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Thread: Fake Meat

  1. #21
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Mican, the website in the op includes the following: "The revolutionary plant-based burger that looks, cooks and satisfies like beef."

    Why is it important to look like beef at every step of packaging, cooking and eating?
    Because it makes the product more appealing to consumers who want an approximation of cooking and consuming a real hamburger.

    The goal is to sell the things, after all.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 08:32 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Right, it is a “fake burger” as you described it before modifying your post. And it only looks like hamburger before or after cooking because it is made with beet juice added to look like hamburger. Its a total fraud.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Right, it is a “fake burger” as you described it before modifying your post. And it only looks like hamburger before or after cooking because it is made with beet juice added to look like hamburger. Its a total fraud.
    "Fraud" typically means that there is a deception and I see no deception here.

    The coloring is certainly part of the process to make what's not beef to look like beef but the consumer obviously knows that it's not-beef that looks like beef and the producers don't try to trick them into thinking otherwise. It's certainly not "Fraud" in the legal sense of the word.


    I honestly don't know what there is to complain about. Someone makes a product that people want to buy and people, knowing what it is, buy it and enjoy it. The market at work. No one is getting ripped off and no one is getting hurt.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "Fraud" typically means that there is a deception and I see no deception here.
    I started this thread believing the only deception was by the buyers trying to fool themselves into thinking they were eating meat. But now I'm not so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    The coloring is certainly part of the process to make what's not beef to look like beef but the consumer obviously knows that it's not-beef that looks like beef and the producers don't try to trick them into thinking otherwise. It's certainly not "Fraud" in the legal sense of the word. I honestly don't know what there is to complain about. Someone makes a product that people want to buy and people, knowing what it is, buy it and enjoy it. The market at work. No one is getting ripped off and no one is getting hurt.
    What about the estimated 20% of adults who cannot read English? And why is it so important to have their product in the meat aisle, where those who can't read can become confused enough by the packaging ad appearance to buy what they think is meat, but isn't? http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view...ry-chainkroger Why call it "meat" and make it look like hamburger when it isn't, if not to deceive the gullible to get extra sales? Do you really believe that NO ONE is confused and getting ripped off?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What about the estimated 20% of adults who cannot read English? And why is it so important to have their product in the meat aisle, where those who can't read can become confused enough by the packaging ad appearance to buy what they think is meat, but isn't? http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view...ry-chainkroger Why call it "meat" and make it look like hamburger when it isn't, if not to deceive the gullible to get extra sales?
    I've answered that question already but I guess I can answer it again.

    People who buy fake meat want as much of the experience of preparing and eating meat without some of the downsides that come with purchasing and ingesting actual meat. So the more the fake meat appears to be like real meat, the more desirable it is to the people who want to have fake meat. So that would be a good reason to make fake meat as close to real meat as possible.

    And a product is placed where it is most likely to be seen by those who the sellers want to buy their product so it makes sense to place fake meat near real meat since the target consumer are those who desire real meat. The thinking probably goes that someone is looking for real meat but when they see the fake meat that looks like it might be nearly as good as real meat, the consumer will consider trying out the healthier alternative.

    Also, assuming it needs to be refrigerated, it will have to go into one of the refrigerated areas of the store and the most logical place is with the meat.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you really believe that NO ONE is confused and getting ripped off?
    I don't know if zero percent of the people ever get confused but I very much doubt that the fake meat is placed there because they figure that they will make a lot of money by people buying their product by mistake (especially since one can probably return it for a refund if they do buy it by mistake). So if the "mistake purchase" is their strategy for placing their product there, it's such a dumb strategy that I really doubt they would employ it. So I think the reasoning for placing it there is something else, like what I explained above. And "rip off" does include an intent to deceive. I see no valid reason to think that there is any intentional deception going on and therefore I don't think there is any rip-off.
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2018 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't know if zero percent of the people ever get confused but I very much doubt that the fake meat is placed there because they figure that they will make a lot of money by people buying their product by mistake (especially since one can probably return it for a refund if they do buy it by mistake). So if the "mistake purchase" is their strategy for placing their product there, it's such a dumb strategy that I really doubt they would employ it. So I think the reasoning for placing it there is something else, like what I explained above. And "rip off" does include an intent to deceive. I see no valid reason to think that there is any intentional deception going on and therefore I don't think there is any rip-off.
    I don't think you understand the economics and marketing of food production, distribution and point of purchase anywhere near enough to support the above claims. But if you do, then please provide some real analysis.

    Let's do some math: If fake meat sales increased by just two packages per day in "more than 3200 grocery stores nationwide" due to consumer confusion (caused by location in meat aisle, using "meat" in the brand name", misleading appearance, illiteracy) that would be 6400 extra units sold per day, or 2,3336,000 units per year.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #27
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I don't think you understand the economics and marketing of food production, distribution and point of purchase anywhere near enough to support the above claims. But if you do, then please provide some real analysis.
    I will provide the same amount of analysis for my counter-argument as has been presented for the argument that I'm addressing.

