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  1. #1
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    Does Putin Have Something On...

    Does Putin have something on Obama?

    President Obama knew about Russian meddling prior to the 2016 election, but did nothing about it. Oh, he claims he wagged his finger during a summit and told Putin to "Cut it out", but took no other action. Why not? Was it because he expected Hillary to win anyway? Or was it because Putin had something on Obama? It wasn't until after the election, when Clinton lost, that he started talking about Russian actions publicly. Seems to me that he was a puppet to Putin.

    Did Obama ever stand up to Russia on any major issue during eight years in office? Over Syria? No. Over Russian aggression in eastern Europe? No. He was really ineffectual, and I think probably because Putin had some dirt on him.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    LOL

    Obama didn't want to appear to be trying to swing the election by creating publicity around the accusation that the Russians were interfering int he election, and he didn't want to create the appearance that the elections were not legitimate. Basically, he was being very responsible in trying not to rock the political waters at that time in a way that would be seen as using his presidental power to manipulate the elections.

    They did begin the investigations into Russia at that time, and those are the same investigations we have now, just with a special counsel because Trump appeared to be trying to shut down the regular investigations that were underway.

    Obama certainly spoke out in all those instances, on Syria, and in Ukraine. Short of engaging in military conflict, there really isn't much he could have done about their actions. And engaging in military conflict with Russia just isn't worth the cost to impact Syria or Ukraine.

    Obama instituted sanctions and financial asset actions against Russia and Russian operatives on 6 occasions during his presidency.
    https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  4. #3
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Epic Fail evensaul, you must have gotten your deflection orders. Trump is probably a Russian asset and may even have been since his first trip there in 1987:

    "During the Soviet era, Russian intelligence cast a wide net to gain leverage over influential figures abroad. (The practice continues to this day.) The Russians would lure or entrap not only prominent politicians and cultural leaders, but also people whom they saw as having the potential for gaining prominence in the future. In 1986, Soviet ambassador Yuri Dubinin met Trump in New York, flattered him with praise for his building exploits, and invited him to discuss a building in Moscow. Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)

    How do you even think about the small but real chance that the president of the United States has been influenced or compromised by a hostile foreign power for decades?
    Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”"

    Is it wise to go ahead with a potentially compromised president? I can't imagine that the numerous meetings (not just the ones we know about) he and his family members had weren't recorded by the operatives and Junior, especially, saying something stupid.

    and if this had been a democrat, hee-haw, they wouldn't be let back in the country.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #4
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Cowboy, your entire post is a Red Herring fallacy:

    Red Herring

    Ignoratio elenchi

    (also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation)

    Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.

    Logical Form:

    Argument A is presented by person 1.

    Person 2 introduces argument B.

    Argument A is abandoned.

    Example #1:

    Mike: It is morally wrong to cheat on your spouse, why on earth would you have done that?

    Ken: But what is morality exactly?

    Mike: It’s a code of conduct shared by cultures.

    Ken: But who creates this code?...

    Explanation: Ken has successfully derailed this conversation off of his sexual digressions to the deep, existential, discussion on morality.

    Example #2:

    Billy: How could the universe be 6000 years old when we know the speed of light, the distance of astronomical objects (13+ billion light years away), and the fact that the light has reached us[1]?

    Marty: 6000 years is not a firm number. The universe can be as old as about 10,000 years.

    Billy: How do you figure that?...

    Explanation: Marty has succeeded in avoiding the devastating question by introducing a new topic for debate... shifting the young-earth creation timeline where it does not necessarily coincide with the Bible.

    Exception: Using a red herring to divert attention away from your opponent's red herring, might work, but do two wrongs make a right?

    Tip: Impress your friends by telling them that there is no such fish species as a "red herring;" rather it refers to a particularly pungent fish—typically a herring but not always—that has been strongly cured in brine and/or heavily smoked.

    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...50/Red-Herring

    You should know this by now, Cowboy. Please keep your posts on topic.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #5
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Does Putin have something on Obama?

    President Obama knew about Russian meddling prior to the 2016 election, but did nothing about it. Oh, he claims he wagged his finger during a summit and told Putin to "Cut it out", but took no other action. Why not? Was it because he expected Hillary to win anyway? Or was it because Putin had something on Obama? It wasn't until after the election, when Clinton lost, that he started talking about Russian actions publicly. Seems to me that he was a puppet to Putin.

