. Its a total fraud.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Right, it is a “fake burger” as you described it before modifying your post. And it only looks like hamburger before or after cooking because it is made with beet juice added to look like hamburger. Its a total fraud.
    "Fraud" typically means that there is a deception and I see no deception here.

    The coloring is certainly part of the process to make what's not beef to look like beef but the consumer obviously knows that it's not-beef that looks like beef and the producers don't try to trick them into thinking otherwise. It's certainly not "Fraud" in the legal sense of the word.


    I honestly don't know what there is to complain about. Someone makes a product that people want to buy and people, knowing what it is, buy it and enjoy it. The market at work. No one is getting ripped off and no one is getting hurt.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 10:24 AM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "Fraud" typically means that there is a deception and I see no deception here.
    I started this thread believing the only deception was by the buyers trying to fool themselves into thinking they were eating meat. But now I'm not so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The coloring is certainly part of the process to make what's not beef to look like beef but the consumer obviously knows that it's not-beef that looks like beef and the producers don't try to trick them into thinking otherwise. It's certainly not "Fraud" in the legal sense of the word. I honestly don't know what there is to complain about. Someone makes a product that people want to buy and people, knowing what it is, buy it and enjoy it. The market at work. No one is getting ripped off and no one is getting hurt.
    What about the estimated 20% of adults who cannot read English? And why is it so important to have their product in the meat aisle, where those who can't read can become confused enough by the packaging ad appearance to buy what they think is meat, but isn't? http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view...ry-chainkroger Why call it "meat" and make it look like hamburger when it isn't, if not to deceive the gullible to get extra sales? Do you really believe that NO ONE is confused and getting ripped off?
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  5. #25
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What about the estimated 20% of adults who cannot read English? And why is it so important to have their product in the meat aisle, where those who can't read can become confused enough by the packaging ad appearance to buy what they think is meat, but isn't? http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view...ry-chainkroger Why call it "meat" and make it look like hamburger when it isn't, if not to deceive the gullible to get extra sales?
    I've answered that question already but I guess I can answer it again.

    People who buy fake meat want as much of the experience of preparing and eating meat without some of the downsides that come with purchasing and ingesting actual meat. So the more the fake meat appears to be like real meat, the more desirable it is to the people who want to have fake meat. So that would be a good reason to make fake meat as close to real meat as possible.

    And a product is placed where it is most likely to be seen by those who the sellers want to buy their product so it makes sense to place fake meat near real meat since the target consumer are those who desire real meat. The thinking probably goes that someone is looking for real meat but when they see the fake meat that looks like it might be nearly as good as real meat, the consumer will consider trying out the healthier alternative.

    Also, assuming it needs to be refrigerated, it will have to go into one of the refrigerated areas of the store and the most logical place is with the meat.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you really believe that NO ONE is confused and getting ripped off?
    I don't know if zero percent of the people ever get confused but I very much doubt that the fake meat is placed there because they figure that they will make a lot of money by people buying their product by mistake (especially since one can probably return it for a refund if they do buy it by mistake). So if the "mistake purchase" is their strategy for placing their product there, it's such a dumb strategy that I really doubt they would employ it. So I think the reasoning for placing it there is something else, like what I explained above. And "rip off" does include an intent to deceive. I see no valid reason to think that there is any intentional deception going on and therefore I don't think there is any rip-off.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 04:26 PM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know if zero percent of the people ever get confused but I very much doubt that the fake meat is placed there because they figure that they will make a lot of money by people buying their product by mistake (especially since one can probably return it for a refund if they do buy it by mistake). So if the "mistake purchase" is their strategy for placing their product there, it's such a dumb strategy that I really doubt they would employ it. So I think the reasoning for placing it there is something else, like what I explained above. And "rip off" does include an intent to deceive. I see no valid reason to think that there is any intentional deception going on and therefore I don't think there is any rip-off.
    I don't think you understand the economics and marketing of food production, distribution and point of purchase anywhere near enough to support the above claims. But if you do, then please provide some real analysis.