    So once you provide some real analysis to support your assertion that fake meat is an intentional scam, I will concern myself with countering that argument with a similar level of analysis.

    But so far you are just basing your argument on your own best understanding of the issue so likewise I am using my best understanding of the issue for my counter-argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Let's do some math: If fake meat sales increased by just two packages per day in "more than 3200 grocery stores nationwide" due to consumer confusion (caused by location in meat aisle, using "meat" in the brand name", misleading appearance, illiteracy) that would be 6400 extra units sold per day, or 2,3336,000 units per year.
    And you think that that is what will happen (an average of two additional units will be sold per store per day). I think that that would not happen. Even if two units are sold in a day by mistake, I think that a significant number would be returned thus negating some of the initial sales.

    And what I'm sure would happen is that most of the people who bought the wrong product by mistake would not purchase it again. So eventually mistake purchases would cease as people would not repeat their errors.

  8. #28
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So once you provide some real analysis to support your assertion that fake meat is an intentional scam,
    I will rephrase for clarity: It is not an intentional scam or fraud by the producer of the product, but I'm sure they are all too happy to allow confusion by the customers in order to increase incremental sales. That would just be a profitable and legal, albeit unethical, business decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And you think that that is what will happen (an average of two additional units will be sold per store per day).
    No, I think it would likely average closer to 5 per day. There are a lot of illiterate people out there, and a lot more who don't read carefully. I dropped down to 2 so as not to seem pushing an extreme number.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Even if two units are sold in a day by mistake, I think that a significant number would be returned thus negating some of the initial sales. And what I'm sure would happen is that most of the people who bought the wrong product by mistake would not purchase it again. So eventually mistake purchases would cease as people would not repeat their errors.
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #29
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I will rephrase for clarity: It is not an intentional scam or fraud by the producer of the product, but I'm sure they are all too happy to allow confusion by the customers in order to increase incremental sales. That would just be a profitable and legal, albeit unethical, business decision.
    But that definitely does not qualify as fraud. If one is not seeking to cheat someone, then they aren't committing fraud even if they are happy about an unexpected side effect which doesn't benefit the customer.

    And whether one would be happy about such a mistake would probably vary from person to person. You seem to be arguing from the premise that all business men are greedy and unethical. I certainly won't contest that some are exactly that but I wouldn't say that about each and every one of them and therefore can't say whether the makers of this product would be happy if they unintentionally disadvantaged a customer.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    No, I think it would likely average closer to 5 per day. There are a lot of illiterate people out there, and a lot more who don't read carefully. I dropped down to 2 so as not to seem pushing an extreme number.
    I doubt it even happens once a month. In support:

    I assume you will agree that illiterate people are likely to be poor. And fake meat is more expensive than the least expensive ground beef (I looked it up). So the scenario of a poor, illiterate person going to the store to buy real inexpensive ground beef, seeing an unfamiliar and more expensive product that he MIGHT mistake for ground beef (he might figure it's not real ground beef even if he can't read the label) and deciding to buy the more expensive product instead of his usual ground beef seems extremely unlikely. IF it happens at all, it would happen very infrequently.

    And in fact, the producers of fake beef will likely know that people are very unlikely to buy their product by mistake due to it being more expensive than real beef and therefore aren't rubbing their hands with glee over the thought of suckering people into buying their product by mistake. They would likely figure that such an event would be a very rare occasion.


    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    But no one has been successful at making fake beef that tastes just like real beef. Therefore, if one buys fake beef by mistake, they might return it and they would not buy it again if they want real beef.
    Last edited by mican333; July 31st, 2018 at 08:23 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Fake Meat

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If the manufacturer is successful at making the product look like hamburger, cook like hamburger, and taste like hamburger, why would there be returns? If it is a good imitation of hamburger, why are you sure people mistakenly buying it won't buy it again?
    If that is the case then what is the issue?
    If people bought something on accident, but liked it better than what they had intended to purchase, and they purchased it again on purpose, I see no issue at all. It could even be healthier choice depending.

    I agree that it seems stupid, but consumers will really decide this and so far the consumer is ok with fake meat or it wouldn't be so readily available.

    At least they aren't trying to just change the meaning of "meat" like has been done with human gender or "gay marriage". After all, since it is still "meat" they could be fighting to just call it "meat" or "hamburger" or "crab" and leave the imitation label off altogether.
    Since the producer "feels it's real crab" it IS real crab ha know! In the last decade or so, how you "feel" about a subject means much more than anything else.
    Change the definition of "crab" or "meat" and there are no longer any issues that I can see

 

 
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