    Did Obama ever stand up to Russia on any major issue during eight years in office? Over Syria? No. Over Russian aggression in eastern Europe? No. He was really ineffectual, and I think probably because Putin had some dirt on him.
    Seems like God of Gaps reasoning to me. What I saw during the eight years of the Obama Presidency, was a good man with a good family. Sure, he made missteps and wasn't as aggressive as he perhaps should have been in some areas, but he listened to his advisers and to history.

    I see zero evidence from this post or otherwise to make the conclusion that Putin/Russia or any other entity for that matter, had some kind of leverage over the Obamas. The only thing I see is an attempt to disparage and belittle someone because there is a disagreement with his ideology.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

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  8. #6
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Obama didn't want to appear to be trying to swing the election by creating publicity around the accusation that the Russians were interfering int he election, and he didn't want to create the appearance that the elections were not legitimate. Basically, he was being very responsible in trying not to rock the political waters at that time in a way that would be seen as using his presidental power to manipulate the elections.
    That's your opinion. I think the facts show that Obama was scared of what Putin had on him. Throughout his eight years, he did very little of substance to dissuade Russian military and cyber warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Obama certainly spoke out in all those instances, on Syria, and in Ukraine. Short of engaging in military conflict, there really isn't much he could have done about their actions. And engaging in military conflict with Russia just isn't worth the cost to impact Syria or Ukraine.
    Words are usually pretty worthless. When Obama had the chance to render real military aid to Ukraine in response to Russian aggression, what did he do? He sent blankets and socks. Whoa, now there's a strong deterrent!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Obama instituted sanctions and financial asset actions against Russia and Russian operatives on 6 occasions during his presidency.
    https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/
    Minor wrist slapping, to make it look like Obama was actually doing something effective. It was just for show, and Putin didn't expect anything more:
    "When he moved into Ukraine, I do believe he felt as though, if he did it with great emphasis and force, that it was not going to engender a military response on the part of the West. I do think he felt that, certainly toward the last four years of the Obama administration, that there was a predictability as far as Washington’s reaction, and I think he recognized that President Obama was reluctant to engage in military conflicts, and therefore, would use other instruments of U.S. power—sanctions, for example,” John Brennan told PBS Frontline.

    There is a reason for Obama being predictable to Putin. It was understood by Obama not to push too far against Russia, no matter what Putin did. Or there would be serious personal consequences. Did Putin have a copy of Obama's college application, on which he claimed to be born in Kenya? Or something else?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #7
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think the facts show that Obama was scared of what Putin had on him.
    You have provided zero evidence that Putin had anything on him. You are simply speculating.

    Throughout his eight years, he did very little of substance to dissuade Russian military and cyber warfare.
    You have not provided any evidence to substantiate such a claim. And it's not that Obama couldn't multitask, but he had bigger problems at home during the beginning of his first term, like ending a Recession.

    Words are usually pretty worthless. When Obama had the chance to render real military aid to Ukraine in response to Russian aggression, what did he do? He sent blankets and socks. Whoa, now there's a strong deterrent!
    The Obama Administration sent defensive capabilities to Ukraine as well as troops to help train the Ukraine military. That's a bit more the "blankets and socks."

    There is a reason for Obama being predictable to Putin. It was understood by Obama not to push too far against Russia, no matter what Putin did. Or there would be serious personal consequences. Did Putin have a copy of Obama's college application, on which he claimed to be born in Kenya? Or something else?
    Again, pure fantasy. If Obama was so weak and predictable, why didn't Russia invade and annex more countries. The fact of the matter is that Crimea, since the 1992, has had an unstable relationship with Ukraine. In 2006, Crimea declared itself a NATO-free zone after US Marines arrived there for NATO training exercises. Jump to 2014 where Crimea was primed for the Russian annexation. No one really did anything to stop it, including the Ukraine.

    Fast forward to today, and the Ukraine is nearly a member of the EU and they already have visa-free travel across borders and are being integrated in the EU markets. Had Obama sent in offensive military in that area and escalated the conflict, there most likely would have been a different outcome.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

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  11. #8
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    Re: Does Putin Have Something On...