    Let's do some math: If fake meat sales increased by just two packages per day in "more than 3200 grocery stores nationwide" due to consumer confusion (caused by location in meat aisle, using "meat" in the brand name", misleading appearance, illiteracy) that would be 6400 extra units sold per day, or 2,3336,000 units per year.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I don't think you understand the economics and marketing of food production, distribution and point of purchase anywhere near enough to support the above claims. But if you do, then please provide some real analysis.
    I will provide the same amount of analysis for my counter-argument as has been presented for the argument that I'm addressing.

    So once you provide some real analysis to support your assertion that fake meat is an intentional scam, I will concern myself with countering that argument with a similar level of analysis.

    But so far you are just basing your argument on your own best understanding of the issue so likewise I am using my best understanding of the issue for my counter-argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Let's do some math: If fake meat sales increased by just two packages per day in "more than 3200 grocery stores nationwide" due to consumer confusion (caused by location in meat aisle, using "meat" in the brand name", misleading appearance, illiteracy) that would be 6400 extra units sold per day, or 2,3336,000 units per year.
    And you think that that is what will happen (an average of two additional units will be sold per store per day). I think that that would not happen. Even if two units are sold in a day by mistake, I think that a significant number would be returned thus negating some of the initial sales.

    And what I'm sure would happen is that most of the people who bought the wrong product by mistake would not purchase it again. So eventually mistake purchases would cease as people would not repeat their errors.

  8. #28
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So once you provide some real analysis to support your assertion that fake meat is an intentional scam,
    I will rephrase for clarity: It is not an intentional scam or fraud by the producer of the product, but I'm sure they are all too happy to allow confusion by the customers in order to increase incremental sales. That would just be a profitable and legal, albeit unethical, business decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you think that that is what will happen (an average of two additional units will be sold per store per day).
    No, I think it would likely average closer to 5 per day. There are a lot of illiterate people out there, and a lot more who don't read carefully. I dropped down to 2 so as not to seem pushing an extreme number.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Even if two units are sold in a day by mistake, I think that a significant number would be returned thus negating some of the initial sales. And what I'm sure would happen is that most of the people who bought the wrong product by mistake would not purchase it again. So eventually mistake purchases would cease as people would not repeat their errors.
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #29
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I will rephrase for clarity: It is not an intentional scam or fraud by the producer of the product, but I'm sure they are all too happy to allow confusion by the customers in order to increase incremental sales. That would just be a profitable and legal, albeit unethical, business decision.
    But that definitely does not qualify as fraud. If one is not seeking to cheat someone, then they aren't committing fraud even if they are happy about an unexpected side effect which doesn't benefit the customer.

    And whether one would be happy about such a mistake would probably vary from person to person. You seem to be arguing from the premise that all business men are greedy and unethical. I certainly won't contest that some are exactly that but I wouldn't say that about each and every one of them and therefore can't say whether the makers of this product would be happy if they unintentionally disadvantaged a customer.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, I think it would likely average closer to 5 per day. There are a lot of illiterate people out there, and a lot more who don't read carefully. I dropped down to 2 so as not to seem pushing an extreme number.
    I doubt it even happens once a month. In support:

    I assume you will agree that illiterate people are likely to be poor. And fake meat is more expensive than the least expensive ground beef (I looked it up). So the scenario of a poor, illiterate person going to the store to buy real inexpensive ground beef, seeing an unfamiliar and more expensive product that he MIGHT mistake for ground beef (he might figure it's not real ground beef even if he can't read the label) and deciding to buy the more expensive product instead of his usual ground beef seems extremely unlikely. IF it happens at all, it would happen very infrequently.

    And in fact, the producers of fake beef will likely know that people are very unlikely to buy their product by mistake due to it being more expensive than real beef and therefore aren't rubbing their hands with glee over the thought of suckering people into buying their product by mistake. They would likely figure that such an event would be a very rare occasion.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    But no one has been successful at making fake beef that tastes just like real beef. Therefore, if one buys fake beef by mistake, they might return it and they would not buy it again if they want real beef.
    Last edited by mican333; July 31st, 2018 at 09:23 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    If that is the case then what is the issue?
    If people bought something on accident, but liked it better than what they had intended to purchase, and they purchased it again on purpose, I see no issue at all. It could even be healthier choice depending.

    I agree that it seems stupid, but consumers will really decide this and so far the consumer is ok with fake meat or it wouldn't be so readily available.

    At least they aren't trying to just change the meaning of "meat" like has been done with human gender or "gay marriage". After all, since it is still "meat" they could be fighting to just call it "meat" or "hamburger" or "crab" and leave the imitation label off altogether.
    Since the producer "feels it's real crab" it IS real crab ha know! In the last decade or so, how you "feel" about a subject means much more than anything else.
    Change the definition of "crab" or "meat" and there are no longer any issues that I can see

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    Re: Fake Meat

    So, I was at my local A&W, and they had a sign on the door saying that, due to the popularity of the Beyond Meat burgers they had recently introduced, they were out of stock.
    I guess all those people got tricked too...

  12. #32
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    Re: Fake Meat

    @mican

    Are you arguing that poor people don't sometimes (or often) spend their money on relatively expensive food?

    Are you aware that more than 32 million adults in the US are functionally illiterate, or approximately 14% - 20% (varied estimates)? And probably more than that have difficulty with math, and may not understand the relative differences in price?

    I think you are badly underestimating the number of people who may be duped by pictures of what they think is hamburger, especially when the product is found in the meat section.


    @FB

    How many are "all those people"? Did that restaurant run out because they have a big recurring demand or because they had a limited starter supply of fake meat to test customer response? You don't really know, do you?

    ---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    After all, since it is still "meat" they could be fighting to just call it "meat" or "hamburger" or "crab" and leave the imitation label off altogether.
    And no doubt they would like to!

    Purveyors of fake meat are resisting all efforts to prevent them from using the word "meat".
    http://fortune.com/2018/08/28/tofurk...ake-meat-bill/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/28/u...w-tofurky.html
    Last edited by evensaul; September 2nd, 2018 at 09:14 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Are you arguing that poor people don't sometimes (or often) spend their money on relatively expensive food?
    They may spend more money on something that is identifiably better than the cheapest option, such as buying steak instead of ground beef. But I don't think they often buy something that looks exactly the same as regular ground beef just because it costs more.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Are you aware that more than 32 million adults in the US are functionally illiterate, or approximately 14% - 20% (varied estimates)? And probably more than that have difficulty with math, and may not understand the relative differences in price?
    What percentage of people that regularly go grocery shopping STILL don't realize that four dollars is more than three dollars? I'd say that is a very small number.

    And again, if they did purchase fake beef by pure accident, they would be very unlikely to make that mistake again so accidental purchases would be rare.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think you are badly underestimating the number of people who may be duped by pictures of what they think is hamburger, especially when the product is found in the meat section.
    I don't think the number of people who would be mistaken is that high. For one, the product is packaged differently than regular ground beef. Ground beef is sold in a packet of raw beef. Fake burger is packaged as separate patties so right there, there is indeed an identifiable difference between regular ground beef and fake beef. So almost no one is going to mistakenly grab that product instead of their intended purchase. They would have consider the product and actually decide to purchase that instead of what they were going to originally purchase. And at that point, they would likely have to consider the price and when they see the higher price tag on the fake meat, they would opt for their regular meat. And if they STILL bought the fake meat and discovered it was fake and not as tasty as real beef, they would not purchase it again.

    Like I said, I doubt that there would be a mistaken purchase in a given store once a month. That is my estimate and if you are going to say that my estimate is wrong, you will need to provide a different estimate and back it up with some kind of argument (as opposed to just questioning my argument).
    Last edited by mican333; September 3rd, 2018 at 08:28 AM.