    Russia and Ukraine Sanctions, Department of the Treasury
    Ukraine/Russia Related Executive Orders

    "03/06/14: Executive Order 13660; Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine
    03/17/14: Executive Order 13661; Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine
    03/20/14: Executive Order 13662; “Blocking Property of Additional Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine
    12/19/14: Executive Order 13685; Blocking Property of Certain Persons and Prohibiting Certain
    Transactions With Respect to the Crimea Region of Ukraine
    Cyber-Related Executive Orders

    04/01/15: Executive Order 13694; Blocking the Property of Certain Persons Engaging in Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities
    12/28/16: Executive Order 13757; Taking Additional Steps to Address the National Emergency with Respect to Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities {Amends E.O. 13694)
    For a full list of cyber sanctions, please click here.

    Executive Order 13660, signed on March 6, 2014, authorizes sanctions on individuals and entities responsible for violating the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, or for stealing the assets of the Ukrainian people. These sanctions put in place restrictions on the travel of certain individuals and officials and showed our continued efforts to impose a cost on Russia and those responsible for the situation in Crimea.

    Executive Order 13661, issued on March 17, 2014, under the national emergency with respect to Ukraine that find that the actions and policies of the Russian government with respect to Ukraine -– including through the deployment of Russian military forces in the Crimea region of Ukraine –- undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets.

    A new Executive Order, "Blocking Property of Additional Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine," issued on March 20, 2014, expanded the scope of the national emergency declared in Executive Order 13660 of March 6, 2014, and expanded by Executive Order 13661 of March 16, 2014, finding that the actions and policies of the Government of the Russian Federation, including its purported annexation of Crimea and its use of force in Ukraine, continue to undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets, and thereby constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.

    Executive Order 13685 was issued December 19, 2014. Utilizing these Executive Orders, the United States has steadily increased the diplomatic and financial costs of Russia’s aggressive actions towards Ukraine. We have designated a number of Russian and Ukrainian entities, including 14 defense companies and individuals in Putin’s inner circle, as well as imposed targeted sanctions limiting certain financing to six of Russia’s largest banks and four energy companies. We have also suspended credit finance that encourages exports to Russia and financing for economic development projects in Russia, and are now prohibiting the provision, exportation, or re-exportation of goods, services (not including financial services), or technology in support of exploration or production for deepwater, Arctic offshore, or shale projects that have the potential to produce oil in the Russian Federation, or in maritime area claimed by the Russian Federation and extending from its territory, and that involve five major Russian energy companies.

    These actions, in close coordination with our EU and international partners, send a strong message to the Russian government that there are consequences for their actions that threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. The United States, together with international partners, will continue to stand by the Ukrainian government until Russia abides by its international obligations. The United States is prepared to take additional steps to impose further political and economic costs. A secure Ukraine, integrated with Europe and enjoying good relations with all its neighbors, is in the interests of the United States, Europe, and Russia.

    Executive Order 13694 was issued on April 1, 2015 and authorized the imposition of sanctions on individuals and entities determined to be responsible for or complicit in malicious cyber-enabled activities that result in enumerated harms that are reasonably likely to result in, or have materially contributed to, a significant threat to the national security, foreign policy, or economic health or financial stability of the United States. The authority has been amended to also allow for the imposition of sanctions on individuals and entities determined to be responsible for tampering, altering, or causing the misappropriation of information with the purpose or effect of interfering with or undermining election processes or institutions in E.O. 13757.

    Executive Order 13757 issued on December 28, 2016, amends EO 13694. E.O. 13757 focuses on specific harms caused by significant malicious cyber-enabled activities, and directs the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of State, to impose sanctions on those persons he determines to be responsible for or complicit in activities leading to such harms. The U.S. Department of State and other U.S. government agencies work to identify individuals and entities whose conduct meets the criteria set forth in E.O. 13694, as amended, and designate them for sanction under the delegated authority of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC). Persons designated under this authority are added to OFACS’s list of Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons (SDN List).


    04/03/14: H.R. 4152: Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014
    04/03/14: S. 2183: United States International Programming to Ukraine and Neighboring Regions
    10/28/77: International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA), 50 U.S.C. 1701-1706
    09/14/76: National Emergencies Act (NEA), 50 U.S.C. 1601-1651"




    "on which he claimed to be born in Kenya" support or retract {challenge thingy}
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