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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Are you aware that more than 32 million adults in the US are functionally illiterate, or approximately 14% - 20% (varied estimates)? And probably more than that have difficulty with math, and may not understand the relative differences in price?
    That's quite kind of you, thinking of the illiterate. How do we resolve this issue?

    I'm fairly certain that we cannot call a company who sells plant-based patties unethical just because someone who is illiterate might be 'tricked' into believing the product to be real meat. If that were the bar for calling a business unethical, then any product that has writing on it could be considered unethical because it doesn't consider that an illiterate person might not be able to understand what they are consuming.

    Do you have a food allergy? If so, then you should be glad that there are companies putting out products which enable those who can't eat certain products (red meat, dairy, gluten, etc.) to enjoy a comparable product with similar taste.

    As a person with a dairy allergy with a wife who is allergic to gluten, it is nice to see these kinds of products out there. It shows that we are maturing as a society and are looking at new ways to deal with the limited resources we have.

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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    I'm fairly certain that we cannot call a company who sells plant-based patties unethical just because someone who is illiterate might be 'tricked' into believing the product to be real meat. If that were the bar for calling a business unethical, then any product that has writing on it could be considered unethical because it doesn't consider that an illiterate person might not be able to understand what they are consuming.
    Not unless that product deliberately tried to appear to be something it is not. As an example, fake crab leg meat commonly used in cheap buffet restaurants. Regardless what the tag might read, an illiterate person may be fooled enough not to realize it is fish. The same is true of something deliberately made to look like fresh hamburger meat, or pictures of what look like cooked hamburger on the packaging.

    ---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Like I said, I doubt that there would be a mistaken purchase in a given store once a month. That is my estimate and if you are going to say that my estimate is wrong, you will need to provide a different estimate and back it up with some kind of argument (as opposed to just questioning my argument).
    I believe I gave my estimate with support. You have your estimate and I have mine. I don't need to do something just because you demand it.

    ---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Fake burger is packaged as separate patties so right there, there is indeed an identifiable difference between regular ground beef and fake beef.
    You've never seen hamburger sold as a patty? And you think all fake meat must be sold as a patty? really?
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  16. #36
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Not unless that product deliberately tried to appear to be something it is not. As an example, fake crab leg meat commonly used in cheap buffet restaurants. Regardless what the tag might read, an illiterate person may be fooled enough not to realize it is fish. The same is true of something deliberately made to look like fresh hamburger meat, or pictures of what look like cooked hamburger on the packaging.
    But if it's more expensive than the thing that it resembles, people are going to buy the real thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I believe I gave my estimate with support. You have your estimate and I have mine. I don't need to do something just because you demand it.
    I believe you did not support your estimate. If you are going to claim your estimate is supported, then either provide the prior support that you gave or offer up fresh support.

    I have given a solid logical argument for why I think the instance would be under 1 a month. And you don't need to challenge my argument if you don't want to. I'm happy to let my arguments stand unchallenged.

    So you let it stand that it mistaken sales would be less than one a month or you can challenge that assertion. Your choice.
    Last edited by mican333; September 5th, 2018 at 08:00 AM.

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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Not unless that product deliberately tried to appear to be something it is not. As an example, fake crab leg meat commonly used in cheap buffet restaurants. Regardless what the tag might read, an illiterate person may be fooled enough not to realize it is fish. The same is true of something deliberately made to look like fresh hamburger meat, or pictures of what look like cooked hamburger on the packaging.
    Unless you watched the butcher grind the parts of the animal, do you really know that a prepackaged container contains ground chuck? Do you know for certain that it's meat from the chuck? Do you know for certain that it's only meat from a cow? Again, if you set the bar at illiteracy, then any product could be construed as a deliberate attempt at trying to appear something it is not.

    The product states on its front, in large, green print, that it is plant-based. You can't miss it. Ignoring the plight of the illiterate--which is a ridiculous bar to set--the fault is on the consumer if they purchase the product and ignore the higher cost and clear labels on the front.

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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    How many are "all those people"? Did that restaurant run out because they have a big recurring demand or because they had a limited starter supply of fake meat to test customer response? You don't really know, do you?
    How many is irrelevant, since the point here is that it would be impossible for someone to get tricked into buying fake meat at a restaurant which has it clearly indicated on their menu as a new item different from the regular ones. Even if they had a massive supply lasting a long time, it strains credibility to the extreme to think that, during that time, someone could get tricked into buying it thinking it was real meat.

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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But if it's more expensive than the thing that it resembles, people are going to buy the real thing.
    Some people buy higher priced items because they think higher price means better quality. So if two packages of "meat" are displayed side by side, some people WILL by the higher priced item:

    "Premium pricing (also called image pricing or prestige pricing) is the practice of keeping the price of a product or service artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers, based solely on the price.[1] Premium refers to a segment of a company's brands, products, or services that carry tangible or imaginary surplus value in the upper mid- to high price range.[2][3]The practice is intended to exploit the tendency for buyers to assume that expensive items enjoy an exceptional reputation or represent exceptional quality and distinction. A premium pricing strategy involves setting the price of a product higher than similar products. This strategy is sometimes also called skim pricing because it is an attempt to “skim the cream” off the top of the market. It is used to maximize profit in areas where customers are happy to pay more, where there are no substitutes for the product, where there are barriers to entering the market or when the seller cannot save on costs by producing at a high volume.

    Luxury has a psychological association with premium pricing. The implication for marketing is that consumers are willing to pay more for certain goods and not for others. To the marketer, it means creating a brand equity or value for which the consumer is willing to pay extra. Marketers view luxury as the main factor differentiating a brand in a product category." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_pricing

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I have given a solid logical argument for why I think the instance would be under 1 a month.
    You've offered unsupported, illogical opinions, and have demonstrated that you have zero knowledge of relevant packaging, marketing and pricing strategies.

    ---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by futureboy View Post
    How many is irrelevant, since the point here is that it would be impossible for someone to get tricked into buying fake meat at a restaurant which has it clearly indicated on their menu as a new item different from the regular ones. Even if they had a massive supply lasting a long time, it strains credibility to the extreme to think that, during that time, someone could get tricked into buying it thinking it was real meat.
    There are lots of illiterate and low IQ people out there. Do you have any idea of the number of adults with IQ<100? Half. Below 85? Lot of people you'd consider "slow". Let's just talk about those below 80. 6.4% of adults have IQ < 80 and are "cognitively impaired". Do you think those people will know the difference between fake hamburger and real hamburger if displayed side by side in the meat section? Then consider that 20% of adults are functionallyi illiterate.

    ---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    The product states on its front, in large, green print, that it is plant-based. You can't miss it. Ignoring the plight of the illiterate--which is a ridiculous bar to set--the fault is on the consumer if they purchase the product and ignore the higher cost and clear labels on the front.
    See above. The same applies here.
    Last edited by evensaul; September 8th, 2018 at 07:42 PM.
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There are lots of illiterate and low IQ people out there. Do you have any idea of the number of adults with IQ<100? Half. Below 85? Lot of people you'd consider "slow". Let's just talk about those below 80. 6.4% of adults have IQ < 80 and are "cognitively impaired". Do you think those people will know the difference between fake hamburger and real hamburger if displayed side by side in the meat section? Then consider that 20% of adults are functionally illiterate.
    My statement was about how it strains credibility to think that, during the entire time that the Beyond burger was offered at A&W and subsequently sold out, there would be any confusion about the new menu item. This proves that there is actual demand for the product, which is what the companies producing it are targeting, and that they're not trying to make money off tricking people.

 

 
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  5. What if someone found out we're, well... meat?
    By Zhavric in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: January 25th, 2007, 07:47 AM

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